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Author Topic: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)  (Read 62766 times)

Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2009, 03:26:39 AM »
@Nabo00o

I'm posting a couple of charts that show the relationships you have to consider when dealing with 'air'.

The first (below) shows the change in air density as a result of the change in both temperature and pressure, obviously this can be used in a reciprocal fashion to show changes in any one of the three induced by changes in any other of the three.

Since air is a molecule made up of mostly nitrogen and oxygen, it has the same properties as any other molecule that has mass, i.e. it has weight, is acted on by gravity, reacts to heating and/or cooling by going into a more or less energetic state, conducts heat, etc. Air is treated as a fluid in mechanical systems (air-handling, HVAC, etc).

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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2009, 03:28:15 AM »
@Nabo00o

This second (psychometric) chart can be used to study the heat content of air specific to various environmental conditions. It is often used to extrapolate the heat-load imposed on air conditioning equipment but can, conversely, also be used to find the amount of heat available to heat-pumps.

I've colored the parameters used and presented an example that is easy to follow, you just need the temperature and humidity to deduce the enthalpy (heat content) and CFM required to deliver the desired amount of heat-transfer.

Edit: the chart was too big, will include a link after uploading to alternate server (have to fix a wrong-calculation, too).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 04:00:21 AM by ATT »

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2009, 04:40:12 AM »
THanks for the chart, I know I have read somewhere else that if you heat up a certain volume of air from 0 to 100 degrees Celsius (and that it starts at normal water level air pressure) then its volume would increase with about 17 percent, I discussed this in the Maxwell demon tread with some other folks.

Also, it seems that I forgot to mention maybe the most important reason to why the equalizing method works (at least the way I think it works). You know what the water hammer effect is right? It is what happens when water flow is abruptly stopped. Since flowing water has a lot of momentum once started it will not just remove that magically if forced, the kinetic energy of the momentum will be converted directly into pressure, until it is somehow absorbed and dies out (in strong pipes this can happen with a lot of vibration instead of a bulk in the pipe).

Air does also have mass and thus momentum, even if it is a lot less than that of water, a pulse-jet does however prove the fact that it will tend to stay in motion for a while if it is moving, and therefore also resists a change.

Okey, the theory of the pulsing equalizer could be like this: If a large tank of compressed air 8 times that of the atmosphere is suddenly connected to a smaller tank or pipe so that no substantial loss of pressure in respect to the large tank does occur when it fills the smaller tank, an interesting but short lived effect can be seen: Air has momentum, and, as the pressure of the small tank approaches that of the large tank the momentum of the air forces its pressure to increase further. Eventually the kinetic energy of the air will have been almost 100% converted into pressure, and that pressure will be much higher that of potential pressure source.

Now if there was only a normal open connection between the two that increase of pressure would have gone back to its source. But, if there had been placed a one-way-valve there to allow air only to enter but not to leave the excess pressure would stay there.
As far as I could understand there should be two more valves there, one to let in normally pressurized air and one to send it back into the large tank. The idea being that the high pressure air and normal pressure air mixes and are then let back in, increasing the total amount of pressure and thus also the air in the tank.
This will then with minimal controlling losses be a completely self-filling air tank. 

The key word here as in many other "smart" technologies is 'sharp gradients'.
If this was done too slowly we could never have captured that effect, if we allowed the kinetic energy to be absorbed and then balanced no net change would occur, if we stop that symmetrical balancing function of the gas with a unidirectional pulse (one way only..... some think Tesla now I'm sure ;D)  then a asymmetrical change in pressure will occur.

So, if we want excess energy in a system, we need to keep the usual balance or symmetry away from canceling out its available true source of energy (the ether) and allow for an asymmetrical energy exchange between the physical dimension and the ether energy dimension.

This is what I believe Tony, and I don't think it sounds very unscientific, or highly improbable, that the physically observable world isn't the only thing in existence. Try to explain thoughts, or light for that matter!
Light is a wave just like sound and water-waves are also waves, and they DO require a medium in other to travel...

Bye, Naboo

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2009, 04:40:12 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2009, 07:30:53 AM »
.
This is what I believe Tony, and I don't think it sounds very unscientific, or highly improbable, that the physically observable world isn't the only thing in existence.

OK, so how do we reduce this theory to 'nuts and bolts'? What's our starting-point?

You know, I'm not necessarily a die-hard physics evangelist; as I posted before, there's a lot more science doesn't know than that which it does.

However, if there's a demonstrable effect that has been overlooked (key word here is 'demonstrable'...), then the reasons for that outcome would have to be discovered and it might very well be that your intuitive viewpoint would be validated if this were the case.

Rarely is any 'breakthrough' the result of a single 'ah ha!' moment, it usually a culmination of small achievements, ultimately linked together to provide the next 'killer app' that no one saw coming, previously.

Often these smaller successes point the way to the next step as a project 'evolves'.

In any case, intuition, creativity and insight are integral to discovery. Remaining open to alternate possibilities is important and recognizing the value of not jumping to premature conclusions as to the nature of -anything- (remaining unbiased) is a must.

This is especially the case when the concept of 'belief' enters the scene; do the experiments, log the results, extrapolate the possibilities based on those results, continually form opinions (and re-form opinions) as discovery progresses until you have accomplished what you set out to do or found there is no solution in this direction.

In any event, all parties come away with having learned a great deal, there are no 'losers'.

Tony
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2009, 03:48:50 PM »
Agreed  :)

Thing is, this is not something I have to proof (or even can at this moment), as always before you start doing something practical, be it an experiment or something to make, you need to have some kind of of theory or assumption to base on your work.

But over to the experiments and proofs, I have read and learned enough by now to be capable of producing an electromagnetic unit which could extract energy out of the seemingly emptiness of space.
Problem is, I don't have all the equipment and faculty necessary to do it in a scientific verifiable experiment, also, I don't have a lot of money to spend.

This in itself is not a proof necessary to convince you, but it is a honest attempt to enlighten you.
I have never started building on larger projects without having some kind of theory and evidence to back it up. Still, I believe it is when we take those risks and make a go for something unknown that we can get a chance of exploring a whole new territory outside of what is known. Many of the big (practical) leaps done in science isn't done by following the standard textbooks. To discover something unknown we need to look beyond the borders of our present knowledge...

Still, some have shown the way forward towards the new unified or "united" science like Nikola Tesla and Albert Einstein, both of which believed firmly in the existence of an ether. While Einstein said that the theory of relativity without the ether would be impossible, Nikola Tesla proved it in his many experiments, proving, that electricity in its fundamental nature is in fact nothing electrical, nothing consisting of electrons, but of a massless ether gas which he could in fact observe in his laboratory.

If you are interested in Tesla's experiments I suggest (like many others) that you read Gerry Vassilatos book: Secrets of Cold War Technology: Project Haarp and Beyond.
 
Naboo

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2009, 03:48:50 PM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2009, 02:06:34 AM »
.
Quote
you need to have some kind of of theory or assumption to base on your work.
How about letting the theory express itself from the effects realized by your work? But I do know what you mean, you can't concoct things aimlessly, you need some hint of direction to start with, an initial goal from which there are, invariably, 'spinoffs'. Often the 'spinoffs' become the new goal.

Quote
I have read and learned enough by now to be capable of producing an electromagnetic unit which could extract energy out of the seemingly emptiness of space.
Cool! In 1957 (I was 10) I took the insides out of a transistor radio and put together a 'powerless' radio that didn't need an antenna or ground (of course it only got one station...). What kind of power-output you think yours will get? Any prototype data yet?

Quote
This in itself is not a proof necessary to convince you, but it is a honest attempt to enlighten you.
Yes, any enlightenment is greatfully accepted.

Quote
Many of the big (practical) leaps done in science isn't done by following the standard textbooks.
Sure they are. Even Eienstein and Tesla built on the science and math background they aquired at university. You have to invest in gaining enough background to acheive a position from which to leverage present knowlege into new ideas. Edison was self-taught, but he embellished his own knowlege by surrounding himself with 'top-talent' (In fact, Tesla was in Edison's 'stable' for a time).

Quote
To discover something unknown we need to look beyond the borders of our present knowledge...
That's what science does every day. CERN is a multi billion dollar 'what-if' experiment, they have no idea of what they might discover.

So far, building on 'textbook' knowlege, science has made inroads to teleportation, time-travel, invisability, multi-dimentional existance, psychokinesis, varying the speed of light and more. All of the above mentioned were considered 'Sci-Fi' or 'impossible' even ten years ago, now they're formal papers in peer-reviewed journals.
 
Quote
Tesla and Albert Einstein, both of which believed firmly in the existence of an ether.
Many at the turn of the century used the term 'ether' interchangeably with 'space', 'air', and 'atmosphere. A hundred years ago, these terms were semantically equivalent.

In the case where 'ether' refers to an unknown all-encompassing medium from which all things emanate, there may actually be some recently discovered evidence for this (provided, again, by 'textbook' scientists), but it may be even too wierd for the etherial 'true-believers' to wrap their heads around since it's implications would reduce the entire universe to 'Tron' level, but that deserves another topic altogether.
 
Naboo, you're a smart person, go for all the exposure you can get to electronics, physics and math. Do the work, run the experiments, 'pay your dues'. If you like hard work on the road to new discovery, you're heading in the right direction.

Tony
.

Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2009, 03:54:09 AM »
Quote
Cool! In 1957 (I was 10) I took the insides out of a transistor radio and put together a 'powerless' radio that didn't need an antenna or ground (of course it only got one station...). What kind of power-output you think yours will get? Any prototype data yet?

Not to hijack the thread but could you share the ins and out with us in another thread I hear an awful lot of these claims so please do share the process.

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2009, 03:54:09 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2009, 06:30:02 AM »
Not to hijack the thread but could you share the ins and out with us in another thread I hear an awful lot of these claims so please do share the process.
@infringer
Don't get excited, think 'xtal-radio'. Take a ferrite-loop antenna, use the p-n junction of a transistor as a detector, wire an earphone across it (a resistor to develop the sig helps a little), shove everything in a 3"x2"x1/2" cardboard box and if you lived in L.A. in the '50s, you'd pick up at least one of the three major 50KW rock stations in the area: KDAY, KFWB or KRLA (maybe KHJ, but that wasn't a rock-station back then, so it didn't count).

No power, no external antenna, no ground, just a lot of RF - you pick up the strongest signal.

I don't really think a 10 year old kid messing around with the equivalent of a xtal radio constitutes much in the way of a 'claim', however.

But thanks for asking.

Tony

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2009, 01:46:35 PM »
It sounds a bit like a crystal radio, only they use a special crystal diode as a detector.

This electromagnetic unit I'm talking about is a direct result of reading and understanding Alexander Frolov's papers, specifically this: http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/work.htm

What I've been searching for most of the time while looking at free energy is a theory which can explain fairly simple how and why different generator prototypes can work, and what the underlying principle behind it is.
When we understand the core of it we do not need to be limited to a specific design, and it can also help us in our understanding of other inventions previously thought impossible to comprehend.


The reason I mentioned the electric unit was because it is related to the heat pump in its asymmetry of operation and proves the concept's direct connection with practical models.
I guess I should start a tread dedicated to help bringing both this theory and its practical models into reality ;)


So... what do you think about this tread? Do you think it is worthy of continuing at all, maybe by focusing on the compressed air part, or maybe it is to be considered obsolete :D

btw, farming is great! Not with animals though....
Nab

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2009, 01:46:35 PM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
Quote
It sounds a bit like a crystal radio, only they use a special crystal diode as a detector.
Of course, it -is- a xtal radio. it doesn't take anything special to act as a detector, you can use a diode or a transistor (my first one was a razor-blade and a pencil lead). In the old days they used galina crystals and a catwisker.

Quote
btw, farming is great! Not with animals though....
Back in the early '70s I had goats, chickens, ducks and a good sized garden on five acres. Had to milk the goats twice a day, freshen them in the spring, hassle with hawks and coyotes that would try to get the chickens, tend the garden, keep the compost going, bring in the harvest, winter over some establishe crops, keep the irrigation systems and the well up, repair fences pens and outbuildings, work at a job during the day and go to school at night on the GI bill.

I think the accepted term is WMFAO, but I'd like to do it again (the farming part). I'd like to unplug as much as possible from dependence on externally provided resources, including utilities, water and food.

Energy is a big part of that but FE isn't required to make any of it happen, there's alternative means (especially now) that let anybody with the desire to unplug 'cut the chord'.

On the thread; hey, it's 'your-baby', where do you want it to go?

Keeping these things 'focused' is always a chore but you don't want to exclude any helpful info, even if it's marginal to the main thrust.

Tony
 


Offline Tempest

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2009, 02:06:44 AM »
Hi guys, I have been reading this thread for the last couple of day and this popped in to my head. Will take no offence to improvements to the design.   

@ATT from your back ground, you should be able to do some calculations on this, although it could take a lot of time.

There are two loops in this system. The Freon loop which starts at cylinders 1 and 2. These cylinders are heated by solar or some thing. (At first I was just looking at designing a solar motor). At top dead center the valve closes. After the crank is past top dead center and it is pulling some vacuum, the injector fires and put some liquid Freon into the cylinder. The heated cylinder expands the Freon and pushes the cylinder down, turning the crank. At 180 degrees the valve opens and exhaust the Freon to the condenser which drains into the liquid tank.

Note 1: set Freon pressure to about 5 degree above ambient temp.

The second part was an add-on after I was reading this thread and researching air engines. Cylinders 3 and 4 are used to bring in ambient air and pressurize it to heat up cylinders 1 and 2, then exhaust in to the air. Or you could use it to cool the condenser after it depressurizes.

Note 2: nothing is to scale, the cylinders could be different sizes and the crank is definitely not the right size, comparatively.

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2009, 02:06:44 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2009, 04:24:34 AM »
.
Hi guys, I have been reading this thread for the last couple of day and this popped in to my head. Will take no offence to improvements to the design.
@tempest

Nice schematic, good detail.

Tempest, since you're getting into Organic Rankine Cycle here, you might want to have a look at another thread I'm on (Tony Triola: it's short, only three pages), it'll help to get us all on the 'same page' with ORC and maybe give you a little insight to the ups and downs of getting in to all this:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/269605551/m/2551084412

Have you had a chance to read through the pdf I posted earlier in this thread?
http://www.labothap.ulg.ac.be/cmsms/Staff/QuoilinS/TFE_SQ010607.pdf

It takes us through the cycle with a rotary expander and is pretty complete.

Reciprocating expanders such as the one you show are popular too, just depends on the application.

What you want to keep in mind is the word 'leverage' (not necessarily in the Archimedian sense...), which is to say, use as much off-the-shelf stuff as you can to cobble up your proof of concept so you don't tie-up your talents reinventing the proverbial 'wheel'.

But, hey, yeah, check out that other thread to see what a couple of us were batting back and forth earlier, there might be some resources listed there you can use (in this case, you will be 'leveraging' work on this idea somebody else has already done, it might save you some hassle...).

Tony
.

Offline Tempest

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2009, 01:08:32 PM »
excellent links, thank you very much. and sorry if I was off topic

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2010, 07:17:54 PM »
Hi everybody (and ATT if you're still watching this tread), I must admit that I didn't perfectly understand the heat pump cycle when I first started this tread, and only recently grasped the core concept.

I thought that from what I had read at wikipedia, that the primery operation of the common heat pump was to compress and expand the working refigerant so that the temperature would then increase and decrease, and cause a following emmision and absorbation of temperature to its external environment.

But this is not the real reason to why it works so well, and even though someone on this tread mentioned it rougly well (I think it was angryscientist), I still had to ask a guy who knew it spesifically to understand it.

So yes, it is all about phase change, meaning in this case the change from liquid to gas and back again. And the "secret" of the heat pump is that the refigerant needs very little change in its pressure to do this. This also means that a theoretically high COP system needs a refigerant which is very close to evaporation and condensation pressure at all times, meaning that very little effort is needed to compress it into a liquid.

Also, all heat pumps should have been equipped with an slightly geared up turbine instead of a expansion valve, which wastes all the energy which the compressor generates when it creates high pressure air. There is actually (at least theoretically) a possibility to recover most of that energy used to compress the gass this way, but again losses of all sorts will make it less than what was originally expended.


Thinking in terms of phase change, it also intruiged and made me wonder if the opposite operation would be possible to solve the problem of creating mechanical work from heat, efficiently...
What if we had another system "thermally connected" to the heat pump, which used a refigerant which experienced a phase change in the temperature region between the hot and cold side of the heat pump?

We could then use that sudden hundredfold increase (and decrease) in volume to power mechanical pistons. These would then set a shaft in motion and allow us create useful work.

Could this be possible, in just the same way as the phase change in heat pumps is exploited to trick heat into flowing from cold to hotter, which could never happen without its interferrence?

Julian

Offline sparks

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2010, 11:45:24 PM »
The phase change you refer to is just used to decrease the size of the machine.    The action of the compressor is to lower the vapor pressure over the top of the liquid so that it can boil easier.  As the atomized mist is sprayed into the evaporator the liquid boils at a decreased temperature.  The atoms leaving the liquid drops the thermal energy remaining in the liquid state as there are fewer collisions between atoms because there arent as many in there to bang around.  The compressor must continue to maintain a low vapor pressure or the flow of heat is now absorbed by the gas molecules and the liquid and there are soon just as many gas atoms condensing as there are evaporating.  A good heat pump would be operated above the boiling point of the refridgerant.  The pressure would rise and this pressue could then drive a piston.  The piston would have to be retained while the pressure built up.  The heated gas upon release of the piston would loose its kinetic energy and the interior temperature of the heat exchanger would drop.  This would allow for the effortless return of the piston where it would wait for enough thermal energy to raise the pressure on the piston head to the trigger actuation.  The materials of the heat exchanger could be such that even though the temperature drops drastically on movement of the piston it does not allow the transfer of heat fast enough into the gas which allows for a window of oppurtunity for the piston to return to a few degrees after top dead center.  This machine already exists and could have been refridgerating our food for many years know.  It was designed by Lord Kelvin.  But they chose not to do build commercialize it for obvious reasons. 

 

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