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Author Topic: Faraday's Paradox experiment  (Read 168511 times)

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »
Being able to draw would save me from having to write a book in each of my replies.  I'm really surprise you take the time to read my long posts.  I also repeat myself too much, which is redundant and not good for the reader.  I will take your advice and work on these issues.


Thanks,

GB

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2009, 12:16:19 PM »
Ok, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the forces on the wire and the counter torque on the magnet as shown in your diagram.

In the conventional setups, the magnetic field of the magnet and disc are axial while the electric fields and EMF is radial.  When we extract the current between the axis and rim, then the EMF in the external circuit will be radial regardless to how the wire is running or the angle of those connections.  No problem here.

In your design, the magnetic field of the magnet and disc is axial and the electric field is radial, but the current is being extracted between the rims which makes the EMF of the external circuit axial (the axis of the left disc is negative and the axis of the right disc is positive).

The forces on the wire and the counter torques shown on the magnet in your diagram is treating each individual magnet as a separate entity with an EMF that is radial.  They are no longer two entities with an EMF that is radial, they are now a single entity with an EMF which is axial between the axis/axis or rim/rim.  I am sure you will disagree with this, but the outside circuit will have an EMF that is axial regardless of the angle of those connections or how the wire is running and this is the reason why both magnets or both sides should be treated as a single entity with an EMF that is axial in this respect.

The arrows showing the forces on the wire and the counter torque on the magnet should be pointing horizontally and not vertically.  They should be running parallel with the green arrows.  The forces will either want to push the magnets apart or pull the magnets together.  These forces are now negligible to the rotation of the system.

If you need a diagram, I am sure I can modify your image.  If my thinking isn't correct, then please help.


GB
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:55:34 PM by gravityblock »

Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 12:45:29 AM »
GB, if you would ask me what I would need to create a true back emfless motor I would say that I need a wire piece that has a permanent field around it as if a current is flowing threw it, I call it an open circuit current. Look at the below illustration. If something like that can be created even momentarily we would have a generator with constant torque regardless of rotational speed.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 12:45:29 AM »
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Offline Hugo Chavez

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2009, 01:06:47 PM »
GB, could you please please please at least draw this out on paper and upload it.  I've played around with this quite a bit in the past and your descriptions are nearly impossible to visualize.  I'd rather look at the worst drawing than try to figure out your posts again.  No offense intended.  a drawing will help out this process bigtime.  thank you.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2009, 05:34:55 PM »
Below is an illustration showing a disc and a magnet with an inverted field.  The magnet isn't drawn, but the disc should show how the magnet would be drawn.  The wires will rotate with the disc.  The wire at the top of the disc will make a connection to the axle of another disc/magnet with no inverted field which will remain stationary.  The wire at the bottom of the disc will make a connection to the rim of the other disc.

As current is extracted between the axis/rim of the stationary disc, the torque created by the wires will be canceled and the generator will maintain it's rotational speed.  Maybe you can play around with this idea and find the right polarities or configuration to make it work.  If both sides had an inverted field of opposite polarity, then it may provide a forward torque.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 07:09:07 PM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2009, 05:34:55 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2009, 05:46:33 PM »
GB, could you please please please at least draw this out on paper and upload it.  I've played around with this quite a bit in the past and your descriptions are nearly impossible to visualize.  I'd rather look at the worst drawing than try to figure out your posts again.  No offense intended.  a drawing will help out this process bigtime.  thank you.

It's not any different than broli's illustration.  Broli's illustration has a different perspective to help in the visualation, but the result is the same.  The result is the voltage is increased, but the counter torque is increased as well.

Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2009, 07:47:59 PM »
GB the inverted field idea might seem good at first but trust me it will not generate a voltage. I have been down that road with this thread...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7391.0

The reason why is partially due the fact there's no relative movement between magnet and conductor AND the fact that no matter what you do as long as you use a closed loop circuit you will always face the same problem namely what you gain at some point your lose at another. This can be because of the kirchhoff rule for current, what arrives at a point must leave from that point. This is why I posted the last illustration, if we can break that rule even for a fraction of a second we can have a wire piece that will momentarily have a magnetic field around it without using a disc or return wire. So instead we have to really think out of the box with this one. How can an open circuit wire piece have a magnetic field around it? How about electrical induction (aka polarization)?

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2009, 07:47:59 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2009, 08:30:53 PM »
The design in the other thread you mentioned only has a rotating frame.  You need both a rotating and stationary frame for a voltage.  A rotating frame can provide an EMF on the disc, but relative motion such as a stationary circuit is required for a voltage potential that can be brought out.

What is needed to create an EMF?  Relative motion between the disc and magnetic field.  This can happen when the disc and magnet rotate together since the magnetic field is stationary.  The rotating disc doesn't see the rotating EMF created on the disc, since they're rotating together, so no voltage is able to be brought out in the rotating frame.

What is needed to have voltage for current to flow?  Relative motion between a rotating disc with an EMF and a stationary disc.  The rotating disc will see an EMF in the stationary frame, and the stationary frame will see an EMF in the rotating frame and voltage is able to be brought out of the system. My illustration meets both of these requirements.

The stationary magnet isn't there to create an EMF, it is there to provide the torque.  The rotating disc creates an EMF in the stationary disc due to relative motion between the discs with an opposite polarity.  The current running through the stationary disc will create a torque on the stationary magnet, which will either provide a forward torque or counter torque depending on the polarity of the stationary magnet.   The inverted field doesn't need to be in the rotating frame and could always be part of the stationary frame.  It may not even be required.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:44:54 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2009, 04:26:32 AM »
I'll simplify my illustration without the inverted field.

Rotating disc and magnet with a stationary external circuit.  Do you agree there will be a voltage with that setup?  I hope so, cause it's a basic HPG. The external circuit will be a stationary disc or stationary wire piece which connects to the rotating disc at the axis with a slip ring and a brush at the rim.

As current flows through the stationary disc from axis to the rim, it will create a torque on the stationary magnet.  The stationary magnet will then provide a forward torque or counter torque according to the polarity of the stationary magnet.

Do you agree if current is running through the stationary disc, the stationary magnet will rotate if it's allowed to?  Do you agree the direction the stationary magnet will rotate depends on the direction the current is running through the disc?  Do you agree by reversing the poles on the stationary magnet, it will rotate in the opposite direction if allowed to?  Because the stationary magnet isn't allowed to rotate, it will provide a torque on the wires which is either in the direction of rotation, or against the direction of rotation depending on which pole of the stationary magnet is facing the disc.

The stationary magnet and rotating magnet will need to be separated with enough distance so they don't influence each other.

If you don't agree with any of those questions, then it won't work.  The stationary magnet and stationary disc will act as a motor for the generator or rotating disc/magnet.  I know, it sounds crazy..... a motor that doesn't rotate, but it's purpose is to provide the torque for the generator and in this respect, it can be viewed as a motor because it's giving power to the generator.  If the stationary magnet has a stronger magnetic field than the rotating magnet on the generator, then we can extract more current than the input requirements to run the generator. 

The stationary disc can be viewed as your "open circuit" wire peace with a continuous current running through it with a magnetic field.  It just has return path to the generator and an arrival path from the generator.  You said to think outside of the box, and I have.

I give you a possible solution and I hope you at least give it some thought.  My words aren't understood and my drawings aren't understood.   :(

What am I overlooking?

GB
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 05:47:42 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2009, 04:26:32 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2009, 06:41:34 AM »
I modified boli's image showing the forces on the wire and magnets with a forward torque.  I reversed the poles on the left magnet.  I added brushes to the left axis.  I corrected the arrows showing the forces.  Left disc should be viewed as a stationary circuit.  Left magnet should be viewed as providing the forward torque due to current running through the left disc (this is the reason for the pole reversal on the left magnet).  Left magnet does not induce an EMF or Voltage potential on the left disc since both are stationary.  It's role is to provide the torque.  Stationary magnet should increase the resistance in the system, which should increase the voltage potential.

The charges are separated on the right disc due to rotating through a magnetic field with an EMF pointing in one direction.  Stationary left disc provides relative motion to the rotating frame and is induced with an EMF pointing in the opposite direction as the rotating frame.  A voltage potential is created on the left disc which can be extracted between the rim and axis.

I can't simplify this anymore.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 07:26:03 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2009, 03:51:55 PM »
Here is a simple test.  Rotate the magnet/disc CW while the external circuit is stationary (the system is a generator).  Take note of the polarity of the disc which will be opposite in direction to our volt meter reading.  So, if our volt meter (our external circuit) says it's running from the rim to axis, then the current is running from the axis to rim in the disc.  We'll say it is pointing from the center to the outward edges in the disc.  Now, with the magnet, disc, and external circuit stationary, run current through the disc where it runs from the axis to rim and take note of the rotation of the magnet/disc (the system is now a motor).  The rotation will be CCW.  This is the counter torque in the HPG.  In order to eliminate the counter torque in the HPG, we must keep it from acting as a motor that opposes the generator or have it act as a motor that is with the generator to provide a forward torque.

Remove the left magnet in the modified illustration and you will see it is a very basic HPG.  The left magnet will not act as a shield.  If it did, then the homopolar motor would not work when current is running through the disc.  Instead of using the left magnet/disc as a motor that is against the rotation of the generator, we use the correct pole of the left magnet according to the direction the current is moving through the left disc to have it behave as a motor that is with the rotation of the generator.

In a HPG, a stationary magnetic field can not induce an EMF in the stationary external circuit.  There is no relative motion between them.  In the modified image, the external circuit is induced with an EMF from the right disc due to relative motion between them. 

If the magnetic field did induce an EMF in both the disc and external circuit, due to them rotating together, then both will have an EMF in the same direction, thus no voltage can be brought out of the system in the rotating frame.

The voltage and emf remains the same throughout any two connection points, on average.  When a stationary frame is connected to the rotating frame, the separated charges now move to the two connection points of the stationary frame.  The separated charges in the stationary frame will now see an EMF in the rotating frame.  Likewise, the charges in the rotating frame will see an EMF in the stationary frame.  This induces an opposite EMF in the stationary frame and creates a voltage potential between the 2 connection points which is equal to the EMF.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:50:05 PM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2009, 03:51:55 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2009, 07:08:49 PM »
Sometimes you type too much to read  ;D . So I'll just make this comment and you can make form a conclusion.

I don't know why you assume a voltage is produced in the right setup. Both the disc and the outgoing wire will produce a voltage if they are both rotated in the magnetic field. See the below diagram.

I call this the escape attempt. From the knowledge I have so far no matter how you try to escape from the magnetic field, you will always fail and end up losing what you gained. Unless an invention can shield and contain a wire's magnetic field OR like mentioned before you can allow a permanent magnetic field around a wire without having to close a current loop, this is kind of like shielding in a way. Without that I think any conventional attempt is hopeless. I say this out of experience.


Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2009, 07:51:12 PM »
I don't know why you assume a voltage is produced in the right setup. Both the disc and the outgoing wire will produce a voltage if they are both rotated in the magnetic field. See the below diagram.

The outgoing wire in the diagram is just part of the rotating disc so it will have the same EMF induced by the magnetic field.  It is not part of the stationary external circuit.  The stationary external circuit is the left disc which provides relative motion between it and the rotating wire and disc to create a voltage.  How can the stationary magnetic field on the right disc induce an EMF or voltage on a stationary disc?  How can the magnetic field induce a different polarity on the disc and stationary circuit?  The rotating frame and stationary frame has to be looked at as being separate.  The rotating frame may have a magnetic field, while a stationary frame sees an electric field in the rotating frame and vice versa.  You have to look at each frame individually, then compare the two frames.

It does not produce a voltage.  It produces an EMF.  When the wires of the rotating frame are connected to a stationary frame such as a disc or wire piece, the separated charges or EMF moves to the stationary frame from the rotating frame.  Now there is an EMF in the stationary frame.   The stationary frame see's the EMF on the rotating frame pointing in one direction.  The rotating frame see's the EMF on the stationary frame pointing in the other direction.   This forms a closed loop and creates a voltage between the two frames, which is between the axis and rim.  The charges in each frame will move in opposite directions.  On the right side (axis to rim), left side (rim to axis).

It takes two EMF's pointing in the opposite direction to each other in order to have a voltage.  When we test the polarity of the disc with a volt meter, our volt meter acts as an external circuit.  Without the volt meter or external circuit, there is only an EMF on the disc with no voltage potential.  With a volt meter, the meter acts as the stationary circuit providing relative motion between the rotating and stationary frame to close the loop and an EMF between the two connections will be read.  The polarity the volt meter reads, will be opposite to the polarity in the disc.  The EMF our volt meter reads is always said to be the voltage potential but in reality it creates a return path and EMF opposite in direction to the rotating frame to be read.  What the meter is reading, is not in the same frame as what is being read.   LOL
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 10:55:36 PM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2009, 11:08:26 PM »
@broli:

Shielding the magnetic field does not work and I know why.  It is because the voltage remains the same between the two connection points.  If you shield everything between the two connection points, then you won't have any voltage.  If shielding is done properly, then you can divert the return path of the magnetic field.

In the modified illustration, it is both a motor and a generator that are working together.  In the conventional HPG's, the magnetic field from the current flowing radially through the disc causes the magnet to spin against the rotation of the generator.  The motor and generator are united together.  All I have done is separated the motor from the generator by reversing the pole on the stationary magnet so it provides a torque with the generator.  This can not be done using one magnet and one disc.  You need 2 magnets and 2 discs.  One set is for the motor and the other set is for the generator.  Each side separates the motor from the generator like a firewall so they can work together instead of against each other.  Without a firewall between the motor and generator, then all attempts will fail.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 12:36:11 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2009, 02:31:40 AM »
The electric field of the magnet does rotate with the magnet.  The magnetic field of the current running through the disc acts on the electric field of the magnet which causes the magnet to rotate according to the direction the electric field is pointing in the magnet and according to the direction the current is moving in the disc.

We can't shield the magnetic field of the current running through the disc, but we can change which direction the electric field is pointing in the stationary magnet by reversing the poles to match the direction of rotation in the system.  Since we reversed the poles on the magnet, this will cause the magnetic field of the magnet to act against the flow of the moving charges on the disc and wire.  This creates resistance in the system, which will increase the voltage and decrease the flow of current and that is not a bad thing because we need the voltage.

We converted the counter torque to a forward torque or at least eliminated the counter torque, we raised the voltage, and decreased the current.  I can live that.


GB

 

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