Author Topic: voltage amplification by flux exited self oscillating reed switch (Read 14865 times)

nul-points · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2008, 08:50:57 AM »

hi Professor

> Sandy
You are not a whippersnapper but you hit it right on.

i'm glad to see that i've learnt something as a result of my interest in free energy - even if i don't know anything yet about the construction of auto ignition coils!!

the magnetic effect on the contact spark sounds very interesting indeed - it sounds like you're getting to the very heart of the physical properties of electromagnetism!

i guess from your test with my circuit variation that the Xfr secondary polarisation is fixed by the manufacturing method used

as you can see from my scematic, the circuit is based on the secondary polarisation being such as to give a positive output for a positive input (all with ref. to the Vgnd line)

so the fact that you had reverse D2 to allow secondary current to flow indicates that the coils are not configured in that relationship (and presumably the assembly is not made in such a way as to allow any user modification!)

reversing D2 with your coil allows secondary current to flow & re-establishes the output spark - but now D2 is forward biased with ref. to Vin and so only allows C1 to charge up to the forward-voltage drop of the diode (< 1V)

i certainly wouldn't expect my circuit to work if the secondary is not, or cannot be, polarised as shown in my schematic

what i'd expect to happen (with the secondary polarised as shown) is that:
- C1 would charge from Vin each cycle and pulse the Xfr primary
- D1 should both help minimise switch contact wear and also capture primary coil field-collapse BEMF and add to the energy transferred to the output spark
- C1 would discharge again, ready for next input cycle, as spark current flows in secondary circuit

if all auto ignition coils have the same primary/ secondary polarisation as yours - it won't be possible to see if my circuit variation has any benefits to offer

many thanks for trying out this suggestion

all the best with your experiments
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

professor · « **Reply #16 on:** September 16, 2008, 10:59:37 PM »

Sandy,
As far as I am aware most if not all automotive Coils are internally connected in an autotransformer fashion.
Even if your transformer polarization was as shown I think with such a large Capacitor you may run into timing problems.
D2 will conduct through the secondary and transfer any negative going pulses to ground but what happens to the residual + voltage of the large capacitor assuming it does not have enough time to discharge when D2 conducts to ground.
Since the primary has to conduct before there is a Voltage transfer to the secondary absolute nothing can happen.
Its like standing on a Carpet and trying to sweep underneath of it, at least that is the way I see it, have no way to troubleshoot it to confirm what I am saying.
I am not an Engineer just a Tech. that has been troubleshooting a lot of poorly engineered Circuits and of course when we find it and submit it to Engineering guess who ALWAYS gets the Credit?
I have worked under Engineers that had a problem holding a Screwdriver let alone were they able to troubleshoot their own design.
Guess you can detect some resentment here, well I have my reasons.
But as far as Designs are concerned I admit I leave that to those that were trained to do just that.
professor

Quote from: nul-points on September 16, 2008, 08:50:57 AM

hi Professor

> Sandy
You are not a whippersnapper but you hit it right on.

i'm glad to see that i've learnt something as a result of my interest in free energy - even if i don't know anything yet about the construction of auto ignition coils!!

the magnetic effect on the contact spark sounds very interesting indeed - it sounds like you're getting to the very heart of the physical properties of electromagnetism!

i guess from your test with my circuit variation that the Xfr secondary polarisation is fixed by the manufacturing method used

as you can see from my scematic, the circuit is based on the secondary polarisation being such as to give a positive output for a positive input (all with ref. to the Vgnd line)

so the fact that you had reverse D2 to allow secondary current to flow indicates that the coils are not configured in that relationship (and presumably the assembly is not made in such a way as to allow any user modification!)

reversing D2 with your coil allows secondary current to flow & re-establishes the output spark - but now D2 is forward biased with ref. to Vin and so only allows C1 to charge up to the forward-voltage drop of the diode (< 1V)

i certainly wouldn't expect my circuit to work if the secondary is not, or cannot be, polarised as shown in my schematic

what i'd expect to happen (with the secondary polarised as shown) is that:
- C1 would charge from Vin each cycle and pulse the Xfr primary
- D1 should both help minimise switch contact wear and also capture primary coil field-collapse BEMF and add to the energy transferred to the output spark
- C1 would discharge again, ready for next input cycle, as spark current flows in secondary circuit

if all auto ignition coils have the same primary/ secondary polarisation as yours - it won't be possible to see if my circuit variation has any benefits to offer

many thanks for trying out this suggestion

all the best with your experiments
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

pese · « **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »

Quote from: nul-points on September 14, 2008, 08:58:34 AM

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

circuit cant work.
Diode 2 is in wromg polarity.
This way only the Cap charge up to +12 Volts ...
ant than no more curren can flow via induction coil (transformner)
Pese

nul-points · « **Reply #18 on:** September 17, 2008, 05:57:43 PM »

hi Professor

> As far as I am aware most if not all automotive Coils are internally connected in an autotransformer fashion.

ok, that rules out this transformer polarisation then

>Even if your transformer polarization was as shown I think with such a large Capacitor you may run into timing problems.

for my schematic i just re-used the components from your circuit to give you less hassle in trying a different config - selecting a more suitable value is of course always an option

> D2 will conduct through the secondary and transfer any negative going pulses to ground

in my variation of the circuit, D2 will conduct in series with the secondary, when the spark strikes, current will flow thro' the diode from ground to the 'undotted' secondary terminal - the diode is just intended to provide some protection against reverse-bias across the capacitor

> but what happens to the residual + voltage of the large capacitor assuming it does not have enough time to discharge when D2 conducts to ground. Since the primary has to conduct before there is a Voltage transfer to the secondary absolute nothing can happen.

my idea was that C1 would get discharged each cycle, as the secondary pulse causes current to flow out of the 'dotted' secondary terminal, across the spark gap, back through both D2 and C1 in parallel to the 'undotted' secondary terminal

hi Gustav

> circuit cant work.
> Diode 2 is in wromg polarity.
> This way only the Cap charge up to +12 Volts ...
> ant than no more curren can flow via induction coil (transformner)

diode D2 is in the same polarisation as the secondary shown in my schematic - it is intended to prevent any reverse polarity appearing across C1 but still pass the main spark discharge current circulating in the secondary branch of the circuit - it is not included to discharge C1, the spark discharge current is intended to do that

i don't have access to an ignition coil at the moment to try out the idea, which is why i asked Professor if he could try it as a variation of his original circuit - however, i've just run the schematic, as shown, on xSPICE and C1 is shown as discharging each cycle, as expected

...however, simulator programs were written by human beings, so they can certainly be wrong!

@all
i think we've established that it's not possible to re-configure the ignition trafo to match the polarisation i've used in my schematic, so that's the end of the road for this idea - thanks for your feedback

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

professor · « **Reply #19 on:** September 24, 2008, 04:09:07 AM »

Using only 6Vdc as Source this Circuit will generate a 12mm spark from a 12Vdc Automotive Coil(Toyota) it will also produce 60 Vdc from a 6Vdc Source at point indicated.

nul-points · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2008, 07:48:32 AM »

hi professor

thanks for the update - as a matter of interest, do you have an approximate value for the make/break frequency of your reed contact / neo arrangement?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

TinselKoala · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2008, 05:08:44 PM »

The voltage amplification is coming from the ignition coil, not the reed switch or the magnet. The coil is functioning as an ordinary autotransformer. The voltage output of the secondary is proportional to the time rate of change of the input current to the primary. This effect is called "induction."

The reed switch provides the necessary pulsation or change in the input current, for induction to work. But reed switches arc and have lots of "jitter" which means their timing isn't constant and the rise time of the current surge through them isn't as abrupt as it could be. Induction works better if the rise time is faster, right? Now, the magnet functions to change the switching characteristics of the reed switch (or the arc from the magnet itself) so that the current is "quenched" more crisply, as it were. This provides that high value of dI/dt that drives the induction of the coil to produce higher and higher voltages.

Tesla knew this and experimented with many magnetically-quenched spark gap designs for his coils. You could try a rotary magnetic gap in place of your reed switch, and get really high voltages. I don't know if your ig-coil could take them though.

Another factor that is very important with transformers and coils is frequency and resonance. The construction of the ig-coil is optimized for a certain frequency. And it will have a natural resonance, that probably isn't the same as the optimized frequency. An ig-coil that is operated at resonance usually won't last very long because its internal insulation isn't good enough.

The rotary magnetic gap can be made with variable speed, so you can experiment with the frequency response of your coil setup.

There are also several good solid-state ig-coil drivers out there, some based on MOSFETS and some on other power transistors like the 2n3055.. All of them seek to pulse the primary with as sharp a rise time as possible, for maximum voltage amplification in the secondary.

I have a little Jacob's ladder driven by an ig-coil and a 3055-based pulser, battery operated, that will generate nearly 3 inches of arc at the top of the ladder. It's also very cool to use audio modulation of the oscillator's frequency--then the arc becomes a "singing arc" with amazing fidelity...

professor · « **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2008, 09:52:03 PM »

Hi Tinsel Koala
Thanks for the reply. If you look back through these Posts you will find that I just wanted to demonstrate High Voltage production without using any electronics.
I was able to get a tremendous greater output than using a 555 driving a TIP41 for instance at 3 to 6 Vdc.
Been there done that.
The use of a solid state circuit for being repetitive with greater reliability, of course you are right, its the only way.
I found the greater the spark which was accentuated by the magnetic flux, the higher the output.
If you remember the old mechanical Point System on Cars, it had a NP Cap. across the Points to reduce the arcing and to suppress RF interference. It often failed but it did not hinder the operation of the Engine.
Of course you can find the resonance of the Coil by driving the base of a low voltage transistor with a function generator until you achieve resonance watching your current drop while the HV increases.
Once known (without Calculus)you can design your Osc. accordingly. I did just that with an Audio Line transformer which provided me that way with 500 Vdc to drive my Strobe. I cant remember , its resonance was somewhere around 7 Khz.
But I doubt that you get much output from a 3055 at 3Vdc,looking at the Specs for a 3055, which was one of my objectives.
At 3Vdc I tried relay switching without the use of the Magnetic flux field and it produced little of any output.Using the reed I tried to suppress contact arcing, it also suppressed the Voltage output on the secondary. I found the greater the spark the greater the HV at the cost of the contacts.
(60Vcdc) I am aware that it is a function of the collapsing field or back EMF of the Coil and D2 that I am seeing 60Volt Dc being generated.
This Posting was just an addition to something that was left out earlier in my posts.
But I appreciate your feedback, as there may be others that were not aware of your observation that I had left out.
Interesting though about Tesla quenching the Spark Gap. What was his main purpose for that?
professor

Quote from: TinselKoala on September 24, 2008, 05:08:44 PM

The voltage amplification is coming from the ignition coil, not the reed switch or the magnet. The coil is functioning as an ordinary autotransformer. The voltage output of the secondary is proportional to the time rate of change of the input current to the primary. This effect is called "induction."

The reed switch provides the necessary pulsation or change in the input current, for induction to work. But reed switches arc and have lots of "jitter" which means their timing isn't constant and the rise time of the current surge through them isn't as abrupt as it could be. Induction works better if the rise time is faster, right? Now, the magnet functions to change the switching characteristics of the reed switch (or the arc from the magnet itself) so that the current is "quenched" more crisply, as it were. This provides that high value of dI/dt that drives the induction of the coil to produce higher and higher voltages.

Tesla knew this and experimented with many magnetically-quenched spark gap designs for his coils. You could try a rotary magnetic gap in place of your reed switch, and get really high voltages. I don't know if your ig-coil could take them though.

Another factor that is very important with transformers and coils is frequency and resonance. The construction of the ig-coil is optimized for a certain frequency. And it will have a natural resonance, that probably isn't the same as the optimized frequency. An ig-coil that is operated at resonance usually won't last very long because its internal insulation isn't good enough.

The rotary magnetic gap can be made with variable speed, so you can experiment with the frequency response of your coil setup.

There are also several good solid-state ig-coil drivers out there, some based on MOSFETS and some on other power transistors like the 2n3055.. All of them seek to pulse the primary with as sharp a rise time as possible, for maximum voltage amplification in the secondary.

I have a little Jacob's ladder driven by an ig-coil and a 3055-based pulser, battery operated, that will generate nearly 3 inches of arc at the top of the ladder. It's also very cool to use audio modulation of the oscillator's frequency--then the arc becomes a "singing arc" with amazing fidelity...

professor · « **Reply #23 on:** September 24, 2008, 10:01:32 PM »

Hi nul-points
Sorry I do not have that. I don't dare to subject my frequency Counter to those spikes.
I do have a Phillips Scope but its still packed away from our last move.
Also have a Velleman HPS 10 Handheld Scope if I find it I will try to give you that Information.
Being a Mechanical Switch it cant be to high.
I doubt if it is greater than 100 hz.
Thanks for the inquiry Sandy
professor

Quote from: nul-points on September 24, 2008, 07:48:32 AM

hi professor

thanks for the update - as a matter of interest, do you have an approximate value for the make/break frequency of your reed contact / neo arrangement?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

TinselKoala · « **Reply #24 on:** September 25, 2008, 02:05:59 AM »

Hi prof
It sounds like you know what you're doing so I'll mostly shut up. Sorry to have been so pedantic, but sometimes the basics seem to get forgotten around here.
Tesla used the magnets for rapid quenching of the spark in his gaps. He was using so much current thru the gap in his primary circuits that a power arc would tend to form across the gap, even in rotary gaps. So the magnets were used both as electrodes in the gap itself as well as field pieces near the gap. His objective was to achieve rapid quenching, which equates to a sharp hard mallet striking a bell (the resonating coil) rather than a soft padded bit striking the bell. The sharp strike makes the coil ring more purely and strong.

professor · « **Reply #25 on:** September 25, 2008, 02:43:11 AM »

HiTinselKoala
Thanks for the come back.
I have learned something new but that's what we are here for.
I admit I have not read all of Tesla's Literature, as a matter of fact very little of it.
There is not enough time in the Day for that and I am not getting any younger, if you know what I mean.
But what you say makes good sense,I just have not played around with this Tesla Coils.
One Question though, his cores were Air cores and the sparkgap was a rf generator of all frequencies VLF to UHF so did it really matter to have the coil ring more purely and strong, since there was no fundamental frequency and no core to saturate.
This might be a dumb Question but I am not an Engineer and I can not answer this myself.
Build a low voltage tuned spark gap transmitter that is about the extend of it.
Oh yeah a High voltage one because my neighbour refused to turn down the volume of his awful music. Yes it worked!
Lots of TV Flyback work and RF Communications (not by sparkgap Lol...) in my former jobs in the 70's.
I am glad you did not take offense , as so many others do. Sometimes I do write things as I see them without paying to much attention to Diplomacy. English is my second language which complicates things even more.
Thank's for your understanding
professor.

Quote from: TinselKoala on September 25, 2008, 02:05:59 AM

Hi prof
It sounds like you know what you're doing so I'll mostly shut up. Sorry to have been so pedantic, but sometimes the basics seem to get forgotten around here.
Tesla used the magnets for rapid quenching of the spark in his gaps. He was using so much current thru the gap in his primary circuits that a power arc would tend to form across the gap, even in rotary gaps. So the magnets were used both as electrodes in the gap itself as well as field pieces near the gap. His objective was to achieve rapid quenching, which equates to a sharp hard mallet striking a bell (the resonating coil) rather than a soft padded bit striking the bell. The sharp strike makes the coil ring more purely and strong.

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Author Topic: voltage amplification by flux exited self oscillating reed switch (Read 14865 times)

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