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Author Topic: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods  (Read 220631 times)

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2008, 04:06:35 PM »

Offline dutchy1966

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2008, 05:16:28 PM »


If I were to use a spiral coil mounted to a board, it should not be able to create any noticeable magnetic drag in opposition to a rotating magnet, since the copper wire will not be able to create much a magnetic field. It has very little induction right? The question now remains, can you induce very much current into a spiral coil winding using rotating magnets?

I hope I'm not WAY off track, lol.



Hi Supermuble and all,

I see exactly what you are picturing in your head. As a matter of fact I've been wondering the same thing many times. You can even image "sweeping" the pancake coil with a N pole from the front and a S pole from the back at the same time.... Don't know if that would improve it further.

The question is: will the motor driving the magnet(s) really see no load? Will making it spin faster increase efficiency of the whole thing to a point where there is more current induced in the pancake coil(s) than the motor consumes?

I have never tried this for the simple reason that it sounds too simple to be true. If this thing would be able to go overunity, someone would have done it long time ago. Or am i wrong?

regards

Dutchy


Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2008, 05:45:27 PM »
Ya'll want to know what 'Zero-Point' really is?

Zero-Point is speculating on what something may do when you base your visualizations upon work done by someone else. The thought of no magnetism because there is no inductive reactance AND the coil having little or no inductive reactance without winding one and testing yourself is Zero-Point.

The term 'planar' was used. Since there is no induction then something like a planar transformer is ridiculous, right?

Tell that to a credit card company or most governments. If they believe you then a lot of credit cards and passports should be recalled.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2008, 05:45:27 PM »
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Offline tao

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2008, 05:47:36 PM »
I see three ways to interact with Lenz and his Law:
1. It is there in its full glory, lets not forget all the devices that we use everyday that use this Law.
2. You effectively disable it, and hence take it out of the equation, in ways similar to BEP stated, among others.
3. You sit down and have a talk with Lenz and he decides to help you, thereby reversing his Law just for you because you were so nice to him :P

I am quite sure, that out of the three, you guys might want to know more about number 3? Or are you thinking it is just a joke?

Let me just give a quick example of how this can be done, and has been done, perhaps unknowingly in many devices, heh.

1. Ok, take a simple low remanence core and wind two coils on it. Call one a power coil, and the other the pickup coil. Both coils should be OPEN.
2. Have a rotor with magnets on it's outer edge. Spin the rotor slightly.
3. Now, what will happen? The nearest magnet on the rotor is going to be highly attracted to the low remanence core material and provide you with essentially free motive power.
4. When that magnet gets at just about TDC to your low remanence core/coils, you fire a pulse into your power coil. This pulse should create a magnetic field that 'zeroes out' the magnetic field from that magnet on the rotor such that the magnet on the rotor doesn't 'see' the low remanence core anymore. Leave the pickup coil OPEN at this time, so there is no Lenz effect from coil to coil.
5. The magnet on the rotor now maintains its momentum and continues around and easily passes TDC. Another thing to remember is, the magnetic field of the rotor magnet is no longer in the low remanence core, it is bend away from the low remanence core because of the pulse from the power coil.
6. So, it is at this moment that the next key thing happens. The power pulse shuts off abrubtly, re-OPEN-ing the power coil. At this same instant, or slightly before, the pickup coil is CLOSED, preferably with a load of some sorts.
7. What happens when that power pulse shuts off? Well, lets look at the situation. We have the rotor's MAGNET moving AWAY from the low remanence core and we have that rotor's magnet's FIELD moving TOWARD the low remanence core. Did you get that? The physical magnet is moving away from the core and WITH MOMENTUM and the magnet's FIELD is moving TOWARD the low remanence core. Remember, the rotor magnet's FIELD was bend and expelled from the low remanence core during the power pulse, so, now that the power pulse is gone, the FIELD is trying to move TOWARD the low remanence core.
8. What happens now? Well Lenz's Law happens! But, this time Lenz helps us. The FIELD enters the low remanence core, and since the pickup coil is CLOSED, Lenz's Law will kick in and the pickup coil will create current flow in the pickup coil and the magnetic field that results from that current flow will OPPOSE the INCOMING FIELD from the rotor's magnet. Did you just see what happened?
9. What happens then is this, the rotor's magnet is moving along with it's built up momentum, and it's field tries to get back into the low remanence core, but Lenz's Law kicks in within the pickup coil and opposes the rotor magnet's field. So, this means that the rotor's magnet will be PUSHED AWAY from the low remanence core BY LENZ'S LAW that is occurring in the pickup coil, this means that the momentum and speed of the rotor and it's magnet WILL INCREASE, and at the same time that is happening, we have POWER FLOWING INTO the pickup coil, all thanks to Lenz's Law.
10. More later, if so desired...

Thanks Lenz...

With proper geometry and design, you CAN have Lenz's Law WORK FOR YOU! It is possible.You might have to 'pay for a single pulse' (and this in many setups might make everything under unity), BUT the fact remains, you CAN make Lenz's Law HELP YOU...

Peace guys...

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2008, 08:02:36 PM »
Hi Tao,

Very interesting idea, thanks for sharing it.

I assume the flyback pulse received across the power coil after the pulse switch-off could also be collected and used for reducing the input power, right?

If you have already thought of what the proper geometry is the most beneficial I would be curious to know (in case  you can share it of course).

Thanks again,
Gyula

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2008, 08:02:36 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2008, 08:08:26 PM »
Maybe it's just me but do people really understand magnetic induction to a fundamental degree. I'm struggling real hard with it. I keep ending up in loops thinking of how all the things that involves magnetic induction.

A coil that is being powered makes a magnetic field at the same time this field is then being held back by an induced and making things even complex by having a PM move by. Trying to simulate it in your head can lead to madness.

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2008, 08:40:09 PM »
BEP, you sound upset? Yes, more people need to experiment, I agree. But personally I cannot experiment as much as I would like because money is always a limiting factor. Not everyone can afford to test everything without learning about it on paper first. It is simply too expensive to test every configuration while ruining rolls of wire that cost $35 each. Though, I do think that people who speculate WITHOUT ever once experimenting should be called ZERO-POINT because there is no point in them learning anything. Electrical engineers sometimes go their entire life without ever trying anything new. Now that is a waste!

I just made a spiral core. It responds like a Bedini-Cole window motor coil. You have to spin a rotating N/S magnet across the coil windings, and you get voltage (no measurable Lenz) since the core is only as thick as the wire itself. The spinning magnet cannot possibly see any magnetic drag with this configuration. The only unique problem is the way you have to cut a cross the windings. Ideally, you would need to wrap up the spiral core inside an alternator or something so the magnets can cut "across" the wires to create more current. Running the spinning magnet paralell (lengthwise) to the wires produces nearly no voltage or current. For example, according to my experiment, if you had a spinning magnetic wheel, it would not generate much power at all unless the magnets cut across the spiral coil at a 90 degree angle. That means, you would need a HUGE machine and it would not be practical. I think that is why if you roll up a spiral coil and put it into an alternator, you would have no Lenz drag, while having a much more compact unit, and the magnets would be cutting ACROSS the wires (not paralell).

So spiral cores are out. I don't think they would work for a practical small generator unless you can make the coil on a sheet of aluminum or plastic, roll it up into a cylinder, and stuff the entire thing inside an alternator (not really practical).

TAO, Great insight! You just described a Bedini motor, using Pulsed DC. I built one using a particle board rotor with 16 small 1" magnets. When the magnets approach the coil, they see no LENZ since the coil is shut completely off. When the magnet passes over the coil it kicks on, generating an opposing magnetic field, but only enough to allow the magnet to pass by.

The LUTEC motor uses this exact same principle, though with much different timing and components. I can't figure out how you can use Lenz law to cause acceleration while there is a current load on the coil? It sounds like it all comes down to the proper timing, and pulsing. If you pulse things in the correct manner, you avoid the opposing drag created by Lenz law. I need to ponder on these ideas more, because this concept is difficult for me to visualize.

Great insight!

Broli, you are right. Thinking about inductors and magnets is a never ending process. Our books explain some of it, but as Bearden said, our current models are not complete, hence our major curiosity and confusion.






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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2008, 08:40:09 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2008, 09:00:56 PM »
Here's more confusion.  Say instead of changing the core magnetic flux with a permanent magnet we get the core magnetic flux to respond to a wave propogation.
The wave travels on into the core the core mass vibrates in response to the wave and the coil puts out some amps but the wave has moved off at the speed of light and could care less about what slow motion reaction is going on back at the core.  Then the wave reflects and does it's thing again to the core.  The power is in the wave the energy is in the core atoms.  And the work is in the output coil.

Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2008, 09:43:10 PM »
'Upset'? Yes, it is frustrating. The most important differences of a spiral coil are the pole locations, the variation of current speed from one turn to the next, with some work you can make them resonate at unbelievable frequencies, they can be more capacitive than inductive, etc., etc.

Wrapping them inside a motor will likely be a bad move. Like said before - if you stretch them into a third dimension they start acting like common coil designs.

Avoiding Lenz is one of my best sidebars. I check back here during a break once in a while. This morning I came back and found before a good idea had been confirmed we were off theorizing the next step with bad assumptions from the first.

I should just go back to the bench and shut-up  ;)

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2008, 09:43:10 PM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2008, 09:49:07 PM »
Here's more confusion.  Say instead of changing the core magnetic flux with a permanent magnet we get the core magnetic flux to respond to a wave propogation.
The wave travels on into the core the core mass vibrates in response to the wave and the coil puts out some amps but the wave has moved off at the speed of light and could care less about what slow motion reaction is going on back at the core.  Then the wave reflects and does it's thing again to the core.  The power is in the wave the energy is in the core atoms.  And the work is in the output coil.

Nice idea but it requires a step that most here won't take....

Understanding a core, coil, or magnet are not the source of the magnetic flux. Until that happens they'll continue crashing into a closed door - repeatedly.

Enough... I'm going back to my bench now  ;D

Offline capthook

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2008, 10:11:15 PM »
tao - good post.

What you are describing is similar to the Adams motor design.  I think this type of design holds the highest promise for OU.

One thing you didn't include is the 'pre-charge' of the pulse coils.  As the magnet approaches, attracted to the core, the pulse windings begin 'pre-charging', resulting in a smaller input required from the source to power the pulse coil.
So in the whole process you get:
1. Free acceleration from the magnet to the core
2. Free 'precharge' of the pulse windings
3. Usable output from the generator windings
4. Usable output from the collapsing field of the pulse windings and the generator windings

5?  The portion I'm unsure of is the repulsion created by the core/generator windings you describe?

Have you observed/measured this?  More details?  So rather than seperate pulse/pickup coils you need to wind them in a bifilar wrap or one on top of the other for this effect?

There should be more work being done on the Adams motor theory IMO!  It's not a 'repulsion' motor, but rather more an 'attraction cancelling' motor with pickup coils.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2008, 10:11:15 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2008, 11:52:26 PM »
God this is getting me nowhere. The experiment on the first page or the one in this image...

(http://www.quarrying.org/dictionary/images/e/Electromagnetic-induction.gif)

Does not fully compute in my head. I think the confusion is because the fact that induction is actually a cascading effect. When a magnetic field is changed a current is induced such that the magnetic field created by this current opposes that changing field. This is Lenz's law as most of you know. But this keeps applying "infinitely".  Because the induced field is also changing so this again induces another field countering that one and this induces another counter field and so on... Stuff gets even more confusing when dealing with self induction.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2008, 01:21:14 AM »
Hi Tao,
Good explanation you got there, I know how hard it is to put a detailed process explanation onto a 'few' words.
You describe the Adams motor to a great extend am I right?

Anyway lets talk about your 'point 9'
I see what you are getting at. You consider the 'returing' field from the magnet after tdc as 'incoming/inbound' relative to the coil and in that respect will lenz indeed set up a repelling field. And accelerate the rotor motion. But... here is the point I wonder about. It is true that the field can be seen as 'inbound' but the physical magnet itself is in reality 'moving away' so along that line of thought lenz will 'eventually' set up an attracting field and restrict the magnets field from leaving again. Since the field of the magnet has to leave the core at some point...So it is a bit of a power struggle between the two modes. Wonder who wins? Any though on that?

Regards,
Steven

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2008, 07:02:39 AM »
BEP,-- why the frustration?  ???  If you are upset because we have some incorrect ideas, please help to correct those ideas. Don't just stand there, grab a shovel!  ;)

broli, I did also have trouble visualizing the flow of current, magnetism and opposing fields (Lenz's law). The things that happen in coils cannot be seen with our eyes, so obviously visualizing it can be tough. I felt that it was important for people to study this more. The study of induction seems to be more important than any other single thing. Because if you understand magnetic fields, you can build a machine of any shape, size or power that produces over-unity. Electronic circuits seem to be only 25% of the equation in free energy generators creating free energy, the rest deals with induction.

So, the easiest way to get a good understanding of induction is to simply grab a coil of wire and pass a magnet over it. You can see how the magnet charges the coil differently by using different angles and different movements of the magnet.

Maybe this will help. Imagine that any given coil of wire on a spool that has an open top and bottom, it wants to FIGHT the motion of ANY MOVING MAGNETIC field. Whether the magnetic field is another electromagnetic or moving magnet. This is what happens in a transformer when you load the secondary, it fights off the primary's magnetic field since causing a cancellation in the total magnetic flux in the core (less overall inductance) hence more current draw into the primary until the flux is built back up (yes it is a cascading effect, always continuously variable, up until too much load occurs and the wires burn up!). On an AC power outlet from the house, if you hook it to a big coil of wire on a metal core, it won't flow much current because of the inductance. Induction happens because the center core acts like a moving magnet, moving on and off.

Faraday's law of induction (please find a very simple explanation of it without any math, and read it if you haven't lately). It says that the way to induce current into a coil is to have changing magnetic fields. You technically just need to have a "change" and no real physical motion. So when the magnet leaves the core, the center of the coil changes by losing its magnetism, this change creates current according to the Faraday law.

If you are still confused, there is one very easy thing to do. Take a roller skate wheel and build a Bedini motor. It takes 25 minutes to build from start to finish. When the motor runs it produces a sharp back EMF voltage that shocks you. If you touch the wire with wet fingers, you will get shocked. I've shocked myself with every possible method I can imagine and it has helped the learning curve dramatically. We are talking about very low amperage, nothing dangerous! I don't grab onto 120v household wires. I learned about inductors by shocking myself with about 5 different coils and configurations. The worst shocks occur when you add inductors in series with pulsed DC. It creates the highest voltage. What is very strange is that back EMF spikes are stronger than the original voltage that created them. With a single coil (not a transformer) you get 10 times multiplication out of a small 450 turn coil with 24 gauge wire. Up until a couple months ago, I thought it was impossible to step up power without a transformer, but it is possible - and you can feel it when you shock yourself!  :P.

Tesla shocked himself to learn. Let us learn from the best. Ha ha!





Offline gyulasun

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2008, 10:52:38 AM »
...snip
 Up until a couple months ago, I thought it was impossible to step up power without a transformer, but it is possible - and you can feel it when you shock yourself!  :P.
...snip

Hi,

May I kindly notice for you that it is STILL impossible to step up power with a transformer, unfortunately.
What you can feel when you shock yourself is the flyback voltage pulse which can indeed be higher even 10 times than the voltage you fed into the coil.  It is the higher intensity or the higher peak amplitude of the pulse received after the switch-off  which stings you.
But this is a voltage pulse and you cannnot call it power (nor energy), ok?  You can study flyback pulse when googling for flyback transformers for instance. 

rgds,  Gyula

 

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