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Author Topic: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)  (Read 62685 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2008, 02:40:24 AM »
Do not be so sure of that infringer, even if it is the cheapest technology aviable to make all our cars into free driving petrobiles :)
Of course, the heat pump will definitely not be the cheapest and powerfull technology available, but it proves a point of immence importance.

Now to the heat pump again, it will need a sufficient high temperature to start, because in a way, it uses the heat as a medium to channel in extra energy potentials. And in the case of a possible overunity machine, a small ammount of heat input to start the system isn't such a big loss.

Still you seem to fall away from my main reason to belive why that a heat pump can eceed unity, because it creates a temperature potential of much greater energy potential than input, and that this energy potential does in no way reflect on the energy allready existing in the system in the form of heat, as that is another form of potential, but still usable  energy of course.

Hmm, any more reasons I have forgot to mention?

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Offline spinner

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2008, 11:43:51 AM »
Hello Spinner:

The FE confusion arises, I think, from the fact that environmental heat is as free as sun and/or wind, but, I agree that this is far from being OU in the sense "we FE woo woos" understand OU.

The National Institute of Oceanic Technology (NIOT) from India has developped a process called "Low temperature thermal desalination" (LTTD) based on the Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) technology, that uses the same principle of taking massive amounts of heat from the environment to generate distilled water. From the economic point of view, you use 180 watts of commercial electric energy (basically to pump sea water and create a partial vaccum chamber with a vaccum pump) to generate 1 cubic meter of distilled water. The process also takes around 36 Kw in the form of environmental heat for every cubic meter of water produced, but nobody has to pay for it, hence is "free".  If you compare the economic energy cost of this process with the current main technology used for desalination (Reverse Osmosis) that uses an average of 3,5 Kw of electric energy (to pump the water at high pressure through the membranes) per each cubic meter of water produced, you can see that the LTTD is far more convenient.

I doubt that anyone would really miss the environmental heat, that ultimately comes from solar energy, as long as the sun shines in the sky.

Regards.

@ChileanOne
Hello! Glad to talk to you here!
Thank you very much for a very good post and info about LTTD process. It's good to see an implementation of scientifical understanding of Nature..

I glimpsed through an article, it's nice to see some real action. This is a very good project, using "a conventional understanding and alternative - 'ambient' energy".

I was never really impressed by a current (popular) sea-water desalination methods (using a "brute force", relatively low efficient "reverse osmosis" and a high quality energy for producing drinking water), but this LTTD process appears much more natural. Of course it has a minuses, too (weather/ambient/location dependable, not suitable for a small-scale use, etc...). Still, a very promissing challenge...

@Nab00o
Yes, I think I understand what you mean... A "high CoP" heat pump should produce large enough "thermal difference"/potential, that a carefully made heat to mechanical converter (like Stirling), to electricity conversion (el. generator) may produce enough electricity for the system to be able to self-sustain... (constantly operating - pumping heat from "somewhere" (untill the "heat source" dies...))

But you're forgetting that a potential (temperature) difference is not equal to the work/energy potential... A large "heat" but small "temperature" difference reservoir has a much larger "work" / energy potential than a large temp./small heat capacity difference...

In a way, it's the same as V/I terms of electricity...

Yes, it appears that  a CoP 4 heat pump (currently there are a CoP 6, 7 and even >10 Thermodynamic devices....) would allowed a self-sustaining of a heat-pumping... Surprisingly, that would not broke any TD laws.... The energy would still be pumped out some EXTERNAL source.... But we wouldn't need any imput of (additional, electrical) energy... Our home "heat pump" would be completelly driven by a surrounding heat....
As NO electricity connections, only X kW of a pumped thermal energy... So, where's the catch ???

Do you know any such device? Is there some kind of conspiracy involved? ??
Thanks for answering.


Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 10:19:55 PM »
@ChileanOne
Hello! Glad to talk to you here!
Thank you very much for a very good post and info about LTTD process. It's good to see an implementation of scientifical understanding of Nature..

I glimpsed through an article, it's nice to see some real action. This is a very good project, using "a conventional understanding and alternative - 'ambient' energy".

I was never really impressed by a current (popular) sea-water desalination methods (using a "brute force", relatively low efficient "reverse osmosis" and a high quality energy for producing drinking water), but this LTTD process appears much more natural. Of course it has a minuses, too (weather/ambient/location dependable, not suitable for a small-scale use, etc...). Still, a very promissing challenge...

@Nab00o
Yes, I think I understand what you mean... A "high CoP" heat pump should produce large enough "thermal difference"/potential, that a carefully made heat to mechanical converter (like Stirling), to electricity conversion (el. generator) may produce enough electricity for the system to be able to self-sustain... (constantly operating - pumping heat from "somewhere" (untill the "heat source" dies...))

But you're forgetting that a potential (temperature) difference is not equal to the work/energy potential... A large "heat" but small "temperature" difference reservoir has a much larger "work" / energy potential than a large temp./small heat capacity difference...

In a way, it's the same as V/I terms of electricity...

Yes, it appears that  a CoP 4 heat pump (currently there are a CoP 6, 7 and even >10 Thermodynamic devices....) would allowed a self-sustaining of a heat-pumping... Surprisingly, that would not broke any TD laws.... The energy would still be pumped out some EXTERNAL source.... But we wouldn't need any imput of (additional, electrical) energy... Our home "heat pump" would be completelly driven by a surrounding heat....
As NO electricity connections, only X kW of a pumped thermal energy... So, where's the catch ???

Do you know any such device? Is there some kind of conspiracy involved? ??
Thanks for answering.



Bah! Just wrote a whole page then something with my browser screwed up and I lost it ;(

Anyway, the device is not in existance but all the components is, its only a matter of putting them together to make it work. Also, it would be far better to throw away the electric turbine that drives the heatpump and instead use the sterling engine to drive it, as it would be alot more efficient and would not need an electrical powersource for the gas compression.
I personally think that there is a problem both with the scientific community and with the power innterests (mainly oil), and since they both are happy with the way our world is today they will have a hard time changing to something as radical as this. Of course that goes for any other possible free energy machine cabeable of producing a usable output of energy

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 10:19:55 PM »
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Offline greendoor

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2008, 05:00:57 AM »
Conservative science is tarnished with this fixation that free-energy, perpetual motion or overunity is impossible.  For this reason, the makers of any appliance (such as a heat pump) that offers free energy has to devise some semantics to make it appear acceptable.  This is why the term Coefficeint of Performance has become necessary - to avoid silly arguments like we have here.

A typical heat pump is really a sophisticated solar energy device.  The ambiant environment is used as a heat soak, so these things can work at night or on cloudy days - but basically the heat comes from the sun, or geothermal or whatever heat source is creating the heat energy.  The clever trick is to turn a lot of low temperature heat into a smaller amount of high temperature heat.  In that regard, it's a little like an electrical transformer than can turn low volts into high volts, at the expense of current.  So the total energy into this thing is always less that you get out, due to losses.  But to the consumer who doesn't have to pay for the ambiant heat energy, it's FREE ENERGY, baby. 

There NO reason why a heat pump cannot power a generator, and given a COP of 4, there is NO reason why the generator could not run the heat pump, and the surplus would be genuine free energy.  Clearly a Perpetuum Mobile of the 2nd kind.  Without a doubt.  And this fact should not be disputed.

So why aren't we seeing this being done?  Who cares about semantics - this is FREE ENERGY for the taking.  Ultimately, it will cool the earth a little.  Worried about global warming?  This is the solution.

I agree with the original poster - this fact needs to be pointed out, because obviously not many people understand that this is possible.  They are too indoctrinated with the 'laws of thermodynamics' mantra.  But this does not break the laws of thermodynamics - the source of energy is obvious.  And its free.  And yes, it could definately be engineered to run a self-sustaining perpetual motion machine with useful power output.  (If we can avoid the semantic disputes about whether a mechanical device that could break down in 100 years time is by definition 'perpetual' ...).

Do it.  Build it  Make yourself rich.  It's all possible.





 

Offline greendoor

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2008, 05:23:37 AM »
It would make a lot of sense to avoid some of the steps in the process - because a heat pump is made for people who want cheap heat.  But if we want cheap electricty, don't bother turning the compressed refrigerant into heat again - turn it into rotary motion.

So a decent commercial device would be a box that connects to a fluid loop buried in the ground that is the source of a high volume of low temperature heat.  We would need a starter motor to get this started, but once started, this would self power.  There would be a refrigerant compressor, that initially the starter motor would have to turn.  This compressor would compresses the low temp refrigerant and turn it into hot compressed liquid.  This liquid would then go to a turbine, where it expands and cools, driving a generator.  The energy available to the generator turbine is the sum of the energy being put into the compressor (initially from the starter motor) and the sum of the heat energy extracted from the loop embedded into the environment. 

The trick is to let the hot compressed refrigerant gas really expand so much that it gets very cold.  Have you ever seen the frost that forms around a car tyre when the air is being let out?  Expanding gases get very cold - because obviously the motion of the molecules has less friction between them as the distance between increases due to increasing volume. 

So this cool gas is pumped through the ambiant loop, and this causes the ambiant heat to continue to flow into the system. 

We know that with todays technology, a COP >3 is possible.  So allowing for losses in the turbine, compressor and generator, should still be able to get overunity with good engineering practices.  It won't be easy - but it should be possible.

Providing the generator is outputting more power than the compressor is consuming, the starter motor could be turned off and the system should self sustain.   


 
 

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2008, 05:23:37 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2008, 05:42:18 AM »
Sure decompress liquid to gas open valve then have a turbine spinning generating electricity ...


But the design would have to be all contained within the unit and would be subject to very volitile conditions if you had a turbine generating off of an external shaft then you would be constantly loosing gas so everything would have to be generated within the unit... Are these fumes flameable? Would a spark ignite them and cause an explosion ?? My guess is most likely while I have researched it throughly you may want to as it may cause an explosion.
Though I urge you to look further to see if this gas form is highly flameable dont wish to eliminate a possibility here and maybe there is a way to use an eclosed berring so that you do not lose gas but I highly doubt it espicially at temperature differnces it is subjected to ...

There was a design fot liquid nitrogen electricity generation that was being sold at MPI I believe might wanna look at that...

So that brings us back to the sterling engine and possible direct conversion of the temperature differnces... This is my proposal if you wish to take a stab at it.

Offline sparks

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 02:27:52 PM »
    Now imagine cutting out the compressor all together.  Heat is described as the amount of mass velocity per given spacial dimension.  On a molecular scale this is very randomized.  Imagine a pipe buried in the ground but it is filled with ionized gas.  The gas absorbs the heat from the ground and the molecules start to thrash around.   Now the gas is slowly circulated through a chamber where an external field causes the gas to go from randomized motion to a unified motion.  This guided motion causes them to bombard a solar panel.
   Back down to the ground to get stirred up again.

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 02:27:52 PM »
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Offline Xaverius

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2008, 08:11:57 PM »
[quote author=infringer link=topic=5588.msg127237#msg127237 date=122187892)
This dicussion is downright interesting in theory for conceptual proof of the exsistance of OU but beyond that I cannot think of a way to harness the excess power in a way that would prove fruitful... If you find a way heck let us know.
[/quote]

It may be possible to harness this energy with the use of cryogenics.  A SuperCooled heat sink would provide a large differential for a large heat transfer. The available heat could be used to power a thermionic circuit.  These circuits are presently 40% efficient at most, but with a COP of 5 you could double the power output as compared to input.  These systems are very expensive, high maintenance and dangerous but like everything else, safety is enhanced and expense is lowered with widespread use, mass production.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2008, 10:33:20 PM »
Everybody, my idea is not about extracting energy out from the temperature of our planet. That is not what I am talking about here, even if it would be a practical and economic solution to both our energy consumtion problem and our global warming problem( even if we ain't causing it). My convincing comes out from the view that we are not at all extracting energy from the heat itself when we use the heat pump, but only the potential it creates for us freely. I strongly belive that we are talking about two different energies here, and that one of them affects the other (the higher the total temperature is, the more capacity there is in the system and thus more energy to be potentiolized).

We say that a heat pump moves heat, but in reality what it does is that it seperates heat into temperature potentials, and it does it with an efficiency of 3 to 5, if we don't take into account the hidden source of energy which is necessary to make this into a system of unity (every system is in a state of unity if you account for every form of energy which is generated and wasted, my oppinion at least).

There is no reason to why we would need an external temperature source to make this system last forever (until brakedown), it dosn't convert heat into energy, it only converts the heat potential into energy, therefore the differance in potential inside say a box filled with air of  a certain temperature would change and eventually be used up, but the total temperature in that box wouldn't change, as a matter of fact it would steadly increase bacause of friction which is inevitable in any real system.

Even if this isn't a very practical system, it uses the commonly overlooked ability of a heat pump to make a potential for less energy than what that potential would give if you then used it to do work. It is something that seems to be impossible for our days scientists to explain, even if it was invented allmost a century ago...

So my idea isn't new at all, I am just extremely interested in this 'phenoman' of a common heat pump, and if anyone could sucessfully build a unit demonstrating it working that would have been amazing, even though if it aint very practical.
I  have myself been thinking on building one of Shaubergers devices to create an unlimited supply of electricity, allthough it will use the heat in the air and convert it into a higher kinetic energy in the swirling water, and in a very efficient conversion too!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2008, 10:33:20 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2008, 02:46:34 AM »
Well dont think of victors device post away contain links ...

Get the party started already :P


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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2008, 09:13:04 AM »
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Offline nitinnun

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2009, 10:37:13 PM »
resistance BY ITSELF, causes heat.

that is why a heat pump generates more heat, than electricity is creating.
because the heat pump moved around temperature with resistance, and this resistance creates heat.


resistance causes heat,
and heat causes resistance.

EXACTLY like a magnetic field causes electricity,
and electricity causes a magnetic field.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2009, 02:11:09 AM »
resistance BY ITSELF, causes heat.

that is why a heat pump generates more heat, than electricity is creating.
because the heat pump moved around temperature with resistance, and this resistance creates heat.


resistance causes heat,
and heat causes resistance.

EXACTLY like a magnetic field causes electricity,
and electricity causes a magnetic field.

Yes resistance causes heat, and heat most often increases resistance (at least electrically), but that is not why the heat pump have a COP of 3-5!
I you were to go and try to explain somebody that the reason to why their heat pump makes so much heat is that it first create heat, which than creates friction, which then makes heat and continues infinitely, you would be regarded as a wacko. Not trying to be rude;)
But that equation doesn't add up, and it is not friction which allows this system to have such high efficiency.
If your try to create heat out of friction you need energy, and you will not get more heat than the energy put in, and resistance in a wire is also a form of friction (for the electrons).

The short and simple way to explain it is by saying that the heat pump compresses and therefore heats a volume of air which originally was room temperature (we start with that).
Because the air is so hot it then gives of much of the heat to its uninsulated environment, which heats it up.
Then when the air has almost reached room temperature again, it expands by going through a pressure valve which lowers both the pressure and the temperature. Than it is lead through a room temperature environment which it sucks the heat from, thereby adding heat to the air, which then in the end will be compressed and sent to the heated room or chamber.

So its not based on friction but on a dynamic change between temperature and pressure, while exploiting the difference between the two.
Where the extra energy comes from is still hard to answer, but the process still does what it does, and that is also the reason to why so many million homes uses it has their source of both heat and cooling.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:27:05 AM by Nabo00o »

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2009, 04:53:59 PM »
Guys (and gals :D ), this is a more practical way of doing it: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3383-self-running-ambient-heat-engine.html

And still I ain't quite sure if the energy comes from the outside temperature, in my mind the potential itself is free, but the outside air is the 'medium'. There's a difference.
Here comes the good stuff, a way to use air pressure to create more pressure, its like a heat pump, only that it is made to create high pressure, and uses sharp gradients to make the effect happen!

Index: http://www.aircaraccess.com/index.htm

The technique: http://www.aircaraccess.com/equalizer.htm

A motor using the effect: http://www.aircaraccess.com/nealtank.htm

And tons of pdf files on pneumatics, specifically about free energy:
http://aircaraccess.com/requests1.htm


Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 02:36:46 AM »
I don't know if this should be posted here, it probably needs a new tread (or an entire topic).
But it seems that the heat pump along with so many other inventions uses the same type of technique to generate more energy out of its incoming (physical) energy, and it is the principle of asymmetry.

To you who have heard of Alexander V. Frolov, this might probably make more sense, but time and time reversal effects is actually involved here, and in all other processes which changes the symmetrical interactions between time and space. This is actually what free energy (real free energy) is all about, of course true over unity does not exist because it literally means more in than out (total)!

This is just a hint to you if any of you want to know more about why this works and why current and power consumption in reality is not necessary to power any of our machines and lights.
Also, this will probably not work for complete materialists  ;D ;D ;D

 

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