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Author Topic: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?  (Read 81337 times)

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #360 on: September 03, 2006, 04:30:24 AM »
Thanks Stefan, Prajna, tbird, for all your efforts and time.

I was going to order the clear pvc pipe and fittings to start my own experiments on Friday, but thankfully I was delayed and now you all convinced me this is just another pipe dream (pun).

So we must assume that Mr. Herring never had a working model, and he is just another talker. He never toured with a working unit either. No wonder we never heard of him before. Sadly I don't understand why people do this again and again to try and fool us all.

Again thank you all. The logic, calculations, and discussion were very interesting. You saved me the money I was about to outlay on the piping too.

Good luck everyone.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #360 on: September 03, 2006, 04:30:24 AM »

Offline prajna

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #361 on: September 03, 2006, 11:15:24 AM »
I think Mr Herring was only trying to fool us because he had fooled himself.  It is very easy to do.  I sure managed to fool myself several times into thinking this would work; with tiny errors in my calculations proving first that it would and then that it wouldn't and then that it would again.  Unless you have another pair of eyes to check your work it is very easy to miss small mistakes in logic or a decimal point in the wrong place.

No problem; roll on the next project.

Offline 2tiger

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #362 on: September 04, 2006, 09:53:33 AM »
Hi Tbird

As I lost my first girlfriend, my mother said to me:
"Don?t cry because it?s over, better smile, thinking of the good time you have had together."

Well this is not quite the same, but it will help you to go on with your researches.
Thanks a lot for the good discussion.

Bye
2Tiger



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #362 on: September 04, 2006, 09:53:33 AM »
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Offline prajna

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ELSA back in business
« Reply #363 on: September 05, 2006, 03:08:22 PM »
Hi guys, I've just come up with a way around the problem with ELSA.  Take a look at http://www.DeclarePeace.org.uk/elsa/buoyeng.htm and let me have your comments.

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #364 on: September 05, 2006, 05:31:43 PM »
Prajna,

Now that looks very interesting. I need to admit that I had not given up on the ELSA idea, and was brainstorming on Stephan's Cartesian diver variation. I wanted to simplify the shuttle and get rid of the compression problem but I just couldn't figure a way to get the shuttle to descend. I love the way you put in the pressure piston idea. I could see using a the water collected above to drive a variation on leverage to get enough pressure to press on the piston.

Nice innovation, Elsa may not be dead yet.

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #364 on: September 05, 2006, 05:31:43 PM »
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Offline prajna

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #365 on: September 05, 2006, 05:56:45 PM »
Quote
I could see using a the water collected above to drive a variation on leverage to get enough pressure to press on the piston

That's the plan.

The whole thing is significantly simpler, in engineering terms, than ELSA.

Offline prajna

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Closer and further away.
« Reply #366 on: September 05, 2006, 07:10:19 PM »
Just noticed that this new design reduces the quantity of water pumped on each cycle.  So it won't work.  Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Closer and further away.
« Reply #366 on: September 05, 2006, 07:10:19 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #367 on: September 05, 2006, 11:13:03 PM »
Hi Pranja,
yes, we should use the massive volume the ELSA was able to
lift above the shuttle, but just use it in a different way, like
pumping it still under water into a pipe, where it turns a generator
or would wind up a spring or something else, so one could later recompress
the ELSA shuttle.
As long as you keep the water below the sealevel, it still has great
potential to lift really a lot of water above the shuttle...
So this must just be used differently I guess.

Let?s see, if you turn a gear via a pump at sealevel and
gear it up, so you can lift an external weight, how much
weight can be lifted how high ?

Regards, Stefan.

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #368 on: September 06, 2006, 04:05:40 AM »
Stefan,

Now that sounds like great "out of the box" type thinking. Whoever said the water had to be pumped above sea-level? The moving water needs to be harnessed for energy. Enough to compress the shuttle, or a variation of compression in Prajna's cartesian diver type design. The compression mechanism would need to be above sea level but not necessarily the energy collecting one.

Prajna's idea of the magnetic piston, cartesian-diver shuttle may still have potential. It does simplify the shuttle design.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #368 on: September 06, 2006, 04:05:40 AM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #369 on: September 06, 2006, 08:56:26 AM »
here is an idea !

We never have used hydrogens lightweight and hardcompresibility properties.

I suggest shuttle that is when went is opened fills up with water and goes down to bottom of
device.
At the bottom of device (or some natural area... sea,lake) there is effifcient (only 80%) electrolyzer who will fill the shuttle
with lightweight H2O2 gass. Shuttle than climbes up and when reaches top point of device we take H2O2.

So energy should be extracted from

heavy shuttle going down (metal shuttle filled with watter),
light shuttle (filled with H2O2) going up,
and H2O2 extraction from shuttle when it reaches the top.


wizkycho

Offline prajna

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #370 on: September 06, 2006, 10:42:48 AM »
@ Stefan and ResinRat2,

There is a difference between pumping volume and pumping pressure.  In the ELSA example we have great pumping volume and tiny pumping pressure.  In the Cartesian Pump example the situation is reversed.  The head height is simply a measure of pumping pressure.  You can think of it as an analogy of electricity.  In the first example we have large amperage and low voltage, in the second we have big volts and low amps.

@ wizkycho,
I have added calculations of the total power generated in each cycle and it is disappointingly low compared to the energy required for recompression.  I don't know the energy that would be required for electrolysis but I imagine it would be greater than the energy generated by the cycle.  If you could calculate the energy required to produce 3 litres of H2O2 and the energy contained in that H2O2 then we might be able to evaluate your suggestion.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #370 on: September 06, 2006, 10:42:48 AM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #371 on: September 06, 2006, 12:24:30 PM »
(http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/mt108.jpg)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 09:32:39 PM by FreeEnergy »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #372 on: September 06, 2006, 04:21:16 PM »
@ Stefan and ResinRat2,

There is a difference between pumping volume and pumping pressure.  In the ELSA example we have great pumping volume and tiny pumping pressure.  In the Cartesian Pump example the situation is reversed.  The head height is simply a measure of pumping pressure.  You can think of it as an analogy of electricity.  In the first example we have large amperage and low voltage, in the second we have big volts and low amps.


Hi Pranja,
we could also have a SMALLER exit header tube going sideways under the water already.

So then we will have no problem to pump all the water through this small exit header tube and
thus have there also a lot of pressure inside this smaller diameter pipe.
This way we can avoid the hydrostatic paradoxon.

We can do this easily
by having the exit header tube turn sideways under the sealevel already, so
the buoyancy force of the shuttle can always press the whole water above it
into the small pipe, which drives a water pump or a syringe like piston inside the exit tube.

If we go with a syringe like piston, we can have a look at it,
with how much force it moves and then calculate via multiplication
of the distance s  it moves the output energy W= F x s .

Now if we pull up with this syringe piston a weight,
we could use this later to recompress the shuttle
again.

Will this work ?

Offline prajna

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #373 on: September 06, 2006, 06:11:00 PM »
Stefan,

At the end of my Cartesian Pump (http://www.DeclarePeace.org.uk/elsa/buoyeng.htm) page I have calculated the energy required to recompress the shuttle and the energy generated by the sinking/buoyancy pumping cycle.  You can ignore all of the mechanics of how the pumping energy is used and just compare it to the recompression energy requirement.  It doesn't come close. So it makes no difference what scheme you come up with, it will never produce enough energy to recompress the shuttle (or compression chamber or whatever else you choose to use.)

I have even added a calculator that lets you change various parameters and then calculates the results (though I have yet to add a recompression section to it.)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Gravity Mill - any comments to this idea?
« Reply #374 on: September 06, 2006, 06:31:45 PM »
Hi Pranja,
for what case is the calculation there ?

I think,
if we stick with the original ELSA,
but just move the water inside a pipe sideways at seawaterlevel and
never go over seawaterlevel with it and
have a syringe piston in the exit tube, so the
piston will pull up a weight, which then
could recompress via leverage the shuttle,
it will indeed work.
When I have more time I will calculate it all through
with an example.

We just have to avoid the hydrostatic paradoxon only
and thus pump the water sideways out into an exit pipe
below seawaterlevel.
Then we will benefit from all the water that is pumped up
via the shuttle.

 

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