Author Topic: Spiral magnet motor (Read 21795 times)

Magnetist · « **on:** October 20, 2008, 11:33:08 PM »

Hi all,

I have been thinking about a magnet motor with magnets arrayed in a fibonacci spiral like fashion. Searching the web I came across a simple device proposed by Mikell here:
http://fdp.nu/mikelldevice/thedevice.asp (not the donut but the simple two-dimensional model).
Does anybody know about this model and has anybody tried and succesfully replicated it?

Andrew

Honk · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2008, 08:34:11 AM »

Hi there Andrew.

The prefered name for the spiral motor is Magnetic Wankel Motor.
You should google on these words for more information.

Myself I'm being involved in a very similar project, namely a Dual Induction Split Spiral Motor.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3456.0

Just to pervent you from making the same mistakes as others trying on the Spiral Motor I can tell you that
it won't work unless using a high tech electromagnet and heavy duty power electronics for precise control.
The sum of the forces within the spiral gradient is always less than the sticky spot. It won't run without help.

/Honk

emitremmah · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2008, 02:06:56 PM »

How about a spiral as in spiral staircase configuration? Anybody done some testing with this type of configuration?
We all know that if you take a line of magnets and a separate magnet you can get motion of the one to many like the SMOT.
Now we also know that the sideways energy to move out of the magnetic field requires less than if going directly out of one of the poles.

So how about a tune with magnets in a spiral on the inside. Then a mechanism like a screw of the same angle which allows a magnet to travel the magnetic course upwards. Then at the top the weight of the magnet and screw drops back to the bottom and starts over again.

??

Magnetist · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2008, 02:43:23 PM »

Thanks Honk.

Quote from: Honk on October 21, 2008, 08:34:11 AM

Just to pervent you from making the same mistakes as others trying on the Spiral Motor I can tell you that it won't work unless using a high tech electromagnet and heavy duty power electronics for precise control.

I understand this is the case for the magnetic wankel motor, but I'm more interested in actual complete spiral configurations of the stator and/or rotor. I still think it should be possible to get such a thing running without the need for heavy duty power electronics.

Quote from: Honk on October 21, 2008, 08:34:11 AM

The sum of the forces within the spiral gradient is always less than the sticky spot. It won't run without help.

Can you or others recommend any free (Linux) software for calculating the forces (and flux) between magnets and also for CAD (ideally combined)?

Andrew

Honk · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2008, 02:49:11 PM »

Quote from: emitremmah on October 21, 2008, 02:06:56 PM

How about a spiral as in spiral staircase configuration? Anybody done some testing with this type of configuration?
Then at the top the weight of the magnet and screw drops back to the bottom and starts over again.

It won't drop in a spiral motor. It will get stuck at the sticky spot.

You should all know it's not about how you arange the magnets in strange ways.
It's only about the magnetic gradient (fall angle) and making sure the sticky spot
and the entry is placed close for an easy transit by the use of an electromagnet.

It will never work without the help from electromagnetism and electronics.
But this is not cheating as long as the electromagnet is using less power than
the motor is producing by the magnetic gradient torque.
When using high quality core material in the electromagnet most of the power
can be recycled by storing the returning BEMF in capacitors.
The only major loss in a good spiral motor design is the resistive copper wire heating.
And this is fairly low compared to the magnetic gradient potential when properly designed.

Honk · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2008, 02:55:44 PM »

Quote from: Magnetist on October 21, 2008, 02:43:23 PM

Thanks Honk.I understand this is the case for the magnetic wankel motor, but I'm more interested in actual complete spiral configurations of the stator and/or rotor.
I still think it should be possible to get such a thing running without the need for heavy duty power electronics.

I can't see this happening. The problem is that you can't store any energy for later use without electronics.
And you won't get back energy (like BEMF from the electromagnet) when passing the sticky spot by brute force.
The rotor magnet will be attracted to the electromagnet core material as well and this is a very good thing.
You must use electronics to make it work.

Quote from: Magnetist on October 21, 2008, 02:43:23 PM

Can you or others recommend any free (Linux) software for calculating the forces (and flux) between magnets and also for CAD (ideally combined)?

I have used this very good force calculator.
http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/Calc_filles/PullAndPushBetween2RectMagnets.asp

You just input the grade, shape and distance between two equal magnets to calculate the force.
In a magnetic wankel the distance between magnets is a gradient slope.
This means you have to calculate the distance from both sides of the rotor magnet to the opposite stator magnet and
then you subtract the lesser force value from the greater. Split the result by two and you have the gradient force.
Nice and simple.

Sometimes the magnetsales calculator have a long response time. I guess there is a lot of people using it.

Paul-R · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2008, 03:48:53 PM »

Quote from: Honk on October 21, 2008, 08:34:11 AM

The prefered name for the spiral motor is Magnetic Wankel Motor.
You should google on these words for more information.
Myself I'm being involved in a very similar project, namely a Dual Induction Split Spiral Motor.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3456.0
/Honk

The Mikell motor is a strange beast. I don't think it is the same as yours.
Paul.

Honk · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2008, 07:17:46 PM »

Quote from: Paul-R on October 21, 2008, 03:48:53 PM

The Mikell motor is a strange beast. I don't think it is the same as yours.
Paul.

Yes, you are right. It's far from my design. I went blind when "Spiral Motor" was mentioned.

Anyway, the last sentence on the site tell how the motor performed.
"Anyway this motor does nothing except it reduced my bank account. The cost for all magnets was about 500 EUR."
It performed no better than a statue....which of course was expected.
There is no magnetic gradient in this type of design, at least not what I can see.

Magnetist · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2008, 07:43:03 PM »

Honk, I did not mean the donut (the "strange beast"). I mean the simple two-dimensional model (scroll down about one third on that page). That certainly doesn't cost â‚¬ 500.

It says on that page:
"Do you know if there are other working models?"
A Yes. There is one in France that I know of that has duplicated the galaxy unit and it works.
At first it didn't because he coiled the legs of the galaxy to tightly but after I corrected him and he re-did it then it worked.

So I'm just curious whether anybody has heard of or tried that simple galaxy-model. That won't cost more than â‚¬ 5 I guess.

Andrew

Quote from: Honk on October 21, 2008, 07:17:46 PM

Yes, you are right. It's far from my design. I went blind when "Spiral Motor" was mentioned.
Anyway, the last sentence on the site tell how the motor performed.
"Anyway this motor does nothing except it reduced my bank account. The cost for all magnets was about 500 EUR."
It performed no better than a statue....which of course was expected.
There is no magnetic gradient in this type of design, at least not what I can see.

Honk · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2008, 11:42:26 PM »

Here it is. The only really working overunity spiral motor, aka The Magnetic Wankel Motor.
http://freenrg.info/Sprain/Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor.avi
The others you pointed out have probably never worked and maybe the inventer was to ashamed
to admit this and continued to push it as working good without having a real device to show.
If there is no proof other than words the device is probably not working either.

Paul-R · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2008, 04:40:53 PM »

Quote from: Honk on October 21, 2008, 11:42:26 PM

Here it is. The only really working overunity spiral motor, aka The Magnetic Wankel Motor.
http://freenrg.info/Sprain/Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor.avi
The others you pointed out have probably never worked and maybe the inventer was to ashamed
to admit this and continued to push it as working good without having a real device to show.
If there is no proof other than words the device is probably not working either.

Don't forget the model on Tom Bearden's site. I think your development is the best, Honk, because
you have dealt with the appalling out of balance forces which would shake any other
motor to pieces,and make enough noise to wake the dead. How is it getting on?
Paul.

Honk · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2008, 12:46:43 PM »

All I can say is that it has been a more extensive project than I ever imagined it to be.
I have put lots of labor into the motor and electronics and everything takes so long time
mostly due to me spending my spare hours on the project. And there have been a couple
of redesigns during the way. And it haven't been cheap. But stay put and I will report my
findings when ready. I guess I'll be ready pretty soon. Maybe a month or two ahead.

FredWalter · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2010, 01:19:27 AM »

Quote from: Honk on October 23, 2008, 12:46:43 PM

But stay put and I will report my
findings when ready. I guess I'll be ready pretty soon. Maybe a month or two ahead.

You wrote this in 2008. Just curious, whatever happened with your motor?

andrewz · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2010, 11:22:02 AM »

Magnet motor only a model )

shylo · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2010, 12:11:23 AM »

if this were built with a rotor shaped like a sphere ,instead of just a flat circle wouldn't this give for many more locations to input a small pulse reducing the amount of power required to make it run?.........Honk are you still here?...........shylo

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Author Topic: Spiral magnet motor (Read 21795 times)

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