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Author Topic: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.  (Read 19214 times)

CrazyEwok

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Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« on: November 17, 2008, 03:12:08 AM »
Search the internet for this if you are unsure of what i am talking about but i would like to say that this forward thinking claimed he had a self sustaining concept for electrical generation. Being as it was not in his field (Tesla was into harnessing the energy of the cosmos at the time of his claims not a few Volts of DC electricity from a spinning disk which is why i think he never went into it much) at the time he never disclosed much about his claim except for his notes which are posted around the net now.
Has anyone tried his ideas and what has become of their tests? Has anyone tried any variations? if there is any links to other threads where this has been covered or have been partly documented links would be greatly appreciated.
I am starting construction of my own design (which those that have read my posts in the magnet battery thread know i have not so much spare time) which i will post the 3D model which i am drawing up on my breaks at work which i will post. Anyone having any idea's for improvments or noticable flaws please speak up!!!

nightlife

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on .
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2008, 03:41:54 AM »
 The following link will direct you to Teslas notes on the unipolar dynamo's.

http://www.stardrivedevice.com/Tesla_notes.html

CrazyEwok

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 04:32:59 AM »
 Thanks Nightlife,
Is anyone looking into this at the moment or has looked into it in the past. Perhaps actual tests etc etc. Also any other Dynamo adaptions that people have tried? i have a few ideas for tests that i am going to try but short listing them (many hands make light work) would be really nice.

Koen1

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 03:04:32 PM »
Yes, I have studied homopolar "dynamos" for a while.
Ampere built one, Faraday built one, I think most "pioneers"
in the old days built versions of it. They never noticed any
over unity effects, but they were intrigued by the fact that
such generators also work when you attach the magnet to
the metal disc and spin the entire thing, and that they did
not work when the disc was held stationary and the magnets
were spun. They thought it might be an asymmetrical effect.
Turned out not to be of course, but that was one of the things
that fascinated quite a number of the old guys. Even Einstein
in his earlier years thought that is was an anomalous dynamo.

Tesla indeed did a little work on them although as far as I know
not much at all, and the coolest thing he came up with was to
carve special "conductive paths" in the disc surface which he claimed
allowed the electrical output to flow more easily, thus producing
a slightly higher output.

You may want to look up the Indian mr Tewari and his homopolar
generator which, it is claimed, he demostrated as slightly over unity
at a conference (in Germany?) about a century ago.

And then of course you may want to look up the late Bruce dePalma
who studied homopolar generators at MIT and designed and tested
several what he called "N-machines", of which he was convinced
they can produce over unity. As far as I know he was never able to
succesfully prove that before he passed away.
Some have speculated that perhaps if Bruce had been able to build
a superconductive N-machine, he might have been able to prove it.

Most of the variations are only minor variations on the theme.
Tewari for example used electromagnets to generate the magnetic
field, and an iron rotor. DePalma at some point was looking at a
version, which I believe Faraday had also designed a version of,
that used a mercury pool instead of brush contacts at the discs rim,
so there would be minimal physical friction and good conduction.

Some have designed and built versions consisting of multiple zones
of alternating magnetic field and multiple seperated "spokes" on the wheel,
so that the different "spokes" generated alternating currents while
the wheel spun. Some have claimed these no longer qualify as homopolar
dynamos because the magnetic field is not unidirectional, but I disagree.
The basic function is still the same, it still depends on movement of a
conductor through a magnetic field that is perpendicular to the direction
of motion, and that still generates a current perpendicular to both.
It is in fact a variation of the "Hall effect", and also works if the conductor
is stationary but the electron "gas" inside the conductor is moving.

A variation that I seem to recall Bruce dePalma did come up with,
but one that I have not seen in the work of most others, is one where
we don't use a disc but rather a pipe. Imagine we take a copper pipe.
We also take two pipes of the same length but one slightly wider
and the other slightly less wide, so that the copper pipe fits neatly inside
the one and over the other. These second pipes must be made of magnetic
material, so ideally we'd have two permanent magnets shaped like a cylinder.
Crucial here is that these magnetic cylinders must be magnetised radially,
in the sense that the North pole is located on the outer surface of the cylinders
and the South pole on the inner surface.
Now we attach two copper end caps to the copper pipe, with an axle fixed to them.
If we now spin the entire cylindrical setup around its central axis,
a DC current will run through the pipe from the top to the bottom or vice versa
depending on the magnetic field polarisation and the direction of rotation.
And obviously the end caps can now be connected to a wire, and DC will run through
the wire.
That is a cylindrical version of the "homopolar disc generator", and it works.

But as far as I know nobody has been able to actually get OU from such a dynamo.
And if anyone did manage, they certainly are keeping it a secret. ;)

CrazyEwok

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 04:38:28 AM »
Quote
In the former case the machine will be capable of exciting itself when the disc is rotated in the direction of arrow D.
- Nikola Tesla. about dynamos in the link above.
This statement is what is intriguing me and has motivated me into trying this. I think he is saying if the disk is divided spirally the dynamo could in essence power itself... Now this is not OU as it creates a magnetic field witch would degrade the permanent magnets over time. But if it does work high speed rotation may be able to use the extra generated energy (the excess that is not used up in rotation) Could be used to power electro magnets... if enough power is produced (and you exclude wear) possible chance of small replicatable and modifiable DC generators... Not Mr Tesla's finest work at promoting his AC power (I'm sure after securing AC power as the mains releasing DC power making machines that run for year producing electricity even for him would not of been on the forefront). Also since his dream (at that particular time if memory serves) was for wireless electrical transmission of power harnessed from the cosmos through his giant towers. But still all the same the idea is there.

Problems:
Quote
But let us now suppose the disc to be subdivided, spirally,
-Nikola Tesla, In the link if interested!!!
How does he mean "subdivided"?!?
Cutting the disk and creating "air gaps" would do it i am sure but it would weaken your disk structurally. and if the disk generated enough charge would they not jump the air gaps? Hence reducing the desired effect.
Nonconductive spacers would do the trick for sure but that is extra weight your pushing... possible but,,,

Can it be pushed to the limit? If subdiving the disk increases power output, could placing a coil instead of a disk which would force the charge to spirally move from the center to the outside of a disk forcing it to stay in "the charge zone" of the magnets for the longest possible time... Well that is my trial. A coil instead of a disk. I have the plan of using old useless Cd's as the platforms to mount my magnets and to affix the coil to. Any advice would be helpful as i am unsure if i need to remove the film that is placed on them. (If it needs to be removed off the magnet holding frames or the coil frame... or both. If it works it would be a cheap and sustainable powersource i believe. But not jumping the gun. I have 2 alternatives i would like to try is the straight coil doesn't work also. Creating a Coil out of a coil. So coiling the wire around say a pipecleaner or something thin and mailable then coiling that long electromagnet and spinning it in a dynamo. the other is using either the coiled coil or a normal coil and as it passes the center of the retainer/brace it passes through onto the other side then opposable winding another one and then as it hits switching sides... complicated but in my abundance of space time (all 2 minutes every week) i hope to get some of it done.

If anyone likes the look of any of this and would like to help by doing any of it post here and if there are any gray areas of my explanation ask and i will try to elaborate. I have time at work to post in the forums but i don't know how my boss will react if i start playing Mr hobbyist on my desk next to my computer with magnets glue and Cd's...

scotty1

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 12:37:00 PM »
Hi all.
Tesla likes to write in a progressive way...lots of ideas in between, but surpassed at the end.
The early discs were no good because the disc was mostly a short circuit for current.
Tesla showed how you could put coils around the disc edge to improve it.
Then he showed that there was 2 current paths...
One would demagnetize the magnet.
One could keep the magnet magnetized....if you keep the disc spinning.
Then he showed how to sub-divide the disc to collect the correct current path.
Then he showed that if you did that you would need to join the divisions with a ring ect.
Then....after some more chatting...Tesla showed that the best way was to have a disc with some windings around the edge, and then a closed ring over that to collect the current.
"The action of the eddy currents may be utilized to excite a machine of any construction" N.T
THEN.....he said that you could use 2 discs with wide flanges, and a conducting belt to join them.
DYNAMO ELECTRIC MACHINE http://www.rastko.org.yu/cms/files/books/46c5b771b7e2f.pdf
 ;D
cheers
Scotty.
BTW...i'd like to make that device, but to do a good job is alot of work. I did make a model about 2 years ago but went no further.
I can get metals cast for mates rates  :D now, so maybe next year I could make a decent replication.



Koen1

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 05:19:04 PM »
@CrazyEwok: the "spiral subdivided disc" is interesting...
I thought he meant to basically cut the metal disc into a
flat "pancake coil"-like spiral, in other words use a 'ribbon'
wire instead of a normal round one and wind a flat pancake coil,
starting from the center and winding each turn around the next turn,
while keeping the 'ribbon' flat on the table surface...
With a normal "pankace" coil we'd get a magnetic field geometry
where the field "lines" are stronger and more coherent in a
horizontal plane parallel to the coil surface, basically on each
side of the pancake the field lines run between center and rim.
With a more widely wound and thus more spirally shaped coil,
there would be less of this typical field geometry and more of
a "normal" coil field geometry, which would align a little better
with the homogenic field of the permanent magnet.
Also, but I am not certain of this, it would seem that such a spiral
arrangement might (partially) combine the direction of rotation
with the direction of output current. This is a fairly heavily Hall-effect
inclined interpretation: circular electron currents have a similar
(if not identical) effect as a rotating conductor when used in a homogenic
magnetic field in that they both generate a current that is perpendicular
to both the magnetic field and the direction of movement/current.
One could speculate that using the output current as "feed" current,
in combination with the magnetic field, one might be able to amplify
the effect. However, it seems to me that a "simple" spiral coil,
with or without the 'ribbon' wire, would not automatically generate
currents in such an arrangement as to produce such an amplifying effect.
It seems to me that such an arrangement would need two intersecting
spirals so that the output current of one spiral may act as the input current
for the other and vice versa.
And if I am not mistaken Tesla did carve overlapping "spirals" into the surface
of some of his experimental homopolar discs. ;) Carving a spiral in a metal disc
would increase the conductive surface locally, allowing for a little more freedom
of movement for electrons, so currents would concentrate along those carved lines.
Or at least, I seem to recall Tesla speculating about that. (Perhaps more observation
than speculation, after all, it is Tesla.;))
 

Shanti

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 08:06:35 PM »
LOL. Again a story about Tesla, of someone, who didn't really read his texts or didn't really understand them. Sorry if this was rude. But this happens so often, that I really get sick of it...

To make it short:

Tesla mentioned, that if one makes the conducting plate part of the homopolar generator not as one piece, but as a spiral, then, the generated current will flow through this "spiral". But as a spiral in which current is flowing is always generating a magnetic field, you can turn the spiral in the right direction and the generated field will help the otherwise needed externally magnetic field. You can even go so far, as to not use any external magnet, and just spin the spiral. The slight magnetic field of the earth will start a small current, and the spiral will then start to generate an magnetic field, which will then induce a stronger current in the homopolar generator, which will again generate an even stronger magnetic field, ...
This Tesla called a self exciting generator. With this he just meant, that the generator is producing his own magnetic field, and not, that the generator is producing more energy or any overunity!!!
You could just as good just take a very strong external magnet, to have the same results. But with this self exciting method you don't need it. This makes such a generator much easier and cheaper to build. As usually the magnet part is the hard part to get/construct.
But be sure, as the current gets stronger, and so also the magnetic field, the power needed to turn the generator also increases!
If you don't believe it, try it!

CrazyEwok

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 12:58:32 AM »
Lol... unfortunately i do not believe that overunity on a small scale will happen in my life time. Massive generators used to power cities... maybe but unlikely i am more looking at highly efficient ways of producing electricity... The one thing that always confused me about Tesla is that while he had "limitless" power at his disposal he was always making things more efficient... if he had an invention there would be multiple revisions... not just to fine tune it but there are countless revions in his patents that simply refer to efficientcy?!? I already believe that there is more than enough electricity being generated for everyone to use it is just cheaper to buy things that are inefficient due to materials costs and R&D. So we use aincent technology because it is tried and tested to work... whereas i think we should be looking at getting things that do the same job but are more efficient... I am hoping that my final idea ( coils into a coil) then having two that switch sides halfway in the disk will produce promising results in efficientcy...

Just a question though wouldn't the magnetic field that you create on the disk help with rotation of the disk itself? not saying that it would produce overunity because of force required to rotate would not be equal to that of magnetic force utilized in propulsion... hmmm might need to get myself a tacho for my experiment...


Shanti

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 12:59:14 PM »
Quote
The one thing that always confused me about Tesla is that while he had "limitless" power at his disposal he was always making things more efficient.

As far as I understood Tesla, he didn't develop with every invention he made a FE-Device, like many many people here think...
His best idea was his "Magnifying Transmitter", as he himself said, and also this doesn't just "produce Energy". The main goal of the Magnifying Transmitter was to transmit power over the whole earth, so that the cabling wasn't needed anymore, and mainly, that the power plants which generate the power could be built anyhwere on earth, where there are natural ressources (waterfalls, geothermic energy, ...). This could also be in the middle of nowhere...

Quote
Just a question though wouldn't the magnetic field that you create on the disk help with rotation of the disk itself?

Why should it???
It would be the same, as if you would add an additional permanent magnet on a conventional homopolar generator. This also does not help  with the rotation...

CrazyEwok

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2008, 03:13:02 AM »
Don't get me wrong i know that his dream was of a global energy network with Wardenclyffe as the starting point, but you look through his list of patents. there is a overload of many different ways of doing prettymuch the same thing. and a lot of it is "cost reduction and ease of creation" or "more efficient means of"
and over coming or even utilizing this magnetic field that is produced is half the fun!!! I am not intending on using the resulting magnetic field as a propulsion method but maybe harnessing it and using it to reduce the power required to produce a current at that level...

I'm sure that if you add an increasing magnetic field at the right angle/vector to the original fields you should be able to use it... But if not i will have myself an experiment that i can document what changes i have made and what result perhaps saving some one some effort or supplying them with the information they want.

Shanti

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2008, 11:44:21 AM »
Quote
I am not intending on using the resulting magnetic field as a propulsion method but maybe harnessing it and using it to reduce the power required to produce a current at that level...

As I said before, the power required to get a certain power out of it has nothing to do with the strength of the magnetic field. The principle is simple: The stronger the magnetic field, the more torque you need to turn the motor, but also the more current you get.
This means, if you just have a very slight magnetic field, then you need only a small torque, but you also only get  a small amount of generated energy. So you have to turn the generator quite fast to catch this up.
This means: for the same amount of power out, you can either take a small magnetic field and turn the generator really fast, or take a strong field and turn it slower. As for the power needed it's absolutely the same, the torque and the rotation velocity decide the power needed. There's no magic to it. All conventional electric laws.
Sure, the extreme case, when there's no magnetic field, the homopolar generator doesn't work anymore, as the rotation speed would have to been infinite according to the equations...
And in practice surely quite some power will also be lost in the bearings, therefore practically a strong magnetic field is preferred, as the rotation velocity (and with that the bearing loss) can be kept small.

Quote
I'm sure that if you add an increasing magnetic field at the right angle/vector to the original fields you should be able to use it..

Use it for what?
As I said before, the strength of the magnetic field has principally nothing to do with the power-conversion-ratio.
All additional magnetic fields vectors which are parallel to the rotating axe either add to the exciting magnetic field or substract.

BTW: Homopolar generators are still used today. E.g. in some High Energy labs or for military purposes, as they are a very simple methode to generate extremely high currents.
E.g. by setting the disk in rotation you accumulate energy (rotation energy). Then by closing the circuit, the disk becomes a homopolar generator and the Rotation Energy becomes electric energy with an extremely high current.
E.g. in military applications this is used to power a railgun.

CrazyEwok

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 01:46:43 AM »
Wow Shanti, You sound like your really knowledgable on the ins ands outs of Dynamo's. Say can you point me in the direction of some material that tells me what a magnetic field is? or even how it effects electricity and why?!?  :P
Also just to pick your brain a little bit more can you refer me to some texts (electronic or print) that can show me atleast some of the experiments i am proposing and their out comes? this really interests me and i would like to know the results of the experiments to save myself some time?

Any information on different configurations and styles that were proposed and the results of the tests would be great!!!

Thaelin

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 04:03:05 PM »
   This brings to mind a question I have had for a long time. In patent number
381968, I see everything except a place to hook the power to. It has a 3 phase
generator hooked to a motor and commutators to deliver the output to the input.

   Am I just missing something here? 

thaelin

FastRuner

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Re: Tesla's "notes" on unipolar dynamo's.
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 07:17:56 PM »
Hello.

Interesting information on this page about unipolar gen:
http://www.matri-x.ru/energy/unipolar.shtml

Best regards, FastRuner.