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Author Topic: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!  (Read 98599 times)

Offline ashtweth_nihilisti

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 02:43:01 AM »
Chris and plasma student, please send me an email i have a GEET file or you both that you will need.
ashtweth@gmail.com

@ Stefan please send me one too. ;D

Ash

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 02:43:01 AM »

Offline gourdman

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 03:58:59 AM »
Hey guys I just built a Geet system on a small BS engine and have been running some tests using Gasoline motor oil and water. The engine seems to consume more water than gas and oil but it mixes the oil and water together so well it does not want to seperate. It becomes a pudding like substance, but still runs the engine well.I have been injecting some HHO into the engine intake and it seems to help it run smoother. Tomarrow I'm going to try injecting it into the bubbler tank.I also tried a plasma spark but it stalled the engine. I think it makes the fuel burn so well that the timming needs to be retared but I can't do that with this engine.
I need to do some complete fuel tank burns to see better test results. hopefully tomarrow.
 Keep up all your good work this is Kool stuff.
   
   Gourdman

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 06:03:17 AM »
@plasmastudent77

Did you get to test right down to empty fuel tank?

The fuel evaporates quicker than water, so the engine is using the fuel and then leaving the water behind.

I have not built a GEET Im wondering if this same thing happens to GEET? proper fuel are consumed but water and junk mostly stays behind...

This is probably why the mixture get leaner and leaner as the engine consume the fuel...if that make sense  ::)

Hi Chris31, you are correct!  when you combine fuel and water in the same tank (even if you heat it) the fuel will be consumed faster. It has been reported with GEET developers also. This is why I have suggested a separate tanks, one for water and one for fuel. A Y connector to recombine them and a valve on the water tank for regulation. The water should be heated just before the boiling point 195 degrease Fahrenheit, which is exactly the temperature of engine coolant fluid at normal before it goes through the radiator, so that could be used to heat the water for a car application. The fuel needs no heating unless you have cold weather but the fuel should not be heated any more than 80 degrease Fahrenheit.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 06:03:17 AM »
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Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 06:39:23 AM »
Hi Ash

Email sent.

Hi Luc

What benefit is the dual tank system? I'm not being negative, just curious......and are you talking the dual tank on GEET, or the vapour system Ive got?

Cheers

PS77

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 07:20:16 AM »
Hi Ash

Email sent.

Hi Luc

What benefit is the dual tank system? I'm not being negative, just curious......and are you talking the dual tank on GEET, or the vapour system Ive got?

Cheers

PS77

Hi plasmastudent77,

I am suggesting it for your vapor system!... as you know the vapor point of water is at a higher temperature than alcohol or gasoline, so if you heat only water (in its own container) before the boiling point you should be able to produce a good quantity of water vapor and still use a small container. You can start testing using one container at first but if you try to run it for a long time and find the engine stalls before the container level gets low then chances are that all the fuel has vaporized and only water is left but if you have 2 containers and have valves on each to regulate quantity only then will you be able to send as much water vapor as the engine can handle and achieve a better mixture control and a much better accuracy of calculating how much of each fluid has changed to vapor in your testing period.

Hope this helps

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 07:20:16 AM »
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Offline alan

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 03:19:58 PM »
Has vaporizing using microwave resonance already been considered or tried, to create mist from gasoline?
As like mist can be formed from water using this technique.

Offline PhiScience

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 06:26:02 PM »
Hi alan,
Ultrasonic vaporization of the water may be better, for one it takes less energy than heating it with a microwave, also the water vapor will be entering the combustion chamber colder and denser. This will allow it to expand even more when it is super heated in the combustion chamber producing more power.
Just a thought. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 06:26:02 PM »
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Offline alan

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 06:58:21 PM »
How about ultrasonic vaporization of gasoline?

Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 11:07:35 PM »
Hi All,


Great suggestions from everyone, so I'll give it a try one at a time.
Any ideas about what ultrasonic vapourizers cost? I may have to explore my old camping kettle first if vapourizers are pricey.

Luc that makes sense - in a way its trying to find optimum air/fuel vapour density for the engine. I'll still heat the fuel to keep it a constant temp. One of my next fuels to try vapourizing is diesel - I suspect it will work and if it does I'll be excited - it means you could in theory drive a normal engine possibly on vegetable oil ( with a small ammount of a solvent like petrol included...)

OK - Results to date -

On 95% ethanol ( alcohol ) the engine consumed 0.88 Litres/hour of running at full throttle ( but no load ). I'm assuming some loss to the atmosphere of fuel of say 10%, so that might bring consumption closer to 0.8 L/hour.

To put it in perspective, at highway speeds of 110 km/h ( 70mph ) cruising for an hour, a typical car would consume 8 L/100 km at 100 km/h ( e.g. a Toyota Camry ) so in effect 8 L/hour of petrol ( not alcohol ) . Obviously a car weighs a lot more, and the engine is loaded and its *not* running at full RPM either, where as the 5 HP Honda is running about 2/3 full throttle.

I''m hoping to try running on petrol vapour this weekend and see how much it consumes, then try running it on petrol through the carburettor and see how we go. I'll post the rsults back once done.

The diesel results will be interesting.

Cheers

PS77

 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 11:07:35 PM »
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Offline CowboyRX

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 11:32:41 PM »
As long as we are talking about ultrasonics, take a look at this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTAaslsj6Q

Offline demios

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 03:09:48 AM »
Hey there guys, I see you're into vaporization :) I see some nice approaches, and I'm glad that you share them. I have extensively read about ALKANE cracking and usage of catalysts, pressure and temperature to complete the cracking. To avoid writing all that I know on this subject, all over again, I'll paste you two messages that I wrote to our friend gotoluc and a guy named tsimonin. Luc, I hope this is OK with you, since I know you're planing on building GEET-like device.

My YouTube message to "gotoluc":


Hi Luc,

since you're making GEET type device, please take a look at a work of a YouTouber named "tsimonin" (http://www.youtube.com/user/tsimonin). He did a lot of R&D on fuel vaporization and heat treatment of it.

Also, this is the mail I sent to him. I do not know whether he received it, or not, so simply send me some response to this mail. Here it goes:

I've read an year ago C.N.Pogue's patents, and eventually seen George Wiseman's instruction of the Hyco2A cold vaporizer - just look for it on YT or GoogleVideo. That gave me some ideas about additionally heating the petrol vapors, even before I've seen Paul Pantone's GEET technology. Most recently I've seen Allen Caggiano's FIVS III carburettor.

It's a device shaped like a tube (H 12" x W 3.5"), with a screw-on lid on the bottom and a screw-on cone on it's top. The cone is connected to a copper line, which is coupled to a pressure reducer. Inside, the cylinder is plated in Platinum, because it causes petrol molecules (chemical group called alkanes) to fall apart. Inside, there are also 4 nickel plated Neo magnets (high temperature endurable) placed in a shape of a cross. In between them the petrol passes and further brakes down. Petrol is sprayed in the cylinder by a high pressure petrol pump (200-250 PSI). It is preheated by an 950W heating element, so when it is sprayed into the cylinder with a 250 PSI pump, it reaches some 750 deg.F, but does not explode, because there's no sufficient oxygene niside :) Then, it vaporizes instantaneously and enters the strong magnetic field, where it decomposes additionally to form methane gas and alcohols (see alkane cracking on Wikipedia). At all times the vapors are in contact with the Platinum and Nickel, which act as catalysts in alkane cracking process. Here's a link: http://www.schuldenbuerger.de/FivsGenIIIA.htm . Look around the site (click on every button to get the appropriate pictures), because it is not well organized.

So, here's a small concept drawing (done in MS Paint, so it isn't really great, but not bad either :) ), with the engine viewed from the top and an HHO cell. Tube design (configuration +nn-nn+) is such that the innermost and outermost tubes are welded together to form the bubbler, as you can see in the drawing. The produced HHO is introduced into the innermost hole (of the smallest diameter tube) in an ordinary fashion (as it is always done with bubblers), in order to preserve space under the hood.

I added a copper line, that's supposed to return some of the exhaust gases into the fuel bubbler, their amount can be controlled via needle valve (this part can be excluded, if it presents a potential problem in the system). I also added another needle valve for fresh air intake, which can(should) be heated to further enhance the vaporization. I didn't draw the fresh air warming system, because it would make the picture even more complicated, but it can be done, as you already know, by coiling it around the exhaust lines etc.

After the fuel vapors have been created, they move towards the exhaust pipe, that goes under the engine (painted in blue color), and coil around it to pick up heat, and then they proceed upwards towards the carburettor (I didn't draw it, instead I drew two adjacent circles, which represent the beginning of the intake manifold, just under the carburettor).

HHO and fuel vapors should meet in the carburetor, in some way. This should be determined by the particular type of the carburettor, as it is a matter of convenience.

I was really pleased to see that your work is very similar to my concepts, and hereby I offer you my point of view on the subject. You are free to use them in any way.

Further I think, we should use nickel plating (because it is cheaper than platinum plating) and magnetic fields to crack the fuel completely.

Best of luck!

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=concept1xz2.png

Hope this helps in some way :) Good luck.

And now, my letter to "tsimonin":

I've read an year ago C.N.Pogue's patents, and eventually seen George Wiseman's instruction of the Hyco2A cold vaporizer - just look for it on YT or GoogleVideo. That gave me some ideas about additionally heating the petrol vapors, even before I've seen Paul Pantone's GEET technology. Most recently I've seen Allen Caggiano's FIVS III carburettor.

It's a device shaped like a tube (H 12" x W 3.5"), with a screw-on lid on the bottom and a screw-on cone on it's top. The cone is connected to a copper line, which is coupled to a pressure reducer. Inside, the cylinder is plated in Platinum, because it causes petrol molecules (chemical group called alkanes) to fall apart. Inside, there are also 4 nickel plated Neo magnets (high temperature endurable) placed in a shape of a cross. In between them the petrol passes and further brakes down. Petrol is sprayed in the cylinder by a high pressure petrol pump (200-250 PSI). It is preheated by an 950W heating element, so when it is sprayed into the cylinder with a 250 PSI pump, it reaches some 750 deg.F, but does not explode, because there's no sufficient oxygene niside :) Then, it vaporizes instantaneously and enters the strong magnetic field, where it decomposes additionally to form methane gas and alcohols (see alkane cracking on Wikipedia). At all times the vapors are in contact with the Platinum and Nickel, which act as catalysts in alkane cracking process. Here's a link: http://www.schuldenbuerger.de/FivsGenIIIA.htm . Look around the site (click on every button to get the appropriate pictures), because it is not well organized.

So, here's a small concept drawing (done in MS Paint, so it isn't really great, but not bad either :) ), with the engine viewed from the top and an HHO cell. Tube design (configuration +nn-nn+) is such that the innermost and outermost tubes are welded together to form the bubbler, as you can see in the drawing. The produced HHO is introduced into the innermost hole (of the smallest diameter tube) in an ordinary fashion (as it is always done with bubblers), in order to preserve space under the hood.

I added a copper line, that's supposed to return some of the exhaust gases into the fuel bubbler, their amount can be controlled via needle valve (this part can be excluded, if it presents a potential problem in the system). I also added another needle valve for fresh air intake, which can(should) be heated to further enhance the vaporization. I didn't draw the fresh air warming system, because it would make the picture even more complicated, but it can be done, as you already know, by coiling it around the exhaust lines etc.

After the fuel vapors have been created, they move towards the exhaust pipe, that goes under the engine (painted in blue color), and coil around it to pick up heat, and then they proceed upwards towards the carburettor (I didn't draw it, instead I drew two adjacent circles, which represent the beginning of the intake manifold, just under the carburettor).

HHO and fuel vapors should meet in the carburetor, in some way. This should be determined by the particular type of the carburettor, as it is a matter of convenience.

I was really pleased to see that your work is very similar to my concepts, and hereby I offer you my point of view on the subject. You are free to use them in any way.

Further I think, we should use nickel plating (because it is cheaper than platinum plating) and magnetic fields to crack the fuel completely.

Best of luck!

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=concept1xz2.png

This is basically all there is on vaporizing the petrol. The devices may and will vary, but the principles are the same > heat, pressure, catalysts. Look inside your car engine compartment and see how much space you have left, and accordingly to that make a simple drawing on a paper in which you'll position new components for cracking and vaporizing fuel.

A small guideline as how NOT TO overlean the mixture > If your car's idle speed on petrol is (for example) 850 rpm, and you CHANGE the fuel, the idle speed MUST REMAIN THE SAME !!! In other words, set the amount of fuel to the exact point where your car has the same idle speed as on petrol. That way, you can be sure that the engine is not running lean. However with some fuels, such as LPG (as in my car) the mixture IS right, but the LPG burns hotter than petrol (some 50-100 deg C hotter). This MAY lead to burning your valve seats, BUT it depends on the ALLOY of the valve seats. In most cars (90%) there are NO problems. Some cars on the other hand should use engine oils with INCREASED amount of PHOSPHORUS (MOTUL has an oil additive which is designed to be added if you're using LPG - it has high P content). Flashlube is also used to lubricate the valves and seats, since there's no petrol additives in the LPG. But most people think that engines designed to run on UNLEADED petrol should have no problems at all.

If you have any questions please ask. I am working on a different vaporizer right now, so the pictures above are OLD diagrams. Bye!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 03:09:48 AM »
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Offline alan

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 04:40:48 PM »
As long as we are talking about ultrasonics, take a look at this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTAaslsj6Q
Very cool exp.
Now an other jug with water with an ultrasonic transducer @ water freq., and the hoses of both jugs combine and maybe heat up the mix of vapours, which seems to me easier than heating up the whole liquid.

Another way of pre-heating maybe can be accomplished with induction heating, no limits to that.

Offline tishatang

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2008, 05:02:50 AM »
Hi PS77 and all

Here is a link to an ebay item when you want to convert a bigger engine to vapor system.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160299975861&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=160293744985&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m183&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%26itu%3DUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4

It looks similar to an old SU carb design that give variable venturi and jet over the whole rpm range.  Easy to richen or lean fuel mixture.  It seems to me, once you are generating vapor, you can just turn off the whole EFI system.  Run a modern car with no computer?  May be just the thing for GEET modified car engine, adjusts for varying and speed.

tishatang

Offline CrazyEwok

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2008, 07:32:20 AM »
Just some ideas to help you out.
The thing with fuel vapour systems is that they need Power right? in order to operate properly and i hope some of the HHO guys are reading this. Look up 'Tesla Turbine' on google and look at all the pretty clear plastic jobs... Now watching this i came up with 2 ideas...
1. Attaching a small alternator/generator on the front of a turbo using its high rpm to generate the power needed to vapourize fuel / generate HHO
2. On the exhaust (after turbo if attached) Place a heat resistant Tesla turbine with an electric generator / Alternator attached... if thought out properly i think this could solve a lot of the power production problems... (also if it works as well as i think you may be able to remove your alternator from your engine and free up some power) With it attached to the exhaust it would potenially be able to produce more power when the engine revs up to replace the reserves lost... but that is further down the track.

Offline robbosdog

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2008, 07:20:52 AM »
Hi Guys ,
   I have been working on a GEET system for a four cylinder engine its much the same as most but I have been wondering if my system would be worth the effort.
I have designed mine by looking at what cylinder is exhausting hot gas and which cylinder is sucking in its charge.
I then route the required intake through the required exhaust to get the best gain from the GEET theory ( if I understand it correctly ) , this means making four rods and doing a lot of welding and bending to get this “ double acting tuned pulse system” , its actually possible ( if one uses a two stage inlet ) to get the intake lengths identical. 
My goal is to run it on water and this means the rod will have be  a different length , the problem is that once this system is make it cant be altered so it means a rebuild after each mod.
I think that a lot of the problems people have getting the claimed / expected results comes down to a single cylinder engines is sucking and blowing at different times and the electromagnetic charge one gains from the centre iron rod may only be present while the gases are actually flowing ( or at their strongest at least ) . That’s why I have decided to use a multi cylinder engine .

If we assume a four cylinder engine fires in the 1.3.4.2. order and we utilize the above theory it would run as follows ( I think )

 Cyl 2 exhausting and Cyl 4 intake :  so intake trunk four runs horizontally through Cyl 2 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 3 exhausting and Cyl 1 intake :  so intake trunk one runs horizontally through  Cyl 3 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 4 exhausting and Cyl 3 intake :  so intake trunk three runs horizontally through  Cyl 4 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

Cyl 1 exhausting and Cyl 2 intake :  so intake trunk two runs horizontally through  Cyl 1 exhaust for the required length then exits and runs its port.

So see any floors ?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 07:46:59 AM by robbosdog »

 

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