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Author Topic: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods  (Read 220629 times)

Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2008, 12:23:09 PM »
Lenz's Law is one consequence of the principle of conservation of energy. It is also a 'one size fits all' law.

It proves well with single loops of wire and solenoid coils. It does not prove well with flat spiral coils.

Unlike single loops and solenoid coils the flat spiral coil magnetic polarity is radial - not axial.

I don't purchase 'one size fits all' clothing either.

BEP

P.S.

I believe Thane's work is like driving your car with a hole in the gas tank for years and then plugging the hole to find your mileage increased. You can't defy Lenz's law but you can remove it from the equation.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2008, 12:23:09 PM »

Offline broli

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 03:19:27 PM »
So BEP removing Lenz from the equation is not defying the law?  That's also an intresting point you brought up about spiral coils. I don't believe I've seen any motor using spiral cores before. Hmm brings up food for the brain.

Offline sparks

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 03:37:48 PM »
     A flyback transformer with a ballasted primary seems to run with gain as  it controls the core reluctance and retainance to very efficient levels.  Some force is  changing the core saturation parmeters back to status quo.  The forward current from the horizontal output transistor comes in at 15khz and produces heat from the voltage drop in the horizontal output transistor.  Then we drop some more voltage through a bank of leds and finally we drop the rest of the voltage with core saturation change.  Then the sawtooth wave goes into transition and the saturated core goes back to status quo real fast producing a kick voltage up to 27kv.  This voltage is not at the expense of the input current it is produced by core magnetism resetting to the ambient magnetic field parameters.  The faster the better.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 03:37:48 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 07:25:28 PM »
OK, I wanted to chime in here because this subject if touching on some aspects of designs I am currently looking ot design.

What I want to know regarding Lenz's Law is the relationship of this Law to the BEMF or CEMF (NOT FLYBACK if you know the difference) also known as DRAG, not of an electric motor but on an electric  generator. This DRAG increases as the generator load is increased. Is this what you are talking about. If so, I have some ideas, but I wanted to now before anything else if Lenz's law is responsible for the drag on a motor. If someone can answer this question, I will then post how I see this. Otherwise, if this is not related, then I will simply say sorry for an off topic post.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 11:12:58 PM »
In my book bemf/cemf and Lenz is the same thing.

To quote:
'The counter-electromotive force is the voltage, or electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it. CEMF is caused by a changing electromagnetic field. It is represented by Lenz's Law of electromagnetism.'

Steven

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 11:12:58 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2008, 11:37:09 PM »
Hi Steven,

Yes, in the meantime I also realized that practically they can be considered the same effect.

Thanks for this notice.

Gyula

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2008, 11:43:29 PM »
Just to clarify, Lenz law is indeed a factual law. It is a fact of all magnetic machines. However, if you modify the configuration, then Lenz law does not cause negative side effects. You can either use Lenz's law to wreck over-unity by letting it create drag inside of a motor/generator/transformer, or you can avoid letting it cause drag, and you can achieve over-unity.

This discussion is definetely not whether it violates the law of conservation of energy, since it does not. Electricity is created by a moving magnetic field. Magnetic fields create the electricity. Gasoline engines do not create electricity, they just provide a means of moving your generator which moves the magnets. However, since a magnetic field can be moved without using physical force, then there is no logical reason why you need "physical motion" to induce current!

Lenz's law causes the magnetism in a transformer to decrease, causing the transformer to fail. Instead of being an inductor, and resisting current flowing into the primary coil, the magnetic field strength collapses when you draw a load from the secondary. This is because Lenz's law makes the primary and secondary fields CANCEL EACH OTHER instead of REINFORCING each other. If you take Lenz's law out of the equation, then the primary inductor coil on a transformer will not increase current flow when the secondary coil is hooked up to a load. I have a post under the MEG forum that describes this in more detail. Though I am not an expert on transformers.

Faraday's law of induction says that one factor in how much electric power you can create is increasing the RATE OF CHANGE of the moving magnetic field passed over a coil of wire. On a generator that has no drag (no Lenz's law drag) then it can spin at very high speed, improving the RATE OF CHANGE, and according to Faraday's law, you get MORE VOLTAGE and MORE CURRENT without destroying tremendous amounts of energy at the input shaft of the generator.

Lenz law exists in motors. Yes, Lenz law causes drag. Lenz law creates drag anytime there is current moving through motor windings, or alternator/generator windings. Lenz law can only cause magnetic drag when the coils are carrying current. Coils that do not carry current do not have magnetism, so they cannot create magnetic drag.

The video of the Bedini-Cole window motor that runs on a capacitor may or may not be a true video, but it is definetely not far fetched to say that it worked. Without Lenz's law, you can make a motor that is self powering. Yes, self powering! (NO I have not done it myself... )  ;D




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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2008, 11:43:29 PM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2008, 12:11:01 AM »
My statement about taking it out of the equation means taking it out because it no longer applies.
These laws are only observations by people. Most over a hundred years ago. We still pay for Faraday's mistake thinking particles couldn't go through a solid.
Lenz didn't include flat spirals in his law. I assume because Faraday said there was no induction.

Wrong. When you approach the axis of a spiral coil with a magnetic pole there is an opposing magnetic force generated in that coil. It just isn't 180 deg. opposing. It is 90 degrees. So if a magnet could also have a name for the equatorial part of the field then that is what opposes the oncoming magnet's pole.

That is one way.

The other is to have no variation in the magnetic flux - then Lenz no longer applies. Normally current isn't generated either!

Not always.....

CEMF, BEMF are not the same thing but both are tied to the Lenz law. BEMF is also called flyback. It is the result of a coil's magnetic field collapsing. It is created when you remove EMF from the coil. CEMF is the counter force created when you apply current to a coil.

There is absolutely nothing magical about BEMF (BEMF was not part of my vocabulary until I started using the web for research on these topics and I've been burning circuits since the early 60's)

If you build a magical generator (no Lenz) then it should not also work as a motor. If you build a magical electric motor (no Lenz) then it probably won't work.

I mean NO LENZ law - not reduced or countered or whatever.
For the generator you would be able to turn the shaft and feel absolutely no magnetic related reluctance. AFAIK the only way to do this is to design a rotor that smoothly shifts the magnetic flux from one coil to another without -ever- causing a fluctuation in that flux.


Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2008, 02:30:01 AM »
Hi!

Correct. Laws are merely observations!  ;D

The real world has no boundaries, and anything is possible. The people who cannot think outside of the box, are terrified. They are scared to find that their entire reality is just an illusion. The illusion is a world of limitations. We are taught specific limitations and we are forced to obey them.

When you realize that we (normal citizens) really know nothing, it is very difficult to accept!

BEP, I have a question.

I have no experience with spiral coils, but I was wondering if you could make a generator from a spiral coil and avoid Lenz law magnetic drag. If you were to move a north and south magnet paralell to the wire, would this generate any useable power? Otherwise, if you moved the magnet across the wires at a 90 degree angle, would this have Lenz law? I am having trouble picturing it, since I have never used or studied a spiral coil. I do know that they do not have self inductance, therefore no back emf.  In my understanding, you could induce current into a spiral coil, but there would not be ANY magnetic field in the spiral coil, since it has no inductance. Is this right?


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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2008, 02:30:01 AM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2008, 03:38:54 AM »

BEP, I have a question.

I have no experience with spiral coils, but I was wondering if you could make a generator from a spiral coil and avoid Lenz law magnetic drag. If you were to move a north and south magnet paralell to the wire, would this generate any useable power? Otherwise, if you moved the magnet across the wires at a 90 degree angle, would this have Lenz law? I am having trouble picturing it, since I have never used or studied a spiral coil. I do know that they do not have self inductance, therefore no back emf.  In my understanding, you could induce current into a spiral coil, but there would not be ANY magnetic field in the spiral coil, since it has no inductance. Is this right?


By 'self inductance' you mean turn to turn induction? Yes, one turn would 'induce' into adjacent turns. Look at a typical, so-called 'Tesla transformer'. The primary is a spiral and the secondary a solenoid coil. Certainly there is induction. Also I consider this setup as likely free of the directly opposing Lenz problems.

A spiral coil follows the same rules as any other coil. The difference is a solenoid coil or single loop has the N/S poles at the ends of the axis of the coil.
A spiral has the N/S poles at the inner and outer diameters.

The Lenz law still applies, just not exactly as described in most text books. Most assume the two types of coils are the same except to the eye. They are not!

Make a generator with spiral coils? Why not? Figure it out and try. Be ready for some difficult winding. This may be why most folks haven't tried it. Think about the difficulty....

Winding a solenoid coil you just attach a wire to your spool form and spin that form until you have enough wire on it. (not exactly that simple). Multiple layers extend from the center of the axis in an ever increasing radial direction.

Multi layer spiral coils start at one end of the form and stay at that same spot until the maximum diameter of the coil is reached and then begin a second layer by winding in an ever decreasing diameter toward the coil form center, reverse-create another layer and continue until the length of the coil form is covered.

Difficult to describe but think of a rod with a bunch of washers stacked and slid onto it.

Then think of each washer as a separate flat spiral coil. All of these coils have the same handedness BUT one half of them have their winding start from the inner diameter and the other half start from the outer diameter.



« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 04:22:43 AM by BEP »

Offline sparks

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2008, 03:55:11 AM »
    Why I referenced the flyback transformer is that it is designed to draw energy from the core mass.  They know it is going to build up or retain magnetic domains when pulsed with dc.  To insure it doesn't they design the core to shed it's residual magnetism and make sure it does it all at once.  So what is actually giving us all that high voltage is coming from the steel atoms themselves as they return to natural magnetic arrangements.  I did a small experiment with a very unoptimized audio transformer. See below.  The leds litup and the second battery charged and the buzzer got louder as long as I didn't overvoltage the system.
   I also included a motor with a fan blade attached to the "stator".  The fan blades are a matched load.  Looks to be more efficient then stretching mounting bolts.  Seems that reactive energy is being overlooked alot.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2008, 03:55:11 AM »
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Offline nightlife

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2008, 04:14:05 AM »
 Couldn't you just pulse one polarity and then pulse the opposite continuously to keep the core from magnetizing? Wouldn't that also be away to collect the back EMF without have to have a second winding? To do that couldn't you have a second wire attached to each of the leads from the coil and place two diodes one way and the other two the opposite and charge the same battery that way?

 It may be obvious that I don't know much about circuitry but that has been bugging me for some time now because I have yet to here of that being done.

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2008, 07:03:49 AM »
A physics web forum said, if you "Make any flat (2d) figure of a wire such as a sinusoid or a spiral they will not have inductance. Inductance will appear only if these figures are stretched in the third dimension."

I did notice that the flat spiral cores they print on circuit boads called "planar" are not really spiral core. They are simply printed coils, with a normal design and a normal core that wraps around them almost entirely. The coil itself may not have much inductance until the core is placed on it. So printed circuit boards aren't a good example for an argument.

Then I found the math equation for self inductance of a spiral core. I am terrible at math, but I came out with a figure of 11 Micro Henries (uH) for a hypothetical spiral coil that is 16" in diameter mounted to a round flat piece of wood using 120 turns of wire (not sure what gauge) with no gap in the center of the coil.

If I were to use a spiral coil mounted to a board, it should not be able to create any noticeable magnetic drag in opposition to a rotating magnet, since the copper wire will not be able to create much a magnetic field. It has very little induction right? The question now remains, can you induce very much current into a spiral coil winding using rotating magnets?

I hope I'm not WAY off track, lol.


Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2008, 02:52:12 PM »
If you have built such a coil I suggest you measure it, apply current and test with a compass.

I've found many formula for these coils. None work unless you throw in a 'fudge factor'.

For a coil with no inductance they do very well in RFID tags, security badges and wireless power transmission.

I believe there is a company called CheckPoint that prints them in sheets so you can catch shoplifters.

Offline sparks

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2008, 03:38:19 PM »
@bep    "wireless power transmission" :D.  Do they make em so you can catch them sneaky joule thiefs?  Probably not JP Morgan made sure of that.

@supermuble

     They make or made an alternator that used 2 kidney shaped flat ouput windings wound with aluminum flat wire and a set of permanent magnets spinning on the rotor.
Really simple machine that didn't even need a voltage regulator to respond to changing load currents.  Really put out alot of power for it's size.  No steel core real light.  Guys would swear by em for ouput to fuel cost ratios.   Could have been Kohler or Generac.  Seems to have been a move in the right direction getting rid of the steel.   
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 04:00:01 PM by sparks »

 

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