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Conventional alternative energy systems => energy and fuel saver => Topic started by: plasmastudent77 on November 08, 2008, 08:11:48 AM

Title: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 08, 2008, 08:11:48 AM
Hi All,

Well I got my 5.5 HP Honda motor running on vapour.

I had to start it on carby, but then switch the fuel off and let the fumes take over.

Construction - its a large coffee tin with 32 mm PVC pipe running into it. The tin lid ( which is an air tight seal on the can ) has 8 holes drilled in it and each hole is 12mm diameter. The 8 black tubes are just 12 mm ( 1/2 inch ) home garden irrigation pipe and it all held together with wet area silicon sealant ( i.e used in bathrooms ). 

Running - I start ion carby, then once the engine warms up, switch off the fuel and let the fumes take over. The tin is approx 6 inches diameter and about 6 inches tall,. I half fill it with petrol, then make sure the 12mm tubes and the 32 mm pipe supplying the carb are close ( 10mm ) but not actually touching the fuel surface in the tin.

I ran it for a half an hour and used very little fuel. Its a rough prototype but works OK and the engine runs with an even note and smoothly. The only thing I dont know about is water injection to compensate for the leaned out fuel mix which means the exhaust valves need water to cool them instead being coole dby unburnt fuel. Engines are designed to waste fuel ( unburnt fuel )  which splashes onto the exhaust valves ot keep them cool.

Feel free to ask questions.
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Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: pese on November 08, 2008, 08:53:11 AM
Possibly that is the system , that was invented before 130 years.
I have read (2003) that first an Water-Engine was working.
But this construction was the reconstruct to  mineraloil fuel.


It is to understand that that WAS an better way to let running also the money ..
Pese

/The source of this knowledge was 2003 offered by prochure and CD !
Have sombody an copy of this ?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 08, 2008, 09:45:38 AM
Well the set up is really half way between normal carburettor and GEET, but yes youare right, 130 years ago people had these systems. My next step is to try it on a car.

In some ways, we can get rid of fuel injection on cars and use this simple system. I'm hoping to try ( like GEET ) with other fuels as well, maybe even a water/fuel mix.

I dont know how it would go in very cold climates, but I think it would need a normal carburettor to make sure it was a rich fuel mix for cold starting then run on vapours.....

I'm hoping to do some fuel consumption tests for vapour vs non-vapour and post back the results.

Cheers

PS77.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: helmut on November 08, 2008, 02:38:13 PM
Well the set up is really half way between normal carburettor and GEET, but yes youare right, 130 years ago people had these systems. My next step is to try it on a car.

In some ways, we can get rid of fuel injection on cars and use this simple system. I'm hoping to try ( like GEET ) with other fuels as well, maybe even a water/fuel mix.

I dont know how it would go in very cold climates, but I think it would need a normal carburettor to make sure it was a rich fuel mix for cold starting then run on vapours.....

I'm hoping to do some fuel consumption tests for vapour vs non-vapour and post back the results.

Cheers

PS77.

Hello plasmastudent77
Thanks for sharing.
I a next step one could test to conect a hose from a electrolyser to the plasticpipe.
It might be of use to cool down the Motor by this way.
keep doing a good job
helmut
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: nightlife on November 08, 2008, 04:02:32 PM
 If gas is needed to splash back on the valves to keep them cool, how does natural gas and or propane do it? Isn't natural gas and propane a vapor too?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: gotoluc on November 08, 2008, 04:59:43 PM
Hi plasmastudent77,

thanks for testing this and sharing your work ;)  One thing I would recommend before you do more tests is to add one if not two check valves which should be available in most plumbing stores and possibly in the size of your main pipe. What this valve will do is allow flow in one direction in case you have a backfire. Add one as close to the carby as possible and for safety add one as close to your fuel storage container.

If you get a backfire without these you may have a serous fire to deal with.

An interesting test would be to try pure Alcohol and see if it would work since you can add water to it as they blends together but try it strait first and see what you get. Also see if you can get a BBQ thermometer to monitor your exhaust temperature since things can get hot when you lean out fuel or use pure Alcohol and I wouldn't want you to burn a hole through the piston.

ADDED:
When you get to the point of adding water to the Alcohol you want to put your fuel tank in a container of boiling water so to raise the vapor point of your water Alcohol mix for the water to be drawn to the engine but take note that to Alcohol will also vapor faster, so the best way to do this is have a separate container for water and fuel and just heat the water container. Use a Y to bring them back together and add a valve on the water side to regulate it. With a setup like this you can use gasoline.

Play safe mate!... I'll keep an eye on your topic.

Luc
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: yaz on November 08, 2008, 06:49:05 PM
Kickass work Plasmastudent77!!

Last week on the show "TRUCKS!"  The guys did a propane conversion on a 2008 Ford 150. They bought the kit and all they changed were the injectors added a pressure regulator/switch and get the trucks computer flashed. There was NO WATER INJECTION to keep the valves cool!!
Whoever said, that you need extra fuel to cool valves is full of it!

The auto makers that program the computer to dump extra fuel so it "cools the valves" is just an excuse to waste more fuel! It just carbons up your engine faster and dirtys up your oil all to get you back to the pumps faster!

Go outside check the oil level in your vehicle and smell the dipstick if it smells like gasoline, that means your piston rings are shot and that "extra" fuel is washing down the cylinder walls diluting your oil and ending up in your oil pan...get enough gas in there and it'll blow the oil pan off your engine!! Mechanic friend of mine seen it happen!  My last car had bad rings and sure as hell the oil smelled like gas!!! Had to change the oil pretty damm quick! Leaky injectors cause the same problem but then the engine runs like a bag of sh@t!!

The carb on my Toro lawnmower doesn't shoot extra fuel down the intake, that must mean that my valves are burnt to a crisp....ya ok! The damm thing only starts on no more than 2 pulls ever since I bought it new in 2001 and not one problem with the 6.5HP engine and loads of power!

http://ezinearticles.com/?Propane-Auto-Conversions---Is-it-a-Better-Solution-For-My-Engine?&id=1518811

The guys on TRUCKS also talked to a guy with a towing business that only used propane for his tow truck and it had over 380,000 miles on it. He said he tore the engine down to rebuild it and guess what?...There was NO carbon buildup...NO unusual wear patterns...the inside of the engine looked almost new and he didn't have to change the oil as often as he did before when it ran on gasoline...duh! Oh Yeah, no burnt valves!!

Not sure where this stupid rumor started about burnt valves but every natural gas/propane converted vehicle does NOT have anything to cool the valves!!! So stop spreading bullshit!

Instead of trying to improve the vapor setup we're now sidetracked how to add a water injector...you don't need it.

Now you will need a fuel heater, because when the fuel vaporizes it cools so after a while the fuel won't want to vaporize that well especially in the winter. That's what we need to work on.

Here's some inspiration...

He cut the fuel injector lines and adapted the whole thing to run on fuel vapors, used trial an error to convert a 1992 geo storm and he's getting 0.8L/100km!! -no water injection :P

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/07/17/john-weston-vapors-fuel-463-mpg/

Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: pese on November 08, 2008, 07:39:57 PM
Sorry for my mistake, i understand this wron. I look for the car system that was running 130 years ago with water- vapor. asolinine and gaz, from them are all type know. That system taht wrk like an normal exposion-motor on minaroil base was existing before with water if anybody know this . post this here Thanks. Propane (campinggaz) als water/Gasoline
(as emulsion - aswell as varor , fume enz) and this things what you discussinge here , i have done near 50 yeras ago
I look for mor knowledges and experiences to LEARN from this-  (Sorry ,that i was in the wrong tread  for my (water) Vapor interest)
Pese.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Chris31 on November 08, 2008, 08:50:22 PM
Excellent work plasmastudent77

Whats the small hole for drilled on the T-piece near the intake? How long do you need to run it on carb before switching to fume?

I was thinking of removing the carb all together, squirt some fuel by the intake and hopefully the few seconds running is enough to get the fumes working and keep the engine running.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 09, 2008, 03:40:43 AM
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback - another reason I love sharing!!

OK, the water injection I can scarp. Just after I posted I wondered about LPG on taxis and how they cope, so yeah maybe the unburnt fuel thing is a diversion.

Safety - Luc, good point. Yes this was al put together in an afternoon so it was first attempt.

Starting - on carby for say 1 minute, then switch to vapours then run on that. Need to keep fuel level up so enough vapours are available,. Fuel heating - good point.  Need to investigate safety interlocks etc for this.

The small hole near the carb was where I was running water injection but too much H2O as it will stop the motor, so have to experiment more. Now that its a pile of hooey about water injection for valve cooling, it may not be needed  :-)

I'll try other fuels as suggested Luc, and let you know. 95% ethanol will be one test...

Will post back soon.

Cheers


Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: crashhh on November 09, 2008, 07:49:50 AM
Deja Vue!  I built virtually the same thing in 1981, including the pipes. 
Only difference was that I built a perspex box with a float at one end to keep the fuel level constant instead of the can.  I attached it to the air intake of the carburetor of an old Datsun 1000 station wagon, and it worked.
A few problems I encountered were as follows.
First, additives will be left behind in the liquid fuel as they don't evaporate at the same rate.  In my case the Datsun required leaded fuel, which was being left within the liquid.  It pinked it's brains out when accelerating.
Secondly, the evaporation also carries away thermal energy from the liquid, and so it cools very rapidly.  As the evaporation rate is affected to a very large extent by the temperature the engine will quickly lean out if that heat is not replenished constantly.
It's quite important to keep the liquid at a constant temperature or your fuel usage will vary markedly between a rich mixture, and one that won't sustain combustion.
I don't know whether to congratulate you or not.  If I do, then I am also effectively patting myself on the back as well.
I did race off to the patent office, and discovered that Chrysler already had an evaporator patented, and so did Honda, though they were both quite different to this in how they worked.  The Honda one was quite interesting.  It was a circular chamber sort of like a snail shell, with the head end below a carburetor and the spiral finishing at the inlet port.
All the best!
Vince
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 11, 2008, 04:16:52 AM
At Plasma Student. Got this From Naresh (the GEET guys) for you ;D

it kind of looks like only the lighter fractions are getting evaporated?.
Is there exhaust heat used to evaporate all fractions of the petrol
together evenly?Is there an exhaust pipe inside the big PVC pipe?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!! - UPDATE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 12, 2008, 12:14:08 AM
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated! :D

OK - I tried some other fuels in my "coffee tin vapour maker" and this is what happened:

(1) Fuel was 95% ethanol ( methylated spirits bought at local supermarket ) - ran fine. Runs up to full power and runs smoother and QUIETER than petrol and exhaust smells very clean by comparison to petrol. Power sounded a little down ( I dont have a dyno to test properly ) but you would expect that as alcohol has less calorific value per kg than petrol. Would be a suitable fuel if needed.


(2) Added water to 95% ethanol fuel alcohol, so the fuel mix was 40% water, 60 % alcohol. Ran OK, but a little inconsistent and had to ease the throttle open gradually to stop misfires ( due to water vapour I think ). Ethanol absorbs water, so water and alcohol are a good to use together. This misfiring might improve when I pre-heat the fuel. I'll let you know.....

I also noted I needed more air with ethanol than when running on petrol, so that the air-fuel ratio needs to be higher. I opened up the feed pipe so more air went in and the combsution settled down and was more stable. I'll test this some more and report back.


An important point here - this is NOT GEET. It is a fuel vapour system. It is really a 1/2 GEET system if you want to call it that as it is using only 1/2 the setup. GEET uses fully recycled exhaust vapours going into the fuel tank to go "closed loop". I am not doing this - I am using fuel vapour evaporation to produce fumes and is "open loop".

The next step will be putting the fuel tin in a bucket of hot water so the fuel is preheated to produce fuel vapour more consitently. As the fuel cools down, even through it turning to vapour, the tin gets colder and colder and so vapour production slows down and slows down so that the engine eventually stops.  A fuel heater ( the bucket of hot water ) is safe and will allow me to test over a longer period. If this system was on a car, I would expect the exhaust gas or radiator water be used to pre-heat the fuel.

Cheers,

PS77

Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Chris31 on November 12, 2008, 01:17:45 AM
@plasmastudent77

Did you get to test right down to empty fuel tank?

The fuel evaporates quicker than water, so the engine is using the fuel and then leaving the water behind.

I have not built a GEET Im wondering if this same thing happens to GEET? proper fuel are consumed but water and junk mostly stays behind...

This is probably why the mixture get leaner and leaner as the engine consume the fuel...if that make sense  ::)

Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 12, 2008, 02:39:42 AM
Hi

I havent run it down to empty as I've only really started doing this, however what you say makes sense.
My thinking is that if the fuel is clean ( eg alcohol+water  ) then over a period of time after say a few tanks of fuel, maybe the engine would be cleaned up and the exhaust would run clean enough to produce very little gunk. I suspect after a period of time the fuel tank would have to be emptied, however the fuel+water emulsion would have to result in some of the water being consumed at least, if only as steam.

One thing that does stick out is that even fuels thought generally unusable ( I havent tried diesel yet - next on the list ) might be usable. I think though that the GEET process of recycling the exhaust into
the fuel tank to aerate the fuel and make sure the different fuels are mixed up properly ( mixing I think is important ) then all of a sudden you expand the capabilities of an engine. With vapour or GEET
you might also be able to mix say a small ammount of alcohol ( acting as a solvent and producing highly combustible fumes to get combustion going ) and vegetable oil  ( the fuel ) and produce an overall usable fuel. I think this is a good step forward.

I also think its possible tio use say HHO as a starter fuel, or even as a necessary additive to allow the combustion of say heavy vegetable oil ( better suited to diesel usage ) in an engine that normally uses petrol.

All this is to be explored yet, but I think the possibilities are intersting. If oil went up drastically again in price, or we had a serious war that dried up most fuels ( highly likely ), this technology would allow folks to be able to at least move around, rather being held "hostage" at home by high fuel prices or non existant normal fuel supplies.

I think older carburetor engines and diesels are better suited to this type scenario, but fuel injected engines could be used but need to have the injectors disabled and turned into vapour systems or crude carburetors fitted to them - which isnt hard to do. I used PVC pipe and a coffee tin to prove how easy it is.

Food for thought.....I'll update this thread as tests continue.

Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: ashtweth_nihilisti on November 12, 2008, 02:43:01 AM
Chris and plasma student, please send me an email i have a GEET file or you both that you will need.
ashtweth@gmail.com

@ Stefan please send me one too. ;D

Ash
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: gourdman on November 12, 2008, 03:58:59 AM
Hey guys I just built a Geet system on a small BS engine and have been running some tests using Gasoline motor oil and water. The engine seems to consume more water than gas and oil but it mixes the oil and water together so well it does not want to seperate. It becomes a pudding like substance, but still runs the engine well.I have been injecting some HHO into the engine intake and it seems to help it run smoother. Tomarrow I'm going to try injecting it into the bubbler tank.I also tried a plasma spark but it stalled the engine. I think it makes the fuel burn so well that the timming needs to be retared but I can't do that with this engine.
I need to do some complete fuel tank burns to see better test results. hopefully tomarrow.
 Keep up all your good work this is Kool stuff.
   
   Gourdman
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: gotoluc on November 12, 2008, 06:03:17 AM
@plasmastudent77

Did you get to test right down to empty fuel tank?

The fuel evaporates quicker than water, so the engine is using the fuel and then leaving the water behind.

I have not built a GEET Im wondering if this same thing happens to GEET? proper fuel are consumed but water and junk mostly stays behind...

This is probably why the mixture get leaner and leaner as the engine consume the fuel...if that make sense  ::)

Hi Chris31, you are correct!  when you combine fuel and water in the same tank (even if you heat it) the fuel will be consumed faster. It has been reported with GEET developers also. This is why I have suggested a separate tanks, one for water and one for fuel. A Y connector to recombine them and a valve on the water tank for regulation. The water should be heated just before the boiling point 195 degrease Fahrenheit, which is exactly the temperature of engine coolant fluid at normal before it goes through the radiator, so that could be used to heat the water for a car application. The fuel needs no heating unless you have cold weather but the fuel should not be heated any more than 80 degrease Fahrenheit.

Luc
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 13, 2008, 06:39:23 AM
Hi Ash

Email sent.

Hi Luc

What benefit is the dual tank system? I'm not being negative, just curious......and are you talking the dual tank on GEET, or the vapour system Ive got?

Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: gotoluc on November 13, 2008, 07:20:16 AM
Hi Ash

Email sent.

Hi Luc

What benefit is the dual tank system? I'm not being negative, just curious......and are you talking the dual tank on GEET, or the vapour system Ive got?

Cheers

PS77

Hi plasmastudent77,

I am suggesting it for your vapor system!... as you know the vapor point of water is at a higher temperature than alcohol or gasoline, so if you heat only water (in its own container) before the boiling point you should be able to produce a good quantity of water vapor and still use a small container. You can start testing using one container at first but if you try to run it for a long time and find the engine stalls before the container level gets low then chances are that all the fuel has vaporized and only water is left but if you have 2 containers and have valves on each to regulate quantity only then will you be able to send as much water vapor as the engine can handle and achieve a better mixture control and a much better accuracy of calculating how much of each fluid has changed to vapor in your testing period.

Hope this helps

Luc
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: alan on November 13, 2008, 03:19:58 PM
Has vaporizing using microwave resonance already been considered or tried, to create mist from gasoline?
As like mist can be formed from water using this technique.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: PhiScience on November 13, 2008, 06:26:02 PM
Hi alan,
Ultrasonic vaporization of the water may be better, for one it takes less energy than heating it with a microwave, also the water vapor will be entering the combustion chamber colder and denser. This will allow it to expand even more when it is super heated in the combustion chamber producing more power.
Just a thought. 
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: alan on November 13, 2008, 06:58:21 PM
How about ultrasonic vaporization of gasoline?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on November 13, 2008, 11:07:35 PM
Hi All,


Great suggestions from everyone, so I'll give it a try one at a time.
Any ideas about what ultrasonic vapourizers cost? I may have to explore my old camping kettle first if vapourizers are pricey.

Luc that makes sense - in a way its trying to find optimum air/fuel vapour density for the engine. I'll still heat the fuel to keep it a constant temp. One of my next fuels to try vapourizing is diesel - I suspect it will work and if it does I'll be excited - it means you could in theory drive a normal engine possibly on vegetable oil ( with a small ammount of a solvent like petrol included...)

OK - Results to date -

On 95% ethanol ( alcohol ) the engine consumed 0.88 Litres/hour of running at full throttle ( but no load ). I'm assuming some loss to the atmosphere of fuel of say 10%, so that might bring consumption closer to 0.8 L/hour.

To put it in perspective, at highway speeds of 110 km/h ( 70mph ) cruising for an hour, a typical car would consume 8 L/100 km at 100 km/h ( e.g. a Toyota Camry ) so in effect 8 L/hour of petrol ( not alcohol ) . Obviously a car weighs a lot more, and the engine is loaded and its *not* running at full RPM either, where as the 5 HP Honda is running about 2/3 full throttle.

I''m hoping to try running on petrol vapour this weekend and see how much it consumes, then try running it on petrol through the carburettor and see how we go. I'll post the rsults back once done.

The diesel results will be interesting.

Cheers

PS77

 
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: CowboyRX on November 13, 2008, 11:32:41 PM
As long as we are talking about ultrasonics, take a look at this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTAaslsj6Q
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: demios on November 14, 2008, 03:09:48 AM
Hey there guys, I see you're into vaporization :) I see some nice approaches, and I'm glad that you share them. I have extensively read about ALKANE cracking and usage of catalysts, pressure and temperature to complete the cracking. To avoid writing all that I know on this subject, all over again, I'll paste you two messages that I wrote to our friend gotoluc and a guy named tsimonin. Luc, I hope this is OK with you, since I know you're planing on building GEET-like device.

My YouTube message to "gotoluc":


Hi Luc,

since you're making GEET type device, please take a look at a work of a YouTouber named "tsimonin" (http://www.youtube.com/user/tsimonin). He did a lot of R&D on fuel vaporization and heat treatment of it.

Also, this is the mail I sent to him. I do not know whether he received it, or not, so simply send me some response to this mail. Here it goes:

I've read an year ago C.N.Pogue's patents, and eventually seen George Wiseman's instruction of the Hyco2A cold vaporizer - just look for it on YT or GoogleVideo. That gave me some ideas about additionally heating the petrol vapors, even before I've seen Paul Pantone's GEET technology. Most recently I've seen Allen Caggiano's FIVS III carburettor.

It's a device shaped like a tube (H 12" x W 3.5"), with a screw-on lid on the bottom and a screw-on cone on it's top. The cone is connected to a copper line, which is coupled to a pressure reducer. Inside, the cylinder is plated in Platinum, because it causes petrol molecules (chemical group called alkanes) to fall apart. Inside, there are also 4 nickel plated Neo magnets (high temperature endurable) placed in a shape of a cross. In between them the petrol passes and further brakes down. Petrol is sprayed in the cylinder by a high pressure petrol pump (200-250 PSI). It is preheated by an 950W heating element, so when it is sprayed into the cylinder with a 250 PSI pump, it reaches some 750 deg.F, but does not explode, because there's no sufficient oxygene niside :) Then, it vaporizes instantaneously and enters the strong magnetic field, where it decomposes additionally to form methane gas and alcohols (see alkane cracking on Wikipedia). At all times the vapors are in contact with the Platinum and Nickel, which act as catalysts in alkane cracking process. Here's a link: http://www.schuldenbuerger.de/FivsGenIIIA.htm . Look around the site (click on every button to get the appropriate pictures), because it is not well organized.

So, here's a small concept drawing (done in MS Paint, so it isn't really great, but not bad either :) ), with the engine viewed from the top and an HHO cell. Tube design (configuration +nn-nn+) is such that the innermost and outermost tubes are welded together to form the bubbler, as you can see in the drawing. The produced HHO is introduced into the innermost hole (of the smallest diameter tube) in an ordinary fashion (as it is always done with bubblers), in order to preserve space under the hood.

I added a copper line, that's supposed to return some of the exhaust gases into the fuel bubbler, their amount can be controlled via needle valve (this part can be excluded, if it presents a potential problem in the system). I also added another needle valve for fresh air intake, which can(should) be heated to further enhance the vaporization. I didn't draw the fresh air warming system, because it would make the picture even more complicated, but it can be done, as you already know, by coiling it around the exhaust lines etc.

After the fuel vapors have been created, they move towards the exhaust pipe, that goes under the engine (painted in blue color), and coil around it to pick up heat, and then they proceed upwards towards the carburettor (I didn't draw it, instead I drew two adjacent circles, which represent the beginning of the intake manifold, just under the carburettor).

HHO and fuel vapors should meet in the carburetor, in some way. This should be determined by the particular type of the carburettor, as it is a matter of convenience.

I was really pleased to see that your work is very similar to my concepts, and hereby I offer you my point of view on the subject. You are free to use them in any way.

Further I think, we should use nickel plating (because it is cheaper than platinum plating) and magnetic fields to crack the fuel completely.

Best of luck!

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=concept1xz2.png

Hope this helps in some way :) Good luck.

And now, my letter to "tsimonin":

I've read an year ago C.N.Pogue's patents, and eventually seen George Wiseman's instruction of the Hyco2A cold vaporizer - just look for it on YT or GoogleVideo. That gave me some ideas about additionally heating the petrol vapors, even before I've seen Paul Pantone's GEET technology. Most recently I've seen Allen Caggiano's FIVS III carburettor.

It's a device shaped like a tube (H 12" x W 3.5"), with a screw-on lid on the bottom and a screw-on cone on it's top. The cone is connected to a copper line, which is coupled to a pressure reducer. Inside, the cylinder is plated in Platinum, because it causes petrol molecules (chemical group called alkanes) to fall apart. Inside, there are also 4 nickel plated Neo magnets (high temperature endurable) placed in a shape of a cross. In between them the petrol passes and further brakes down. Petrol is sprayed in the cylinder by a high pressure petrol pump (200-250 PSI). It is preheated by an 950W heating element, so when it is sprayed into the cylinder with a 250 PSI pump, it reaches some 750 deg.F, but does not explode, because there's no sufficient oxygene niside :) Then, it vaporizes instantaneously and enters the strong magnetic field, where it decomposes additionally to form methane gas and alcohols (see alkane cracking on Wikipedia). At all times the vapors are in contact with the Platinum and Nickel, which act as catalysts in alkane cracking process. Here's a link: http://www.schuldenbuerger.de/FivsGenIIIA.htm . Look around the site (click on every button to get the appropriate pictures), because it is not well organized.

So, here's a small concept drawing (done in MS Paint, so it isn't really great, but not bad either :) ), with the engine viewed from the top and an HHO cell. Tube design (configuration +nn-nn+) is such that the innermost and outermost tubes are welded together to form the bubbler, as you can see in the drawing. The produced HHO is introduced into the innermost hole (of the smallest diameter tube) in an ordinary fashion (as it is always done with bubblers), in order to preserve space under the hood.

I added a copper line, that's supposed to return some of the exhaust gases into the fuel bubbler, their amount can be controlled via needle valve (this part can be excluded, if it presents a potential problem in the system). I also added another needle valve for fresh air intake, which can(should) be heated to further enhance the vaporization. I didn't draw the fresh air warming system, because it would make the picture even more complicated, but it can be done, as you already know, by coiling it around the exhaust lines etc.

After the fuel vapors have been created, they move towards the exhaust pipe, that goes under the engine (painted in blue color), and coil around it to pick up heat, and then they proceed upwards towards the carburettor (I didn't draw it, instead I drew two adjacent circles, which represent the beginning of the intake manifold, just under the carburettor).

HHO and fuel vapors should meet in the carburetor, in some way. This should be determined by the particular type of the carburettor, as it is a matter of convenience.

I was really pleased to see that your work is very similar to my concepts, and hereby I offer you my point of view on the subject. You are free to use them in any way.

Further I think, we should use nickel plating (because it is cheaper than platinum plating) and magnetic fields to crack the fuel completely.

Best of luck!

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=concept1xz2.png

This is basically all there is on vaporizing the petrol. The devices may and will vary, but the principles are the same > heat, pressure, catalysts. Look inside your car engine compartment and see how much space you have left, and accordingly to that make a simple drawing on a paper in which you'll position new components for cracking and vaporizing fuel.

A small guideline as how NOT TO overlean the mixture > If your car's idle speed on petrol is (for example) 850 rpm, and you CHANGE the fuel, the idle speed MUST REMAIN THE SAME !!! In other words, set the amount of fuel to the exact point where your car has the same idle speed as on petrol. That way, you can be sure that the engine is not running lean. However with some fuels, such as LPG (as in my car) the mixture IS right, but the LPG burns hotter than petrol (some 50-100 deg C hotter). This MAY lead to burning your valve seats, BUT it depends on the ALLOY of the valve seats. In most cars (90%) there are NO problems. Some cars on the other hand should use engine oils with INCREASED amount of PHOSPHORUS (MOTUL has an oil additive which is designed to be added if you're using LPG - it has high P content). Flashlube is also used to lubricate the valves and seats, since there's no petrol additives in the LPG. But most people think that engines designed to run on UNLEADED petrol should have no problems at all.

If you have any questions please ask. I am working on a different vaporizer right now, so the pictures above are OLD diagrams. Bye!
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: alan on November 14, 2008, 04:40:48 PM
As long as we are talking about ultrasonics, take a look at this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTAaslsj6Q
Very cool exp.
Now an other jug with water with an ultrasonic transducer @ water freq., and the hoses of both jugs combine and maybe heat up the mix of vapours, which seems to me easier than heating up the whole liquid.

Another way of pre-heating maybe can be accomplished with induction heating, no limits to that.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: tishatang on December 02, 2008, 05:02:50 AM
Hi PS77 and all

Here is a link to an ebay item when you want to convert a bigger engine to vapor system.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160299975861&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=160293744985&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m183&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%26itu%3DUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4

It looks similar to an old SU carb design that give variable venturi and jet over the whole rpm range.  Easy to richen or lean fuel mixture.  It seems to me, once you are generating vapor, you can just turn off the whole EFI system.  Run a modern car with no computer?  May be just the thing for GEET modified car engine, adjusts for varying and speed.

tishatang
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: CrazyEwok on December 02, 2008, 07:32:20 AM
Just some ideas to help you out.
The thing with fuel vapour systems is that they need Power right? in order to operate properly and i hope some of the HHO guys are reading this. Look up 'Tesla Turbine' on google and look at all the pretty clear plastic jobs... Now watching this i came up with 2 ideas...
1. Attaching a small alternator/generator on the front of a turbo using its high rpm to generate the power needed to vapourize fuel / generate HHO
2. On the exhaust (after turbo if attached) Place a heat resistant Tesla turbine with an electric generator / Alternator attached... if thought out properly i think this could solve a lot of the power production problems... (also if it works as well as i think you may be able to remove your alternator from your engine and free up some power) With it attached to the exhaust it would potenially be able to produce more power when the engine revs up to replace the reserves lost... but that is further down the track.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: robbosdog on December 25, 2008, 07:20:52 AM
Hi Guys ,
   I have been working on a GEET system for a four cylinder engine its much the same as most but I have been wondering if my system would be worth the effort.
I have designed mine by looking at what cylinder is exhausting hot gas and which cylinder is sucking in its charge.
I then route the required intake through the required exhaust to get the best gain from the GEET theory ( if I understand it correctly ) , this means making four rods and doing a lot of welding and bending to get this “ double acting tuned pulse system” , its actually possible ( if one uses a two stage inlet ) to get the intake lengths identical. 
My goal is to run it on water and this means the rod will have be  a different length , the problem is that once this system is make it cant be altered so it means a rebuild after each mod.
I think that a lot of the problems people have getting the claimed / expected results comes down to a single cylinder engines is sucking and blowing at different times and the electromagnetic charge one gains from the centre iron rod may only be present while the gases are actually flowing ( or at their strongest at least ) . That’s why I have decided to use a multi cylinder engine .

If we assume a four cylinder engine fires in the 1.3.4.2. order and we utilize the above theory it would run as follows ( I think )

 Cyl 2 exhausting and Cyl 4 intake :  so intake trunk four runs horizontally through Cyl 2 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 3 exhausting and Cyl 1 intake :  so intake trunk one runs horizontally through  Cyl 3 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 4 exhausting and Cyl 3 intake :  so intake trunk three runs horizontally through  Cyl 4 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 1 exhausting and Cyl 2 intake :  so intake trunk two runs horizontally through  Cyl 1 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

So see any floors ?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Yucca on December 29, 2008, 01:40:28 AM
Great work all you guys with vapour and GEET systems.

The car in the vid below uses a vapor carb and gets 96mpg, 0...60 in under 5 secs.

The car was developed by a handful of guys! The big car manufacturers are schmucks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWwtTuttJ-0&feature=related
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on March 31, 2009, 06:19:27 AM
Hi

I had a thought on how to improve my vapour system.

I figured ( see pics on page 1 ) that having holes in the top of the can likely lets vapour out before its burnt.

So i figured maybe having a long air inlet tube attached to the side of the tin and have fuel in the bottom of the tin. You could also have a second tin connected tot he first tin by a tube, so that you could have a richer mixture of fuel in the air/fuel mix - this could be useful in colder climates where a richer mix is needed to start and run.

I might try and build this second version and post back.

Cheers

PS77

Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Spewing on March 31, 2009, 10:24:39 AM
Could you give instructions or explanation to what you have done? The Start of the thread clearly shows you have done something, But all i can do is look and wonder what it is exactly that you are doing. I think one small sentence could clear it up.

Assuming from your photo its made me think you are somehow heating the gas and making it become a vapor? If so how about a photo of your fuel heater? I read something about you using HHO since i only read your post and ignore everyone Else's, I'm still confused to what it is that you're doing. How about a little Enlightenment?

BTW, thanks for sharing dude, your work is looking very interesting indeed!
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on April 01, 2009, 12:54:25 AM
Hi spewing



Ok, my plon was to create a coffee tin vapouriser. I grabbed a coffee tin, punched a 32mm ( 1  1/4 inch ) daimeter hole in the tin lid, connected a pvc drain pipe which I got from a hardware store, leading from the tin lid direct to the carburettor air intake on the engine. I put the tin lid back on the tin.

I punched 8 half inch diamter holes in the lid to let in air so it combined with the fuel vapours.

I drained the carburettor of petrol.

I put petrol in the tin to depth of 1 inch roughly. ( I later replaced the petrol with 95% pure ethanol ( also known as methylated spirits ( or metho ) which I purchased from hardware shop/supermarket ).

I dropped fuel into the carby by the hole in the pvc pipe ( shown in one of the pics ) so the engine would start and once it kicked as long as the fuel vapours were available, it would run. There is no picture showing the drop pipe and I apologise for that. I also used a squirter bottle but its hard to get the air/fuel mix right to start it and then get the pvc pipe on quickly, so I reverted to using a dripper system through the hole. This dripper system isnt really important.

Does it work -   Yes it does, very well in fact.
Does the engine run up to full power - Yes, no problem.
Which burns cleaner? - Ethanol without a doubt. Petrol is actually quite dirty quite frankly.....
Is this system GEET? No - its a vapour maker and is an open system, where as GEET is a fuel cracking system that is in fact a closed system ( fuel/air recirculates ).

Does the system need a fuel heater? Yes it does - I didnt do much more than sitting the tin in a bucket of hot water ( not shown in pics ). I was amazed at how fast the tin got really cold because the fuel evaporates so quickly. In cold climates this would be a problem.

As the vapours are created, the fuel temperature drops quickly to the point where vapours cant be created and the engine stops. One solution is running a small coiled copper pipe through the fuel tin and use hot exhaust gasses tapped off the exhaust to heat the fuel by passing the exhaust gasses through the pipe ( dont put hot exhaust gases direct into the tin as you might get an explosion... OK I've now warned you.....).

Another solution is using an electric fuel heater as this would give better control of fuel temperature and fuel evaporation ( vapour creation ).
 

Possible Improvement ( or "Vapour System Mk II" ) :
======================================
(1) Put air inlet on side of tin to stop vapour loss to atmosphere
(2) Put fuel heater immersed in fuel ( or under tin bottom ) to keep fuel constant temp.


Further Possible Improvements ( or "Vapour System Mk III" ) :
=============================================
As above, but add second tin ( connected by same diameter pipe ) also with a fuel heater. Second tin outlet pipe connect to engine carby.
 
Air comes into first tin, mixes with vapopurs. As engine runs it creates suction and sucks fuel vapours from SECOND tin, but as second tin has vaopurs sucked out of it, this creates a vacuum and causes   vapours to be sucked in from first tin. Now we have a double system that shoul allow a richer air/fuel ratio which can be used for colder climates.
I havent built the Mk III yet, but am hoping to. It should, in theory, work fine.


Hope this helps explain things better.


Cheers,

PS77
 
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: DIDIT on April 01, 2009, 01:17:33 AM
Hey,
I have done this experiment aswell.  I attached the vaporizer to a lawn mower, and I had the intake air go through the gasoline to produce more vapor.  I was able to cut grass with the vaporizer installed with no noticeable power loss.  The engine burned half the fuel after running ten minutes.  I am currently trying to set it up on my truck that has a V8.  A few things to think about.  To heat the fuel run your coolant lines through the gasoline(tee into the line after the rad).  Have your fuel inlet line run into the vaporizer and have a fuel outlet that goes back to your tank(make the outlet a lot bigger than the inlet).  Backfires are a concern.  Try to find a marine intake housing or install a few screens to be sure.  You kind of want to make a bubbler out of you vaporizer to produce the most vapor.  I plan on having four air filters with copper lines drilled with several holes so the engine can just draw what it needs.  Hope this helps. 
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on April 01, 2009, 01:45:32 AM
Hi Didit,

Can you give me more info on what you mean by this please?

(1) "You kind of want to make a bubbler out of you vaporizer to produce the most vapor." 

(2) "I plan on having four air filters with copper lines drilled with several holes so the engine can just draw what it needs.  Hope this helps."

Cheers

PS77
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2009, 01:55:57 AM
DIDIT
Also on your lawn mower the phantom spark was no problem?[This kept me from trying this as I thought I would need a hall sensor ignition]
Chet
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: DIDIT on April 01, 2009, 02:02:18 AM
Hi Didit,

Can you give me more info on what you mean by this please?

(1) "You kind of want to make a bubbler out of you vaporizer to produce the most vapor." 

(2) "I plan on having four air filters with copper lines drilled with several holes so the engine can just draw what it needs.  Hope this helps."

Cheers

PS77

Basically you want to draw your intake air through the gasoline and produce a bubbling effect.  Through your younger days or now you may have come across a Bong, LOL.  Sucking through the top of the bottle draws the air through pipe and into the water creating bubbles, same idea as the vaporizer.  The idea of all the copper lines and holes drilled through is essentially the same as the bong but instead of having just one "pipe" created the bubbles, the holes make up the same air volume but distributed through the entire vaporizer instead of one localized spot.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: yaz on April 01, 2009, 02:06:25 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone know of a way to introduce fuel vapor into a fuel injected engine, any ideas? Or would I have to replace the intake for a carburated one? Thanks.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on April 01, 2009, 02:19:51 AM
Hi Didit,


Ok, thanks for the info. I now understand the concept youre talking about.
Presumably the bubbling will add more air into the fuel and help it vapourise better?

Hi yaz,

Well the idea of an injection system is to add the fuel efficiently to the engine, which means burn it more efficiently. However, injection is not that efficient - a vapour system ( assuming it has no leaks ) is pretty much the most efficient way of adding fuel to an engine.
Injectuion systems add liquid fuel drops to an engine, where as vapours are a gas and are the highest level of fuel dispersal in air you can realistically get. If a vapour system gets say 50 MPG and an injected engine gets say 25 MPG, the vapour system is 100% more efficient than using injection.

Cheers,

PS77
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2009, 02:24:13 AM
Yaz
Introducing vapor[fumes] to an ICE would be ""similar""[but NO pressure] to a propane or natural gas system

I believe [and if I'm wrong correct me] that the only way to do this is through the intake [Carburetor]

pressurizing gas fumes and injecting , would be an engineering challenge for the garage mechanic

But IMO there is no doubt getting the fumes in the combustion stroke only,would make this even more efficient
Chet
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: plasmastudent77 on April 01, 2009, 02:36:08 AM
H,mmm....if you pressurised fumes, they might turn back to liquid.....
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: ramset on April 01, 2009, 03:03:47 AM
Plazmastudent

Yes  seems logical.

 Somewhere in my notes I have some usefull info on this [looking]

Will post when I find it [from user creativity if I recall]

Chet
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Spewing on April 01, 2009, 04:17:35 AM
Thank you Very much for your time indeed!

I can get an engine identical to yours, But it is like 11.5 HP, and i think its rated at round 330 CC. You have brought good stuff to this forum dude, and i appreciate that!

Thank you for sharing!~
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: robbosdog on August 10, 2009, 06:29:44 AM
Great work !!!! , have you tried a fogger to do it ? , have a look at this 4 some ideas how to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzgqxEU0sVc

and a simple flame trap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x1Po-C4W4k

Regards ,

Robbo
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Mark69 on August 11, 2009, 12:56:08 AM
@ Plasma,

You can use the injection system from a forklift to use a gaseous fuel into your engine.  If you dont want to spend money on that. Or u can use a butterfly valve between a tank where the liguid is turned to a gas and the intake system.  You can adjust the the valve to get your idle correct.  Just have the liquid fuel changed to gas b4 starting the engine.  You can also run a pressure valve in the tank to relieve too much buildup of gaseous fuel back to another tank that is can be cooled and returned to liquid back to the fuel tank.  It sounds like a lot but can be done.  In a book called "Alcohol can be a gas", it illustrates how a diesel bus engine was converted to run on vaporized alcohol.  There is a lot of info in that book, which I have.  It also states that VW had experimented with a alcohol motor based on their TDI engine and it actually increased its mileage by 22%.  Remember an alcohol engines compression ratio can be up to about 18 to 1, this is where a prepared motor will do so much better then a regular gas motor just converted.

Mark 
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: jadaro2600 on August 11, 2009, 05:18:52 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone know of a way to introduce fuel vapor into a fuel injected engine, any ideas? Or would I have to replace the intake for a carburated one? Thanks.

EFI is just that, don't hack the engine, hack the injection ratio's.  It's all about the computer in an EFI system.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: kfstevens2370 on November 01, 2013, 07:40:14 AM
[size=78%]Here's some inspiration...[/size]

He cut the fuel injector lines and adapted the whole thing to run on fuel vapors, used trial an error to convert a 1992 geo storm and he's getting 0.8L/100km!! -no water injection :P

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/07/17/john-weston-vapors-fuel-463-mpg/ (http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/07/17/john-weston-vapors-fuel-463-mpg/)


Hey, I was trying to find some information on this John Weston and his AVFS (Air/Vapor Flow System). The above quote is about it unless I missed it some place in another posting. Well here is what I know so far...


The vaporizing tank is a small white and blue plastic container as verified from the report. It looks like a "Personal Size Ultrasonic Humidifier". I don't even think he changed anything with it except to run gas in it instead of water. Also from the report I read that a hose is running from the top of the vaporizing container to the engine's air intake housing. In the photo of him and his engine you can see a white hose doing just that.  Using a photo of a 1992 Geo Storm GSI, ISUZU I did my best to draw in the location of his vaporizer and hose (see attached photo). He also disconnected all the fuel injectors so no liquid fuel can be used. Has any one else tried this arrangement?
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: TinselKoala on November 01, 2013, 12:04:46 PM
Valve cover gasket is leaking.
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: truesearch on November 01, 2013, 03:41:16 PM
I wish the "vapor-system" was advanced enough for concise DIY steps. I own a 1973 Ford pickup with a 360ci carborated engine (no electronics or computer at all). Currently it makes about 10 miles/gallon  >:(


The idea of using an ultrasonic humidifier to vaporize fuel would be great ~ providing I could get at least 40 or 50 miles/gallon  ;D


truesearch
Title: Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
Post by: Mark69 on November 01, 2013, 10:14:10 PM
True, you vehicle should be the easiest to convert.  If you can get the fuel vaporizing, you can run it right to the carb air inlet.  the air/fuel ratio you are shooting for is about 12.7 (air) to 1 (fuel).  For example, if you have 14 hoses, 13 of them should flow air and one flow gas.  Now that would technically give you a 13 to 1 ratio, which is close.  Then you could take one of the "air" hoses, and make it slightly smaller (have it 7/10 or almost 3/4 of its original size).  That would get you right where you need to be.  Now, you need the air in all the hoses to flow at the same rate as the gas, so all are equal. 

The hardest part for you will be to get the gasoline vaporized then have the outflow of that equal to the air.  Just remember if you have any gasoline "gas" under pressure, it will be explosive to have a safety pressure relief valve in there so you don't blow up!

Hope to hear how you guys are doing!