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Author Topic: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!  (Read 97231 times)

Offline plasmastudent77

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Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« on: November 08, 2008, 08:11:48 AM »
Hi All,

Well I got my 5.5 HP Honda motor running on vapour.

I had to start it on carby, but then switch the fuel off and let the fumes take over.

Construction - its a large coffee tin with 32 mm PVC pipe running into it. The tin lid ( which is an air tight seal on the can ) has 8 holes drilled in it and each hole is 12mm diameter. The 8 black tubes are just 12 mm ( 1/2 inch ) home garden irrigation pipe and it all held together with wet area silicon sealant ( i.e used in bathrooms ). 

Running - I start ion carby, then once the engine warms up, switch off the fuel and let the fumes take over. The tin is approx 6 inches diameter and about 6 inches tall,. I half fill it with petrol, then make sure the 12mm tubes and the 32 mm pipe supplying the carb are close ( 10mm ) but not actually touching the fuel surface in the tin.

I ran it for a half an hour and used very little fuel. Its a rough prototype but works OK and the engine runs with an even note and smoothly. The only thing I dont know about is water injection to compensate for the leaned out fuel mix which means the exhaust valves need water to cool them instead being coole dby unburnt fuel. Engines are designed to waste fuel ( unburnt fuel )  which splashes onto the exhaust valves ot keep them cool.

Feel free to ask questions.
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
Cheers

PS77

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Offline pese

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 08:53:11 AM »
Possibly that is the system , that was invented before 130 years.
I have read (2003) that first an Water-Engine was working.
But this construction was the reconstruct to  mineraloil fuel.


It is to understand that that WAS an better way to let running also the money ..
Pese

/The source of this knowledge was 2003 offered by prochure and CD !
Have sombody an copy of this ?

Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:45:38 AM »
Well the set up is really half way between normal carburettor and GEET, but yes youare right, 130 years ago people had these systems. My next step is to try it on a car.

In some ways, we can get rid of fuel injection on cars and use this simple system. I'm hoping to try ( like GEET ) with other fuels as well, maybe even a water/fuel mix.

I dont know how it would go in very cold climates, but I think it would need a normal carburettor to make sure it was a rich fuel mix for cold starting then run on vapours.....

I'm hoping to do some fuel consumption tests for vapour vs non-vapour and post back the results.

Cheers

PS77.

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:45:38 AM »
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Offline helmut

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 02:38:13 PM »
Well the set up is really half way between normal carburettor and GEET, but yes youare right, 130 years ago people had these systems. My next step is to try it on a car.

In some ways, we can get rid of fuel injection on cars and use this simple system. I'm hoping to try ( like GEET ) with other fuels as well, maybe even a water/fuel mix.

I dont know how it would go in very cold climates, but I think it would need a normal carburettor to make sure it was a rich fuel mix for cold starting then run on vapours.....

I'm hoping to do some fuel consumption tests for vapour vs non-vapour and post back the results.

Cheers

PS77.

Hello plasmastudent77
Thanks for sharing.
I a next step one could test to conect a hose from a electrolyser to the plasticpipe.
It might be of use to cool down the Motor by this way.
keep doing a good job
helmut

Offline nightlife

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 04:02:32 PM »
 If gas is needed to splash back on the valves to keep them cool, how does natural gas and or propane do it? Isn't natural gas and propane a vapor too?

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 04:02:32 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 04:59:43 PM »
Hi plasmastudent77,

thanks for testing this and sharing your work ;)  One thing I would recommend before you do more tests is to add one if not two check valves which should be available in most plumbing stores and possibly in the size of your main pipe. What this valve will do is allow flow in one direction in case you have a backfire. Add one as close to the carby as possible and for safety add one as close to your fuel storage container.

If you get a backfire without these you may have a serous fire to deal with.

An interesting test would be to try pure Alcohol and see if it would work since you can add water to it as they blends together but try it strait first and see what you get. Also see if you can get a BBQ thermometer to monitor your exhaust temperature since things can get hot when you lean out fuel or use pure Alcohol and I wouldn't want you to burn a hole through the piston.

ADDED:
When you get to the point of adding water to the Alcohol you want to put your fuel tank in a container of boiling water so to raise the vapor point of your water Alcohol mix for the water to be drawn to the engine but take note that to Alcohol will also vapor faster, so the best way to do this is have a separate container for water and fuel and just heat the water container. Use a Y to bring them back together and add a valve on the water side to regulate it. With a setup like this you can use gasoline.

Play safe mate!... I'll keep an eye on your topic.

Luc

Offline yaz

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 06:49:05 PM »
Kickass work Plasmastudent77!!

Last week on the show "TRUCKS!"  The guys did a propane conversion on a 2008 Ford 150. They bought the kit and all they changed were the injectors added a pressure regulator/switch and get the trucks computer flashed. There was NO WATER INJECTION to keep the valves cool!!
Whoever said, that you need extra fuel to cool valves is full of it!

The auto makers that program the computer to dump extra fuel so it "cools the valves" is just an excuse to waste more fuel! It just carbons up your engine faster and dirtys up your oil all to get you back to the pumps faster!

Go outside check the oil level in your vehicle and smell the dipstick if it smells like gasoline, that means your piston rings are shot and that "extra" fuel is washing down the cylinder walls diluting your oil and ending up in your oil pan...get enough gas in there and it'll blow the oil pan off your engine!! Mechanic friend of mine seen it happen!  My last car had bad rings and sure as hell the oil smelled like gas!!! Had to change the oil pretty damm quick! Leaky injectors cause the same problem but then the engine runs like a bag of sh@t!!

The carb on my Toro lawnmower doesn't shoot extra fuel down the intake, that must mean that my valves are burnt to a crisp....ya ok! The damm thing only starts on no more than 2 pulls ever since I bought it new in 2001 and not one problem with the 6.5HP engine and loads of power!

http://ezinearticles.com/?Propane-Auto-Conversions---Is-it-a-Better-Solution-For-My-Engine?&id=1518811

The guys on TRUCKS also talked to a guy with a towing business that only used propane for his tow truck and it had over 380,000 miles on it. He said he tore the engine down to rebuild it and guess what?...There was NO carbon buildup...NO unusual wear patterns...the inside of the engine looked almost new and he didn't have to change the oil as often as he did before when it ran on gasoline...duh! Oh Yeah, no burnt valves!!

Not sure where this stupid rumor started about burnt valves but every natural gas/propane converted vehicle does NOT have anything to cool the valves!!! So stop spreading bullshit!

Instead of trying to improve the vapor setup we're now sidetracked how to add a water injector...you don't need it.

Now you will need a fuel heater, because when the fuel vaporizes it cools so after a while the fuel won't want to vaporize that well especially in the winter. That's what we need to work on.

Here's some inspiration...

He cut the fuel injector lines and adapted the whole thing to run on fuel vapors, used trial an error to convert a 1992 geo storm and he's getting 0.8L/100km!! -no water injection :P

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/07/17/john-weston-vapors-fuel-463-mpg/


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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 06:49:05 PM »
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Offline pese

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 07:39:57 PM »
Sorry for my mistake, i understand this wron. I look for the car system that was running 130 years ago with water- vapor. asolinine and gaz, from them are all type know. That system taht wrk like an normal exposion-motor on minaroil base was existing before with water if anybody know this . post this here Thanks. Propane (campinggaz) als water/Gasoline
(as emulsion - aswell as varor , fume enz) and this things what you discussinge here , i have done near 50 yeras ago
I look for mor knowledges and experiences to LEARN from this-  (Sorry ,that i was in the wrong tread  for my (water) Vapor interest)
Pese.

Offline Chris31

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 08:50:22 PM »
Excellent work plasmastudent77

Whats the small hole for drilled on the T-piece near the intake? How long do you need to run it on carb before switching to fume?

I was thinking of removing the carb all together, squirt some fuel by the intake and hopefully the few seconds running is enough to get the fumes working and keep the engine running.

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 08:50:22 PM »
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Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 03:40:43 AM »
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback - another reason I love sharing!!

OK, the water injection I can scarp. Just after I posted I wondered about LPG on taxis and how they cope, so yeah maybe the unburnt fuel thing is a diversion.

Safety - Luc, good point. Yes this was al put together in an afternoon so it was first attempt.

Starting - on carby for say 1 minute, then switch to vapours then run on that. Need to keep fuel level up so enough vapours are available,. Fuel heating - good point.  Need to investigate safety interlocks etc for this.

The small hole near the carb was where I was running water injection but too much H2O as it will stop the motor, so have to experiment more. Now that its a pile of hooey about water injection for valve cooling, it may not be needed  :-)

I'll try other fuels as suggested Luc, and let you know. 95% ethanol will be one test...

Will post back soon.

Cheers



Offline crashhh

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 07:49:50 AM »
Deja Vue!  I built virtually the same thing in 1981, including the pipes. 
Only difference was that I built a perspex box with a float at one end to keep the fuel level constant instead of the can.  I attached it to the air intake of the carburetor of an old Datsun 1000 station wagon, and it worked.
A few problems I encountered were as follows.
First, additives will be left behind in the liquid fuel as they don't evaporate at the same rate.  In my case the Datsun required leaded fuel, which was being left within the liquid.  It pinked it's brains out when accelerating.
Secondly, the evaporation also carries away thermal energy from the liquid, and so it cools very rapidly.  As the evaporation rate is affected to a very large extent by the temperature the engine will quickly lean out if that heat is not replenished constantly.
It's quite important to keep the liquid at a constant temperature or your fuel usage will vary markedly between a rich mixture, and one that won't sustain combustion.
I don't know whether to congratulate you or not.  If I do, then I am also effectively patting myself on the back as well.
I did race off to the patent office, and discovered that Chrysler already had an evaporator patented, and so did Honda, though they were both quite different to this in how they worked.  The Honda one was quite interesting.  It was a circular chamber sort of like a snail shell, with the head end below a carburetor and the spiral finishing at the inlet port.
All the best!
Vince

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 07:49:50 AM »
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Offline ashtweth_nihilisti

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 04:16:52 AM »
At Plasma Student. Got this From Naresh (the GEET guys) for you ;D

it kind of looks like only the lighter fractions are getting evaporated?.
Is there exhaust heat used to evaporate all fractions of the petrol
together evenly?Is there an exhaust pipe inside the big PVC pipe?

Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!! - UPDATE
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 12:14:08 AM »
Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated! :D

OK - I tried some other fuels in my "coffee tin vapour maker" and this is what happened:

(1) Fuel was 95% ethanol ( methylated spirits bought at local supermarket ) - ran fine. Runs up to full power and runs smoother and QUIETER than petrol and exhaust smells very clean by comparison to petrol. Power sounded a little down ( I dont have a dyno to test properly ) but you would expect that as alcohol has less calorific value per kg than petrol. Would be a suitable fuel if needed.


(2) Added water to 95% ethanol fuel alcohol, so the fuel mix was 40% water, 60 % alcohol. Ran OK, but a little inconsistent and had to ease the throttle open gradually to stop misfires ( due to water vapour I think ). Ethanol absorbs water, so water and alcohol are a good to use together. This misfiring might improve when I pre-heat the fuel. I'll let you know.....

I also noted I needed more air with ethanol than when running on petrol, so that the air-fuel ratio needs to be higher. I opened up the feed pipe so more air went in and the combsution settled down and was more stable. I'll test this some more and report back.


An important point here - this is NOT GEET. It is a fuel vapour system. It is really a 1/2 GEET system if you want to call it that as it is using only 1/2 the setup. GEET uses fully recycled exhaust vapours going into the fuel tank to go "closed loop". I am not doing this - I am using fuel vapour evaporation to produce fumes and is "open loop".

The next step will be putting the fuel tin in a bucket of hot water so the fuel is preheated to produce fuel vapour more consitently. As the fuel cools down, even through it turning to vapour, the tin gets colder and colder and so vapour production slows down and slows down so that the engine eventually stops.  A fuel heater ( the bucket of hot water ) is safe and will allow me to test over a longer period. If this system was on a car, I would expect the exhaust gas or radiator water be used to pre-heat the fuel.

Cheers,

PS77


Offline Chris31

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 01:17:45 AM »
@plasmastudent77

Did you get to test right down to empty fuel tank?

The fuel evaporates quicker than water, so the engine is using the fuel and then leaving the water behind.

I have not built a GEET Im wondering if this same thing happens to GEET? proper fuel are consumed but water and junk mostly stays behind...

This is probably why the mixture get leaner and leaner as the engine consume the fuel...if that make sense  ::)


Offline plasmastudent77

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Re: Fuel Vapour System - Got it working!!
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 02:39:42 AM »
Hi

I havent run it down to empty as I've only really started doing this, however what you say makes sense.
My thinking is that if the fuel is clean ( eg alcohol+water  ) then over a period of time after say a few tanks of fuel, maybe the engine would be cleaned up and the exhaust would run clean enough to produce very little gunk. I suspect after a period of time the fuel tank would have to be emptied, however the fuel+water emulsion would have to result in some of the water being consumed at least, if only as steam.

One thing that does stick out is that even fuels thought generally unusable ( I havent tried diesel yet - next on the list ) might be usable. I think though that the GEET process of recycling the exhaust into
the fuel tank to aerate the fuel and make sure the different fuels are mixed up properly ( mixing I think is important ) then all of a sudden you expand the capabilities of an engine. With vapour or GEET
you might also be able to mix say a small ammount of alcohol ( acting as a solvent and producing highly combustible fumes to get combustion going ) and vegetable oil  ( the fuel ) and produce an overall usable fuel. I think this is a good step forward.

I also think its possible tio use say HHO as a starter fuel, or even as a necessary additive to allow the combustion of say heavy vegetable oil ( better suited to diesel usage ) in an engine that normally uses petrol.

All this is to be explored yet, but I think the possibilities are intersting. If oil went up drastically again in price, or we had a serious war that dried up most fuels ( highly likely ), this technology would allow folks to be able to at least move around, rather being held "hostage" at home by high fuel prices or non existant normal fuel supplies.

I think older carburetor engines and diesels are better suited to this type scenario, but fuel injected engines could be used but need to have the injectors disabled and turned into vapour systems or crude carburetors fitted to them - which isnt hard to do. I used PVC pipe and a coffee tin to prove how easy it is.

Food for thought.....I'll update this thread as tests continue.

Cheers

PS77

 

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