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Author Topic: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)  (Read 62630 times)

Offline angryScientist

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2009, 11:02:04 PM »
@ATT
Quote
Is the published heat-output from a heat-pump the actual BTU quantity delivered into the space?
Umm? On that, I'm not sure. Maybe I don't understand the rating system.

@Nabo00o
Quote
I understand that you know this subject quite well, but when the total heat which a heat pump can supply is given, and it exceeds the electric power necessary to power it by a ratio which is the rated COP, how then can that be wrong, or something close to miss-information?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not an expert. Just curious, like you.
I think of it like as "heat mover" more than anything else. To heat a room you buy 1 unit of energy from the power company and use it to move 3 units (which you don't pay for) of energy from the outside.

)It doesn't cost anything to move heat (in the way it wants to go)
)It cost as least as much to squeeze it into a small space as you get.
)You can use the latent (hidden) heat trick to do more work than you pay for. (Rule above no longer applies)

It's no trick. You get more than you pay for (period). It's because you don't pay anything to move the heat that is hidden!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2009, 11:33:14 PM »
@ATTUmm? On that, I'm not sure. Maybe I don't understand the rating system.

@Nabo00oDon't get me wrong, I'm not an expert. Just curious, like you.
I think of it like as "heat mover" more than anything else. To heat a room you buy 1 unit of energy from the power company and use it to move 3 units (which you don't pay for) of energy from the outside.

)It doesn't cost anything to move heat (in the way it wants to go)
)It cost as least as much to squeeze it into a small space as you get.
)You can use the latent (hidden) heat trick to do more work than you pay for. (Rule above no longer applies)

It's no trick. You get more than you pay for (period). It's because you don't pay anything to move the heat that is hidden!

Well there you have it, this is what really drives me in this research. Although you and most other say that a heat pump 'moves' heat, and of course that fits very well with the name, I think the correct thing to say is that it 'separates' or 'splits' up a certain temperature into two different temperature potentials whose energy is the number of the COP times the energy input. Okey maybe not the best description possible but that potentials is 'real' energy, and is some times more than the other real input (input of the operator!).

I'll see if can't find the latest updates on high-efficient heat pumps, it could be interesting to see where the present technology is at the moment  ;)

Nab

Offline angryScientist

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2009, 11:44:12 PM »
If your thinking about how to convert ambient heat to usable power then Cool!
I have been thinking about that one for a long time. Here is some more fuel for the fire;

I think it has been done. I think of a nuclear submarine. If they are only 50% efficient and they dump half of the ~100MW power their generating in heat. That would heat up the sea water around it dramatically! That's bad in several ways:
(1. Warm water will rise changing the natural circulation.(Bad)
(2. Polar missions will melt a lot of ice.(Bad, but make the tax payers pay for the stupidity of paying previously.)
(3. Warm water will emit deep infrared, detectable from space.(Unacceptable)

If those submarines are dumping that much heat into the bottom of the oceans and under the polar ice caps then WHAT THE @!%$ ARE the politicians doing scarring the population and wanting more money to fix the problem? They are the problem. And they want more money for what?!?!

Sorry. Got a bit riled up. Don't like paying for things that are not for my good.

I don't see a problem with the idea of an ambient heat engine.

I think the entire engine should be held at a temperature lower than ambient, surrounded by good insulation. Call that the new sink. Ambient heat flows in only though the engine. Heat not converted by engine is removed by heat pump.
Engine 50% efficient
Heat Pump 300% efficient

What's the problem?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2009, 11:44:12 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2009, 01:23:59 AM »
Exactly!

You hit the nail on the head conversion so far the best idea I have seen is sterling engine...

But... there may be a material that expands with heat quite a bit and shrinks in lower temperatures I am sure of it ...

In which case if we could use a piezoelectric coupling with this material we could obtain energy output as the device shrinks and expands if made correctly ;)

That would be as close to direct conversion as I would think expansion and contraction. Piezoelectric is likely the way to go I often wondered why people did not try to make solar cells for rochell salt crystals?


Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2009, 06:42:44 AM »
You hit the nail on the head conversion so far the best idea I have seen is sterling engine...
Maybe, take a look at the chart below. Now take a look at the 'expander temperature' and see where the temp line crosses the efficiency line at about 200 deg F, that's about what you get out of a heat pump (and that's with a slow (high TD) condenser-loop).

You might be able to offset this a little and increase the differential by stealing some 'cold' from the evap-side of the HP, but for ambient operation, you're looking at about 10% if an HP is the heat source (one of the reasons I leveraged refrigerant properties, again, by going to an ORC).

(Source: http://www.proepowersystems.com/Stirling%20Comparison.pdf)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 08:32:44 AM by ATT »

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2009, 06:42:44 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2009, 07:14:52 AM »
.
In which case if we could use a piezoelectric coupling with this material we could obtain energy output as the device shrinks and expands if made correctly

About 20-30% efficiency:
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070603225026.htm

Maybe 60% possible:
www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4243793.html

Check out some of the other links on the previous page.
.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2009, 01:42:47 PM »
@Angryscientist
If you mean that I want to extract energy from the heat of the environment then no.
This is what the main conflict in this whole tread has been about, of course we could use the energy of heat in the atmosphere to generate electricity and mechanical motion, it is recharged by the sun every second!

However it is not what the heat pump does, it uses energy to make two potentials of temperature without spending energy directly to the amount of potential energy produced, it is a whole different story!
Also, if no temperature was ever absorbed and emitted in the heat exchangers no potential would be produced and the system would be in a state of symmetry. But because of the changes in temperature not directly tied to the pressure created by the compressor, an asymmetrical potential source can be generated and used, and this is what makes a heat pump special, at least from my perspective.


Of course there's nothing wrong in draining the heat of our planet a little, it would probably help it, but I do not believe that this is what the heat pump does, remember, it creates both heat and cold, not just one, and this does also make the system balance and fit the extended 4-space conservation of energy.
We are not using physical energy here, we are in fact using time!

Nab

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2009, 01:42:47 PM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2009, 05:28:51 PM »
.
However it is not what the heat pump does, it uses energy to make two potentials of temperature without spending energy directly to the amount of potential energy produced.....an asymmetrical potential source can be generated.....remember, it creates both heat and cold, not just one.....We are not using physical energy here, we are in fact using time!

@Nabo00o
I like your idea of investigating the possibilities in taking advantage of the current state of efficiency in heat heat-pumps, but I can't handle the ideas you have of why a heat-pump does what it does.

Look, there isn't any hidden esoterica involved with any of this. There's no symmetry/asymmetry, no splitting of heat and cold, no temporal displacement, no 'creation' of heat or cold and most importantly, no 'free-lunch'.

The initial efficiencies are the result of leveraging the properties of refrigerants. The gains that have occured over the years are cheifly the the result of increased motor efficiency, exchanger optimization, refrigerant engineering and better controls.

When I started in this field in 1972, heat-pumps had a COP of 2.0, it's taken 37 years for design improvements and technology advances to get that COP pumped up to 5+.

Any current potential for getting the 'snake to eat it's tail' and have energy left over is the result of incremental improvements made by engineers that subscribe to the predictable, calculatable, well-known laws of thermodynamics.

That's the way I approach it; the quantities we're dealing with are measurable, the resulting values can be plugged-in to mathematical statements, the results can be extrapolated over a range of conditions.

Before fashioning an alternate view, it would be useful to get a good grounding in the currently accepted methodology to actually understand 'why' those of us that have made a living doing this over these many years accept the current view.

Having said all that, tell me about your guitar and your farm. I still have my '68 355, HD28 and strat but haven't used any of them in years (I'm just getting too old...).

Nabo00o, your idea really is a good one given the current state of the art, I would never have considered it if you hadn't brought it to our attention.
.
 

Offline nueview

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2009, 08:05:14 PM »
hi nabooo

you seem to have gotten the idea of how energy works but i noticed that nobody stated that if you raise the temperature of a liquid and it takes on energy to become a gas that the rise in temperature and pressure will continue to raise the temperature and pressure although it gives a diminishing return it has been put to good use on the air car system by holding the pressure at the top of the stroke for a time to gain efficiency and power.
a sterling engine is a good idea but pressure blead off the system when hot could add energy to the system and when the system cools the vaccuum could be used for a restart of the system so all and all you got a good idea.
there is a swedish company that makes large sterling engines for submarines but can't seem to find the address right now.

martin

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2009, 08:05:14 PM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2009, 03:29:48 AM »
ATT you're right, I need to keep my feet on the ground. But just so you know, I have have always looked upon myself as a human who wants to study and know things, not just get convinced by some fantastic idea and then just go for it. All that about symmetry and asymmetry is deeper than you could think, it goes not only for every possible free energy device in existence, asymmetry is also the primary requirement to create any kind of force, and so also to do any kind of work, weather positive or negative. If two forces are equal or in symmetry, then no net work can be done.
Sorry if this kind of talk bores you, since you obviously knows the practical workings of the machine well.
I do however wonder if there is a theoretical bit which the scientists and engineers who have created todays modern heat-pumps have forgot to include, or to take into account.
For example, a REAL COP of 5 is not just about saving in on inefficiencies is it? I do believe there is more.

About other stuff, that guitar was really pretty cheap  :D I bought it, an amplifier and a soundbox in a combined package, non of them was really that good, but I am really happy that I spent some money on it :)
Our farm is really my grandparents farm, we don't work with that anymore, but my dad grows and sells all kinds of flowers and bushes.  We got a pretty big garage/workshop and my granddad also used to collect all kinds of metal parts, old machines, steel plates, anything really which could be used for something.
I guess I'm pretty lucky to have all that available now, even though it is without any kind of order and looks like what many might have called a junk storage.

@Martin
Good to see you here!
This continuation of temperature and pressure, is it related to the sudden phase change instead of a gradual one, how exactly is it used? Thanks.

Offline nueview

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2009, 06:10:24 AM »

here is what i know about it from studying and a few tests that seem to prove the MIDI air car point in germany about the turn of the century they used these engines for mining trains as there were no combustion gasses to poison the miners just air they were very efficient and were used in the new york subway for many years the air car engine uses a cammed link arm so as to delay the stroke at top dead center for about 70 degrees of the rotation as the gas is put under pressure it gives up heat this raises the pressure and makes more heat and more pressure as the piston passes top dead center the gas is gaining pressure faster than the poston is traveling until the link arm breaks over and the power stroke really begins the air cannot be used again for another stroke as the energy removed from the gas does not return to the gas that fast so someone wrote that there was a way to electrostatically energize this spent gas and get more power from it on consecutive uses but there was some kind of patent disbute and havent heard any more about it there is a way to compress air into a tank with ventury action but forget what it is called it was used on the subway trains it is very interesting to study.
there was also a device invented back in the thirties by bell labs called a choke checker i have one guess that really dates me but you put 125 ponds air pressure in it at the 1/3 point and the air spins along the tube at the outside of the tube you get cold air out and the center tube that comes out the other end gives you hot air the old cars had a bimetal choke adjustment and this would make it react very cheap and pretty neat little device it works on air speed weight and the vortex principle.

Martin

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2009, 06:10:24 AM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2009, 01:00:22 AM »
I just want to say that all critics and criticism is welcome, working out a way to use the power of a heat pump to create useful work is not a result wishful thinking :D By that I mean that I and everybody else here can obviously be wrong, we don't know for sure before we can test these ideas, maybe theoretically first and then practically at the end.

I don't want any preassumed ideology to block the true practical reality, whatever it may be. Often it is like that in reality, we all want the same but have different ways to do and explain it. Then misunderstanding and ill-interpreted ideas can arise. I just hope that we can all cooperate here, because I think that we do all have the same common goal: To make available a source of free energy. Free as in free speech, free of cost (long term cost) and free of limitations and restrictions... 

Naboo

Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2009, 06:46:00 PM »
.
@Nabo00o
With the farm, you have the perfect basis for self-sufficiency, a perfect setup!

Since several posters mentioned that Stirling engines might be a more efficient means of converting heat energy to mechanical/electrical energy, I had a look at some of what's out there. I don't have any first-hand experience with stirlings so please post if you can provide better information.

This is not exhaustive, but my sampling of information about stirling engines, so far, doesn't show anything commercially available that would lend itself to this project (maybe a custom-build or prototype may be available).

The best actual application-efficiency I've seen is from Sunpower who has a 95-Watt model with 36% efficiency, which is a prototype and not large enough to be practical, although they do have a 1KW at lower efficiency, which is still not large enough.

Apparently Dean Kamen has been working on a stirling for a few years and has a patent, no news of it's commercial availability yet.

There has been no significant adoption of stirling technology by industry.

By contrast, there -has- been significant adoption of Rankine Cycle freon expanders by industry.

There are plenty of good (stirling) ideas out there but apparently none are good enough to pursue commercially and they haven't managed to find a solid niche of acceptance.

On the face of it, the idea of a sterling operating on a temperature differential seems perfectly suited for high-efficiency conversion when coupled to a heat-pump, but the efficiencies are theoretical at this point. Practical efficiencies have to be measured and that requires engines with the capacity to turn a generator with the umph to power an HP, sterlings of sufficient size to do this aren't  available off the shelf.

Some links:
http://www.stirlingengine.com/FullPower.adp
http://www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html
http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=1
http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTStirling.html
http://www.sunpower.com/lib/sitefiles/pdf/productlit/Engine%20Brochure.pdf
.

Offline ATT

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »
Edit:
Deleted a double-post of the above.
Tony

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2009, 10:01:15 PM »
You're right, the first and most troublesome problem is to conquer all the inefficiencies connected to making heat a viable source of useful energy. So there is the big problem, I guess doing it the way I first proposed was primarily to prove a theoretical point, that an easy and understandable cycle could actually be used in commercial power-plants. I think however there are many more heat power techniques which could prove to have much better efficiencies, for example the equalizer method described at the aircaraccess page.

This seems to be practically the same thing as using a heat pump, but instead of using pressure to alter the temperature, it uses temperature to alter pressure. As I have understood it, by equalizing the pressure between a small and large tank of air within a small amount of time, they will not only contain the same pressure, but the increase of pressure inside the small tank will also increase its temperature, which again leads to an increases in pressure. This is not a perpetual or self-increasing feedback process, but is a results of mixing two gases of the same temperature but different pressure, the end result is an increase in temperature, an therefore also a slight increase in pressure, but only for a moment. When the temperature has equalized again to its environment no increase of temperature will exist.

I am not sure, but I think this should be an important focus in this tread, even if it was mainly about the heat pump. The pressure versus temperature process is what interests me  :)

Naboo

Edit: I wish I could have altered the original topic name....

 

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