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Author Topic: Minato Motor Modification  (Read 27372 times)

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2006, 05:50:01 AM »
Ok I see what you?ve done.

Here's what I tried:
In the following configuration the magnets do not get attracted to the shield.
2 disk magnets 1/8? thick by 5/8 Dia
Facing each other N-N
Shield: common steel sheet very thin about 4-5 copy paper thickness
Placed the shield about 3/32? using balsa wood for spacer between the magnets
Npole ? 3/32?spacer ? Shield ? 3/32?Spacer-Npole

The magnets do repel but not as strong repulsion. When I remove the shield the repulsion is much greater, cant even hold em aligned.
Also the thickness of the shielding material seems to be important for the above type of configuration. BTW, I also tried 1/6 thick plate and 1/8 and both magnets were attracted to it! I think there must be a relation between type of material, thickness and magnet strength. The magnets were from the local craft store, they had a label print of 2000 gauss on the box.

Vaporwing's setup (two counter rotating magnet mounting disks) would be great to test the addition of a vertical shield and few different spacing, thickness, material configurations.

Peter,
Your feedback is much appreciated.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2006, 05:50:01 AM »

Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2006, 06:43:42 AM »
Mike
There is a fine line between attraction and repulsion when you use shielding. You say,"The magnets do repel but not as strong repulsion." but there must be some force which overcomes this repulsion to force the magnet to the point where the repulsion rotates the wheel. BTW, I think the Vaporwings design crowds too many magnets into a small space. I think your design is better. Now you must commit to construction and don't be fooled by animation.
Peter

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2006, 10:28:45 AM »
Mike
There is a fine line between attraction and repulsion when you use shielding. You say,"The magnets do repel but not as strong repulsion." but there must be some force which overcomes this repulsion to force the magnet to the point where the repulsion rotates the wheel. BTW, I think the Vaporwings design crowds too many magnets into a small space. I think your design is better. Now you must commit to construction and don't be fooled by animation.
Peter

While it is true that animations can fool the eyes, but magnetic simulations have math to back them up.
http://femm.foster-miller.net/

Download it, use it, love it!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2006, 10:28:45 AM »
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Offline juspot82

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2006, 04:20:31 PM »

While it is true that animations can fool the eyes, but magnetic simulations have math to back them up.
http://femm.foster-miller.net/

Download it, use it, love it!

Animations may be fooling and simulations may have math to back them up, but there is an issue with both of them. They are 2D and we live and experiment in a 3D world. The FEMM simulator may be good for a few things, but there's always the 3rd dimension that it can't handle. I just don't believe a 2D simulator can properly demonstrate a 3D problem. The only real way to know is to build it, that's something no simulator can compare to.

If you build it in a simulator and it doesnt work, that's no reason to give up on the idea. If it works in the simulator, there's no guarantee it will work in the real world no matter how accurate the math is.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2006, 04:59:44 PM »
Does this overlap with the Zirbes device? Also a strange wheel discussed in the free energy YahooGroup run by Stefan Harti with spoon shaped wings and a mu-metal shielding feature?
Paul.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2006, 04:59:44 PM »
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Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2006, 05:03:47 AM »
Mike
There is a fine line between attraction and repulsion when you use shielding. You say,"The magnets do repel but not as strong repulsion." but there must be some force which overcomes this repulsion to force the magnet to the point where the repulsion rotates the wheel. BTW, I think the Vaporwings design crowds too many magnets into a small space. I think your design is better. Now you must commit to construction and don't be fooled by animation.
Peter

Yes that's the general idea when talking about differential net repulsive forces, with and without shield. We need to break the symmetry even if the break is small.
Basically we want lower repulsion when the magnets are shielded and higher when they are not as the test I posted above demonstrates.

All the magnets on the two disks have the N poles out and the wheel rotations are synchronized (gears of equal Pitch Dia and number of teeth in the back)

I can?t tell if Vaporwings model has too many or too few magnets. But he has build a ?wheel? already and it would be easier to adapt minor modifications to it rather than build the whole thing from scratch, as a starting test at least.:) As the old saying goes, why try to reinvent the wheel, focus on improving it.

I fully agree with all the posters about modeling theory and reality. Modeling on paper greatly assists the visualization process and helps debugging most of major issues. But the proof relies on actual physical working models. Theory is great to get to the ballpark but not always agrees with practice/reality. I recall way back when using FEA on SunSpark2 and the results, graphics and numbers for certain models looked ?great? but it was just about impossible to physically manufacture, mass produce the parts even with state of the art technology.

A side point on modeling.
Another issue about mathematical modeling when it is used for research close to the fringes of our knowledge base:
Modeling of any type is in essence a set of mathematical formulas using user input and providing some output. The premise is, these formulas are true and based on physics laws as we presently know them. History however, has shown repeatedly that many times we had to revise the laws in order to fit new discoveries observations and understandings. By default then, any present mathematical model may not be the best way to predict a new discovery.

Back to the project at hand, precision construction and friction minimization are also key factors
Construction at this very moment is much easier said than done, but viable.

I'm also exploring the idea of using ring magnets so gears and synchronization is not an issue. It may make the construction easier, build and test. Instead of discreet impulses it ?should? be a continuous smooth rotation if it works.
Let?s say, ring magnets with the N pole on the outside wall and S pole on the inside. !

Thanks


Thanks

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2006, 10:15:04 AM »
I just don't believe a 2D simulator can properly demonstrate a 3D problem.
It will simulate the opposing wheel concept with a third dimension accurately, the only thing it can not simulate overlapping objects. Since there are no overlapping parts and all components share a common depth, it should be a very accurate way to find the best angles and magnet ratios to produce the torque needed for self start. You can go in blind on assumptions, but simulations can be quite useful in flushing out ideas like this.

But if a true third dimension is necessary you can work in Solidworks. I dont have a way to give you a free copy though. Its kinda expensive and super hard to teach ones self, but well worth the price for engineers who need proof of concept before dumping thousands in to a prototype.

If it works in the simulator, there's no guarantee it will work in the real world no matter how accurate the math is.
Ummmm... yeah it does.... o_O
It can simulate all AC/DC motors, it'll even simulate static charge simulations like the testatica ML. If you would just download it, install it, read the tutorials, and work with the samples, you will find out it can easily and acurately calculate: angles of force, torque around a point, transformer outputs, induction, back EMF, and so much more...

All I'm trying to do is help out other members the best I can, and I really do believe this software could be useful to anyone experimenting in this field.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2006, 10:15:04 AM »
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Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2006, 05:38:55 PM »
I reconstructed one of my old designs which didn't act as I hoped but might work better with shielding (weekend project). I uploaded video and photos to http://theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html . My early attempts with 2 shielded rotors didn't work well but ther is much to be learned by failure.
Peter

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2006, 07:38:01 PM »
Dingus Mungus
?All I'm trying to do is help out other members the best I can, and I really do believe this software could be useful to anyone experimenting in this field?

Agreed, modeling software definitely has a very helpful place in the development process, as it helps focusing thoughts and visualizing the designs.


tropes
?My early attempts with 2 shielded rotors didn't work well but ther is much to be learned by failure.?

..as the ole saying goes, the greatest inventors have failed their way to success. Yep many if not all had to find all the ways that it doesn?t work first before the one that works became apparent. :)

We can only keep on trying...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2006, 07:38:01 PM »
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Offline tropes

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Re: Minato Motor Modification
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2006, 05:11:41 PM »
I added a strip of Mumetal shielding between the rotor and the stators but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I uploaded a photo to  http://theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html . I would like to hear from anyone who has tried to design a magnetic engine using the attraction force of magnets.
Peter

 

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