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Author Topic: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?  (Read 10650 times)

Offline djeenius

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Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« on: October 15, 2008, 05:54:54 PM »
Hello,

I found from a mythbusters forum
under a new energy discussion
http://www.mythbustersforum.com/viewforum.php?f=8 (there is a poll to vote)

discussion about using cheap sodium and water
http://www.mythbustersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11

to generate hydrogen.
This could be used to run cars on regular water.
They don't claim overunity, but sort of battery use,
if the explosive nature of the reaction
could be mechanically controlled.

The over unity discussion on that site was quite sceptic
so I assume this could have a realistic point.  ???

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline triffid

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2008, 07:13:52 PM »
Sodium metal(i don't think its cheap) will react violently with water to liberate hydrogen but its hard to control.It is not overunity.Triffid

Offline djeenius

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2008, 08:34:20 PM »
Thanks for quick and smart reply.

As you point out price of sodium in the metallic form (not salt!)
is definitely a key issue.

I did also some research

It would appear that sodium might not be too expensive compared to the extreme energy contents.

A link about extreme reaction
http://www.periodictable.com/Stories/011.2/index.html

I found price of 13 EUr /kg in 50 kg scale,
http://www.special-metals.com/sodium.html

One coulld assume that in ton scale the price would be a fraction
of this. Assuming that it would not need to be pure
but potassium and earth alkalis from sea water would also work,
this may allow price level of a few, may be 0.5-5 Eur /USD /kg ??

The reactions of sodium are exremely violent so huge amounts of energy can
be released.
Would need to find exact reaction energy, any ideas?

Part of the energy is in form of Hydrogen gas exploding from the
heat of reaction. H2 is obtained as about 1 /23 (ratio of atomic weights)
part of mass sodium,  based on  reaction(2 Na + H20 -> 2 NaOH + H2)
giving amount of about 50 grams or 25 mol  (about 550 liters).
H2 energy content can be considered.

Building a machine using this reaction would be require some creativity.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2008, 08:34:20 PM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2008, 02:38:35 AM »
Thanks for quick and smart reply.

As you point out price of sodium in the metallic form (not salt!)
is definitely a key issue.

I did also some research

It would appear that sodium might not be too expensive compared to the extreme energy contents.

A link about extreme reaction
http://www.periodictable.com/Stories/011.2/index.html

I found price of 13 EUr /kg in 50 kg scale,
http://www.special-metals.com/sodium.html

One coulld assume that in ton scale the price would be a fraction
of this. Assuming that it would not need to be pure
but potassium and earth alkalis from sea water would also work,
this may allow price level of a few, may be 0.5-5 Eur /USD /kg ??

The reactions of sodium are exremely violent so huge amounts of energy can
be released.
Would need to find exact reaction energy, any ideas?

Part of the energy is in form of Hydrogen gas exploding from the
heat of reaction. H2 is obtained as about 1 /23 (ratio of atomic weights)
part of mass sodium,  based on  reaction(2 Na + H20 -> 2 NaOH + H2)
giving amount of about 50 grams or 25 mol  (about 550 liters).
H2 energy content can be considered.

Building a machine using this reaction would be require some creativity.


according to http://www.shec-labs.com/calc/fuel_energy_equivalence.php
550 L of  h2 is = to .17 L of gasoline
not cheap imho
you can also do this with aluminium but same problem not cheap

















Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline triffid

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2008, 08:12:40 PM »
Calcium metal and potassium metal react violently with water too (just like sodium metal) to liberate hydrogen ,leaving the hydroxide of the metal behind.However CaOH
does not dissolve well in water( can be found in whitewash) whereas NaOH and KOH will.Triffid

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2008, 08:12:40 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2008, 08:20:13 PM »
I do not approve of mixing chemicals together just to see what happens.These sodium parties are dangerous where all one does is throw a lump of sodium into a lake leaving behind NaOH for the lake's ecosystem to contend with.Triffid

Offline khabe

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 12:50:47 AM »
Have you ever calculated what will be the cost of your Hydrogen, using any method from this forum?
I dont want to say not any bad words about, just  interested.
Regards,
khabe

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/2936846.html
The basic process, electrolysis, is nothing new: Combine water with an electrolyte, and run current through the solution, forcing the water molecules to split into hydrogen and oxygen gases. But electrolysis-formed hydrogen has long been hampered by the high capital cost of the metals ::) used in the process, around “thousands of dollars per kilowatt,” :o says Richard Bourgeois, GE’s electrolysis project leader. GE’s breakthrough comes from a proprietary material called Noryl, a highly chemical- and temperature-resistant plastic developed by the GE labs, that lowers the cost of hydrogen production to hundreds of dollars per kilowatt, according to Bourgeois.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 12:50:47 AM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 06:17:40 PM »
I think someone means "sodium water" to mean sodium hydroxide, i.e. what you get
if you drop sodium into water.

Sodium hydroxide is used in the Boyce electrolyser which produces 50 litres per min
(peak: 100LPM). This would power a smal car. It is described half way down this file:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
Paul.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 12:00:22 AM »
G'day,

Has anyone thought of using calcium carbide?

Calcium carbide when combined with water generates acetylene gas. The reaction is vigorous but not dangerous. In the past it has been used in welders and lamps, in fact in many parts of the world this technology is still used. The apparatus is simple to build, in fact little more than a tank filled with calcium carbide and a water tank that dribbles water into the calcium carbide on demand.

Because the acetylene is generated as needed the storage problems associated with acetylene do not arise. Drawback is a foul smelling sludge that is left over from the reaction which might present a disposal problem.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 12:00:22 AM »
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Offline Kator01

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Re: Sodium-Water to make H2 Fuel For Cars, can this be true?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 12:35:06 AM »
Hi Hans.

yes you are right. I remember my father - he was a gold & silver-smith - used this unitl the mid-sixties. As far as I remember it was a 15 ltr-vessel and the carbide-mass was just about the size of an adutls fist. It was placed in a open cage above the waterlevel and you would lower is according your need (volume of gas). But I doubt that the amount produced will be sufficient for a vehicle. It was just enough for a small burner-flame.

Regards

Kator

PS : Sodium is very dangerous to handle. But somenthing is about this Kanzius-design. He uses saltwater and splits it wih radio-frequencies. Someone could check what the color of the flame is he is producing. This might give a clue if sodium is involved. I do not know where to find his video-Demos

 

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