Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Plug Heater

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 508984
  • *Total Topics: 15176
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 2
  • *Guests: 16
  • *Total: 18

Author Topic: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.  (Read 13101 times)

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« on: November 08, 2008, 09:51:31 PM »
Like some of you I am on the hunt for the Holy Grail a permanent magnets OU transformer. Most of you reading this have a lot more knowledge and experience in this field then I do so I will try to keep it simple.

It seems there are a lot of inherent problems with a transformer that incorporates permanent magnets [PM]. Most of us know what these problems are from Lenz to polarity saturations and DC pulse characteristics. In simplest terms if you can make the primary coil(s) run off AC and some how have the secondary coil(s) collect an AC current it should overcome the primary flaws of this concept and operate like a normal AC transformer. Of course the question is how can you do this? There are many great idea out there but “none” are “conclusively” working. If there was then none of us would be here. Moving on.

So I started to think. Scary I know.  I looked at all the PM magnetic flux control designs that have a primary coil that can run off AC. I looked at the simple parallel path concepts shown below.  As you alternate the polarity of the control coils the PM flux moves from one side to another. From numerous reports it takes relatively little power to redirect the PM flux. The general consensus is that it creates 3(+) times the magnetic field density then what the coils can produce alone. So “they” thought to put secondary coils around the side connecting bars to collect the flux. For what ever reasons this has yet work. Well you still run into Lenz because the secondary coils are being fed a DC current. So I looked at it and tried to figure out how I could use the same configuration but get AC to be fed into the secondary coils.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« on: November 08, 2008, 09:51:31 PM »

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 09:52:26 PM »
Long story short I simply asked myself what would happen if I just attached an identical configuration to the other
side of the connecting bar [A]? But with the polarity of the PMs flipped [ Shown below]. So now if you connect all the control coils together in the right order you should be able to alternate the current in the control coils in a why that make the PMs flux alternate from one side to another in each side. Now in one polarity the connecting bar [A], with the secondary coil, will experience one direction of polarity [Config 1].

When you switch the control coils polarity then the flux switches sides in both sides and thus the direction of polarity in the secondary coil [A] alternates [Config 2]. As long as the fields behave in this manner you should be able to input AC and pull out AC.

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:55:07 PM »
So my idea is to simple take the configuration shown and bend it into a loop [shown Below ‘Top View’]. This way the ends are closed and everything is compact.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:55:07 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 09:55:35 PM »
Now I would guess most of you would say that the flux line would rather jump across to each other then to switch sides. Though I haven’t tested this exact configuration yet I do believe that the path of lease resistance will be to act like described above. From just playing around with a few configurations with magnets and cores that I have I think that when the EM control coils turn on they will create a path of less resistance then the path between the magnets themselves. If the PMs are closer to the control coils then they are to each other then it would be a better path. Also there is no air gap between the PM and their control coils and there is two air gaps between the magnets. Plus from videos shown on YouTube.com as one side’s field gets stronger the other side gets weaker.

In conclusion, I plan to building this. However before I dump a few hundred dollars again into a build I would like to get feed back and see where I have gone wrong. Or if there is a cheaper way of testing these principles. Or if I have over looked some Law that would prevent this from working.

Thanks,

Tim

Offline BEP

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1322
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 11:51:01 PM »
@nwman

Please forgive my butting-in on a subject I generally avoid. I have enough experience with these devices to concentrate on other efforts.
I consider the following true on my bench. I'll stop before proclaiming them true for your bench. I don't know for sure. They are sure enough for me. I'll use conventional terms as they should be enough to get the idea across.

The are many problems in using a PM as part of a transformer. Not the least is the fact conduction is a part of this even though there is no conventional 'flow'. Nonferrous magnets will not 'conduct' in the needed way. Most 'problems' I've seen posted seem to be nothing more than excuses.
The idea that a flux can be completely redirected or turned off/on is crap without parts physically moving.
You cannot reduce a connected Mag force, you can only change the area covered - compress or expand it while the circuit is near-field. Once it is far-field then you can do most of the things done in an electrical circuit.

So the only way to do what these devices claim to do is to change the magnetic circuit connection from near to far field and back.

Sounds even more nutty? Not at all. 'Load-Bank' is term I am very familiar with. You have common resistive types - just a whopper of a decade box, not much more. Then you have inductive load banks.

The majority are fixed transformers that may have winding taps and they may be switched in and out of circuit to apply the correct reactive load. Then you have variables. Conventional ones with a knob and a wiper to vary the inductance and those very expensive ones that have a set of control coils. They are simply magnetic amplifiers with a fixed load. The gate coil controls the amount of the input power allowed to reach the load.

The main principal behind all the inductive load steps, except the ones that work like a Varactor, is the what is going on in the core.

The core is not a continuous repeated iron layer upon layer. In calculated placement are interveining layers of aluminum, copper or others.

The ones with copper/brass layers have a coil covering the whole branch of the core. When energy is applied to this coil it creates a 'connection' across the diamagnetic layers. So during the cycle the overall core conductance actually varies.

These were neat to understand but the ones using paramagnetic material are even more fascinating.

Same core setup except periodic layers made of aluminum:
As mag field approaches aluminum the aluminum acts ferromagnetic but only during the approach and removal. In short: It can act as a switch.

So using Al as a junction splice or corner overlap in laminations can dramatically change the hysteresis curve.
If you wrap the area of the Al junction with a coil you gain some control over magnetic conduction, at that location.

A lot of hot air above but high perm metal cores or not you must have strong variations in that core with controlled fields over those variations or you will never have much use for the device.

Slicing a gap and stuffing Al in it will not work as mag fields simply expand and go around. Putting an insulator in that gap will do nothing but prevent the full strength of the 'on' state.

Oh well, I'm done. If you can make sense of the above then also understand I've never achieved more than a bistable magnet. Sort of a magnetic flipflop. Speeds were too slow to be of any use for anything. On the ones that would change at useable speeds they weren't wanted after the first test.   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 11:51:01 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 12:48:57 AM »
BEP, Sorry but you lost me.

Here is just a simple picture of the idea. I don't have all the materials to build it but this is a visualisation of it.

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3915
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 12:12:54 PM »
Hi Tim,

I do not know if you have read Josh's research paper on Flynn's parallel path technology?  Here is a link to that page where you can read the PDF paper: http://www.flynnresearch.net/young%20scientist/Josh%20Jones/josh.htm

The paper confirms what Flynn's patent claims: you can sum up or add the flux of permanent magnets (and that of the electromagnets) inside ferromagnetic cores (an armature in this case).

Is this result overunity?  No. It simply makes possible to increase the pulling force of an electromagnet without increasing input power.  And this was a static test. The paper ends with "more research will be done in the quest for overunity operation".  This paper was prepared more than 2 years ago.  I wonder where Josh is now with his further experiments? 

So I think dynamic tests could follow from where he finished his paper in the basic parallel path. It is  100% sure Lenz effect will appear in a dynamic test with a load across the output coils. This is the next step to solve, at least.

One thing BEP suggests to you is to physically rotate the magnet(s) in the setup for changing the direction of the flux rather than to use steering coils for this job. I think this is a good suggestion, especially if you consider Paul's comments and ideas at this peswiki site to ease this task: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:FPPMT:Paul_Noel 

Study especially this too: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:PpathMagControl.gif

EDIT:  I do not say Lenz effect will be avoided by the mechanical rotatiton of the (smaller) magnets but the effect back to the input will be less...  Experimentation is needed!!!

rgds,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 12:12:54 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline leo48

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 08:25:47 PM »
I have experienced a long time to the trasformator
Parallel path but I could not have better results of a standard trasformator.
Now I'm working on a motor Parallel path
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8KvOXWuWU
and I'm getting better results.
 :) :)
leo48

Offline pese

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1598
    • Freie Energie und mehr ... Free energy and more ...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 08:32:54 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline AbbaRue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 09:07:04 PM »
@pese
That is quite an impressive video.
I would like to know how much current it drew from that little battery.
Using such a small battery does look impressive but a current reading would be much more useful.
I hope the inventor posts more info on it.

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 09:09:01 PM »
Thanks for the articles. I separately came up with those idea myself and its good to see I'm on the right track. Maybe!

Quote
I do not know if you have read Josh's research paper on Flynn's parallel path technology?  Here is a link to that page where you can read the PDF paper: http://www.flynnresearch.net/young%20scientist/Josh%20Jones/josh.htm

The paper confirms what Flynn's patent claims: you can sum up or add the flux of permanent magnets (and that of the electromagnets) inside ferromagnetic cores (an armature in this case).


I have read parts of it on other sites.

Quote
Is this result overunity?  No. It simply makes possible to increase the pulling force of an electromagnet without increasing input power.  And this was a static test. The paper ends with "more research will be done in the quest for overunity operation".  This paper was prepared more than 2 years ago.  I wonder where Josh is now with his further experiments?  


That’s what I’m still trying ot figure out. It seems to be no question that the flux is increased. Why does it not produce an equally greater current in the secondary?

Quote
So I think dynamic tests could follow from where he finished his paper in the basic parallel path. It is  100% sure Lenz effect will appear in a dynamic test with a load across the output coils. This is the next step to solve, at least.

Why would an AC transformer work and not my configuration [if the flux acts as I theories]?

Quote
One thing BEP suggests to you is to physically rotate the magnet(s) in the setup for changing the direction of the flux rather than to use steering coils for this job. I think this is a good suggestion, especially if you consider Paul's comments and ideas at this peswiki site to ease this task: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:FPPMT:Paul_Noel  


I have considered this. It just opens the door to a lot of variable that are difficult to calculate. In regard to the “steeping” of the system I have called it a cascading effect. Same difference. I do think this is a logical step for any design of this nature. However it seems that the simple configuration would have enough multiplying effect to achieve our goal. Plus I just like to keep the principles simple at first.

Tim

EDIT: P.S. Check out these two posts/videos. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5425.msg136821#msg136821

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 09:09:01 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3915
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 06:15:39 PM »
Quote
(Is this result overunity?  No. It simply makes possible to increase the pulling force of an electromagnet without increasing input power.  And this was a static test. snip)

That’s what I’m still trying ot figure out. It seems to be no question that the flux is increased. Why does it not produce an equally greater current in the secondary?

Hi Tim,

Well, the increased flux (i.e. the sum of the 2 permanent and that of the electromagnets) will certainly be able to produce a greater output current in the load than the electromagnet alone. But then an equally greater counter flux will be working against the summed flux (normal Lenz law).  Of course this could be already overunity in theory but you actually have to achieve this in practice and I have not seen any such report in parallel path setup like shown here. (I know this does not mean it is always underunity, lol.)

Quote
(Why would an AC transformer work and not my configuration [if the flux acts as I theories]?)

I did not say your config would not work, only I mean you have to be careful how you excite your input coils. In a normal AC transformer the B/H curve is driven between the total negative to positive flux value areas (say between -1 and +1 and the limits are the saturation limits) and a zero crossing is always involved.
In a pulsed input core the B/H curve usually is excited from zero to either (say) either  -1 or +1 and there is no zero crossing. (Imagine, usually most of the experimenters switch a voltage across a coil from zero to a positive value.)
Also, the permanent magnets flux is to be considered too because it also sets a (static) magnetic bias on the B/H curve.
This problem is similar to biasing an active device (transistor, FET, electric valve) with a certain DC bias to establish a so called operational point and allowing the AC signal to shift this otherwise static DC point within a useful operational area. The limits should be chosen to be able to utilize (if possible) the total available and useful range of the device. 

rgds,  Gyula

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 05:34:59 PM »
Does anyone see a problem with this design? Any comments?

Tim

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 09:59:42 AM »
Would anyone be willing to render this idea in that magnetic simulation software? My major guess in this idea is if the fields will actually switch in the connecting bars or if they will resist the control coils and not fluctuate.

Tim

Offline Ergo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
Re: AC-to-AC, PM parallel path concept.
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 08:01:45 PM »
Hi there nwman.

I figure you don't want to hear this (the truth is painful) but a magnet boosted transformer will never perform any good.
It will have even worse efficiency than any regular transformer. Why is this the case?

Well, it's simply that a magnet inserted into a transformer circuit will shift the B/H working curve of the ferromagnetic material.
It might seem like you get four times the output from the device in static mode but you actually only get the same out as if you had
used twice the core area and scrapped the magnet.
In dynamic mode you repeatedly have to force the shifted B/H curve back past zero all the way to the other end. This takes just as much
power as you gained by inserting the magnet... But wait....it gets even worse. When you insert a powerful neodymium into the transformer
you actually force the material close to saturation when switching it on/off and this causes a lot of material loss on every pulse repetition.
The losses is a lot higher than a regular transformer that is working safely away from being saturated.
There you have it. A magnet boosted transformer will always perform less than any regular transformer.

Simply put:
You can't redirect the static flux from an inserted magnet without spending the same amount of energy in the coil. Gain ZERO
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 05:33:20 PM by Ergo »

 

OneLink