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Author Topic: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.  (Read 7849 times)

Offline Aveon Blitz

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assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« on: September 27, 2008, 07:10:39 AM »
I am attempting to design an easily manufacturability and installable system that will increase a vehicle's efficiency by at least 30%, 60-100% would be much better.
I would like suggestions on the design, I do plan on the system to be a brute force system, using stainless steel plates, or another plausible material you might suggest. I have been messing around with plate design and configuration but have never really exceeded .5LPM with any of my systems. It seems that many here have made much more progress with this technology than I have. While my goal is 30% I don’t know what that would need in terms of LPM, a suggestion there would be helpful.
I would like to have a system that draws under 20A and does not use pulsing if possible, just to reduce complication. The simpler the system the more economic it would be to produce.
Any suggestions would be helpful and I would be grateful for your input.

The Linnard Griffin system seems very interesting, but would not fit my needs because of the maintenance required. I will be looking in on the progress made on it though.
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Offline professor

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 08:11:09 AM »
Aveon Blitz
If you are satisfied with the Brute Force then for best efficiency I suggest using multiple 6 times  2Vdc cells , chemically isolated from each other and electrically connected in series. I don't know if this setup requires conditioning of your Electrodes whichever type you want to use.This will give you the least heat and best efficiency using 12Vdc.This way you wont need  PWM to lower your Current.
The Drawback its larger and harder to construct and you have to devise a method to collect the gas from all 6 cells as well a method to refill all  of them mind you if they stay cool  there will not be too much evaporation.
Good Luck Someone can confirm or deny what I said go ahead its all yours.
professor

Quote from: Aveon BlitzAveon Blitz on September 27, 2008, 07:10:39 AM
I am attempting to design an easily manufacturability and installable system that will increase a vehicle's efficiency by at least 30%, 60-100% would be much better.
I would like suggestions on the design, I do plan on the system to be a brute force system, using stainless steel plates, or another plausible material you might suggest. I have been messing around with plate design and configuration but have never really exceeded .5LPM with any of my systems. It seems that many here have made much more progress with this technology than I have. While my goal is 30% I don’t know what that would need in terms of LPM, a suggestion there would be helpful.
I would like to have a system that draws under 20A and does not use pulsing if possible, just to reduce complication. The simpler the system the more economic it would be to produce.
Any suggestions would be helpful and I would be grateful for your input.

The Linnard Griffin system seems very interesting, but would not fit my needs because of the maintenance required. I will be looking in on the progress made on it though.
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Offline Aveon Blitz

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2008, 04:47:53 PM »
hm, so you are saying that having cells in the same electrolyte bath is less productive than having them in separate? interesting, i will have to experiment with this. thank you for your imput.
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Offline professor

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2008, 09:34:51 PM »
Hi Aveon Blitz
This is a fact. Let me give you an example: If the 12vdc Automotive battery were all one cavity and chemically connected you would get lots of amps but only 2 .xx Vdc. If you tried to charge it with 12 Volts,as you are applying  that to the Water Cell, you would boil the Battery. It would produce a lot of Hydrogen and oxygen but you would require a lot of amps that is going to waist in the form of heat.
The Watercell depending  what and how much chemicals (KOH) you use in, it charges up and holds its charge like a battery except delivering unusable low current. So it behaves somewhat like a Battery.
professor
 
Quote from: Aveon Blitz on September 27, 2008, 04:47:53 PM
hm, so you are saying that having cells in the same electrolyte bath is less productive than having them in separate? interesting, i will have to experiment with this. thank you for your imput.
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Offline jdcmusicman

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 01:25:26 AM »
If you want an fairly easy build and one that is electrically efficient and
can run well for hrs without any real heat issues ,build a 16 plate 6x6
4n3 configuration drycell..I have one on my car it works well. I get 1 1/2 LPM
on about 22-25 amps....Just get ya stainless steel plates ,pick you up some
1/2 cutting boards from walmart,get some 1/16" neoprene rubber for gasket
materials off ebay,some nuts and bolts and just build it...You have to build a water
reservoir and and a bubbler also ..I built my whole system on my car for under
100 dollars.Its paying off slowly , getting me an extra 5-7 mpg ....
It will take about 4-6 hrs to build ,preparing the plates, cutting gaskets, drilling holes ect..
But from experience its worth it , beats the crap out of any wet cell setup...
I have been there and done that , and will never build another wet cell setup ,
they have way to much heat issues,and are not all that electrically efficient..
Drycell is the way to go in my book..and the other good thing about them is
you can squeeze them in alot tighter spaces if room is an issue ...and they are easily expandable
just add more plates more gaskets longer bolts and good to go ..

Hope this helps ya , have a nice day    ;D
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Offline vonwolf

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 01:57:36 AM »
hi jdcmusicman;
    I have seen dry cell's but no info on how to make them. The do look intresting but I have no idea of there design or how the work?
Do you have a link that could help me? I would appreciate it. Thanks

                     Pete
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Offline Aveon Blitz

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 05:38:48 AM »
To professor:
yes, all electrolyziers are basically horrible batteries and like batteries their behavior is partially explained by the physics of capacitors. unfortunately i don't know enough about batteries to crunch the numbers and come up with a mathematically "perfect" system, so i have come up with many ideas, but don't have the knowledge to test them in a theoretical plane.

to jdcmusicman:
i am not familiar with the dry cell systems, is the electrolyzier drained of water while not in use, or do you just have an isolated chamber where electrolysis is done so you don't have to worry about the electrolyte becoming more concentrated? any literature you could procure would be an interesting read.

i do thank you for your input and hope to have a final design for a cheap, easily manufactured design that virtually anyone could build and get the same results. my main goal is to help the people who really don't want to put the time and effort into making a properly working system and offer an alternative to water4gas.com, you have no idea how much i dislike them, they have the basic principles, but miss greatly key aspects, like hydrogen production levels.

anyway, thank you for your assistance with design concepts of brute force systems.
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2008, 03:33:20 PM »
Quote from: Aveon Blitz on September 27, 2008, 07:10:39 AM
I am attempting to design an easily manufacturability and installable system that will
 increase a vehicle's efficiency by at least 30%, 60-100% would be much better.
I would like suggestions on the design, I do plan on the system to be a brute force system...
You will get better results by avoiding brute force systems - e.g. the Boyce technology:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
but there are several brute force systems in that link for you as well. If you go for
Boyce, join the workingwatercar Yahoo group. In my view, these people are seriously
ahead of the pack.
Paul.
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Offline Aveon Blitz

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2008, 07:34:17 PM »
thank you very much, this literature will help me considerably, as i said, i hope to have an easily reproducible design with in a few months, given I have the capital to build and test different models. thank you for your input.
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Offline jdcmusicman

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2008, 11:14:41 PM »
HI again,

Heres one on youtube  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TKQ8UNEgWwY
also look up EBN on youtube ...Type in drycell on you tube you have many come up
on it .....
Also look up sidyoung, smartscarecrow,hho4gas, lutherp40  all on youtube

Here is the link to my personal Drycell videos :
http://uk.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E88EBA04F43E577D

I have a 16 plate one on my car , and am selling these on ebay for $99.00 ebay user jdcmusicman
I'm not trying to sell ya one ,I am open source all the way, I just started selling these this week ,to get a little extra cash so I can do further research into this hho stuff... I believe this stuff really has potential

The basic design is simple say you have 6x6 plates , you need to cut 6x6 gaskets 1/2" wide..
Pick up some 2 3 dollar cutting boards mark out for the plate size drill some holes get some bolts ,
and slap it together..
Well if you look up those guys youtube , you see all you need to see on the principle of a drycell..

And as far as the electrolyte becoming more concentrated , I have not had a problem with that , which I dont use baking soda either , I use Sodium hydroxide and Have had no problem with that issue..
And Im not using strong mix either , I use 1 teaspoon per gallon of water and that gives me about a 20-22 amp draw when hot......
Everything I have learned on the drycell design I got 99% of it off Youtube ..
If there is anything else I can help you with just let me know ..

I will be posting a new video on youtube probably the next day or 2 , showing the setup I have in my car........Jdcmusicman
p.s.
And one more thing YES I HATE WATER4GAS they are a ripoff and they steal peoples videos on youtube to promote there crap...
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Offline Aveon Blitz

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 02:36:16 AM »
thank you very much, i have learned a lot about how the dry cell works, although i am not fully understanding why it is called a dry cell, probably because the electrolyzier contains the fluid instead of being surrounded by it.
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Offline jdcmusicman

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 03:31:06 AM »
Yeah thats the reason its called a drycell , its not immersed in water all the water is inside between the plates
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Offline professor

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 04:38:15 AM »
Do You mean what they call a "Stack"or is that something  different?
How much water does it hold?
How quickly does it evaporate? How do you refill it?
Thanks
professor


Quote from: jdcmusicman on September 29, 2008, 03:31:06 AM
Yeah thats the reason its called a drycell , its not immersed in water all the water is inside between the plates
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Offline Aveon Blitz

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 04:57:25 AM »
Quote from: professor on September 29, 2008, 04:38:15 AM
Do You mean what they call a "Stack"or is that something  different?
How much water does it hold?
How quickly does it evaporate? How do you refill it?
Thanks
professor



well from what i got, the plates have holes in them(lots of holes), the stacks are comprised of layers of the plates and then rubber gaskets that allow water to pass in between the plates. the water is actually held in a water reservoir, which is attached to a fluid-gas separator, which is attached to both the dry cell electrolyzier and the bubbler.
to see what i mean, to on youtube.com and search dry cell assembly, if you have the faintest hint of cleverness about you, you should be able to figure out how the cell works. i have been attempting to find the advantage of wet cells, especially in the department of application, but i will probably figure that out when i start building both types.
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Offline jdcmusicman

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Re: assistance needed: comprehensive design suggestions on HOD system.
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 07:43:35 AM »
To Professor::
yes some call it a stack or a brick...My 31 plate cell holds about 1/2 liter of fluid in the cell....with the whole setup ,reservior and stuff total is about 2 liters and have run that setup for 9 hrs straight and only used little over a cup of water..


The drycells I have my 16 plate has only 3 1/4" holes in the tops of the plates, My 31 plate one has only one hole 3/8" in top center of the plates and I have my gaskets cut in a house shape  to move the gas to the holes..Alot of people put bottom holes for fluid leveling , you loose a little electrical efficiency when doing that ..My future design I am currently working on ,well its still in the design stage, will be a drycell design but without any holes whatsoever..I plan to construct a top and bottom piece that will allow gas out the top from between each individual plate and a bottom one to allow water back in each individual plate...If I pull this off I will have a 100% electrically efficient cell, with no current leakage at all...Less current leakage means more MMW....so far the highest I have gotten on my 31 plate cell is 6.41mmw ..
I look to improve that by my new design ,If can ever get the extra cash I need for materials ...One thing I have learned about all this hho study is that it cost to play...But hopefully I will have my no current leakage cell built with the next month or 2.....Oh and by the way about the highest MMW I have ever achieved in a wetcell setup is 3 - 4.4..which is not really that efficient...Drycells using get a 5 or higher all
depending on current ,space gap ,electrolyte mix and so on ....
Jdcmusicman
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