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Author Topic: Faraday's Paradox experiment  (Read 172944 times)

Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2009, 04:07:40 PM »
Both magnets are hooked to the same axle and rotate in the same direction right? I don't see the issue with the diagram.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2009, 04:07:40 PM »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2009, 05:27:44 PM »
Both magnets are hooked to the same axle and rotate in the same direction right? I don't see the issue with the diagram.

Then why does each disc create a voltage potential that is opposite in direction or polarity in regards to the center and outward edges if they are on the same axle and rotating in the same direction through like poles?  I do see an issue with the diagram from my perspective because the discs are moving through the stationary magnetic fields in opposite directions even though they are hooked to the same axle and rotate in the same direction.  Can't you see this?

Polarity of the left disc is from the axis to rim.  Polarity of the right disc is from rim to the axis.  Both hooked to the same axis.  Both rotating in the same direction.  Both rotating through like poles.  Yet, the polarity is opposite on each disc in regards to the center and outward edges.

Please read my previous post that I was editing prior to you posting.  Reply #29

GB

Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2009, 05:34:50 PM »
Gb I don't know what you use to determine polarity direction but in this case you can use the Lorentz force to find it. Point your thumb in direction of rotation and your 4 fingers in the direction of magnetic field, your palm now will indicate the direction of the EMF. I use another method but both give the same result.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2009, 05:34:50 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2009, 05:45:26 PM »
Gb I don't know what you use to determine polarity direction but in this case you can use the Lorentz force to find it. Point your thumb in direction of rotation and your 4 fingers in the direction of magnetic field, your palm now will indicate the direction of the EMF. I use another method but both give the same result.

If you don't know the proper direction of rotation through the magnetic field, then no method will work.  You're using the rotation of the axle to determine the rotation of both discs through the stationary magnetic fields.  This is not right.

In your diagram, one disc is on the right side of the magnet and the other disc is on the left side of the magnet.  The disc on the left side is looking at the magnet's face from the east.  The disc on the right side is looking at the magnet from the west.  They are looking at the magnet's face from opposite directions, thus they will be moving through the magnetic field in opposite directions since the magnetic fields are stationary and is not rotating with the axis.  This is why you can't use the axle's direction of rotation to determine the direction the discs will be moving relative to the stationary magnetic fields.

If the disc on the left side, was on the left side of the magnet, then both discs would be moving through the magnetic fields in the same direction.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 06:30:44 PM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2009, 06:58:54 PM »
If you're attached to the disc on the left side and looking at the magnetic field or the magnet's face, you will notice you are moving CW through the magnetic field.

If you're attached to the disc on the right side and looking at the magnetic field or magnet's face, you will notice you are moving CCW through the magnetic field.

Even though both discs are rotating in the same direction as the axle, each disc will be rotating through the magnetic fields in opposite directions.

The EMF isn't determined by the rotation of the axis.  The EMF is determined by the direction the disc is moving through the magnetic field.  Moving through the field CW will produce an opposite polarity than a disc moving through the field CCW.

This is clear as day.

This is elementary stuff which is beyond everyones comprehension.  I will no longer make another post.  God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world.  I quit.

Good luck in your quest for OU.  You won't find it, cause your eyes are not open.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:28:10 PM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2009, 06:58:54 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
No need to be upset, if I'm wrong I want to be enlightened. So you are saying that the polarity reverses if the disc is put on the other side? I don't see why that would happen. If you tell me your method to determine polarity direction then we might work out the misunderstanding. Btw we can live chat too.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2009, 09:11:40 PM »
No need to be upset, if I'm wrong I want to be enlightened. So you are saying that the polarity reverses if the disc is put on the other side? I don't see why that would happen. If you tell me your method to determine polarity direction then we might work out the misunderstanding. Btw we can live chat too.

Thanks for having an open mind.

If you have a disc on each side of a magnet, the polarity of the discs will be the same in respect to the center and outer edges.  They will be rotating through the magnetic fields in opposite directions which causes them to have an opposite polarity in this sense, but they are also rotating through opposite poles, which will reverse the polarity again.  In the end, each disc will have the same polarity in respect to the center / outer edges.


If we had a magnet that had the same poles on each side, a monopole magnet, with a disc on each side, then the discs are rotating through the magnetic fields in opposite directions which causes them to have an opposite polarity in respect to the center / outer edges of the disc.  Since they are moving through like poles, then the polarity does not change again.  In the end, each disc has an opposite polarity.

There are no monopole magnets and I used that for illustration purposes.....but using two separate magnets that are separated by distance with like poles facing outwards will have the same affect.

We both know changing the direction the axle is rotating will change the polarity of the disc.  Lumen showed this in his experiment.  Yucca tested the polarities of each side of his conductive magnet with the axle rotating in the same direction, and the polarities were the same on each side.  Moving through opposite poles and moving in opposite directions relative to the magnetic fields will keep the polarities the same.

It will be easy to test this.  Rotate a conductive magnet CW and take note of the polarity on the right side of the magnet.  Flip the magnetic poles around, rotate the conductive magnet CW and take note of the polarity on the right side of the magnet.  The polarities will be opposite when they rotate in the same direction through opposite poles.  Do the same tests above, except rotate the conductive magnet CCW.  You will see how the polarities change in regards to which direction the disc is moving through the magnetic field, and which pole it is moving through.

Thanks again,

GB

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2009, 09:11:40 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2009, 09:22:00 PM »
Thanks for having an open mind.

If you have a disc on each side of a magnet, the polarity of the discs will be the same in respect to the center and outer edges.  They will be rotating through the magnetic fields in opposite directions which causes them to have an opposite polarity in this sense, but they are also rotating through opposite poles, which will reverse the polarity again.  In the end, each disc will have the same polarity in respect to the center / outer edges.


If we had a magnet that had the same poles on each side, a monopole magnet, with a disc on each side, then the discs are rotating through the magnetic fields in opposite directions which causes them to have an opposite polarity in respect to the center / outer edges of the disc.  Since they are moving through like poles, then the polarity does not change again.  In the end, each disc has an opposite polarity.

There are no monopole magnets and I used that for illustration purposes.....but using two separate magnets that are separated by distance with like poles facing outwards will have the same affect.

We both know changing the direction the axle is rotating will change the polarity of the disc.  Lumen showed this in his experiment.  Yucca tested the polarities of each side of his conductive magnet with the axle rotating in the same direction, and the polarities were the same on each side.  Moving through opposite poles and moving in opposite directions relative to the magnetic fields will keep the polarities the same.

It will be easy to test this.  Rotate a conductive magnet CW and take note of the polarity on the right side of the magnet.  Flip the magnetic poles around, rotate the conductive magnet CW and take note of the polarity on the right side of the magnet.  The polarities will be opposite when they rotate in the same direction through opposite poles.  Do the same tests above, except rotate the conductive magnet CCW.  You will see how the polarities change in regards to which direction the disc is moving through the magnetic field, and which pole it is moving through.

Thanks again,

GB

Yes I agree with all of that. The only thing I'm pointing out is the forces on the stationary wire and not so stationary magnet. I tried many designs to try and shield this outside circuit but to no avail. It's the outside circuit that causes the counter torque on the moving magnet. I looked back to an old design I posted which may hold potential with some changes. Also a circular rail gun design that might have no back emf or torque.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2009, 09:36:23 PM »
I think your diagram is not correct because you are automatically assuming both discs are moving through the magnetic fields in the same direction as the axle.

Once you realize each disc is moving through the magnetic fields in opposite directions because they are both facing the magnet's face or magnetic fields in opposite directions, then you will understand how the polarities are different on each disc with the same direction as the axle.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2009, 09:36:23 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2009, 10:14:56 PM »
I think your diagram is not correct because you are automatically assuming both discs are moving through the magnetic fields in the same direction as the axle.

Once you realize each disc is moving through the magnetic fields in opposite directions because they are both facing the magnet's face or magnetic fields in opposite directions, then you will understand how the polarities are different on each disc with the same direction as the axle.

GB I'm preparing humble pie just in case either of us is wrong  ;D . Doodle on the diagram to show what's wrong, if I got something wrong and still haven't realized it by now you deserve to shoot me.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2009, 11:16:44 PM »
It's the outside circuit that causes the counter torque on the moving magnet.

I agree with this.  We need to ask ourselves why.

Some will say it's because the disc is pushing off the external circuit or something along that line.  I think this is only partially correct.  The electrons leaving the disc will push off the disc and the electrons leaving the external circuit will push off the external circuit.  They should cancel each other out, but they don't due to the electrons pushing off the disc with less force at the rim than the electrons pushing off the external circuit at the axis.

The closer you get to the end of a toilet paper roll, the faster it will go (This I do know...LOL).  The connection of the external circuit at the axis will see the axis of the disc rotating faster than the connection of the external circuit at the rim will see the rim of the disc rotating.  This means the electrons at the axis are pushing off the external circuit with a greater force than the electrons are pushing off the disc at the rim.  This creates an unequal force.  The difference in this unequal force creates a counter torque against the rotation of the disc.

When we extract the current on each side of the axis, there is no unequal force, since the electrons will be pushing off the disc and pushing off the external circuit at the same speed or with the same force on both sides of the axis.  These forces are canceled.  This does not create a counter torque in the system.

This is a theory.  It may not be correct and my brain is hurting and needs to rest before I throw out more dumb ideas.  LOL
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 02:13:13 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2009, 11:16:44 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2009, 02:21:44 AM »
I agree with this.  We need to ask ourselves why.

Some will say it's because the disc is pushing off the external circuit or something along that line.  I think this is only partially correct.  The electrons leaving the disc will push off the disc and the electrons leaving the external circuit will push off the external circuit.  They should cancel each other out, but they don't due to the electrons pushing off the disc with less force at the rim than the electrons pushing off the external circuit at the axis.

The closer you get to the end of a toilet paper roll, the faster it will go (This I do know...LOL).  The connection of the external circuit at the axis will see the axis of the disc rotating faster than the connection of the external circuit at the rim will see the rim of the disc rotating.  This means the electrons at the axis are pushing off the external circuit with a greater force than the electrons are pushing off the disc at the rim.  This creates an unequal force.  The difference in this unequal force creates a counter torque against the rotation of the disc.

When we extract the current on each side of the axis, there is no unequal force, since the electrons will be pushing off the disc and pushing off the external circuit at the same speed or with the same force on both sides of the axis.  These forces are canceled.  This does not create a counter torque in the system.

This is a theory.  It may not be correct and my brain is hurting and needs to rest before I throw out more dumb ideas.  LOL

That's interesting I never thought about the forces between the disc and stationary circuit. Since the disc essentially becomes a magnet when you spin it. But I think this would be negligible compared to the forces between the magnet and outside circuit.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2009, 04:29:14 AM »
What is the difference between the magnet and the disc?  They are both rotating together in the same direction against the external circuit.  The magnetic field induced on the disc will be stationary, the magnet's field is stationary, and the external circuit is stationary.  How could there be forces between them when they are all stationary.

The only counter torque I can see will be the electrons leaving the disc with less force than leaving the external circuit with a small amount of friction between the disc and external circuit.

We've all thought the magnetic field is stationary even though the magnet is rotating.  I believe this is true when current isn't being taken off the disc.  It is a possibility that the magnetic field of the disc and magnet does rotate at a rate that is proportional to the current being taken off the disc.  It is also possible the magnetic field of the disc may rotate proportional to the current drawn while the magnetic field of the magnet remains stationary.  Then the counter torque may be the secondary effects of the field(s) rotating due to taking current off the disc.  This would be my best guess, but I'm not totally convinced yet.


GB
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 05:17:37 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2009, 02:36:03 PM »
I know you're familiar with this video about the inverted magnetic field, http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/motor.wmv .  This video is filled with valuable information.  Here are my thoughts on it, without going into a discussion on the inverted field.

When the disc and magnet are held stationary and the external circuit is allowed to rotate, then the needle will spin CW when current is flowing through the disc and outside circuit.  The external circuit must be pushing off the magnetic field of the magnet.

When the disc and magnet are allowed to rotate, then the disc/magnet will rotate CCW dragging the external circuit CCW when it otherwise wanted to rotate CW when the magnet and disc were held stationary.  I assume the external circuit is pushing off the magnetic field of the magnet CW, and the disc is pushing off the magnet's field CCW.  The external circuit pushing off the disc with a force that is less than the disc and the disc moves against the external circuit causing a counter torque.  So, the disc and external circuit are pushing off the stationary magnetic field in opposite directions.  This is our counter torque that is proportional to the current running through the system.

So, the counter torque is between the disc and external circuit.  The disc wants to rotate in one direction and the outside circuit wants to rotate in the opposite direction.

In the system where we extract the current from each side of the axis, we'll say the whole system is rotating CW on it's axle.  The current is running in opposite directions on each side.  The connection of the external circuit on the left side must be opposing the left disc according to the direction of the current on that side.  We'll say the external circuit on the left side will oppose the left disc CCW against the rotation of the system causing a counter torque.  Likewise, the connection of the external circuit on the right side must be opposing the right disc according to the direction of the current on that side.  Since the direction of current on the right disc is opposite to the left disc, then the connection of the external circuit on the right side must oppose the right disc CW which is with the direction of the axle giving it a forward torque.  The counter torque and forward torque will cancel each other in this system.

It isn't possible to avoid the counter torque with a "N/S" configuration.  The counter torque can only be canceled with a "N/N" or "S/S" configuration utilizing both sides.  It just happens that each side is naturally connected in series with each other increasing the power output to the 4th power while the input requirements increase to the square thereof providing OU.  There is a simple way to increase the power output of this system to input power even further which I have yet to disclose.


GB

Offline broli

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2009, 02:42:32 PM »
GB get to know paint or photoshop. That you can draw your way through in conversations like these. We can talk all day about it without having a clear visual representation of the issue. So I advice you when you can to always draw what you mean. Our brains like pictures more than words.

 

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