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Author Topic: Open "Free Source" ideas  (Read 11321 times)

rlortie

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Open "Free Source" ideas
« on: November 17, 2008, 12:55:49 AM »
Broli,

This thread is dedicated to you and all that believe we can gain ground by sharing ideas in an open forum. I call it; Think-Tanking.

The rules are simple: Each participant either posts and idea or comments on ones already posted, participants then explain their negative and positive views and build upon it. The judging will be done by the consensus of all participants that offer tangible reasoning as to why or why not it will not work. All who post unrelated or unproductive input will not be counted in the final member count of who should share  recognition if a self-sustaining wheel is conceived.  Members may post as many ideas as they wish, response should specify to the concept in question.

Broli,  I am dedicating this thread to your wishes and demands, I give you the honor of being the first to submit one of your ideas. Think  of a ball playing field, stupid ideas are welcome as it gives participants a longer field  to grab the ball and run, improving on the idea. We will see how many members respond, how many ideas are posted and how long this thread will stay active. All are welcome to join in, but please lets keep to the rules of the game. 

We now await your first submittable idea, In parliamentary procedure you are now recognized as having the floor!

Ralph Lortie
   

   

broli

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Re: Open 'Free Sourcing" ideas
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2008, 01:04:04 AM »
Didn't you just say all my ideas where copies of others? So if my slow brain can comprehend this. You're trying to humiliate me now??? Gee I guess you got me there  :-\.

Ralph let's cut the crap shall we? If I have something worth sharing I will unlike you that's the point of the whole story.

rlortie

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2008, 01:28:19 AM »
Broli,

No, I am not trying to humiliate you, I am trying to start a thread based on your desires, if you have nothing to offer then maybe some other member interested will post something. I did not say all your ideas were copies of others, I said most of them were.

I do not consider this thread to be crap, but rather an experiment to see what kind of response it gets, and how many members are interested in sharing their ideas to everyone.

If you do not have any then you  can  build on others from your file or on those posted here.  If you currently do not wish to post an idea to start the game then concede  the floor to someone else, 

Ralph 

helmut

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 11:35:37 PM »
Gd day all
I just notice about this thread and i find it a good idea.
Open (free)source might be the only way to publish something to become a well known design.
I am sorry that Bob are not able to understand the fact, that to much time is lost, if he hides his
patent until the next war for energy ist started and civilians  dieing  just for the
interest in Profit by energy suppliers.
If the use on gravity is a way to go, the we should search after the right path.

helmut

Dgraphic911

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 12:59:53 AM »
Before anyone goes further and wastes time this was not meant to be a good idea, it was ralphs way of saying "if you want to see my good stuff then lets see how many other people have good stuff and want to share"  Ralph (and many others) never show thier good ideas. I could paste and cut thousands of direct quotes from all the prolific posters that all say, " i don't want to show as i believe the idea still has merit" or " i can't say just yet what i'm working on" or on and on. The truth really is that they have nothing that youy should be concerned about anyway. So don't sweat it. Noone will be able to run with someone elses ideas and make much of them anyway. Newbies think that the pros have some secret vault of workable ideas. Let me tell you, every time i have heard an experienced member say they had something, only to show it months later, its usually laughable. unfortunately.

The simple truth is it will be discovered by an individual and not by group think, as this is how most inventors choose to work, Then their is the the others, The worthless time wasters that have completely unworkable ideas that they can't even explain very well or don 't see the complete and utter reason why the thing will fail. They choose to constatly share their ideas and hide behind the " i can't build it but i know it will work" veil. and get mad at everyone else for not building it for them.

Please end thread here, Ralph won't share, he doesn't have any greater ability to find it than anyone else. Broli believes Ralph should share more. I guess I used to also until i realised he has nothing.Ralph i'm not trying to trick you into saying you do, don't worry.  The more people share bad ideas the harder it will be to actually see past all the unworkable ideas and think outside the box.  Ralphs extensive experiance is actually his handicap. This will be stumbled upon by a newbie, without classic engineering background. Once you have seen so many failures as ralph has you begin to prejudge and reject ideas based upon what you think you have learned. For all those that think having Ralph or anyone else share what they m ight have learned please stop asking. It is a terible mistake to try and learn from someone elses mistakes on the quest.

broli

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 01:23:51 AM »
Dgraphic911, I just saw The Dark Knight a few moments ago and maybe my mind is still warped in that world but you funnily enough sounded like the Joker  ;D. You said lots of wise things but also some things that are wrong to me. I don't believe in the fact that a gravity wheel will be stumbled upon. When you're in this "business" you have to have a strong will. In the end the one with the strongest will will succeed. So even if you fail 1000 times you have to remain as driven as you were at the beginning, that's the key for success. My theory is that one strong willed person can achieve a lot, a strong willed group can achieve anything. That's why I'm making a big deal out of all this sharing thing.

DrWhat

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 03:04:10 AM »
I think a group should be established to totally share "Bessler Wheel" ideas and be bound by a contract such that whoever makes the discovery within the group lets the whole group share. And even if they go it alone and make the discovery they are bound to share it with the group. Maybe a time limit had to be placed on this. Say 10 years. If someone makes the discovery alone and hides it for the contract's 10 year span, then they run the risk of it being invented by another in that time.

The problem is re non contributers who sit idly in the group. Well that is fine. I'm sure there would be plenty to share financially if that is the road taken, or else if agreed it is given away freely then no one is disadvantaged. Maybe someone sitting back eventually just contributes 1 idea at a critical point and that may make all the difference.

There should be no financial obligations in the group except at the start to get the contract compiled.

Just thoughts as always.


rlortie

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 06:55:58 AM »
Well guys I must admit, this thread is getting more attention than I thought it would.

My intent was to make a point that those screaming the loudest for an inventor to build something and give it to thy neighbor are the same people who do not have the initiative or the capability of building it themselves.  In the political world they are called "Liberals"...

Stumbling on it by accident is very likely how the answer will be found, many would look at this as a gift from God just as Bessler did!  He worked for a number of years before finding the answer, now was it by accident or a gift from God. The best way of increasing the odds of finding something by accident is working on something to create such an accident.

You are not going to find it by sitting back and talking about it.  I am willing to share with every Tom, Dick and Harry out there providing they have done something to share ideas deemed innovative and result in a working device. To my thinking it is against the grain of social behavior to work your ass off and then share with your neighbor while his  only effort is to cry 'giveme, giveme' 

The simple truth is it will be discovered by an individual and not by group think, as this is how most inventors choose to work, Then their is the the others, The worthless time wasters that have completely unworkable ideas that they can't even explain very well or don 't see the complete and utter reason why the thing will fail. They choose to constatly share their ideas and hide behind the " i can't build it but i know it will work" veil. and get mad at everyone else for not building it for them.

I could not have said it better! Thank you, although I would not rule out the group thing,  There are a few tight groups of "doers" that work together, some working with more that one individual or group. Others like myself, have a partner to knock ideas back and forth with. I look for the 'Newbie's" as well as the established who show mechanical aptitude, dexterity and the empirical skills placing themselves in a position to stumble and have an accident.  I have experienced  a few such accidental finds, they were not the ultimate but certainly helped.

Maybe someone sitting back eventually just contributes 1 idea at a critical point and that may make all the difference.

That my friend is exactly what it is all about, ideas that can make someones project turn into a reality. Do you think I would have a problem sharing with that person? I do not think so!

it was ralphs way of saying "if you want to see my good stuff then lets see how many other people have good stuff and want to share"  Ralph (and many others) never show thier good ideas.

Not quite worded correctly!  I am not saying 'if you want to see my good stuff'.... I am saying how many out there are willing to give away the sweat off their brow, their innovative achievements and possibly years of trial and error research to someone for nothing that  would not appreciate it. I am willing to give to those who helped in achieving what I have to offer. One does not have to be a mind reader or carry a sheepskin to deduce what members show potential of offering input worthy of sharing with.

Please end thread here, Ralph won't share, he doesn't have any greater ability to find it than anyone else. Broli believes Ralph should share more. I guess I used to also until i realised he has nothing.Ralph i'm not trying to trick you into saying you do, don't worry.  The more people share bad ideas the harder it will be to actually see past all the unworkable ideas and think outside the box.  Ralphs extensive experiance is actually his handicap. This will be stumbled upon by a newbie, without classic engineering background. Once you have seen so many failures as ralph has you begin to prejudge and reject ideas based upon what you think you have learned. For all those that think having Ralph or anyone else share what they m ight have learned please stop asking. It is a terible mistake to try and learn from someone elses mistakes on the quest.     

A provocative statement, If this were Besslerwheel.com, I would say it is worthy of an 'Off Topic' thread of its own.
Your are correct, I have no greater ability to find it than anyone else,  unless you wish to consider my mechanical aptitude and hands on experience.

 Do I have a self-sustaining runner?  The answer is no!  The more people who share bad ideas can be productive in the long run, it is called 'Process of Elimination'. Some one viewing a bad idea may see or get an idea of what it may take to be a runner, that is to say stumble on to something.

True, there is no need to ask me to share my ideas. it is quite simple, I willingly share my ideas with those who have helped bring said ideas into the real world whether it works or not. I am a trial and error builder hoping for an accident, not a philosopher or a philanthropist.

Those who claim they have a runner or will present one on a given date have to this day never delivered.  To my thinking this has to be the most foolish yet productive thing a person can do. Announcing an unveiling date has created some of the longest threads on this forum. I do not believe the mention of names is necessary. Others try to duplicate without the true facts, they learn the hard way.  When all is said and done a lot of ideas have changed hands, and developed a bond bringing some members closer together willing to trust and exchange information.

During these scenarios the thread becomes contaminated and lead astray by the liberals who feel that the announcer/inventor should give it away!
     
You cannot re-invent the wheel and give it away. No explanation necessary, if you do not understand by now, you never will.

Ralph lortie       
   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 07:53:31 AM by rlortie »

rlortie

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 07:33:43 AM »
DrWhat,

You wrote:

The problem is re non contributers who sit idly in the group. Well that is fine. I'm sure there would be plenty to share financially if that is the road taken, or else if agreed it is given away freely then no one is disadvantaged. Maybe someone sitting back eventually just contributes 1 idea at a critical point and that may make all the difference.


I strongly disagree!  Not everyone can build a unit for their own use. If you give it away the utility companies, Oil magnates and big bucks will gobble it up building wheel farms. Do you really think they will drop the price per kilowatt from what they presently charge?  The answer is no, they will charge more as it is considered 'Green earth technology'  Most consumers are already paying more for wind produced power than they do for fossil fueled generation.

Every couple of months I receive a letter or a phone survey wanting to know if I would be willing to pay more per watt hour for wind generated 'green' power. When I ask them what category Hydro-electric power falls under, they go total blank and tell me that is not on the list of options. That is what I am presently paying for and if it is not 'renewable' I do not know what is!

If you do not patent and keep control the consumers that rely on a meter attached to the side of their house has gained nothing. In fact the supplier will gouge him for more!

To say no one is disadvantaged only applies to those who can build one. Free source? who is going to build units on an assembly line basis and give them away? Nothing worthwhile comes free, there is a price tag and when given a chance the supplier will increase that price tag! 

Ralph     

DrWhat

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2008, 06:34:47 AM »
P-Motion and Ralph. Look, don't get me wrong. I agree that patenting this design of Bessler's (or whatever) would be ideal. And I'm all for that primarily. A group patent would be great with various contributors. Us "regulars" should be part of that group.

But at this stage nothing has been achieved so far towards the discovery. Mainly because of trust issues "will he steal my idea, or not keep it secret..."., and also the thought "I'll be the one" or "I've put in so much effort I deserve to be the one!". Also "I have a great idea but and keeping it to myself".

Sure we have learnt a lot about Bessler, got more accurate translations etc. And a lot of people have put in a lot of effort including myself primarily behind closed doors.

Yet at the point we are at, I would rather the discovery be made and at the cost of it being open source, rather than not be made at all.

Or if a group of us can come to an iron-clad agreement, we could then really dig our teeth into this and share all our ideas in private and hopefully make a "group" discovery. I'm sure the rewards would be big enough that a slice of the pie would be huge for each member.

Basically I just want the damn thing discovered! At this point I don't care who owns it. Just finding out how it was done would be a relief in itself. But a group patent would be ideal.

D

rlortie

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 08:51:28 AM »
In my introduction to this thread, I suggested some basic ground rules

Think  of a ball playing field, stupid ideas are welcome as it gives participants a longer field  to grab the ball and run, improving on the idea. We will see how many members respond, how many ideas are posted and how long this thread will stay active. All are welcome to join in, but please lets keep to the rules of the game.


So far P-motion is the only one to present an idea, and they certainly offer the prescribed rather long playing fields to improve upon, which was my secondary point of the experiment!. All the other posts are rhetorical hypothesis of who should get what. You have the cart before the horse, you need the 'what' and then all members who have donated productive ideas are the ones recognized to share!

I thought I knew a little about human, and social behavior, I did not expect this thread to gain the  attention it is. Unfortunately, as well proven it is not receiving  the intended type of input.

That being; does, does any one have suggestions of improving and or implementing p-motions input?

Ralph     

helmut

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 11:24:12 AM »
  Ralph,
 One aspect of a Think Tank is that everyone is an equal part of it. This is to promote the free exchange of ideas.
 An example of this would be when dggraphic, Helmut, Pequaide and myself were discussing different ways a pendulum motion could be used in a wheel. It wasn't who had the best idea, but what ideas did someone have.
 Then as I worked on a design, I was able to build it to better understand how the different things that were discussed could work.
 As with what you suggested, whether it was in jest or not, I do not know.
 As for a design that could be built, this would actually be a rare opportunity. No perpetual wheel has ever been demonstrated publicly that was open to inspection. And I think that what would be really cool. To allow for the best possible design is to consider anyone willing to discuss what could work well, or what might not an equal partner. This would help to make an actual build easier by allowing for a better initial concept.
 And with the backgrounds and experience the people in here and BesslerWheel.com have, it would be a waste of their ability not to try and encourage people in both forums to participate.
 

Hi Jim
I think you just express it the right way.
All informations or inputs can be most important.
Ones we had a link to a Youtube Vid showing a Gravity wheel from fuelles power im Motion.
There was a working process to watch.The same setup as in the prospect.
I whish we had a copy of this.

helmut

bluesgtr44

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 04:43:30 PM »
Let's go with P-motions basic design.....it has been tried before many times in differing applications. The most recent one I remember is one KAS put out. It had another smaller wheel that was attached pendulum wise, to the axle in a way that provided as offset to one side. It used inner connecting rods that shifted the weights which provided an offset path from the axle......as you have shown. He did this with WM2D and it seemed to work within this program, but SIM world is NOT real world, unfortunately. I want to give some personal kudos to KAS, he does put his stuff out there and has a keen view of this endeavor.

In any of my efforts with this approach it seems that the configuration always finds its "symmetry". It's breaking that symmetry at some point and then having the ability to maintain and control that offset while the wheel itself is accelerating...which provides other little goodies that will have an affect on this offset. So, my approaches to ideas is usually setting up the basis and then grasp the understanding of why it won't work in the particular form or set-up. From there I can try to make adjustments and see if I am just trying the S.O.S. by changing the semantics, not actually changing the disposition.

I know I don't come here much and it's not to say I don't like what happens here. I'm pretty much a Bessler enthusiast because I believe he did it! And there is a lot of information to go on from his demonstrations and tests, so I spend most of my time at the Bessler site. So, that being said....I do like this approach and I would be more than willing to contribute, discuss, share whatever I can. Although, some of you may find that it's not much compared to others who are more knowledgeable than I am.


Steve

Dgraphic911

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 01:16:29 AM »
If i have an idea do i just jump in? or do i have to improve upon p-motions basic mechanical design. HMMMMM? i'm confused. Well lately i have been thinking about the "faking it" notion that was brought up a while back @ b wheel. Lets have acontest to fake it and the by product might be we could stumble upon it. Well that was intriguing and i right quick came up with the way to fake it. But the kicker was it had to be done the way bessler did it. No electric motors. hmmmm, that makes it harder for about a second.

Now some may say "off topic" but i say no. Because i believe i have a working design. It was based upon faking it, but grew. OK so lets get down to brass tacks.

For the sake of this working, we need to ASSume a few things. One being that our ideas that it will work and our misguided calculations of some designs efficiency are correct. It was suggested in Besslers time that a spring or wind up mechanism was the way in which it worked. And i think that we could make aself sustaining gravit wheel with one also. Just instead of using one large mechanism we use multiple mechanisms.To make it easy lets say 12 windup mechs at each hour position of the clock.

Now this is where we have to assume. Lets say that some of these " super efficient"  ineffective shifting mechs could be used to wind each spring mech though the use of rachet attachments. Some have made claims regarding patented devices that the swinging levers produce much more force than input to spin the wheel. And its these swinging levers that i suggest be attached directly via rachet to spring mechs. If you are unfamiliar with the wheel/device  that i speak, i am sure ralph or steve can eloborate as it was a recent Patent/wheel thread on Bwheel.

Now lets harnes this power from each 12th rotation, so that each mech fires ones every 12 rotaions. and we can have it fire easily by causing it to have a CCW mech that fire every 360 degrees.  Now where does it Fire?  How about down into a pendulum mounted in the center rotating on the axle. Every time it unwinds it flicks the pendulum.(like in the early bessler MT.This will cause continous motion in the pendulum and allow it to then deliver the "magic" force into yet another mech. The actual "prime mover" which could be any number of designs which will only go just about all the way but need that extra push.

If your still with me and want to believe then i can create some propoganda for the idea.

One of three kingdoms/  three separate mechs.   Pendulum, prime mover, spring rachet

There is definate evidence of some rachet parts and shifters that belong where???

If PM is possible then this is. I am hard pressed to find frictional loss on this desing(in my head). Unfortunately i find this to be a VERY complicated design to build. And would not fall into the "a carpenters boy coulb build it " category. But maybe the Spring mechs were hiden so the rest seemed to be easy.

This would easily fall into to self winding clock category which most of us think works. So ? Instead of spending the rest of the thread explaining to Pmotion how a balance beam works i would like to know what you think of my  IDEA?

I apologize if it makes no sense.
Dave



DrWhat

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Re: Open "Free Source" ideas
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 03:02:55 AM »
Hi Dave,

it was my idea to fake it (on BW) and to help us come up with a mech.

I do like your idea of multiple mechs at each hour position firing to swing the pendulum (if I understood it correctly). So you need to wind up the "hour position" mechs somehow, maybe like "pushing down on a large lever" that Bessler apparently did and then have a triggering mechanism at each hour point such that as one mech passed a rod it pushed the rod momentarily and a spring device pushed the main pendulum.

Then the pendulum would need a clattering ratchet device to swing one way and then push the wheel the other way.

Looks to me like you need a clockmaker to help you, or elso some more recent grandfather clock mechs may help.

Good idea. When are you starting a build ;-)

Damian (DrWhat)