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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: magnetman12003 on November 15, 2008, 08:45:46 PM

Title: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 15, 2008, 08:45:46 PM
Hi All,
After 30 years of making various all permanent magnet motor devices I have designed something that should work. All previuos model devices I made did not function. This one functions to a point but I need help designing a  rotor.   I figure a hundred or so different folks working on this could expedite a self starter motor device.  It would take me a lot of time doing that myself. All I want is credit for the magnetic box design that I will show you after I downsize the completed magnetic box structure I have been experimenting with.  I will post a jpeg of it here then.

Shown is a SMALL rotor with 5 arms on it in the center of the magnetic box design.  It does not turn because the powerfull magnetic forces inside the box completely envelopes the whole rotors south and north poles.  All North poles on the rotor arm tips face the insides of the magneti rail box.

Clockwise rotation comes by making a rotor leg very long and raising it at least 6 inches or more over the box track and thats another story.

The long rotor leg will turn 360.  This is where experimenting by a lot of different folks can expedite rotor development.  I believe a long cone or spiral shape rotor will work but that is only my idea at present.

No-- I have not achieved a self starting fully operational motor but I think my magnetic rail box is a good place to start.  When I post the jpeg photo of this magnetic rail box  device you will see it color coded. Reds are north ends. Blues are south ends.  The rail design and polaritys---- "MUST"---- be constructed as pictured. Any other way the box setup will not work. The insides of the square box has the magnetic flow going in a single direction on all 4 rails.
 
The corners of the insides of the box are what I would like to call transitional areas. They are not sticky spots and can be easily powered through because 4 out of the 5 rotor arms will always be on the magnetic track while 1 arm is pointing at a corner area.

I would like any person who finally makes a suitable turning rotor to post it on this web site for the world to copy for free.  I am not into this for money or fame. I just would like to be recognized that I designed the basic magnetic box setup given to all for free.  I also plan to make a movie and place it on The U tube so you can get an idea of what I am talking about.   Will do that and tell you where on the U tube you can view it later

Who is interested?

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 15, 2008, 11:03:38 PM
Thks, awaiting for materialised thoughts:) ("When I post the jpeg photo of this magnetic rail box...").
 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 15, 2008, 11:11:41 PM
Hi All,

Here it is.  Make it with stock over the counter ceramic blocks EXACTLY as you see it.  Otherwize it will not work.  Red is a North polarity end and blue is a South polarity end. Note: The box covered up with wood is the first one I made but it is made the same way as the others.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 16, 2008, 12:00:31 AM
@magnetman

Does disk magnets work? I ask because I have about 20 left from other projects.

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 01:00:54 AM
Hi All,

Here it is.  Make it with stock over the counter ceramic blocks EXACTLY as you see it.  Otherwise it will not work.  Red is a North polarity end and blue is a South polarity end. I painted the 45 degree wood support blocks to show that. Note: The box covered up with wood is the first one I made but it is made the same way as the others.  I now included a colored drawing.

Notice how the magnets rails line up in the corner areas.  Use block magnets. I have not used round magnets. The magnets must be staggered just like you see them. The magnet ends are 90 degrees apart  NO AIR GAPS  between the magnets.  In my setup I used 3/4 inch thick magnets. So my staggered end triangles were 3/4x3/4x3/4 inch.    Also shown in my drawing is a 3 arm rotor. 5 arms should work better.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 01:04:24 AM
 I did some thinking about this and I find three resistance points as pictured and therefore would not work as you think it will. I may be wrong but I cant see where I am.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 01:24:57 AM
I did some thinking about this and I find three resistance points as pictured and therefore would not work as you think it will. I may be wrong but I cant see where I am.


  Hi, The resistive points you mentioned are on the OUTSIDES  of the square rails.

The magnetic energy in this setup has a very queer pattern.
All 4 central areas on the "OUTSIDES" of these magnetic rails have a resistive point. On the "INSIDES" of the rail box the magnetic energy flows only one way.  The first rail I made ( with a wood cover) had to be flipped over so the other free flowing side could be used inside the magnetic box.  Now its  identical to the rest of the track rails as far as build and polarity except the magnets are covered. I will later make a new wood framework exposing the magnets.   If you make a bunch of mirror images of this track and place them in a square shape you will find out real soon your setup will not work.  Save yourself a lot of time and construct this as per the drawing and have fun looking for a rotor to fit it.

The magnets in the corners should line up exactly as shown in the drawing with polaritys as illustrated on the ends.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 01:39:06 AM
Your thoughts of how the rails act are different then they will act with a circular motion. They will act as you are thinking when a straight line motion is sought after but not when a circular motion is sought after. You have to think about where the fields are going to attract and repel at and you can not have a field that doesn't have a equal amount of both.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 01:41:17 AM
 I just noticed you added another design that has magnets on all sides, is that what you are going to build?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 02:06:53 AM
Hi,

The drawing and the completed rail box are the same thing except the drawing shows a 3 arm rotor and I made a 5 arm rotor for the finished box.  ??

The track is in four rail sections. When all four sections are put togeter in a box form the magnetic flow does not stop as may be the case in other or circular track designs.  It still flows but hestitates at the corner transitional areas. Notice I said hesitates I did not say stop as in sticky spot.  You have to make and try it to see that. 

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 02:13:14 AM
Hi Again,

The wood covered rail box with a red rectangular polarity painted on it has the same magnets inside it as you see on the other 3 sides of the box rail forms. This is a complete 4 rail magnetic box setup as illustrated on the drawing I made.  Dont let that covered magnet  rail box fool you into thinking this has ony 3 sides.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 02:32:59 AM
 Have you got it to work?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 03:03:29 AM
Not yet.

Looking for help fabricating a rotor that will keep on spinning.  The box rail one way magnetic forces are there. Its just how to make good use of them with regard to rotor development.
Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 16, 2008, 03:04:11 AM
What we really have here – 4 rails with open ends each, within length of  which there’s a magnetic polarity. Metal ends of the rotor following this magnetic “stream”, but not hitting the “sticky” points, because they’re at the very ends. And since rotor’s spikes are odd, it helps to overcome attraction when spike leaves the rail. Very clever.
But does it really turns?
In my believe the rotor will turn freely if push it (but not self-running) because of compensation of magnetic forces of all rails.
It seems better to put magnets at the ends of rotor (under 90 degree to rail) and they will follow the “stream” of the rails, hoping able to jump from one rail to other.
But thank you, very smart approach.
 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 16, 2008, 03:05:16 AM
@magnetman

I understood. No round magnets.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 04:57:06 AM
 I was just playing with your idea using some magnets and you may have something. As for the rotor, I think you will need 5 rod magnets that are axially magnetized would work best and it may be best if the ends were rounded.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 05:55:25 AM
I was just playing with your idea using some magnets and you may have something. As for the rotor, I think you will need 5 rod magnets that are axially magnetized would work best and it may be best if the ends were rounded.


  I am going to give this cone shaped 5 arm rotor a try .  By the way if you reversed polaritys on all the rotor arms the cone should twist counterclockwise and "float" at the same time.  The track forces and rotor forces REPEL each other. I already did that using only one long stacked rod magnet centered and north side held above the magnetic box. The lower south end facing the track swings up to a degree(repels) and around.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TechStuf on November 16, 2008, 06:20:24 AM

Somewhat remeniscent of HJ's linear setup:


(http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/1fig1.gif)


You've obviously studied the work of various researchers in order to get to this point.  However, in order to achieve a tangential force asymmetry, it appears you will require a method of capitalizing on the field oscillations.


TS 



Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Omega_0 on November 16, 2008, 11:26:01 AM
Are there any videos of it yet ?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: gregs78cam on November 16, 2008, 02:34:34 PM
Untill I get my design up and running, I think that I will just try helping other people to refine their designs.  And while I am labelel a "newbie" on here, I think that I can bring some very valuble knowledge to the table.


You have to think about where the fields are going to attract and repel at and you can not have a field that doesn't have a equal amount of both.

Actually yes you can.  You just have to know how to manipulate it.  Search "Halbach Array".  I think it will be the key to making so many of these magnet motors actually work.  Another thing is to always try to make these MM produce movement by attracting rather than repelling.  Over time even when permanent magnets are forced to repel each other they will die.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2008, 08:20:50 PM
Untill I get my design up and running, I think that I will just try helping other people to refine their designs.  And while I am labelel a "newbie" on here, I think that I can bring some very valuble knowledge to the table.


Actually yes you can.  You just have to know how to manipulate it.  Search "Halbach Array".  I think it will be the key to making so many of these magnet motors actually work.  Another thing is to always try to make these MM produce movement by attracting rather than repelling.  Over time even when permanent magnets are forced to repel each other they will die.

Several people have tried to point out to you that there isn't any tangential force asymmetry in your design, so the rotor isn't expected to want to turn.

Depending on the magnets, you are wrong about permanent magnets dying in repulsion. What kills (some) magnets is being exposed to fluctuating fields stronger than some limiting value. For modern NdFB magnets you are extremely unlikely to be able to achieve this condition in a mechanical arrangement, so your magnets will not "die". Magnet manufacturers often display large magnets suspended in repulsion, even supporting weights, and show that they do not lose strength even over long periods of time.

Finally, many magnet motor researchers know that using attraction instead of repulsion produces difficult-to-overcome "cogging" or walls of mutual attraction (energetic wells or minima) that may be avoided by arranging things in a repulsive orientation.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2008, 09:32:23 PM
Observe the 4 different track rails.  I have built four number ones. Look at the magnetic polaritys of each rail. number 2 and 4 are not to be used.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 16, 2008, 10:34:57 PM
 I am sorry Tom but your design will not work as you plan for it to. You can not have one with our the other nor can one be stronger then the other.  Your design closed a loop which created a inner and outer polarity. The inner polarity will have the same strength at equal points away from the center.

 
 gregs78cam, the "Halbach Array" acts like a horse shoe magnet. The bottom of the U is less powerful then the top. You can not have a magnetic field unless it has a north and south and the will always have a equal strength. The same goes for the separate polarity's, they two will always have the same strength from the center of the polarity.


Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: gregs78cam on November 17, 2008, 01:17:22 AM
ok, thank you.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: AB Hammer on November 17, 2008, 01:32:14 AM
Greetings magnetman12003

 A few people here will remember that I have written about a magnet wheel that I claimed in 1974 that I did for a school project. It ran for 1 1/2 days before it tore out the middle of my cardboard center. But it ran in a jerky motion which probably sped up its demise. Wracking my brain to remember what I did I remembered that the magnets made more of a square outer edge. What you are doing is taking me back again so I will follow your progress and help if I remember anything useful.

If you have any questions please ask, for this may help me jog my memory as well.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 17, 2008, 02:11:37 AM
Hi All,

 I have just posted a movie on the U tube Named " MAGNETIC BOX TRACK".  I am not forcing the long stacked rod magnet to do anything. The repel forces work a lot better than the attract. The corners are the jerky in transition areas.  Remember if we use a 5 arm rotor only one of the rotor magnets will be going through a corner area at any given time. The other four rotor arms will be track swinging. 

Using a 3 arm rotor -- at times two of the arms will be very close to a corner area.

Now you can see everyting for yourself.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 17, 2008, 02:25:31 AM
 The video proves what I have said and the link to it follows. If you were to keep the motion in a perfectly circular motion, the effect that I stated would take place and you can see that by the force your you have to over come to try and keep the circular motion going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGrSBNf_O3o

 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 17, 2008, 02:30:53 AM
AB Hammer,
Quote
A few people here will remember that I have written about a magnet wheel that I claimed in 1974 that I did for a school project. It ran for 1 1/2 days before it tore out the middle of my cardboard center. But it ran in a jerky motion which probably sped up its demise. Wracking my brain to remember what I did I remembered that the magnets made more of a square outer edge. What you are doing is taking me back again so I will follow your progress and help if I remember anything useful.


 Are you serious? You mean to tell us that you did this and cant remember how you did it? It would be like the first time you had , a very unforgettable experience but yet you say you forgot?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 17, 2008, 02:34:11 AM
Nothing ventured -- nothing lost.

I see 4 arms on track and 1  in a corner transition or hesitating area.

Math tells me that 3 arms now will power the spin. 

2 arms null each other out.


Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 17, 2008, 03:42:27 AM
@all

The halbach effect is viewed here http://www.overunity.org.uk/halbach.htm

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: AB Hammer on November 17, 2008, 04:30:03 AM

 Are you serious? You mean to tell us that you did this and cant remember how you did it? It would be like the first time you had , a very unforgettable experience but yet you say you forgot?

 nightlife

 My father poo- pooed what I did for I was being a dreamer and I needed to think a real job because inventing was a waste of time. Unfortunately that is what I remember the most for under my father I could do no wright, and my older brother could do no wrong.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 17, 2008, 04:35:18 PM
Hi,

 
This may work as both polaritys of the rotor are not on the same plane as the box track. In this case only the south polarity of the rotor is being powered by the track to move.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 17, 2008, 04:44:26 PM
Hi,

I just have to ask this.

How many folks are in the process of actually building this setup to give it a try? It wont cost an arm and leg. Ceramics blocks are inexpensive.


Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: AB Hammer on November 17, 2008, 04:52:01 PM
Hi,

I just have to ask this.

How many folks are in the process of actually building this setup to give it a try? It wont cost an arm and leg. Ceramics blocks are inexpensive.


Tom

Greetings Tom

 I am doing it. I only need about a dozen more magnets. Besides this project may jog my memory.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 17, 2008, 05:32:02 PM
 I have been trying to figure out the field you have created and I come to the conclusion that you have created a upward and downward spiraling cone like field like pictured which will not work with using permanent magnets for the rotor unless it is allowed to rise up a pole in a spiral motion and when it reaches it upward pressure limit it should bounce back and forth from the downward draw of gravity. If you apply a pressure from the top, the pressures will stop the rotors motion. If I am right, a three pole rotor should work and I would suggest having the spiraling rotor bounce up and down in side of a double wound coil to collect both current that would be created. The field will have to be strong enough to over come the initial gravitational draw back pressure. Another possibility would to have another box placed above one with the spiral effect rotating the opposite way. The rotor should then continue to turn but yet stay stationary within the upward and downward pressures. I would also suggest having one box’s corners placed over the centers of the rails so they are offset from each other.
 Your video proves what I am saying by the way the magnet spirals in a outward motion pushing the magnet up and out as it spirals.




 

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 17, 2008, 06:19:38 PM
Hi,

Interesting---It almost seems this is touching on the late David Hamels cone motor ideas.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 17, 2008, 07:08:42 PM
For those who want to know about David Hamels ideas.

http://www.davidhamel.com/index.html
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 17, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Man I hate this thread. LOL

 It keeps making me think it can work but then I think about it and it cant but then I different idea pops up in my head and I again think it may work but when I think about it more, I find it will not work.

 I give up, my head hurts. LOL
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 18, 2008, 05:39:28 AM
Hi All,

You are going to like this:  This is an extra finding peculiar to this magnetic box design.

After lots of experimenting I found that placing a large steel ball inside the square rail box will propel it like a SMOT in a clockwise direction with a lot of force. I have placed on U tube only one section of the track rails and you can see for yourself what is happening on one INSIDE RAIL  The table the track rail is on is perfectly level..    Click  "SMOT"  on U tube.

I found the corner areas inside the magnetic box is where the stell ball stops but I plan to put 45 degree wood cuts there to deflect the steel ball into the next track. The ball will not travel in a circular form as it needs more straight track magnetic momentum to keep rolling.   The ball rolls on all four inside rails with a lot of force in a clockwIse direction. Wont roll back!     

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 05:56:21 AM
Tom, you need to copy and paste the links to your videos so others don't have to search for them. When you are on your videos page, copy the address that is in the address bar at the top of your screen and then paste it in your comment.

 Here is the link to the video Tom just mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8lNEviCdsA


 I don’t think a 45 will work and you maybe better off with curve in the corners because I believe the field curves in the corners.

 Dang it, I am getting sucked back in again. LOL
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 18, 2008, 05:59:42 AM
Won't roll all the way around, either!

(Don't get mad, just prove me wrong!!)
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 06:12:36 AM
TinselKoala, you maybe right but it sure is worth a try and one thing I noticed is that the longer the rail, the faster the ball gets and you may have to add to the rail to get the ball to move fast enough to go around the curve.

 Keep up the good work Tom, you definitely have my attention.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 18, 2008, 06:27:36 AM
Hi Nightlife,

I cut a perfect circle from an old plastic sewer pipe and it fits my box setup insides perfectly. When I placed the steel ball inside the circle it will roll a short way from where its closest to the track and looses power.

Now if you let that same ball roll straight aways on the track sides close to the magnet rail the ball goes fast. I figure a ball nees a little momentum to pass whatever smooth curve I place in the "ROUNDED CORNERS".   If I can do that sucessfully the ball will roll forever from side to side as long as magnetic power exists.  Right now the steel ball will roll each of the straight 4 inside rail sides with ease and-- no crossovers !

Say all was accomplished--- Of what commercial use could it be except a museum curiosity??

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 06:39:50 AM
 A magnet could be attached to four wheels and then a coil could be wrapped around the box and the magnetic movement would create a current in the coil that could be collected and stored in a battery. That is just one of many ways it could possibly be utilized.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 18, 2008, 06:45:13 AM
Well, if "all was accomplished" means that the ball goes around and around, all by itself, until you stop it--that would be perpetual motion, and it would be a successful SMOT, and it would win a lot of "free energy" awards and prizes, and could be the basis for a generator that really would free us from the tyranny of oil, and Archer Quinn could say, "I told you so", and Omnibus would be vindicated...

Does the term "fire 2.0" mean anything to you?

Why, if you get the ball to go around the square continuously without outside intervention I just might give you the thousand dollars that Archer couldn't win, back in the "20th of June" thread.

C'mon, it's a SMOT !!
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 18, 2008, 06:58:13 AM
Hi TinselKoala,

Never heard of the term "Fire 2.0??"

Up to this point I really never made any SMOT devices but I knew a little about them.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 07:09:58 AM
 Tom, make sure you sand the edge of the transition ramp in to the curve so there is as less resistance as possible when the ball is entering the curve. If it has the slightest bit of a bump, it will be a resistance which will take away from the speed of the balls forward motion.
 It would also be good to see what the field looks like in the corners by using a magnetic field viewer and then create a curve based on what is seen.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
Tom, did you notice TinselKoala's profile picture? It sure is a good concept that would only need the magnets special made to be like your concept but round instead of square.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 10:29:19 AM
Won't roll all the way around, either!

(Don't get mad, just prove me wrong!!)

 Well it will not with Toms set up the way it is but it will and does when the magnets are arranged differently. I started at the beginning of one straight a away and I have made it go completely around the curve to the next straight a way and then all the way down to the end where the next curve will start but I need more of the same magnets to go any further. I am not sure what is going to happen when I close the loop but I do know that the corners are not a problem to get around. I will post a video as soon as I add more magnets.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 18, 2008, 08:44:04 PM
Hi Guys,

The way I see this is the long straightaway is the key in the design.  Its a must that the steel ball reach a certain velocity so it could have the needed energy to go around the curve. Or for that matter shoot off a tracks end if you are working with a single track segment as a startIng point.

The weight and size of the steel ball has to be taken into consideration also. An iron ball would be the best material to use.  I was using chromium steel bearings. The track walls and floor could be made of teflon which presents lowest friction characteristics.  My floor is rough plywood right now and the ball rolls.

I found that in the corner areas there is great attraction ( NO STICKY SPOT) to keep the ball from rolling onto the next track segment. If a very small magnetic track segment was made and placed in the long track corner areas at a 45 degree angle maybe the ball could pass over it and enter the other long track straightaway for another go around.

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 18, 2008, 11:37:24 PM
Tom, I just got home and I am now on my way to get the other magnets I need. The setup I put together is a U shape and the ball does not have to be at the start of the long rail, it even works from the start of the curve. I am having doubts about it working after I close the loop but that ok if it doesn't because I have enough now to take a ball over the top to make a gravity design work. Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your findings with us. If this works as I hope it to, I owe it all to you.

 I will post more with pictures when I get back and add more magnets to the setup.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 01:12:04 AM
Hi Nightlife,

I am extremely interested and excited  in how you made the magnetic U turn.  The track magnetic structure did not allow any air gaps between them so that dictated using a straight linear run.  I would love to see the jpeg layout of your track and especially your U turn magnet configuration.    Wow!

On most other tracks when you close the loop all track runner power dissapears.  With 4 track rail segments butting up to one another that problem did not occur for me.   In a long straight run with two U turns ending with a closed loop who knows?  I hope everything works out for you and you post all.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 19, 2008, 03:09:35 AM
“How many folks are in the process of actually building this setup to give it a try?...
 After lots of experimenting I found that placing a large steel ball inside the square rail box will propel it
- Yes, I've tried.
Yes, that’s what I thought too – there’s no difference, rotor or ball.
But unfortunately there’s no rotation because loop of magnetic field is closed.
The same with one  magnet in rotor.
Will try with 5, hope will see any difference…
cheers
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 19, 2008, 03:36:40 AM
You are obviously using the wrong colors. Try getting some blues and browns in there.

Every working SMOT I've ever seen had blues as well as reds.

No, wait, I almost forgot--

There are (still) no working SMOTs !!

magnetman12003, I am curious to know what you think the problem was with Archer Quinn's various designs. What did he do wrong, that prevented his "sword of god" magnet wheel from working, and also his various SMOT attempts? Did he not have enough magnets, or not a long enough track, or what?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 04:11:56 AM
“How many folks are in the process of actually building this setup to give it a try?...
 After lots of experimenting I found that placing a large steel ball inside the square rail box will propel it
- Yes, I've tried.
Yes, that’s what I thought too – there’s no difference, rotor or ball.
But unfortunately there’s no rotation because loop of magnetic field is closed.
The same with one  magnet in rotor.
Will try with 5, hope will see any difference…
cheers


I did exactly what you did --see reply 42. The round plastic frame inside the tracks wont work. The ball has to roll on the strait section of the track for awhile  to gather up speed .

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 19, 2008, 05:08:36 AM
If only colors could make it run :)…

Yes, speed or shield. Maybe longer track will do the trick…
But again, "strait section" has open ends - magnetic "stream"; loop closed - no gradient, no movement...

But this (attach) magnetic gyro seems spinning a little longer than without this stator; maybe because all field around is equal.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 19, 2008, 07:24:59 AM
Here is a video of the U shaped array I was talking about. It would work better if I had the magnets perfectly aligned and if the track was in better shape. I used 1/4 neo disc in sets of arrays of 4.disc per set. I do plan on doing more testing with this concept coupled with gravity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXZFtUS0URQ
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 19, 2008, 07:27:36 AM
Hi Light and welcome to the madness.

 Good job on your box and I look forward to seeing more of your work.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 19, 2008, 02:44:51 PM
@all

Does anybody knows the whereabouts of a video that showed a washer rotaing in a magnetic field over an acrilic at great speeds?
It was on youtube, I watched it and was looking for it to post its link here as a contribution to the thread, but I could not find it again.
It is a circle of magnets like hamels, but instead of a magnet at the center, there was a steel washer. The circle of magnets was stationary and the washer was spinning at agreat speed on the center over an acrilic plate.

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 04:11:14 PM
Here is a video of the U shaped array I was talking about. It would work better if I had the magnets perfectly aligned and if the track was in better shape. I used 1/4 neo disc in sets of arrays of 4.disc per set. I do plan on doing more testing with this concept coupled with gravity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXZFtUS0URQ
 

Hi Nightlife,

Awsome video, 

Thats proof that a U curve can be made that will allow a steel ball to roll around easily.

Did you use a steel strip insert on the tracks insides to keep the tracks U shape?   Can you draw out the magnet arrangement you used on the tracks U curve and post it?

I see you noted closing the loop stops action. No problem here either as this track is powerful enough to power a steel ball up a grade as I have found by experimenting.   So when the steel ball is close to the end of an inclined grade at some point the ball can fall through a hole in the tracks bottom to start its journey once more on the track below it.  -- No closed loop.

I am fresh out of block magnets right now but I do have about 2,000 ceramic 1 inch by 1/4 inch thick DISK magnets I might try.  I never thought disks would work.   Arranging them at 45 degree angles is going to be a horror story.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Goat on November 19, 2008, 04:17:04 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Is the video you are referring to this one?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrxl8hx9wcU It was discussed in this thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3114.msg45488#msg45488

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 19, 2008, 08:03:29 PM
@goat

Exactly that one!!!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrxl8hx9wcU
The thing is that on one the posts there was a comment about what to do with the working model, and I thought that if it runs at that speed and a shaft can be added, the movement can be used to produce free energy.

Thank you! I will check the link!

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 08:05:28 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Is the video you are referring to this one?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrxl8hx9wcU It was discussed in this thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3114.msg45488#msg45488

Regards,
Paul   

 Hi All,
I got into that spinning disk magnet group and did that.already. It has no bearing whatsoever to this project. Uses electricity.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 08:42:59 PM
Hi Guys, 

 I am a member of that group thats spinning the magnet disk. Been there and done that. A spinoff is what you see in all my U tube videos. I have constructed many projects using that technology.  However it uses a small amount of electric energy to power that motion. $175 will buy you all info you need if you want to go that way. See TRACMAG

I always wanted to construct an all permanent magnet motor using nothing else but the magnets in the project to power itself.

Presently I see a possibility of making 2 track U turns.  One turn a little larger than the other. Take the smaller one and place the ends INSIDE the ends of the larger U turn.   Now we have coupled two open end track U turns within each other. Maybe we could get completete 360 travel this way?  Food for thought.


I like your track setup LIGHT

 looks almost like mine. My inside track area measures 8 3/4 inches square.

Looks now I will try using my disk magnets to make a longer track. I run out of the block magnets.

I have a lot of round wood sewing hoops that old ladys stich fabric on. Those wood rings are perfect and can be bent in an oval shape in a hot water bath to make a track former. They also come in larger sizes and can be found on Ebay very cheaply.

Tom
 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 19, 2008, 08:53:34 PM
You are obviously using the wrong colors. Try getting some blues and browns in there.

Every working SMOT I've ever seen had blues as well as reds.

No, wait, I almost forgot--

There are (still) no working SMOTs !!

magnetman12003, I am curious to know what you think the problem was with Archer Quinn's various designs. What did he do wrong, that prevented his "sword of god" magnet wheel from working, and also his various SMOT attempts? Did he not have enough magnets, or not a long enough track, or what?

   

 His track has to be long enough to allow the runner magnet to gather enough inertia to go past problem
areas with ease.  I am not sure also if he is using the same magnetic track structure we are using for the track rails here.  The track magnetic rail sructure here allows a runner to get up to speed very quickly and smoothly.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 20, 2008, 02:04:56 AM
Hi Tom, the track is aluminum and it too will carry the ball up a incline and you are right that the concept could be used to lift the ball up and then drop it and continue that action and therefore be perpetual motion. I am going to try a track like the one pictured that will be enclosed with Plexiglas.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 20, 2008, 02:47:52 AM
Thks, Nightlife. Inertia; nice example why closed loop won’t work. When system’s closed there’s no propulsion force.

“The track magnetic rail sructure here allows a runner to get up to speed very quickly and smoothly
- Only within length of the single track. Close the loop, everything stops.

How the Tracmag works shown here (magnet in axles, no need for “magnet guard” – black ring of magnets around):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFB-xYL2xWw
No way to get more than spent by motor.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 20, 2008, 02:53:12 AM
Tom,
Quote
Can you draw out the magnet arrangement you used on the tracks U curve and post it?


 I will try to post a better video later .

Quote
I am fresh out of block magnets right now but I do have about 2,000 ceramic 1 inch by 1/4 inch thick DISK magnets I might try.  I never thought disks would work.   Arranging them at 45 degree angles is going to be a horror story.

 The disc work just fine and yes, it was a "horror story" putting my little neo's together. LOL

 It was very frustrating and time consuming and I hate thinking about having to do it again.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 20, 2008, 06:03:58 AM
Tom,  

 I will try to post a better video later .

 The disc work just fine and yes, it was a "horror story" putting my little neo's together. LOL

 It was very frustrating and time consuming and I hate thinking about having to do it again.



 Hi,
I just wrapped a whole bunch of cheap craft ceramic disk magnets set at 45 degrees to a side of a wood ruler and gave it a try. Track works fine also but a lot slower than my huge ceramic block magnet track. The ceramic disk setup should  be able to make a complete U turn radius easily.

 If someone had about 500+ neodium disk magnets and did this his track would really zip !!  He also would have to fight every magnet he used on the track so it would stay put at a 45 degree angle with no air gaps between them.  Ceramics were bad enough to hold in place while taping them.

Taped the magnets in place with masking tape so they would not move. Now I know that using  ceramic craft magnets still are able to power  up to a 2 inch hollow steel ball around. ( slow but sure)  I will tape them to the sides of a wood sewing hoop tomorrow and post a movie of my results. I wont close the loop so we will see what happens. 

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 20, 2008, 01:04:30 PM
Good morning, I glued mine with my wife’s pink fabric glue gun, which my kids are making fun of me for using. LOL

 I cant get the ball to release for it to drop so will have to make the track long enough to produce enough energy to power a magnetic coil to be pulsed long enough to break the draw so it can drop and or go far enough to start again.

 Any ideas?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 20, 2008, 03:19:47 PM
 If we move a resistance thru a magnetic field, we should get a current in the direction of the movement provided the coil is wound in the direction of the movement. I will test this later using a long rail wrapped with wire in the direction of the movement and I will attach a cap to it and have the ball move down the rail and see what kind of voltage I get if any.

 If I am wasting time here, please let me know becuase it is not any fun putting these rails together.
 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 21, 2008, 01:21:44 AM
Thks, nightlife; I’m in this “madness” long enough to see what may work what’s not :).
But please, finish your gigantic track, nobody have such amount of magnets.
I bet it will run in the same way – from middle of track it wont run, it means we’re dealing with inertia.
And most important to close the loop, I guess nothing will move at all.
Thank you very much.
It's not the end yet...
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 21, 2008, 01:29:26 AM
Light, actually it does run from any part of the track, the track I used in the video was a make shift track that was not even or very smooth. Tom is going to use a wooden loop and I cant wait to see his results posted. It is a real pain in the ass getting the magnets put together properly enough to work.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 21, 2008, 01:52:16 AM
Hi Guys, 

Instead of a wood hoop I have decided to buy a clear  flexible  plastic tube and but it up as shown using an old garden hose as a reference.    PVC can be cemented and the drop through hole for the steel ball will be drilled through both tubes where you see the down arrow.  I plan to snake and tape magnets all over the entire lenght of the tube.    That will be a chore in itself.    It will take a while

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 21, 2008, 02:03:55 AM
Hi Tom, have fun and lets hope your done by Christmas. LOL

 All kidding aside, what kind of tape did you use? I was thinking of trying some duct tape because gluing them is too hard and takes too long.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 21, 2008, 02:52:20 AM
Hi,

I just used regular cheap masking tape.  First I cut a small block of wood at a 45degree angle to reference the first magnet on the track.

I glued that block on the track so it was very secure. Then I layed my first disk magnet on the wood block side at a 45 degree angle and taped it.  Every magnet after that was secured by a section of masking tape. I practiced this on a wood 12 inch ruler.  Found however there was some magnet shifting later so maybe taping is not the answer.

I like your idea about hot glueing.  I wonder how a PVC plastic tube will bond to hot glue and if I can stick ceramic magnets to the tube wall using hot glue. I noticed that hot glue when set is a little flexible and that might be ok in making a long curved run.

The hose setup you saw illustrated would have the magnets mounted on the "BOTTOM SIDE" so the ball would roll with ease all around the smooth inside bottom of the tube track "without touching the tube walls" Should buildup speed.

Just before the pont where the dropoff hole is I would snake the magnet track around onto a tube "WALL" side where the balls weight then would be to much for the wall to carry and the ball will fall through the drilled hole between the tubes. Starts its journey over again.  This looks like the most simplest inexpensive way to make a SMOT I could think of.

Whats your thoughts?

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 21, 2008, 03:08:36 AM
 I had thought about using a clear tube too but I am thinking of a different way right now although I still think it is a good idea. I am not sure if you are going to get the ball to drop because I have not had any luck yet but that doesn't mean it cant be done. I also think you are ending your array in the design to close to the start. The closer you get to closing the loop, the more over all magnetic pole effect you get which then makes the ball stop in the middles because the ball seeks the end and in a loop, there are two starts and two ends. Middles, LOL
 
  I have to do some more testing which means more arrays which means more frustration, damn it! LOL

 I'll post some more results later tonight or tomorrow depending on how much I can get done tonight.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 21, 2008, 04:42:26 AM
So what happened to the square magnetic rail that started this thread? I thought that was sure to work. Now the design has changed into the garden-hose tube SMOT?
Isn't this very like the Archer Quinn thread? A promised design is abandoned, while we watch someone learn about magnets, and the "sure to work" design keeps changing?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 21, 2008, 06:31:00 AM
TinselKoala, Toms main concept is still in play here and that is the arrangement of the magnets and who knows, we still may use the square magnetic rail before it's over.

 We are all still in the designing stage and if you have any idea's, please state them.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 21, 2008, 04:16:04 PM
Tom, here is a concept that may work with your square and it may be able to get the ball to go all the way around. It can be thought of as closing the loop but I think having the corner magnets weaker may prove to be what is needed.



 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 22, 2008, 03:42:35 PM
Hi Guys,
While we are thinking about this go back to reply 26 and look at the box track video again. Especially the repel portion of the video. where I had the end of a long stacked rod inside the box track.

Something hit me last night and I have to draw it out to show you.  I finally believe that this simple idea will work as now we will have GRAVITY working for us.

Say you were balancing a long pole on the end of your finger at a given height off the floor.. Now the top of the pole starts to fall away from you. Without changing the height you were holding the pole off the floor how would you try to regain balance once more?  By chasing it--Thats how.


Now figure we had a two or three arm rotor with "one each" long stacked magnet rod hanging from all arms and free to rotate on the arm.
The rotor arms would spread out due to box track repel and the top of the rods ( weight) will lean into the rotor arms causing them to turn by gravity assist.  I am going to give this a try also.

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 22, 2008, 04:47:04 PM
Hi Guys,
While we are thinking about this go back to reply 26 and look at the box track video again. Especially the repel portion of the video. where I had the end of a long stacked rod inside the box track.

Something hit me last night and I have to draw it out to show you.  I finally believe that this simple idea will work as now we will have GRAVITY working for us.

Say you were balancing a long pole on the end of your finger at a given height off the floor.. Now the top of the pole starts to fall away from you. Without changing the height you were holding the pole off the floor how would you try to regain balance once more?  By chasing it--Thats how.


Now figure we had a two or three arm rotor with "one each" long stacked magnet rod hanging from all arms and free to rotate (hinged) on the arm.
The rotor arms would spread out due to box track repel and the top of the rods ( weight) will lean into the rotor arms causing them to turn by gravity assist.  I am going to give this a try also.

Tom


Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 22, 2008, 07:27:19 PM
@magnetman

You are spreading yourself too much. Stick to one model.
I thought you got it all planned.

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2008, 07:35:03 PM
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me...
and he sang this song
as he walked along the billabong...
You'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me...

Those who do not remember history, are condemned to repeat it...
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 22, 2008, 08:59:29 PM
@magnetman

You are spreading yourself too much. Stick to one model.
I thought you got it all planned.

Jesus

 I am and making use of anything the magnetic box rail setup might be capable of doing.  Take away the corners problem and a SMOT could be developed.  I am doing that also.

In the meantime I am also going with what is stated above. Simple to try -- IF you have already made a magnetic box rail track like I know LIGHT  has done.  NIGHTLIFE is working on the SMOT idea also. Hs anyone else started on this or waiting out results from others?

Tom.
[
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 22, 2008, 10:10:18 PM
@magnetman

I have been trying to start the project but it changes a lot. It reminded me juan moran's game at the other thread.

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 23, 2008, 04:22:57 PM
 I just cant do it captain, the almighty powers will not let it happen.

                                 :-\

 It's back to the Bedini for me.


 When playing with the field you are actually playing with heaven and hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZePQxqrL2t4
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 24, 2008, 02:35:58 PM
 I seen this picture on another thread and I thought I would post it here for others to look at.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: 0c on November 24, 2008, 09:46:26 PM
Looks a little like mine:
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/Misc/?action=view&current=KIF_1806.jpg

just oriented differently.  ;)
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 24, 2008, 10:20:38 PM
Hi Oc, have you used it for anything yet? If so, how did it work for you?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: wattsup on November 25, 2008, 04:27:01 AM
@Guys

I wanted to post here for a few days but always felt it is way out of left field at this point.

If you can answer this one question, that I do not have the answer myself, then the great mystery of magnetic rotating wheels will be solved. Here is the question.

Q: Is there a known material that can be used to cover a portion of any magnet to inhibit the field from exiting through that covered area?

Find the answer to that one question and you will solve this in a day. This is really the only question you need to solve so before you answer this one question, put all your, wheels, drawings, etc., etc., aside. Just take two magnets, mark the N and S ends and do lots of tests and reading.

Keep in mind some basic points.

Attraction and repulsion. The North repulses, the South attracts that repulsion so they stick together.
The North repulses against another North that repulses so they do not stick and actually have the strongest repulsion when N/N. The South attracts against another South that attracts so there is no possibility of mutual attraction hence only one possibility left that is "mild" repulsion.

When you look at a top view of a set-up using magnets, think of the magnetic fields as follows.
North Left, North Right, North Up, North Down all exiting the N polarity.
South Left, South Right, South Up, South Down all entering the S polarity.

I consider that the best form of rotation will be with repulsion and the direction of mutual repulsion between two magnets.

So if you can find a way to control the magnetic directionality while neutralizing or greatly inhibiting other parts of the field, then the answer will be obvious.

All the best.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 25, 2008, 05:01:48 AM
Q: Is there a known material that can be used to cover a portion of any magnet to inhibit the field from exiting through that covered area?
-  Any magnetic material (steel; your hardrive magnet with steel back), it will redirect magnetic flux, and “inhibit the field from exiting through that covered area”. Problem is – it does not work as shield to make endless variations of magnetic gates (shield has to block magnetic field, but not interact with magnet; never seen such material).

“His track has to be long enough to allow the runner magnet to gather enough inertia to go past problem  areas with ease.  I am not sure also if he is using the same magnetic track structure
- Yes the same “structure”. Here’s pretty long track, and when alone the ball rolls along. As soon as second rack involved, ball reducing speed and can’t overcome “sticky” spot for entrance to another track (on attach shown where the smallest ball is).
I'm afraid this idea has "dead end" as well...
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 25, 2008, 03:01:33 PM
 Below shows where there to much of a gap for the balls to make it around the curve. I can get the balls around a curve, around a U shaped curve and even around more then 3/4 of a circle. If we built a track long enough to create enough energy to pulse a field strong enough to pull the balls far enough from the end, we could create a perpetual motion. It can be done but it would take a very long track to do so.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2008, 01:49:57 AM
Well, OK, do it.
Borrow some money and buy a bunch of magnets and track materials, and build the thing and show it. If it continues to go around and around on its own, you will have no problem paying off the loans.

It's a good investment, right?
Sure thing, can't lose, right?

GO for it!!


I'll be looking for your pictures of your very long track SMOT perpetual motion machine.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 26, 2008, 02:42:18 AM
There is to big of a gap here.
- If you decries this distance, the opposite force from 2-nd track will be increased, and run gets even less.
Did you try it? Can you show us a video ("I can get the balls around a curve") please. I’d like to see how ball will stop in the middle of the track (if it will be long enough).Thks.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 26, 2008, 07:04:12 AM
 TinselKoala, I am putting my money in the updated Bedini design I have. I am not even going to tempt putting a mile long magnet rail together. LOL

Light, I posted the video before but here it is again. It shows the ball going down a straight then thru a curve amd then back up another straight.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXZFtUS0URQ
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 26, 2008, 02:07:32 PM
@all

I do not agree with the behaviour of this guy, but it seems that he found a way to shield magnets.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=59TOZ6Bdbmw&NR=1

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: wattsup on November 26, 2008, 02:29:23 PM
@nievesoliveras

Damn good find.
Here is one of his other videos explaining the shield as follows

Magnet
Rubber Liner
Tin shield
Rubber Liner
Tin shield

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=agReLN-tGQE&feature=channel
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: gyulasun on November 26, 2008, 05:55:59 PM
Hi Folks,

He has had a thread on his one way shieldings here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4528.0

but naysayers seem to overcome him... :o

I hope he can continue his good direction to a genuin magnet motor.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 26, 2008, 11:25:27 PM
Hi Guys,

I have not been posting for a while. Doing lots of experiments.

The ideal SMOT magnet track should "Draw in any steel ball on the tracks enter point and catapult the ball out at the tracks end without any end of track resistance.   This should be done in a track round or curved configuration.  No metal shielding required.

I just found out how to do just that and will make a movie showing a 2 inch steel ball rolling in a circle continuosly.. I have to place and secure all the magnets correctly so it might take a while..

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 12:53:59 AM
"I just found out how to do just that and will make a movie showing a 2 inch steel ball rolling in a circle continuosly.. I have to place and secure all the magnets correctly so it might take a while.."

From the above statement I conclude that you haven't actually done it yet, you just know how to do it.

This is something we have all heard before, too many times. Why is this time any different? After all, your SMOT doesn't differ in any significant way from many others that don't work, even though they at first showed promise.

Take as long as you need. I, for one, won't be holding my breath.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 27, 2008, 01:36:23 AM
TinselKoala, wasn't you who said we couldn't get around a curve? Not only did we, but we proved it in a video.

 You may aught to start giving us the benefit of the doubt.  ;)
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 27, 2008, 01:39:26 AM
"I just found out how to do just that and will make a movie showing a 2 inch steel ball rolling in a circle continuosly.. I have to place and secure all the magnets correctly so it might take a while.."

From the above statement I conclude that you haven't actually done it yet, you just know how to do it.

This is something we have all heard before, too many times. Why is this time any different? After all, your SMOT doesn't differ in any significant way from many others that don't work, even though they at first showed promise.

Take as long as you need. I, for one, won't be holding my breath. 


How much cash will you donate to a charity of my choice say I constructed it --- and it ran?


Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 27, 2008, 02:16:18 AM
“Light, I posted the video before but here it is again. It shows the ball going down a straight then thru a curve amd then back up another straight.
- I saw it, thks. It’s going nowhere if track will be longer. That’s what we awaiting – video with a long (2-3 feet) track. On short track the inertia, that what's doing the trick; on long track it’s gonna be different picture.

And all these videos showing nothing – stop to move hand and  everything stops, as well as a shields – it’s not a shield, it’s magnetic deflector (like on your comp hard drive magnet), it does not shields, it’s redirecting the flux, so useless for PM.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: 0c on November 27, 2008, 04:11:54 AM
TinselKoala, wasn't you who said we couldn't get around a curve? Not only did we, but we proved it in a video.

 You may aught to start giving us the benefit of the doubt.  ;)

I think I might know someone who would be interested. What was his name now ... oh yeah, Omnibus I think. He's a good man to prove your device beyond any doubt.  ;)
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 04:45:29 AM
No, I don't believe I ever said you wouldn't get around a curve. Why, I've done that myself, several times. JLNaudin has even gotten a 2-stage smot to climb 2 ramps consecutively. It's no big deal, and you don't get any prizes for that.

What's a little harder, as you are finding out, is to get the ball to go continuously, around and around...without Mr. Hand helping it along. If you can do that, there will be lots of prizes for you; and you won't need my paltry warbucks.

I know-- a strategically positioned electromagnet or two will help overcome that silly "wall."

You can have that one, for free.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 27, 2008, 05:20:44 AM
Hi Guys,

Try this if interested.  You might have to make more than 3 magnet spiral group segments. The magnet angles have to be EXACTLY CORRECT otherwise it wont work.

Also the correct side of the spiral magnet group must be used. The wrong side will not work. Ball attracts into the NORTH side.  Comes out the other side with no sticky spot if done correctly.   Clockwise rotation.   

Looks like a spiral galaxy or nebula.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: Light on November 27, 2008, 06:11:45 AM
Tom, I bet it can make several turns if kick it hard :)…
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 27, 2008, 03:04:08 PM
 Here's a idea. use three arrays in the middle that are weaker then the outer arrays with the inner draw start starting at the end of the outer's draw and the inner's end draw stopping at the outer's draw start. Kind of like pictured.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 03:51:18 PM
Well, you've got the device.
Is there some problem with showing a video of it running continuously?
I'm sure, if you call them, the local news channel would be glad to send a crew out to videotape it for the news.
Because it would be news, if you got that "old" configuration to finally work.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: wattsup on November 27, 2008, 06:47:41 PM
Life could be very simple indeed.

There are so many threads on the forum these days that I never noticed the tin covering thread since the idea deserves very close attention. All you need is a small percentage of deviation on only half the north polarity to make this work. I will order some magnets and try it. I have an idea for a new design mag wheel that I have been mulling over a few weeks now with designs. May as well put it on the workbench. For me the answer is so easy when you know the mag field directionality. North out, in median void, out median void, in South, all from 360 degress around. You cannot have a better behaving field then a magnet. Always same power, always same sticky spot. No body cooking frequencies. Now that's what I call devotion. lol

Does any one know of a good place in North America to order magnets?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 08:10:32 PM
I get mine from
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/ (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/)
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 28, 2008, 05:08:36 AM
Life could be very simple indeed.

There are so many threads on the forum these days that I never noticed the tin covering thread since the idea deserves very close attention. All you need is a small percentage of deviation on only half the north polarity to make this work. I will order some magnets and try it. I have an idea for a new design mag wheel that I have been mulling over a few weeks now with designs. May as well put it on the workbench. For me the answer is so easy when you know the mag field directionality. North out, in median void, out median void, in South, all from 360 degress around. You cannot have a better behaving field then a magnet. Always same power, always same sticky spot. No body cooking frequencies. Now that's what I call devotion. lol

Does any one know of a good place in North America to order magnets?
  ------------- APPLIED MAGNETS---------------
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 28, 2008, 03:16:10 PM
 Here's Tom's "magnetman12003" latest video. It shows that things are getting better.

http://www.youtube.com/user/64298

 
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2008, 04:41:47 PM
That does look better, I'll admit. Too bad it doesn't show the ball from a standing start. I've been trying to think of a way to start the ball in a repeatable way so the system can be compared with and without the "stator" magnets.
Keep up the good work, and don't let the "evil skeptics" get you down!
 ;D
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 28, 2008, 05:08:13 PM
Hi,

I did not show the ball rolling from a standing start else someone would say I finger pushed it which is not the case.

Tom.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 28, 2008, 07:17:40 PM
I don’t think three arrays are the way to go when using one ball. I think four and or even numbered amounts would work best because odd numbers can not be divided in to even numbers equally. Meaning that we can not have a equal distance between each set. The total outer diameter would be 100% and odd numbers will not divide in to 100 evenly.

 The video did prove that the gates can be passed and that in it's self is a major accomplishment. Now we should be able to use a four ended rotor design like pictured. This would supply a three to one ratio with three out of four always being drawn while only one out of the four being in a dead zone.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 28, 2008, 07:36:17 PM
Hi,

Thats a excellent idea.

The steel balls would need to be suspended by pivoting  rotor arms

Thinking more about this one could cement a clear plastic circular plug inside the circular track bottom and line magnet groupings on the UNDERSIDE of the circular track as well as the sides of the track. In a staggered configuration   Side- bottom-side- bottom- ect.  All resulting in a COMPLETELY circular but ---"OPEN LOOP"---

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 28, 2008, 07:58:30 PM
 
Quote
Thinking more about this one could cement a clear plastic circular plug inside the circular track bottom and line magnet groupings on the UNDERSIDE of the circular track as well as the sides of the track. In a staggered configuration   Side- bottom-side- bottom- ect.  All resulting in a COMPLETELY circular but ---"OPEN LOOP"---

 That would be worth trying out.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2008, 08:46:28 PM
If the ball will continue rolling, continuously--clearly that would be enough to show overunity or perpetual performance.

Something tells me it still won't do that.

Neither will the rotor.

(By the way, Kohei Minato used an angle of 56 degrees for his angled magnets. Your motor now seems to be converging on a design similar to his (and also to the Steorn London Demo device)).
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 29, 2008, 12:12:13 AM
Hi Guys,

I was using real weak craft magnets when I made the movie showing the 2 inch ball turning inside a circular track.  The magnet group angles had to be near perfect to get this to work at all. What the magnet  grouping angles were is unknown to me but the ball stopped turning after a while.

If someone has someone has a bunch of thin rectangular neodymium magnets and trys this they might be surprised what happens. You will have to experiment using different size steel or iron balls for best end of track group rollaway results.  Maybe more than three track magnetic groups??

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: open maind on November 30, 2008, 05:08:49 PM
LEV2      
LEV2
   

 
Permanent Magnet Levitator v.2.0

This Kit includes an assembled levitator (version 2.0) complete with pyrolytic graphite as the diamagnetic material, 9 neodymium magnets and detailed instructions. A great science experiment, gift or conversation piece. The LEV2 is a smaller and more compact version of our original Levitator.






shield magnetic ( aislantes magneticos grafito pirolitico y mumetal , μmetal )‏

 http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjWdfz9Q0Gc&hl=es&fs=1"></param><param  http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjWdfz9Q0Gc&hl=es&fs=1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 aislantes magneticos grafito pirolitico  :            http://www.seed.slb.com/qa2/FAQView.cfm?ID=1090&Language=ES             http://www.oviedo.es/personales/carbon/grafito%20y%20fibras/grafito.htm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PARA QUE FUNCIONE LA UNIDAD DE REPELENCIA MAGNETICA O MAGNETIC MILL (MOLINO MAGNETICO) SE DEBEN AISLAR LOS LADOS Y BORDES  DE ATRACCION MAGNETICA EN LOS IMANES DEL EJE O ROTOR ESTO EVITARA LA DISTORCION MAGNETICA  Y ASI EL EJE NO SE FRENARA ASI MISMO.

 


use imanes circulares  o cuadrados de lo que se trata es tener una superficie amplia para que los choques entre campos magneticos de igual polaridad sean  efectivos.

 
 
recuerde  esto  fuerza de torsion y velocidad  de rotor =  aleacion de imanes artificiales / recubra o aisle bordes y lado de atraccion en imanes de rotor para asi evitar  la distorsion magnetica /

JUAN CARLOS AVILES MORAN CREADOR Y DISEÑADOR DE LA UNIDAD DE REPELENCIA MAGNETICA (MAGNETIC MILL)

( email manueljose_888@hotmail.com)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mu-metal is a nickel-iron alloy (75% nickel, 15% iron, plus copper and molybdenum) that has very high magnetic permeability. Permeability is represented by μ.
The high permeability makes mu-metal very effective at screening static or low-frequency magnetic fields, which cannot be attenuated by other methods.
Mu-metal requires special heat treatment - annealing in hydrogen atmosphere, which reportedly increases the magnetic permeability about 40 times. The annealing alters the material's crystal structure, aligning the grains and removing some impurities, especially carbon. Mechanical treatment may disrupt the material's grain alignment, leading to a drop in the permeability of the affected areas, which can be restored by repeating the hydrogen annealing step.


[edit] Uses and properties
Mu-metal is used to shield equipment from magnetic fields. For example:

Vacuum chambers for experiments with low-energy electrons, for example photoelectron spectroscopy
Magnetic resonance imaging equipment
The magnetometers used in magnetoencephalography and magnetocardiography
Photomultipliers
Cathode-ray tubes used in analogue oscilloscopes
Superconducting circuits and especially Josephson junction circuits
Electric power transformers, which are built with mu-metal shells to prevent them from affecting nearby circuitry
Magnetic cartridges, which have a mu-metal case to reduce interference when LPs are played back
Hard Drives, which have mu-metal backings to the magnets found in the drive
Other materials with similar magnetic properties are supermalloy, supermumetal, nilomag, sanbold, Molybdenum Permalloy, Sendust, M-1040, Hipernom, HyMu-80, etc.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on November 30, 2008, 06:26:51 PM
open maind, do you have a working prototype? If so, could you post a video link showing it working?
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2008, 08:18:07 PM
Is it really necessary to spam the forum with repetitive posts and rather frightening photos?

Is it really necessary to remind any of the people reading this forum that mu-metal has high magnetic permeability?

But perhaps it is necessary to remind someone that this high permeability means it is strongly attracted to magnets, even more strongly than, say, pure iron? This is why it "shields" magnets--because the field lines more easily penetrate the mu-metal than other materials. IF you design your mu-metal box cleverly, as we have seen, it will indeed "shield" the magnet inside it--because, and only because, it "sucks up" all the field from that magnet. However, it will still be attracted to external magnets. You might be able to balance the geometry so that in some areas the fields cancel and you think there's no magnetic force present. But just try to remove the mu-metal, in that case. You will find out differently.

Trying to construct a magnetic perpetual motion motor using magnetic shields has been tried before, many times, mostly on paper. When one attempts to construct a shield motor in real life, the problems become very evident, and the inventors usually move quickly on to other pursuits.

By the way, if you take a piece of mu-metal from, say, a surplus component, and you bend it or machine it or work it in any way, it loses some of its magical mu-permeability and must be re-annealed (or however they get all that mu in there). So most of us might as well be using soft iron; it's a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: wattsup on December 01, 2008, 02:58:38 PM
@TK

I am putting up a photo of a small standard AC fan motor. The two red arrows are pointing at two copper triple winds that are 180 degrees apart. Would you or anyone else know what these are for to see if such an approach can be used with a magwheel.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on December 01, 2008, 05:18:19 PM
They act as "secondaries" to the "primary" formed by the main power coil. There is a large current at low voltage induced in these 3-turn windings. The mag field from that current biases the armature to start turning in one direction.

Of course, that's just a guess, on my part.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: gyulasun on December 01, 2008, 05:32:31 PM
Hi Wattsup,

I think such motors are called shaded pole motors.  The thick copper wire constitutes a one turn coil with its ends shorted and the current induced in this one turn coil delays the phase of  the magnetic flux in that part of the pole enough to provide a rotating field.

See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor

rgds,  Gyula

PS,  you asked the same question one year ago and I also answered it..., see here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2386.msg68442#msg68442
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: mscoffman on December 01, 2008, 07:04:43 PM
Hi Wattsup,

I think such motors are called shaded pole motors.  The thick copper wire constitutes a one turn coil with its ends shorted and the current induced in this one turn coil delays the phase of  the magnetic flux in that part of the pole enough to provide a rotating field.


gyulasun is correct. These copper circuits constitute an AC magnetic phase delay. They help
during startup to get the rotor to rotate in the proper direction. You would not want your clock
or fan running backwards would you?...the motor itself generally can run backwards.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 06, 2008, 08:11:52 PM
Hi Guys,

I am building this and going to try one of my box magnet rails on the floor to power it in event I cant get the large ring magnet and piston magnet to work. Plan to mount all on a wood sawhorse.

The fellow who posted it said it worked for 3 days until it was destroyed.  Another fellow tried replicating it but Ihe did not make it as illustrated in the video. Notice there is no hand pumping on the bike wheel. Look at the bike wheel "SHADOW" area near the top in his last clip..Right after   "She left me the next morning"      The  setup is self powered.

Hey --LIGHT -- you have some nice powerful magnetic box rails made already. Give it a try.  All you need is two ring magnets and a bike wheel or flywheel , a fiberglass rod, and some fittings.   McMaster - Carr is where I get all my odd parts.  They have an on line catalog.

Tom


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKtIsrc-LHs
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 06, 2008, 08:23:09 PM
Hi Guys,

I figure this might be how it should work.

One large ring magnet is laying on the floor. Its not 2 ring magnets as illustrated. My mistake I am now correcting.

The centerpoint of this ring magnet does not have much magnetic energy to resist the gravity fall of the piston magnet. In this case the swing of the offset flywheel forces the piston magnet to the left side and it uptravels.

Tom


Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 07, 2008, 03:23:23 AM
Newer development- Stand by

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on December 07, 2008, 07:34:02 AM
 I am having problems with exact timing and it has led me to adding sliding frame work. This drops the magnet on the edge and as it pushes it away,the magnet moves towards the middle drawing the rotation and as it slides over further, it then starts to push after bottom center which then pushes the rotation.

 I still have to make the frame work but the following picture should give you an idea of what I am talking about.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on December 07, 2008, 09:01:25 PM
" A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION  "

Which is the title of this thread.

Now, I took some flack here for my skepticism and my comparisons of this thread to the famous "RollOn the 20th" thread.

But, I notice several things.

First, there isn't any square magnetic rail with 360 degrees of rotor rotation.

There isn't a square or rectangular SMOT design that works.

The best I've seen is a ball rolling in a circle, but that's clearly rolling on its initial push, not by the magnets.

And now the thread, and the experimenter, is going off in new directions, without finishing any of the old directions or projects.

Yet, no doubt, the originator still believes he has something new and unique.

So, as far as I can see so far, I am right--this is just the same old same old: a person got excited by some magnets and is off on a manic rush, recreating years of research, rather than doing a little reading and study to avoid going over old territory, yet again.

I'll check back in another week. My prediction is that by then, you will have moved on to yet another design variation that has already been tried and rejected by others.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nightlife on December 07, 2008, 09:34:50 PM
TinselKoala, "There isn't a square or rectangular SMOT design that works."

 I am sorry but you are wrong. they do work but they do not work longer then 1 to 5 minutes and that is one reason we have changed directions. We have not completely done away with thoughts of ways to make it work longer but for now we are working on another project. We do not only communicate here but also by way of emails.

"So, as far as I can see so far, I am right--this is just the same old same old: a person got excited by some magnets and is off on a manic rush, recreating years of research, rather than doing a little reading and study to avoid going over old territory, yet again."

 You are correct but we learn from trial and error and I refuse to except others findings unless every possible way has been tried. Sometimes it's best to do it then it is read about it because by doing it, you could stumble across something that may not have been stumbled across before and every failure leads us to a better understanding.

 Life is a educational experience and the more you experience, the more you learn.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 07, 2008, 11:13:28 PM
TinselKoala,

Exactly what have you experimented with that worked or did not work?

Name a few things and show me on the internet where I can view them and then I can sit on a fence be a skeptic.

History shows that persons like Tom Edison spent years experimenting before he got the electric light bulb to work. And that is the most simplest device I know of even at todays standard.  The Wright brothers put an airplane in the sky with a human riding it with skeptics watching.

I am a dreamer/ builder and my biggest goal is to in some way make a green machine motor device that does not pollute this world.   I dont care if others using the information here accomplish this ahead of me. I will applaud their efforts.  What I post is given free to the world and not ment to be hidden by some self serving patent.

My only hope is anyone who is successful will donate "ALL" profits recieved  to some charity as I definitely will.  Such as the St. Judes Childrens hospital.  I am NOT into this for money or fame at all.

I am a retired 30 year +  commercial aircraft technician who has seen and worked on most piston, and jet engines. I hope only to be instrumental in seeing a powerful GREEN machine come into play before I leave this world.

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 07, 2008, 11:27:48 PM
My flywheel setup.

Building a sawhorse to mount it on right now,

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on December 08, 2008, 01:34:32 AM
TinselKoala,

Exactly what have you experimented with that worked or did not work?

Name a few things and show me on the internet where I can view them and then I can sit on a fence be a skeptic.

(snip)

Ah, so you think maybe I'm an unqualified armchair critic. Sorry to disappoint you.

The short answer is , "Many, many, many."

Here's one good one you can download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wuldel0syug
And one related to the above:
http://www.mediafire.com/?xhtlsgmm2tt
Here's another one you might like:
http://www.mediafire.com/?kg1diqlmdim
And another:
http://www.mediafire.com/?tv3o955ylbx

You could also check out my YouTube channel, although I just started it. There are a few vids there on topics from this forum.

Here's a picture of my "current" project, showing the efficient conversion of mechanical motion to electrical power:

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on December 08, 2008, 01:36:52 AM
TinselKoala, "There isn't a square or rectangular SMOT design that works."

 I am sorry but you are wrong. they do work but they do not work longer then 1 to 5 minutes and that is one reason we have changed directions.
(snip)

If you have one that runs for five minutes that would be big news. Why don't you share it?

Oh, and we should really see it start with a "calibrated push", and then compare its performance with the same push, but with the track or stator magnets removed.

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: 0c on December 08, 2008, 01:47:56 AM
Ah, so you think maybe I'm an unqualified armchair critic. Sorry to disappoint you.

The short answer is , "Many, many, many."

Probably too many! You got anything we can look forward to with the bifilar coils or other magnetic projects?

0c
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 08, 2008, 03:35:59 AM
Hi Guys,

I would like to think that we are all attempting to build a self sustained device that will not only power its own self but other things as well.  Call it a self runner, overunity, or perpetual motion.  Whatever.  I for one am crazy enough to try.

I dont know how long ceramic or neo magnets hold their energy but I was told "YEARS" by a magnet engineer working in a large magnet manufacturing corporation.   Thats why I elected to try permanent magnetic energy as my go to power source. "BUT"-- Cant heat up the magnets or they will fail.

I had hand built many- many  electronic motor devices. Some of them were extremely effecient. But take away the electronics that power such devices and they all stop running.   
You cant power an auto electrical motor by attaching a powered wall socket to run it 200 miles.

Batterys need a lot more development before they can be a viable power source for todays modern electric motors.  ( This is one of my U tube electrical magnet gearing devices.)  I got bored and moved on.   Its up for sale to any one interested.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0jRIUXbDnBI&feature=related

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: wattsup on December 08, 2008, 07:31:24 AM
@TK

Regarding your second video, I always tell guys who work on such wheels that the most important part of the system will be how well balanced the wheel is without any additions. Meaning if removed all moving shifting parts from the wheel and you slowly turn the wheel a few degrees and let it go, it should not move. If it backs up a few degrees or forward a few degrees, this means the initial wheel is not balanced or off centered and therefore at a certain stage in the rotation, the completed system will have to overcome that imbalance. Most times this is what kills the deal. Balancing the wheel is of prime importance.

Last point is the ratio of weight of the shifting components versus the weight of the total wheel. This is where you can develop some inertia if the ratio is favorable to the shifting components. Yes I know even one gram on the right should do it but if the wheel itself is off by a few grams, you're cooked.

My last wheel was water jet cut in solid 3/4" aluminum plate stock then totally balanced and I though it would be light enough but my eight 3/4" steel balls were still not heavy enough. When I get the time I will make another one this time out of 1" plastic stock and use 1" steel balls as the shifters.

You can see it here, just go down from the link point to the images. It's a long post.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3070.msg45101#msg45101

With such a design I am using both the top and bottom parts of each circle to effect the ball. Just as is it almost goes on its own but the wheel weight is just to much. It would work with a magnet system but I am as stubborn as they get so I wanted to do this without magnets. All I need is a slight push for 5 degrees.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on December 08, 2008, 06:27:23 PM
Your point?

My mondrasek wheel is pretty well balanced, as you can see in the videos. It's turning on sapphire ball bearings. An imbalance of less than one gram is plenty sufficient to get it turning.

You claim your wheel would work "with a magnet system".

One wonders why, then, you haven't shown it. The thousand dollar prize would have gone a long way towards helping you do it without magnets.

Please build your wheel and show it running with magnets, as you claim.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 08, 2008, 08:00:37 PM
Hi Guys, Remember those box tracks that first started this thread?

Well if anyone made them they can be used as a "VARIABLE SIZE" huge ring magnet as I discovered. Simply by adjusting 4 box tracks as per the illustrations. No problems with corner areas.when  building the magnet gravity device.

The center point acts just like the huge ring magnet laying next to the box tracks.

I plan to use them if my large ring magnet does not work out building the magnet/gravity motor device.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 08, 2008, 08:02:33 PM
Here is box 1
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 08, 2008, 11:06:48 PM
@TK

Regarding your second video, I always tell guys who work on such wheels that the most important part of the system will be how well balanced the wheel is without any additions. Meaning if removed all moving shifting parts from the wheel and you slowly turn the wheel a few degrees and let it go, it should not move. If it backs up a few degrees or forward a few degrees, this means the initial wheel is not balanced or off centered and therefore at a certain stage in the rotation, the completed system will have to overcome that imbalance. Most times this is what kills the deal. Balancing the wheel is of prime importance.

Last point is the ratio of weight of the shifting components versus the weight of the total wheel. This is where you can develop some inertia if the ratio is favorable to the shifting components. Yes I know even one gram on the right should do it but if the wheel itself is off by a few grams, you're cooked.

My last wheel was water jet cut in solid 3/4" aluminum plate stock then totally balanced and I though it would be light enough but my eight 3/4" steel balls were still not heavy enough. When I get the time I will make another one this time out of 1" plastic stock and use 1" steel balls as the shifters.

You can see it here, just go down from the link point to the images. It's a long post.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3070.msg45101#msg45101

With such a design I am using both the top and bottom parts of each circle to effect the ball. Just as is it almost goes on its own but the wheel weight is just to much. It would work with a magnet system but I am as stubborn as they get so I wanted to do this without magnets. All I need is a slight push for 5 degrees.
       Check this video out.  Its close to what you illustrate

.http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GhR-K10UjnY&eurl=http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Gravity_Motors
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 09, 2008, 08:53:24 PM
Hi All,

I have questions I need to ask.

If I personally  invent something that is a self runner I plan to show/tell all to the world for free and hopefully "ALL" revenues in some way might be directed to charitible organizations

Now say someone on this overunity site does manage to construct a self runner that powers itself and other devices as well.  Its a real working overunity device. ...... All hypothetical........

Say also all information about how to construct such an "UNPATENTED"  device is posted by the TRUE inventor on this site and is now given freely to the world.  All his postings here are time dated.

Whats to prevent some unscrupulous, greedy person from making a bee line to the patent office and patenting this idea claiming he is the inventor? Then have the nerve of preventing anyone from pursuing its development unless he was part any self serving revenue generated from it?

Just what are the legalitys?    Any patent attorneys viewing this site can give advice

Tom

Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 09:20:53 PM
@magnetman12003

I think that the best thing to do is to call the news media and advertize through them that there is an overunity invention that is going to be given to humanity and that it will be done after the news of its existence have run the whole planet. Also say that it will be free to everybody.

Then after it is world spread, release the information to replicate it. Everybody will know that it is free.

Jesus
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: magnetman12003 on December 09, 2008, 09:48:02 PM
Hi,

Thats excellent advise.

In addition one would also have to previously sent all info to many trusted partys. Unknown to anyone but the inventor.

They in turn would dump all that info on the internet should the inventor meet a untimely departure due to unnatural causes.

Tom
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: TinselKoala on February 03, 2009, 04:17:35 PM
Bump.

I guess that the reason we haven't heard anything for a while is that the inventor has perfected the design and is quietly commercializing it. So we should all be selling off our oil stocks before they crash.

Or, maybe, there's some other problem, like...

the design simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: ask on February 06, 2009, 02:41:17 AM
Bump.

I guess that the reason we haven't heard anything for a while is that the inventor has perfected the design and is quietly commercializing it. So we should all be selling off our oil stocks before they crash.

Or, maybe, there's some other problem, like...

the design simply doesn't work.

I might be wrong. But I think you made this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UKcGTcfwo

If so, pls tell the truth about it, I still wonder how you did it after so many sleepless nights.
Title: Re: A SQUARE MAGNETIC RAIL -- ROTOR 360 ROTATION
Post by: arringtj on February 10, 2009, 06:50:59 PM
I believe your wooden box arrays make the steel balls want to reach the end pole like any magnet. Your 45 degree slant arrangment is similar to Howard Johnson's. He created "shaded pole" effects using permanent magnets, however, his poles are 90 degrees different than yours.
IF you are trying to create a force BIAS, then your poles should rather be at the TOP of your ceramics than the sides.
They will NOT want to stay together. They should repel each other and be a bitch to glue in proper arrangement.

Johnson's theory of spintronics posits that both N and S components are present at each end (traditional pole).
By shading (shorting) one of the components, lets's say the S, then the N would be made slightly stronger.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34317/Spintronics-The-Secret-World-of-Magnets-2006-by-Howard-Johnson


Thanks,
Jeff