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Author Topic: Faraday's Paradox experiment  (Read 168422 times)

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2009, 11:09:14 PM »
@broli:

I corrected the image so it will now have a voltage.  I can't believe I made that mistake in the drawing, LOL.  I moved both brushes to the right disc.  The wires will not rotate, they will remain stationary with the stationary disc and magnet on the left side.  I don't know what I was thinking.  This should provide a forward torque from the left magnet and a counter torque from the right magnet.  The end result would be equivalent to eliminating the counter torque.

Edit:  The orange wire on the right side should be pointing down and the purple wire on the right should be pointing up.  I forgot to make this correction in the image.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:11:05 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2009, 11:09:14 PM »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2009, 01:54:21 AM »
If you need me to upload a video showing it has voltage, I will.  I've already tested it.  My volt meter reads 3mv when I test between the rim of the stationary magnet and the rim of the rotating magnet with a nail connected to both magnets at the axis.  I'm only getting 3mv out of the system because of a low rpm and very small diameter neo magnets.   Voltage output is too low to determine if the counter torque would be eliminated or not.  I tried both the north and south poles of the stationary magnet and I received the same 3mv.  I have the same voltage in the system when I test between the axis and rim of the rotating conductive magnet without the stationary magnet. 

I have a resistor across the terminals of my volt meter to eliminate a false reading from my pc fan and other external sources.  When the terminals of my meter aren't connected, it shows 0 volts even in close proximity to the magnets.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 02:41:07 AM by gravityblock »

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2009, 12:48:42 AM »

As current flows through the stationary disc from axis to the rim, it will create a torque on the stationary magnet. 

What am I overlooking?

Are you sure the magnet will rotate?   It interacts with the magnetic field, not the magnet.

Why does the disk rotate at all?

What is a conductor, or a conductive disk?   

Is it somehow changed when placed in a magnetic field?

A magnetic field is a homogenous standing wave.  With a cylindrical magnet, the standing wave does not appear to change.  Why would it? 

You can create a comparable version of the Faraday HPG by rotating a dielectric disc, but you must take the current off with plates perpendicular to the disc and magnetic field.  This is known as the Wilson Effect.

The real trick would be to make a conductor or dielectric "appear" to rotate without actually rotating it physically, so that you get an interaction with the magnetic field and the generation of a current. 

To  do that we need to know what a conductor and dielectric really are and why homopolar devices work at all.



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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2009, 12:48:42 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2009, 03:45:11 AM »
Are you sure the magnet will rotate?   It interacts with the magnetic field, not the magnet.

Current running radially through a disc will cause a magnet to rotate.  This is how a homopolar motor works.

Magnetic fields can move electrical charges.  Magnetic fields have a force on the moving charges (electrons) that make up the electric field in a magnet.  Magnetic fields do not have a force on other magnetic fields, they have a force on each other's electric fields which is made up of charges.

The magnetic field of the magnet doesn't rotate with the magnet, but the electric fields of the magnet and disc do rotate with the magnet and disc.  This is how a magnetic field can cause a magnet or disc to rotate.

The magnetic field of the magnet and the magnetic field of the current running through the disc acts on each other's electric fields which is in opposition to each other, thus a counter torque.

When a disc rotates through the magnetic field of a magnet, the charges are separated on the disc.  This sets up an EMF or static electric field in the disc with a force in one direction.  Since the charges aren't moving in the disc do to no return path, there is no magnetic field acting on the electric field of the magnet.

An external circuit provides a return path for those separated charges to move.  As soon as those charges start to move through the disc, the magnetic field created by those moving charges have a force on the magnet's electric field that is against the rotation of the magnet.  Increasing the amount of current moving through the disc will increase the strength of the magnetic field of the current providing more opposition to the electric field of the magnet, which increases the counter torque.

An induced magnetic field is always in opposition to the magnetic field that induced it, due to the magnetic fields acting on each other's electric fields or moving charges. 

GB

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2009, 01:03:42 PM »
Current running radially through a disc will cause a magnet to rotate.  This is how a homopolar motor works.

Magnetic fields can move electrical charges.  Magnetic fields have a force on the moving charges (electrons) that make up the electric field in a magnet.  Magnetic fields do not have a force on other magnetic fields, they have a force on each other's electric fields which is made up of charges.

The magnetic field of the magnet doesn't rotate with the magnet, but the electric fields of the magnet and disc do rotate with the magnet and disc.  This is how a magnetic field can cause a magnet or disc to rotate.

The magnetic field of the magnet and the magnetic field of the current running through the disc acts on each other's electric fields which is in opposition to each other, thus a counter torque.

When a disc rotates through the magnetic field of a magnet, the charges are separated on the disc.  This sets up an EMF or static electric field in the disc with a force in one direction.  Since the charges aren't moving in the disc do to no return path, there is no magnetic field acting on the electric field of the magnet.

An external circuit provides a return path for those separated charges to move.  As soon as those charges start to move through the disc, the magnetic field created by those moving charges have a force on the magnet's electric field that is against the rotation of the magnet.  Increasing the amount of current moving through the disc will increase the strength of the magnetic field of the current providing more opposition to the electric field of the magnet, which increases the counter torque.

An induced magnetic field is always in opposition to the magnetic field that induced it, due to the magnetic fields acting on each other's electric fields or moving charges. 

GB

A magnetic field does move with a magnet, it just doesn't appear to rotate when the field is not changing.  Rotate a flat magnet on it's side and the field above it will change.

As for the magnet rotating when current is moving radially across the conductive disc, will it rotate if it is non-conductive?

Will the disc rotate with no brushes attached?

Doesn't the electric field from the center of the disc to the periphery polarize the disc radially?




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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2009, 01:03:42 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2009, 01:27:35 PM »
A magnetic field does move with a magnet, it just doesn't appear to rotate when the field is not changing.  Rotate a flat magnet on it's side and the field above it will change.

As for the magnet rotating when current is moving radially across the conductive disc, will it rotate if it is non-conductive?

Will the disc rotate with no brushes attached?

Doesn't the electric field from the center of the disc to the periphery polarize the disc radially?

The magnetic field does not rotate with a magnet when it's rotating on it's magnetic axis.  Rotate a magnet on it's axis and no voltage is detected on a stationary disc because the magnetic field is stationary..  A disc rotating with a magnet will have a voltage because the magnetic field is stationary and the disc is moving through the field.

The magnet will rotate when it's non-conductive when current is flowing radially through a disc.

A disc won't rotate without brushes.  There needs to be relative motion between the disc and external circuit.

The electric field in the disc will have a polarity between the axis and rim.  The axis can be negative or positive depending on the direction of rotation through the magnetic field and what poles it is rotating through.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »
The magnetic field does not rotate with a magnet when it's rotating on it's magnetic axis.  Rotate a magnet on it's axis and no voltage is detected on a stationary disc because the magnetic field is stationary..  A disc rotating with a magnet will have a voltage because the magnetic field is stationary and the disc is moving through the field.

The magnet will rotate when it's non-conductive when current is flowing radially through a disc.

A disc won't rotate without brushes.  There needs to be relative motion between the disc and external circuit.

The electric field in the disc will have a polarity between the axis and rim.  The axis can be negative or positive depending on the direction of rotation through the magnetic field and what poles it is rotating through.

What I'm getting at is that there has to be a transfer of momentum.



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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2009, 09:26:10 PM »
What I'm getting at is that there has to be a transfer of momentum.

Of course, but we don't want the transfer to be against the rotation of the system.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2009, 01:50:43 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2009, 05:49:51 AM »
@grumpy:

I think we need to look at the possibility of extracting the current between the rim of one half of the disc and the rim of the other half of the disc with a magnet that is radially magnetized instead of from axis to rim with a magnet magnetized axially in the conventional setups.

It wouldn't be much different than one of broli's design.  We would use a radially magnetized magnet where one half is north and the other half is south.  The radial magnet would remain stationary, the disc would rotate, and our external circuit would be stationary.  We would extract the current between the rims of both halves instead of between the axis and rim.

This would allow us to have the current flowing through the whole diameter of the disc in one direction and our external circuit would provide the return path to the other side.  There would be a counter torque on one half of the magnet and a forward torque on the other half, thus canceling each other out.  The voltage should be doubled with no counter torque.

Below is an illustration.  There is a possible problem with this design and it may not work as is.  The drawing is only showing the concept to help in the visualization.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2009, 01:48:38 PM »
how would you create the interaction without moving all of that mass?

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2009, 01:48:38 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2009, 12:28:22 AM »
how would you create the interaction without moving all of that mass?

LOL.  I have no idea what you're talking about.  All that is required to have a voltage for current to flow is relative motion between the disc and external circuit and for the disc  or external circuit to move through the stationary magnetic field.

The interaction with that design is no different than the interaction with a conventional HPG.  Below are the conditions for a HPG to create a voltage for current to flow.

1)  Stationary magnet, rotating disc, stationary external circuit produces a voltage and current.

2)  Stationary magnet, stationary disc, rotating external circuit produces a voltage and current.

3)  Rotating magnet, rotating disc, stationary external circuit produces a voltage and current.

4)  Rotating magnet, stationary disc, rotating external circuit produces a voltage and current.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2009, 01:52:43 AM »
Create a force perpendicular to the magnetic field and you cause particle drift perpendicular to the force and the mag field.

"Motionless homopolar generator"  ...bada bing!

Come on, GB, take a good hard look at it.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2009, 06:21:01 AM »
Create a force perpendicular to the magnetic field and you cause particle drift perpendicular to the force and the mag field.

"Motionless homopolar generator"  ...bada bing!

Come on, GB, take a good hard look at it.

A "Motionless homopolar generator" would be great.  I will consider giving this more thought.  I'm under the impression you feel the kick coil at 7.8hz perpendicular to the magnetic field can be used as a force to cause the electrons to move in a conductive disc, as it does with the dancing magnets in the video.  I will say this is an interesting idea. 

Please note, the two dancing magnets are moving radially and not in a circular motion that occurs when the free electrons drift in a uniform magnetic field randomly.  This is due to other forces and fields being present.  Since the force is constant and perpendicular to the magnetic field, then the dancing magnets move radially.  This would suggest the current would flow radially in a conductive disc with this setup.

The interesting thing in the video, is how the dancing magnets move back and forth.  This should allow us to create a return path and have a voltage potential between the axis and rim, without having relative motion between the disc and external circuit.

Excellent Idea,

GB

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2009, 01:06:20 PM »
replace the rotating disc with a rotating force field

Have you ever seen Eric Dollard's video where he demonstrates a Tesla Coil transmitter and receiver, lighting bulbs with radiant electricity, and shows that a strip of copper is "attracted" to the bulb lit by the RE?

Now, you probably can't just place a ring of RE-lit bulbs inside a toroidal coil and get the goods.  The "force" will be in all directions and according to the "guiding center" link above, the "force" has to be in one direction.  So, it may work if you pulsed your RE bulbs sequentially inside a toroid, or with a coil inside or ouside the ring of bulbs.  Don't forget the static magnetic field perpendicular to the coil.   

Kind of sheds a new "light" (pun intended) on those UFO's with rotating lights...

Edit:
There may be a few other ways to impart the necessary force to the conductor:

The Resonant Gravity Field Coil paper that has been floating around since the BBS days mentions altered gravity in the center of the coils.  This device also has a static magnetic field around it - a solenoid coil - which is modulated to vary the field in the center of the coils.  Gravity is an acceptable "independent force" mentioned in Method "C" for causing particle drift.


 

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