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Author Topic: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.  (Read 48626 times)

nitinnun

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the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« on: October 20, 2008, 09:10:56 AM »
i have seen many friction heater prototypes online.
here is a protot-type, of my design.

(you can test the science of this, by quickly rubbing your hands together.
the energy that you spent to rub your hands together, was very efficiently turned into heat.
by the friction of your skin rubbing together.)



1:
buy a big, cheap, sturdy box fan, from your local walton-trustfund-brat-outlet.
like this fan:

http://www.amazon.com/LASKO-20-In-Box-Fan/dp/B00002ND67/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224478668&sr=8-6

this model of lasko fan, has a very sturdy plastic blade.
it is also very elecricity efficient.


2:
"modify" the fans plastic grill.
so that you can "attach" a steel pot to the fan blades.
like this pot:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.breworganic.com/ProductImages/pots_and_systems/7.5-gal-pot.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.breworganic.com/browseproducts/Economy-7.5-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Pot.html&h=470&w=500&sz=27&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__rHc9Wj-oYsEjSSEmEaFuDBP6AuI=&tbnid=B9vHvbNd_Z2PpM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bpot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG

the plastic fan head is very sturdy. and could be made to support even a large pot.
but if need be, you could drill holes into the plastic fan head, and insert steel supports.


3:
attach a slightly bigger pot, to the fan case.
(i plan on attaching steel sheet supports, to this bigger outer-pot. then attaching the steel sheet supports, to the fan case).


4:
pour motor oil into the bigger outer pot.
so that the smaller inner pot rubs against the motor oil, when it spins.

sort of like the drawing at the bottom of this post.


5:
turn on the fan. and hope that the inner pot can spin fast enough, to generate enough heat.

helmut

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 01:26:16 PM »
i have seen many friction heater prototypes online.
here is a protot-type, of my design.

(you can test the science of this, by quickly rubbing your hands together.
the energy that you spent to rub your hands together, was very efficiently turned into heat.
by the friction of your skin rubbing together.)



1:
buy a big, cheap, sturdy box fan, from your local walton-trustfund-brat-outlet.
like this fan:

http://www.amazon.com/LASKO-20-In-Box-Fan/dp/B00002ND67/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224478668&sr=8-6

this model of lasko fan, has a very sturdy plastic blade.
it is also very elecricity efficient.


2:
"modify" the fans plastic grill.
so that you can "attach" a steel pot to the fan blades.
like this pot:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.breworganic.com/ProductImages/pots_and_systems/7.5-gal-pot.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.breworganic.com/browseproducts/Economy-7.5-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Pot.html&h=470&w=500&sz=27&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__rHc9Wj-oYsEjSSEmEaFuDBP6AuI=&tbnid=B9vHvbNd_Z2PpM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bpot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG

the plastic fan head is very sturdy. and could be made to support even a large pot.
but if need be, you could drill holes into the plastic fan head, and insert steel supports.


3:
attach a slightly bigger pot, to the fan case.
(i plan on attaching steel sheet supports, to this bigger outer-pot. then attaching the steel sheet supports, to the fan case).


4:
pour motor oil into the bigger outer pot.
so that the smaller inner pot rubs against the motor oil, when it spins.

sort of like the drawing at the bottom of this post.


5:
turn on the fan. and hope that the inner pot can spin fast enough, to generate enough heat.

Hi
Do you can add a pic of your prototype and add some mesurements as well.
Thanks in advance
helmut

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 01:35:31 PM »
i just realized a few hours ago, that i could abuse common household appliances like this.
so i don't have pictures yet.
but i'm very certain that the physics behind it, will work.


i need to get a box fan.
and decide what the right size for steel pots are.


the pots need to be light enough to spin easily.
yet have enough surface area, to create enough friction, to create enough heat.

resonanceman

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 02:46:37 PM »
i just realized a few hours ago, that i could abuse common household appliances like this.
so i don't have pictures yet.
but i'm very certain that the physics behind it, will work.


i need to get a box fan.
and decide what the right size for steel pots are.


the pots need to be light enough to spin easily.
yet have enough surface area, to create enough friction, to create enough heat.

nitinnun

If I remember right in another  post you said   you  usually get  the  general  part right but might  be off on the details .     
Getting  something  built  the first time is all about the details .

No  I am not  British    :)


Although   in general   the  basic  concepts seem  sound  actually  gettnig everthing  working together   presents some problems .

If  you removed the  fan  blade  and  made a " lid " for the inner  pan that was  strong  enough to  support  the weight  of the pan the   chances of success  would  go  up  quite a bit .

The  fan blade  has no  flat  surface  that it  convienient to   attach  something to .  even  if  you   got   your pan  bolted on with enough  accuracy to  spin easily    plastic   that  holds weight  tends to " creep"     it  will slowly deform so  it will not  stay  in  allignment .   adding  heat would make  the  creep worse .   

  One   detail  that might make it  more likely to work  is to   plan on  not using much oil.
By this I mean  design  it with the  inner pan SETTING inside the outer pan .   Not suspended  above the  bottom.   Just  add enough   oil to  provide some lubrication  ( maybe a teaspoon  of oil at the  most )
The   large pan   will  carry the weight  of the  inner pan  all that you  would have to do is  make sure the inner  pan is centered well enough  and attached strong enough .

Any metal to metal friction  will make it  work more like the heating  device that  uses  wood for  friction ...... except  the   metal   will  last along longer than the wood  .

Using  water in place of oil might  be a possibility but  would make things  difficult . The  water  would have to be replaced at the proper rate . 


gary

 

yaz

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 07:23:41 PM »
You know what a really good friction heater is... an automatic transmission. That's why it NEEDS a cooler to keep it from overheating. Don't believe me? Plug up your tranny cooler lines and take a 20 minute drive on the highway, you'll be sitting on the side of the road with a smoking transmission!
That's what happened to me when my external cooler plugged up. Got it working...$2100 later!

So try using transmission fluid and maybe putting some metallic filings in the oil to create more friction. I know when I change my fluid I have magnets in the pan and they're always covered in metallic filings. Hey...Just change your transmission fluid and use THAT! It already has enough metal fillings and crap in it to ruin your transmission, but perfect for a heater!! Plus you'll be doing your vehicle a favour!

Also adding a flywheel would help out the motor spinning all that mass.

winner

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 08:55:11 PM »
The trick here of course is rigging something that produces more energy out than in. I've been following discussions and websites regarding the Frenette heater scheme and so far I haven't seen that anyone's been successful.

Easy enough to build I suppose, but one would have to do accurate measurements to see if this is really any more effective than a commercial space heater.
 

resonanceman

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 10:40:43 PM »
You know what a really good friction heater is... an automatic transmission. That's why it NEEDS a cooler to keep it from overheating. Don't believe me? Plug up your tranny cooler lines and take a 20 minute drive on the highway, you'll be sitting on the side of the road with a smoking transmission!
That's what happened to me when my external cooler plugged up. Got it working...$2100 later!

So try using transmission fluid and maybe putting some metallic filings in the oil to create more friction. I know when I change my fluid I have magnets in the pan and they're always covered in metallic filings. Hey...Just change your transmission fluid and use THAT! It already has enough metal fillings and crap in it to ruin your transmission, but perfect for a heater!! Plus you'll be doing your vehicle a favour!

Also adding a flywheel would help out the motor spinning all that mass.

I am not  sure  if the metal  particles are a good idea  but  transmission fluid  could  take   the heat .....but  it would also  make less heat .   It is low  viscosity in part to limit  the heat  that it  creates . 


gary

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2008, 12:24:51 AM »
the models i saw online, claimed to produce more heat-energy, than they took energy to run.
it is a question of having great enough friction, and light enough spinning metal.

but i am not greedy. so i will settle for a very efficient electricity to heat conversion rate.

winner

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 12:33:31 AM »
Yeah, I like this idea, but what would burning tranny oil smell like indoors? Isn't there some sort of oil lubricant that would smell nice? If the oil was scented that would be an added bonus.

Can you make one with tropical smells, maybe coconut and sea salt? Hehehe

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 01:43:40 AM »
nitinnun

If I remember right in another  post you said   you  usually get  the  general  part right but might  be off on the details .     
Getting  something  built  the first time is all about the details .

No  I am not  British    :)


Although   in general   the  basic  concepts seem  sound  actually  gettnig everthing  working together   presents some problems .

If  you removed the  fan  blade  and  made a " lid " for the inner  pan that was  strong  enough to  support  the weight  of the pan the   chances of success  would  go  up  quite a bit .

The  fan blade  has no  flat  surface  that it  convienient to   attach  something to .  even  if  you   got   your pan  bolted on with enough  accuracy to  spin easily    plastic   that  holds weight  tends to " creep"     it  will slowly deform so  it will not  stay  in  allignment .   adding  heat would make  the  creep worse .   

  One   detail  that might make it  more likely to work  is to   plan on  not using much oil.
By this I mean  design  it with the  inner pan SETTING inside the outer pan .   Not suspended  above the  bottom.   Just  add enough   oil to  provide some lubrication  ( maybe a teaspoon  of oil at the  most )
The   large pan   will  carry the weight  of the  inner pan  all that you  would have to do is  make sure the inner  pan is centered well enough  and attached strong enough .

Any metal to metal friction  will make it  work more like the heating  device that  uses  wood for  friction ...... except  the   metal   will  last along longer than the wood  .

Using  water in place of oil might  be a possibility but  would make things  difficult . The  water  would have to be replaced at the proper rate . 


gary





when i am creating new theorives, that might be true.
when i am building things, there are far less unknowns. so my efficiency is higher.


a person learns more from mistakes, than they learn from doing things "correctly".

a builder who makes 1,000 different mistakes, and learns from them, knows far more than a builder who did it "sufficiently" 1,000 times.

or at least the builder does, if they are able to learn from experience.
and their learning ability isn't limited to sheer pre-calculation, of their plans.



most of the time, i can "see" the mistake in my mind, before i make it.
and choose a better building method instead.

sometimes i see a "mistake" that i was not going to make. yet learn from it.
sometimes that mistake is a part of a revolutionary new way of building.

you could describe my building style as "rapid construction evolution".

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 02:04:02 AM »


and i have only begun to explore the possible ways, to build this friction heater.

the inner pan can be attached to the fan in MANY ways.
and not all of them have to be geologically perfect, to work great.

this is not some math problem, that has only 1 answer.



if the pan is large enough, i could secure it to both the fan head and blades.

i have an older model of that box fan, that doesn't work.
i did on autopsy on it, to get an idea of what i am working with.

that plastic fan head is VERY solid. even with weight and heat, it would take a long time for that fan head to go.
if i "reinforce" it well, it could last longer yet.

and if the fan did go, a new box fan is only $16.



the motor oil is needed.
it is thicker, so it creates more friction. the friction is what causes the heat.

the motor oil is made of carbon. it conducts the heat into the metals, then into the air. so it can warm the air.
the more surface area rubbing against motor oil, the more friction.



the higher the motor oil, the more it is supporting the inner pan too.
so that the fan head isn't taking all the weight.

the motor oil would also absorb some of "throw off" force. to keep the inner pan from wobbling too much.

the motor oil might even convert the vibrating sound energy, into a form which is less noisy.
the vibrating sound might even ADD to the electron disruptance. indirectly causing even more heat.



we DO NOT want metal grinding on metal.
that would be loud, inefficient, and would cause the inner pan to bounce around like mad.



water wouldn't have enough liscosity. it wouldn't cause enough friction.

the water is also too efficient at absorbing heat.
while the motor oil would conduct the heat to the metal around it.

the water is a poorer lubricant than motor oil too.

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 02:21:30 AM »

oh. and i could add heat sinks to the outer pan. to increase the rate that heat is diffused into the air in the house.

this would cause the outer pan to hold less heat than the inner pan.
so the outer pan would have heat diffuse into it, and away from the inner pan.

so the inner pan would stay cooler, reducing the warpage rate on the plastic fan head.


if i did it just right, i could even weld steel plates to the inside of the inner pan.
to act as heat sinks for the air inside the inner pan.

if i arranged the inner pan plates right, one row of them could force air into the inner pan, and the other row could force air out of the inner pan.
like this:

  ^  v
  I   I
  I   I
  I   I
   U

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 03:33:40 AM »
the inside of the lasko's plastic fan head, could have covered with a thick layer of heat resistant epoxy.
to strengthen its shape against warpage.


epoxy is extremely tough. and would have no trouble bonding to the plastic.

nitinnun

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 12:18:48 PM »
instead of steel pots, i'm going to use thin steel sheeting.


the steel sheeting isn't as humorously simple as steel cooking pots.
but it is lighter, cheaper, easier to make into the desired shape and size, and much more likely to give me a 100% + efficiency.

i'm going to solder it together, with a very strong soldering iron.
(it was designed to never run for more than a few minutes at a time. or else the heat damage will destroy it.)


the bottom pot will be a steel cylinder, soldered to a flat steel square.
i might solder "heatsinks" onto the outside of the bottom pot. so that the heat goes into the air faster.



the inner pot won't even be a pot.
it will be several steel cylinders. one larger than the one inside it.

multiple cylinders will increase the surface area, for motor oil to rub on.

and hopefully prevent wobbling. because of the extra inertia, that is not wanting to change its axis of movement.


i might leave an unlevel slit on the seam of each inner cylinder.
so that each cylinder "catches" motor oil, as it spins.
exactly like a cheese shredder catches cheese.

the captured motor oil will create friction as it bounces against the surface area inside the cylinders, slides downwards against the surface area, and as one motor oil molecule collides with another motor oil molecule.

the weight of the captured motor oil inside the cylinders, might reduce cylinder wobbling.
or maybe the violently sloshing around motor oil will increase cylinder wobbling.
we will have to see.


at the center of the multi-cylinders, there might be 2 steel sheeting tubes.
one inside the other.
one steel sheeting tube attached to the cylinders, and the other attached to the outer pot.

these would prevent what little wobbling gets past the other features.

Creativity

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Re: the incredibly simple, cheap, sturdy friction heater.
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 04:52:52 PM »
but i am not greedy. so i will settle for a very efficient electricity to heat conversion rate.

ok i don't get it :) did u knew that for example electric water heater is about 93% efficient in turning electricity into heat?IHMO producing of heat from electricity is the smallest problem we need to solve .Other way around is much more difficult :|

i must admit i have a flawn understanding of how would a friction heater be more effective than a plain resistive wire  ::)