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Author Topic: Winding a strong electromagnet  (Read 178616 times)

Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2008, 06:49:00 AM »
Any recommendations on coil/core geometry/dimensions?  Something like how a Brooks coil dimensions is proposed for an air core design?
Maximum width/depth of windings/ distance from core?
Core width/length? etc...

- - -

Kator - I've tried to upload the Ebook to the uploads section of this site - but stated file size limit is 5meg and the Ebook is 12meg.  However - the link given before IS active and links to the .pdf download of the Ebook....

- - -

Silicon Steel  (Electrical Steel)
 
"When low carbon steel is alloyed with small quantities of silicon, the added  volume resistivity helps to reduce eddy current losses in the core.  Silicon
steels are probably of the most use to designers of motion control products
where the additional cost is justified by the increased performance.  These
steels are available in an array of grades and thicknesses so that the material may be tailored for various applications.  The added silicon has a marked impact on the life of stamping tooling, and the surface insulation selected also affects die life.  Silicon steels are generally specified and selected on the basis of allowable core loss in watts/lb.

The grades are called out, in increasing order of core loss by M numbers,
such as M19, M27, M36 or M43, with each grade specifying a maximum  core loss.  (Note that this means that material can be substituted up , as M19 for M36, but not vice versa.) The higher M numbers (and thus higher core losses) are progressively lower cost, although only a few percent is saved with each step down in performance.  M19 is probably the most common grade for motion control products, as it offers nearly the lowest core loss in this class of material, with only a small cost impact, particularly in low to medium production quantities.
In addition to grade, there are a number of other decisions to make regarding silicon steels.  These are:

1. Semi vs. Fully processed material,
2. Annealing after stamping,
3. Material Thickness,
4. Surface insulation. 

  Fully processed material is simply material which has been annealed
to optimum properties at the steel mill.  Semi processed material always
requires annealing after stamping in order to remove excess carbon as well as to stress relieve.  The better grades of silicon steel are always supplied fully processed while semi processed is available only in grades M43 and worse.  The designer considering semi processed M43 should evaluate Low Carbon Steel which may provide equivalent performance at lower cost.

Even though annealed at the mill, fully processed material may require further stress relief anneal after stamping.  The stresses introduced during punching degrade the material properties around the edges of the lamination, and must be removed to obtain maximum performance.  This is
particularly true for parts with narrow sections, or where very high flux
density is required.  In one instance, a tachometer manufacturer was able to
reduce the stack height in his product by 10% by annealing after stamping.  The annealing cycle requires a temperature of 1350-1450 F in a non oxidizing, non carburizing atmosphere. Endothermic, nitrogen, and vacuum atmospheres all work well. The selection of lamination thickness is a fairly
straightforward trade off of core loss versus cost.  Thinner laminations exhibit lower losses (particularly as frequency increases), but thinner material is more expensive initially, and more laminations are required for a given stack height.  The most common thicknesses are .014 in., .0185 in., and .025 in. (29 Gauge, 26 Gauge, and 24 Gauge, respectively.)  These thicknesses are supplemented by thin electrical steels, available in .002, .004, and .007 in. thick.  Thin electrical steels are available in one grade (Equivalent to M19) and are made by re-rolling standard silicon steel.  Due to substantially higher material cost, thin electrical steel is used primarily for high performance and high frequency applications.  In order to gain full advantage from a laminated core, the laminations must be insulated from one another.  The simplest way to do this is to specify a surface insulation on the raw material.  Silicon steels are available with several types of insulation: 
--C-0:
Also called bare, or oxide coated.  This is a thin, tightly adherent oxide
coating put on the material at the steel mill, or during the annealing process
after stamping. This is the lowest cost insulation, but offers little
resistance.
--C-3:
Enamel or varnish coating which offers excellent insulation, but parts so
coated cannot be annealed after stamping.
--C-4:An inorganic coating providing higher resistance than C-0, but which will withstand annealing temperatures.
--C-5:
An improved inorganic coating similar to  C-4 but with significantly higher
resistance. It withstands annealing well in most cases.  This is probably the
best choice for most performance sensitive applications.  The main drawback to C-5 is  an increase in tool wear due to abrasiveness."
- - -

Anyone have a source for ordering small quantities of electrical steel?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2008, 06:49:00 AM »

Offline scotty1

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2008, 10:19:17 AM »
Hi all, I have loads of thin iron.  ;D
I have to keep it on my trolley jack it is so heavy..maybe 400lbs or more  :o
I took it from an old electric induction furnace...the strips are about 3 feet long x 3 inches wide, very thin.
BTW, if you want to make a strong EM for lifting, then you need to put an iron tube around the coil and core....You can do better still...connect one end of the iron core to one end of the iron or steel tube with a plate of iron or steel....then at the same end of the coil,  if the core was a N pole, the tube will be a S pole.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1309921210053353196vJTSMY
My wife gives me "THE LOOK" when i bring things like 400lbs of iron strips home  >:(
"BUT I MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE IT ONE DAY"   I say  ;D
Everybody here surley understands that. ;)
Scotty.
 


Offline Kator01

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2008, 10:34:14 AM »
 Hi capthook,

thank you. I simply can not believe it how scattered information in the web is. But anyway look here,  even searched with google´s book-search-engine and could not find it.

Regards

Kator01




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2008, 10:34:14 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline gyulasun

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2008, 10:43:43 AM »
Hi Kator01,

I receive the same page you show above, I think it is country-specific what we can download...  Probably it is ok for download in the USA but not allowed in Europe...

Maybe it could be uploaded to a free file sharing site?

rgds, Gyula

Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2008, 11:23:12 AM »
Huh - must be a US thing.
Google caused a bit of an uproar when they started the book scan project.  Royalties issues etc.
Just a week ago or so they settled a law suit for over $20 million relating to it.
Maybe it will clear some of the hurtles in the near future.

I upload the file to a free file service:

http://www.filepanda.com/file/vjdxk5ztmx4m/

It will take a min. or two (or more on dial-up - 12 MB) to download and then opens a .pdf window.
You can then click on "save a copy" in the top-left menu to save to your hard drive.

 :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2008, 11:23:12 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Kator01

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2008, 12:09:43 PM »
Hi capthook,

thank you very much. Now I have saved a copy. Great find.

Regards

Kator01

Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2008, 12:47:00 PM »
A 2nd Ebook of interest is:

Solenoids, Electromagnets & electromagnetic windings
423 pages, 7MB

A good complement to the first and written 25 later.
The author, Underhill, writes this in reference to the author of the 1st ebook link:

"The labors of Professor Silvanus P. Thompson in this field deserve recognition from the electrical profession, to which the author desires to add his personal acknowledgments."

The file is here:

http://www.filepanda.com/file/2rpkksms11kj/

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2008, 12:47:00 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2008, 05:17:34 AM »
1st attach picture:

A graph showing the results of different core materials using a small test coil as a generator coil.


2nd pic: MIG welding wire

Ran across this interesting core idea:

"Get yourself a roll of .030 MIG welding wire.

Make your coil form so that there is very little airspace at the center of the winding.

Wind the steel wire in tandem with the copper wire on the same form.

What you have there is an integrated, ultra-low eddy-current ferrous core.

You can also do this with regular mechanics wire. But, it's usually kinda dirty and oily right on the roll. MIG wire is nice and shiny."

What you lose in winding space for the copper wire because of the steel wire might be similiar to what you gain in being able to wind the coil to a smaller inner dimension?
Either way - an interesting idea I've never heard of!

Offline Xaverius

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 08:46:10 AM »
1st attach picture:

A graph showing the results of different core materials using a small test coil as a generator coil.


2nd pic: MIG welding wire

Ran across this interesting core idea:

"Get yourself a roll of .030 MIG welding wire.

Make your coil form so that there is very little airspace at the center of the winding.

Wind the steel wire in tandem with the copper wire on the same form.

What you have there is an integrated, ultra-low eddy-current ferrous core.

You can also do this with regular mechanics wire. But, it's usually kinda dirty and oily right on the roll. MIG wire is nice and shiny."

What you lose in winding space for the copper wire because of the steel wire might be similiar to what you gain in being able to wind the coil to a smaller inner dimension?
Either way - an interesting idea I've never heard of!


Nice suggestion, any idea of the permeabilty of welding wire?  Btw, how is your electrical steel/ferrite projects progressing?  I received a 6" long/1" diameter ferrite rod from Stormwise.com.  It was encased in 1/8th thick plastic tubing for weatherproofing.  I chiseled off the plastic today and found two 3" segments pushed together end to end.  I wound one segment with 80' of 26 gauge wire.  When I went to test it, I found that my 9 volt battery was dead!  #%!&^$...very frustrating.  I'll have to get a battery and test it Saturday, will post the results then.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 08:46:10 AM »
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Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 10:49:31 AM »
The welding wire idea was just a new/odd idea I thought I'd share - thinking it's probably not a real solution.

Glad you got your ferrite - looking forward to your results! Odd it is 2 pieces - hopefully they are even a better size now to work with.

I ordered mine from where I did because I didn't want that plastic tubing, wanted different sizes, was cheaper, and quicker delivery.  It should be here tommorrow  8)

What are your winding dimensions?
How are you going to test?  1 or 2 "D" batteries (1.5v or 3v) may be easier for testing than 9v?

The "strength" tests I've done are holding strength - as in a traction style EM.  It should be relative to an airgap EM.  They have been geared towards wire size, winding depth and length, and power consumption. 
Using a 5/16" hex bolt as weight and adding nuts and washers to add/subtract to that weight to determine the holding power.  Then weighing it to determine ounces/lbs of pull.
It could also be expressed as: 5/16" x 4" hex bolt with 5 nuts and 3 washers.

Is this a testing method you will pursue?  What other options/methods have you considered?
Anyone else with comments?

The earlier tests were add hock - and I didn't take adequte notes.

Once I get the ferrite - I will perform the above method with various cores and windings and post results.


Offline Kator01

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 01:39:28 PM »
Hey capthook,

Ah, great idea. I like your random way of thinking. A side-effect with this idea is that you reduce the capacity between the windings as well. Some time ago member pese was speaking of a transformer-design
build in germany in the 50 ´s or 60 ´s. They used only iron-wire-windings and by this there was no need of a core because the permeability was built in - so to say.  Of course this design had heat-losses. But it would be intersting to rebouild such a transformer.

Another thing I found some time ago - and I was not sucessfull to find it in my files - but I rememer this :

They said - and this was backed by calculation and tests - that once a load ( weight ) drawn to the coil-core-surface and has come to rest and is in close contact - you can reduce the current to a certain percentage to hold it in place.
So you can try this with your test-rig you already have.

There is another effect where you could combine magnetic-attraction with electrostatic-attraction-forces to hold a load-weight in place if this is needed.By  this combination you can switch off your electromagnet and only have a few miliamps at 200 Volt DC left to to hold the load in place.
It is called Johnson-Rahbeck-Effect ( dicovered in 1920 ) I only have a german description and will provide this here but it will take some time as I have to scan this from an  old german physics-book ( 1940)  and translate it for you.

In the meanwile you can try to find it via different search-engines. One of my favorites is this one here :

http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=

Best Regards

Kator01


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 01:39:28 PM »
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Offline Xaverius

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2008, 07:23:11 AM »
The welding wire idea was just a new/odd idea I thought I'd share - thinking it's probably not a real solution.

Glad you got your ferrite - looking forward to your results! Odd it is 2 pieces - hopefully they are even a better size now to work with.

I ordered mine from where I did because I didn't want that plastic tubing, wanted different sizes, was cheaper, and quicker delivery.  It should be here tommorrow  8)

What are your winding dimensions?
How are you going to test?  1 or 2 "D" batteries (1.5v or 3v) may be easier for testing than 9v?

The "strength" tests I've done are holding strength - as in a traction style EM.  It should be relative to an airgap EM.  They have been geared towards wire size, winding depth and length, and power consumption. 
Using a 5/16" hex bolt as weight and adding nuts and washers to add/subtract to that weight to determine the holding power.  Then weighing it to determine ounces/lbs of pull.
It could also be expressed as: 5/16" x 4" hex bolt with 5 nuts and 3 washers.

Is this a testing method you will pursue?  What other options/methods have you considered?
Anyone else with comments?

The earlier tests were add hock - and I didn't take adequte notes.

Once I get the ferrite - I will perform the above method with various cores and windings and post results.



You're wise to avoid the plastic coated ferrite, a real pain in the neck to remove the plastic, LOL!

Winding dimensions are 80 feet of 26 guage wire which is approximately 300 turns at 4 ohms resistance, 2 layers.  I'm testing with a 9V battery, I can use alligator clip jumper wires, connect one clip to the wire, the other clip to the battery terminal.

My test method consists of an eye bolt approximately 1/2 inch diameter with a nut threaded flush on the end giving an approximate surface diameter of 1 inch.  The eye on the other end is a ring of metal, I place an S hook on it and attach a bucket to the S hook.  While the EM is energized I pour water into the bucket until it breaks loose and falls.  Then I weigh the bucket with water and the hardware(eye bolt and S hook) for pounds of force.  I then multiply that number by 4.4 to obtain the force in Newtons.

BTW, Stormwise advertises their rods as easy to wind wire on the plastic, while keeping the ferrite weather proof.  However, no magnetic field is set up if you try it that way.  Sounds like deceptive advertising to me.

Offline Xaverius

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2008, 08:39:07 PM »
@ CapnHook

No luck with the Ferrite.  A 3 inch core wound with 300 turns of wire and 1.5 amperes yielded 1/10th of a pound of force.  Essentially useless.  I'm going to query some manufacturers for some electric steel samples.  Hope I have better luck, next time.

Offline capthook

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2008, 09:27:14 PM »
Your weight/pull testing idea is a good one.  It's much easier and more accurate to pour water than my method with the nuts and washers.  It's time consuming to add some nuts, then remove a nut, add some washers, etc..
Thanks!!

No luck with the Ferrite. 

What?!!?  Really?  DAMN!  It SEEMS it would make a great core.  I have a little piece laying around, and when I attach a magnet (large or small), the flux pours right through it like it was the magnet itself.

............................... :'(

once a load ( weight ) drawn to the coil-core-surface and has come to rest and is in close contact - you can reduce the current to a certain percentage to hold it in place.
Good point. The effect of an air-gap is almost exponential.  So the smaller the airgap, the flux is x2.  A close approximation is: half the pull for every 1/8" increase of airgap.
However - I wouldn't know how to design a circuit/process for automatically/accurately  adjusting the power draw to take advantage of this effect.  And in real time - it happens very quickly!
Or how to apply it to a (short) pulse/repulsion style EM.

Offline Xaverius

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Re: Winding a strong electromagnet
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2008, 09:44:11 PM »
Your weight/pull testing idea is a good one.  It's much easier and more accurate to pour water than my method with the nuts and washers.  It's time consuming to add some nuts, then remove a nut, add some washers, etc..
Thanks!!

What?!!?  Really?  DAMN!  It SEEMS it would make a great core.  I have a little piece laying around, and when I attach a magnet (large or small), the flux pours right through it like it was the magnet itself.

............................... :'(
Good point. The effect of an air-gap is almost exponential.  So the smaller the airgap, the flux is x2.  A close approximation is: half the pull for every 1/8" increase of airgap.  Of course it depends on the strength of the flux to begin with and the material being affected.

However - I wouldn't know how to design an circuit/process for automatically/accurately  adjusting the power draw to take advantage of this effect.  And in real time - it happens very quickly!
Or how to apply it to a pulse/repulsion style EM.

That small piece of ferrite you have, is it soft or hard?  The one that I ordered is soft.  Is the one you have already magnetized?  Could be I have a defective core.  Perhaps you'll have better luck with the Amidon material.    If you do I might try some.

 

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