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Author Topic: Why the potential energy is unlimited?  (Read 21996 times)

Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 09:09:49 AM »
I have no more pictures. If you have any trouble in doing my experiment, I would like to solve it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 09:09:49 AM »

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2008, 09:30:56 AM »
solve it :)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2008, 03:52:10 PM »
Yalin, your "experiment" is incomplete.
Unless you specify how to get work out of the system, or how to measure any suspected "energy gain", we will just have to rely on ALL THE EXPERIMENTS ALREADY DONE that show your operating principle to be incorrect.

What's the matter--why don't you do your experiment yourself and report the results. Surely ballons and buckets of water can't be that hard for you to get.

And what about the idea of not using the balloon at all and putting a valve in the top of the cylinder--you haven't said whether you realize that is equivalent to the balloon situation--but of course without the complexities that lead one to make incorrect kinematic analyses.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2008, 03:52:10 PM »
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Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2008, 04:53:40 AM »
 If in the experiment a ball is used instead of a balloon,
The energy got by the buoyancy of the ball will be 9 times than that we paid.
but the ball can't  be taken out because the air in the ball can't be released in no way.
So the experiment can't continue.
 The point  is how to take out  the ball of the device without doing any work.
 Therefor, a special  balloon must be used but not a ball.
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:24:07 AM by Zhang Yalin »

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2008, 01:26:56 AM »
You cannot deflate the balloon without doing work. The water in the column tries to reach its own level with the water in the pan. It can't do so because the system is airtight. When you introduce the balloon into the column from the bottom, not only are you lifting up an equal volume of water to the top of the pan, thus doing work against gravity, but when the balloon reaches the top of the column the weight of the water in the column will create a "suction" that will resist the attempt to deflate the balloon with "splints" or otherwise. To deflate the balloon you will have to, once again, lift up an equal volume of water to the top of the column to reset the system to its initial state. It doesn't matter how much work you are getting out of the balloon, because you are forgetting about the work it takes to lift all that water, twice, per each cycle.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2008, 01:26:56 AM »
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Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2008, 09:17:44 AM »
It’s easy to let the air out because the atmospheric pressure inside and outside of the balloon is the same.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2008, 05:58:19 PM »
That's simply wrong. The weight of the water in the column "pulls a vacuum" and the water wants to fall until the level inside the tube is the same as the level in the pan. The sealed tube prevents this. As soon as you put the balloon in there, it is the same as putting a bubble, or opening a valve at the top of the tube for a moment. The water level drops by the same volume as the air in the balloon. Now, to get that air out of the balloon, you have to RAISE THE WATER BACK UP. No matter how you do it.

Don't believe me? Get a water glass, a pan of water, and a piece of tubing. Set up the full glass column and pan with water as in your diagram. Now introduce one end of the tubing into the column, leaving the other end open to the air. What happens? How do you get the water back up into the glass?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2008, 05:58:19 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2008, 07:35:07 PM »
Perhaps this little video will help with understanding:
.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPEOPWG_gh8

Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 07:49:43 AM »

No need to make a hole in the device to release the air.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 07:49:43 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2008, 03:15:12 PM »
OK, Yalin, it is now up to you.
Please explain how to release the air from the balloon without raising an equal volume of water back up into the column.
Or, if you simply withdraw the balloon while full, how do you do this without raising up that volume of water.
Or, if you have an opening into the balloon as shown in your first diagram, how do you keep the balloon from expanding from the suction, just as in my video above...and how could your "splints" possibly deflate the balloon without also pulling up an equal volume of water which weighs much more than your balloon...


Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 04:04:25 AM »
Do you mean the following ideas:?
1. In the device
W=G(water)H(10m) ; W(negative)= 2G(water)h(1m)
2. The result is just the same by using a ball or a balloon.
W= G(water)H(10m) ; W(negative)= G(water)H(10m)
If so, the first one is correct, the second is wrong.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 04:04:25 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2008, 04:27:36 AM »
Perhaps we are encountering a language barrier.
I certainly do not understand how my questions are answered, or even addressed, by your cryptic post, Yalin.
Maybe we need an interpreter...

I ask you again, very plainly:

How do you intend to deflate or withdraw the balloon, which must inevitably raise up an equal volume of water?
How do you overcome the suction of the water column, that I have very clearly demonstrated for you in my video?

Yes, allowing the balloon to ascend in the column "releases" energy which can do work. But it takes exactly this much energy to reset the system to its initial state, and there isn't any left over. Remember, you have to raise that same volume of water back up, that the balloon displaced downward in its rise to the top.
No matter how you deflate or withdraw the balloon, this fact remains.

Offline Zhang Yalin

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2008, 07:17:24 AM »

Maybe my device will not do, but the theory is correct. The way to use the potential energy without doing work will be found in the future.


Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2008, 08:18:15 AM »
what if you have the basin sealed as well? wouldn't that eliminate leaks?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Why the potential energy is unlimited?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 01:54:33 AM »
No, Yalin, your theory is not correct, sorry. There will not be found any way to use potential energy without doing work, and potential energy isn't unlimited.
And, FreeEnergy, what does sealing the basin accomplish, except make it harder to introduce the balloon? Leaks don't keep this system from working. What keeps it from working is the mass of the water that must be raised back up to reset the system to its initial state (a requirement for any kind of cycle). Sealing the basin won't affect that.

 

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