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Author Topic: Faraday's Paradox experiment  (Read 168381 times)

Offline scotty1

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Faraday's Paradox experiment
« on: September 28, 2008, 01:20:24 AM »
Hi all.
Here is my test on Faraday's Paradox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUY3snoWI8
It clearly shows that the field does not rotate with the ring magnet.
Cheers
Scotty

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Faraday's Paradox experiment
« on: September 28, 2008, 01:20:24 AM »

Offline X00013

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 01:31:15 AM »
Nice vid, and nice sweater, but u screwed up on demonstrating the attraction of the magnets by placing a steel plate between the magnets. The magnets could have been opposing, they would still stick to the steel. None the less, I agree with your results. Just thought i would compliment you in an ass backwords way.

Offline scotty1

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 01:44:57 AM »
Hi again...just to clarify...
The spacer i used is a piece of wood.....ebony...I use it for guitar making... ;D
You think you make everything clear, but something always skews things...
I'll make a mention of the wooden spacer on you tube as well.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Scotty.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 01:44:57 AM »
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Offline X00013

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 03:40:02 AM »
Scotty1, rok on, we all do.

Offline BEP

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 04:45:09 AM »
Hi all.
Here is my test on Faraday's Paradox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUY3snoWI8
It clearly shows that the field does not rotate with the ring magnet.
Cheers
Scotty

Ah!

Another convert! Very good.

Yes, You cannot rotate a magnetic field - or flux. Once you understand this there is no paradox.
Ever tried spinning light with a simple lense? That won't work either. I suspect for the same reasons you can't rotate a magnetic field with a magnet.

Don't stop there. There are related actions and results that don't make sense.

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 04:45:09 AM »
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Offline scotty1

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2008, 08:46:30 AM »
I don't know about convert?
I only believe the truth...and the truth is that the field does not rotate with the magnet matter.
Now I want to know how atomic domains that are aligned to produce the field, stay motionless as the mass rotates......that is impossible.
How can the electrons ect or any atomic domain theory explain how the field does not rotate with the matter?
The Paradox remains as far as i'm concerned.....not for me, but for the scientists who use domain theory.
My experiment clearly shows that the magnet field is SOMETHING ELSE, and that the SOMETHING is concentrated in the magnet and flowing through it....
We are all completely submerged in that SUBSTANCE.
The whole universe is too.

"Every living being is an engine geared to the wheelwork of the universe. Though seemingly affected only by its immediate surrounding, the sphere of external influence extends to infinite distance. There is no constellation or nebula, no sun or planet, in all the depths of limitless space, no passing wanderer of the starry heavens, that does not exercise some control over its destiny—not in the vague and delusive sense of astrology, but in the rigid and positive meaning of physical science.

More than this can be said. There is no thing endowed with life—from man, who is enslaving the elements, to the humblest creature—in all this world that does not sway it in turn. Whenever action is born from force, though it be infinitesimal, the cosmic balance is upset and universal motion result."
Nikola Tesla......
" I was struck by the thought that if there is energy within the substance it can only come from without.  This truth was so manifest to me that I expressed it in the following axiom: "There is no energy in matter except that absorbed from the medium."  Lord Kelvin gave us a picture of a dying universe, of a clockwork wound up and running down, inevitably doomed to come to a full stop in the far, far off future.  It was a gloomy view incompatible with artistic, scientific and mechanical sense.  I asked myself again and again, was there not some force winding up the clock as it runs down?  The axiom I had formulated gave me a clue.  If all energy is supplied to matter from without then this all important function must be performed by the medium.  Yes--but how?"  Nikola Tesla

http://leedskalnin.net/the_cosmic_rays.pdf

The truth will come out in the end.
Scotty


turbo

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 10:42:16 AM »
Hi  :)

I have also rebuild the Faraday disk generator and did many tests with it.

It is because we are working with something we cannot see.
You can however build a device that allows you to hear the lines of flux.
Then as you move the pickup around magnets you will hear it's snapping noise.
Also you can examine electromagnets and listen to the bemf.
Once you hear that sound you will know for sure you heard it somewhere before.
Or was it something else?
It sure sounds the same....

It's nice to put things into the audio or even visible spectrum.
That is like opening a door.
I was also thinking about a chamber with like 1000 hall sensors to create a image of 3D flux but that's a lot of work.

Marco.



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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 10:42:16 AM »
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Offline pese

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2008, 07:16:30 PM »
Das ist sehr normal, dass der 2 Magnet sich nicht drehen wird.
Egal ob die Ringmagnete sich anziehen oder abstossen , denn
es entsteht keine Reibung oder wechselndes Magnetfeld dass eine Kraft übertragen kann.
Nur wenn jede Oberfläche dieses Ringmagneten oder mehrerer Einzelmagneten als Ringe aufgebaut sind, wird sich das Drehfeld
übertragen. Pese
----------
This is very normal that the 2 magnet will not rotate.
Whether the ring magnets to attract or repel, because
there is no friction or alternating magnetic field a force that can transmit.
Only if every surface of this ring magnets or more than single magnet rings are built, will be the spinner transferred.
Pese

turbo

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 03:31:06 PM »
Hi Guy's  :)

Here is a short clip about my solid state Farady disk generator.  :)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item148

Marco.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 03:31:06 PM »
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Offline alan

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2008, 04:27:33 PM »
When electrons move through a magnetic field without flux change, a force will exert on them in the outward direction, creating current.
Faraday's law doesn't predict this, but Lorentz' force law does.

Also, when the electrons travel radially outwards, they do undergo a magnetic flux change.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 11:01:19 PM »
When electrons move through a magnetic field without flux change, a force will exert on them in the outward direction, creating current.
Faraday's law doesn't predict this, but Lorentz' force law does.

Also, when the electrons travel radially outwards, they do undergo a magnetic flux change.

Very well said Alan.

The magnetic field separates the charges in a conductor as it moves through the field, even if the flux isn't changing.  When the charges are separated the electric field will exert a force that is either outwards or inwards, depending on the polarity of the electric field.  A change in the direction of rotation or reversing the poles will change the polarity.  Since the electric field is exerting a force on the separated charges in one direction, the charges aren't able to flow.  The magnetic field is not rotating with the magnet at this point.

Relative motion between the disc and external circuit creates an electric field in the external circuit with an opposite polarity to the disc, thus current can flow.  The external circuit provides the return path.  The electric field on the disc is moving the charges outwards, while the electric field of the external circuit is moving the charges inwards or vice versa, thus current can now flow.  At this point, the magnetic field starts to rotate.  The more current that is being drawn, the faster the magnetic field will spin. This is the reason for the electric field in the disc to be opposite in polarity to the external circuit, since they are moving through the field in opposite directions relative to each other.  This is also the reason for the back torque

When the magnet is stationary, the disc is rotating, and the external circuit is stationary, there is much more back torque in the system than if the magnet and disk rotated together while the external circuit remains stationary.  This is due to the magnetic field spinning as you draw current off the disc.  if the magnet and disc rotate together, most of the back torque can be eliminated from the field rotating.

Yes, the magnetic field doesn't rotate when there is no current being drawn, but it does rotate when current is being drawn.

Once you draw current off the disc, you are changing how the system behaves, and this change is the magnetic field starts to rotate to oppose this change.  For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.  This is a basic law in nature and it applies here as well.



GB
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 12:43:03 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 11:01:19 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2009, 02:27:27 AM »
the mgnetic field doesnt actually "spin". it remains relatively stationary. the disk spins through it.

what happens when current is drawn, is you are generating a change in the magnetic field - along the (curved) radius from the center to the point where the current is being drawn from.
Tesla drew some nice sketches of these lines if you need a visual..

as current is being drawn, this distortion in the field rotates with the disk until it dissipates a small distance after the connection point.
a new distortion generates along the proceeding radii as it approaches the connection.

however, the remaining portion of the field remains "stationary", even while electric current is being drawn.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2009, 06:12:27 AM »
the mgnetic field doesnt actually "spin". it remains relatively stationary. the disk spins through it.

what happens when current is drawn, is you are generating a change in the magnetic field - along the (curved) radius from the center to the point where the current is being drawn from.
Tesla drew some nice sketches of these lines if you need a visual..

as current is being drawn, this distortion in the field rotates with the disk until it dissipates a small distance after the connection point.
a new distortion generates along the proceeding radii as it approaches the connection.

however, the remaining portion of the field remains "stationary", even while electric current is being drawn.

I apologize for the long post and hope it is read.

The magnetic field will remain relatively stationary to itself?  That is nonsense, but I do understand what you are implying and it is not correct if you use another disc as the external circuit that extracts current all the way around the axis and rim while using a separate return path between the discs.  Of course the disc rotates through the field.  The more current that is drawn, the faster the field rotates with the magnet which means the disc is moving through the field at a slower rate and this reduces the electro motive force in the system.  The emf in the system separates the charges.  If the charges aren't separated, then they can't flow. If they're being separated at a slower rate, then this will reduce the voltage and current in the system.

Let's say the disc is cutting through the field at 5,000 rpm.  When current is drawn, then the field starts to rotate, which means the disc is now cutting through the field at a rate less than 5,000 rpm.  Increase the amount of current being drawn at a steady rate, and the field will eventually be rotating at the same rate as the disc.  When they are rotating at the same rate, then the disc is no longer moving through the field.  This happens not only to the disc but to the external circuit also, which causes them to oppose each other.

Why is there more back torque in the system when the disc and magnet don't rotate together as compared to when they do rotate together if the magnetic field remains stationary in each setup?  I say it is because the field does rotate when current is extracted.

When the brushes are 360 degrees around the axis and rim, then the magnetic field will rotate with the magnet without dissipating.  A slip ring would be best for the axis. The external circuit needs not to be a single wire.  It can be another disk.  This will double the voltage in the system and reduce the back torque if it's done properly. Tesla even said having brushes which were symmetrical around the axis and rim will reduce the back torque.  In fact, both the disc and external circuit can be a single wire......but this would not produce a continuous current.

Tesla used a conductive belt around the rims of the discs on separate rotating axles to extract the current from the rim without using brushes.  It can also be done on one axle and using a slip ring on both sides of the axle to extract the current.  No need for brushes or a conductive belt for the rim.

This is where relativity comes into play.  Try to visualize this.  When a magnet is rotating on an axle, which direction is the magnet rotating?  If you say CW, then move to the other side of the magnet and you will see it is moving CCW.  The direction of rotation the disc is moving through the magnetic field will determine if the current runs from the axis to the rim, or from the rim to the axis.  Also the different poles of a magnet will change the polarity of the system.

Now place a disc on each side of the magnet.  The disc on the left side will be moving CW through the field, while the disc on the right side will be moving CCW through the field.  This will reverse the polarities between the discs.  We also have to take into account that a pole reversal will also reverse the polarity.  The disc on the left side will be facing a South pole while the disc on the right side will be facing a North pole.  Now this keeps the polarities the same on both discs, meaning the current is running from the axis to the rim on both discs or vice versa.......and we don't want this.

We want the current to flow from the rim of the left disc to the axle on the left disc.....then from the axle of the left disc to the axle on the right disc using a single conductive wire as the return path to the right axle....then to the rim of the right disc...then back to the rim on the left disc using another single wire that is connected between the rims for current to flow between the discs.  The external wire connecting the axles together is nothing but the return path and provides relative motion between each side for current to flow.  This can be done without any slip rings, but that doesn't do us much good unless we were rotating with the system.  All we do is to place slip rings on each end of the axles to extract current.

How to do this?  There are a few different ways.  One way is to place a magnet and disc on one end of the axis, and another magnet and disc on the other end of the disc.  The discs will be facing outwards and will be facing the same poles of the magnets.  There must be enough distance between the magnets so their magnetic fields don't interfere with each other.

This will completely eliminate the back torque, since there is no relative motion mechanically between the discs or external circuit.  It also eliminates the conductive belt or brushes for the rims.  It also increases the voltage.  The magnetic field in this system may not rotate with the magnet when current is drawn, thus the emf will not drop (this is the only thing I am not sure about, but the rest I am near 100% confident of being correct).  5,000 rpm would be equivalent to 10,000 rpm in a conventional setup.  A 10 inch radius of the discs would be equivalent to a 20 inch radius disc in a conventional setup. 

Replace the pancake coils in the second image being attached with a conductive coating of copper completely covering the two Halbach Arrays, so both sides are electrically connected for current to flow, similar to how a conductive magnet has a nickel coating around it.  The Halbach Arrays must be used in this setup in order to avoid cancellations of the current at the rims.  Also the swivel bearings are slip rings.  The Halbach Arrays gives a natural design that is similar to the circular UFO's.  Also it is possible to do it with an inverted magnetic field, but that is a different setup.

I will work a month for anyone who proves me wrong.  I'm not financially able to do this and I don't have the tools and equipment to test my theory.

I need a sign that says, "Will work for a build" instead of "Will work for food".  LOL

I am serious about this.


GB

« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 07:26:16 AM by gravityblock »

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2009, 08:51:40 AM »
...
When the magnet is stationary, the disc is rotating, and the external circuit is stationary, there is much more back torque in the system than if the magnet and disk rotated together while the external circuit remains stationary.
...

The fact that the magnet is rotating or not rotating is irrelevant. A field is only defined by scalar values in every space points. As the magnet is rotating about its axis of geometric symmetry which is also its axis of magnetic symmetry, its field remains stationary.










Offline gravityblock

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Re: Faraday's Paradox experiment
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2009, 01:47:22 PM »
The fact that the magnet is rotating or not rotating is irrelevant. A field is only defined by scalar values in every space points. As the magnet is rotating about its axis of geometric symmetry which is also its axis of magnetic symmetry, its field remains stationary.

It is relevant.  There is less back torque when the magnet rotates with the disc.  How is that irrelevant?  Rotating the magnet while the disc and external circuit are stationary does not produce a voltage or current because neither is cutting through the field.  Rotating all 3 together, does produce an EMF, but current is not able to be taken off, because there is no EMF for the return path. This suggests that the field doesn't rotate with the magnet when current doesn't flow.  The external circuit is just a part of the disc in this case, meaning the electric fields cancel each other out.

As long as their is relative motion between the disc and external circuit, then it doesn't matter if the field is rotating or stationary (It is irrelevant to have a voltage for current to flow), but that does not mean the field doesn't rotate when current is being taken off (It is now relevant since the voltage will drop).  This being a low voltage system, we can't afford this to happen.
 
The field must rotate when current is being drawn, if not, the voltage wouldn't drop.  The voltage drops since the disc and external circuit are moving through the field at a slower rate because the field is rotating.  This suggests the field is rotating at a speed that is proportional to the current that is flowing through the system.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 08:14:39 PM by gravityblock »

 

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