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Author Topic: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)  (Read 62768 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« on: September 19, 2008, 11:56:03 AM »
As I have looked around the forum for a while it seems like this problem (or blessing) with standard heat systems have not been discussed here yet. The problem is, that as we all know, a standard heatpump gives much more heat for the money than by using pure resisting heating. But why is this? When we are talking about a high efficiency heat pump, there is to be as little heat as possible created in the circuit, the main point is that heat is moved and compressed, so that we can use the temperature potential differance between the sink and the source. But energy is not removed to were the energy is moved, instead a higher potential is seemingly created allmost out of nothing, as the COP of the heatpump usualy is from 3 to 4 (times as much heat as eneergy put in).

But how can this be, I'd would like some open-minded replies to explain this phenomenan :)

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Offline spinner

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 02:21:53 PM »
Heat pumps are exactly what their name says.

A thermodynamic system where one of the inputs is electricity (to drive a compressor, pumps ventillators, circuitry,...) AND the other input is HEAT, pumped out from some other place  (ambient air, river, soil, solar, geothermal, ...,...).

Heat pump output (like central heating) "appears" to be several times more efficient, if one looks just an input of electricity. If boiler is heated with a 4kW heat pump with a CoP of 4, this device uses 1 kW of electricity AND 3kW of heat from some other place...

Needless to say, the source (from where the heat is pumped out) is cooling down (extraction of heat). But who cares if - e.g. the river flowing nearby gets cooler for a 0,001 deg?

P.S. check out the operation of a refridgerator in your kitchen. It's the same.
Some nasty people say this is the only "FE" device widely used....
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 02:48:44 PM by spinner »

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 03:45:12 PM »
@Nabo00o,.
Also, see this topic:
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5452.msg124249.html#msg124249
and specifically reply #10.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 03:45:12 PM »
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Offline ChileanOne

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 06:57:05 PM »
Heat pumps are exactly what their name says.

A thermodynamic system where one of the inputs is electricity (to drive a compressor, pumps ventillators, circuitry,...) AND the other input is HEAT, pumped out from some other place  (ambient air, river, soil, solar, geothermal, ...,...).

Heat pump output (like central heating) "appears" to be several times more efficient, if one looks just an input of electricity. If boiler is heated with a 4kW heat pump with a CoP of 4, this device uses 1 kW of electricity AND 3kW of heat from some other place...

Needless to say, the source (from where the heat is pumped out) is cooling down (extraction of heat). But who cares if - e.g. the river flowing nearby gets cooler for a 0,001 deg?

P.S. check out the operation of a refridgerator in your kitchen. It's the same.
Some nasty people say this is the only "FE" device widely used....

Hello Spinner:

The FE confusion arises, I think, from the fact that environmental heat is as free as sun and/or wind, but, I agree that this is far from being OU in the sense "we FE woo woos" understand OU.

The National Institute of Oceanic Technology (NIOT) from India has developped a process called "Low temperature thermal desalination" (LTTD) based on the Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) technology, that uses the same principle of taking massive amounts of heat from the environment to generate distilled water. From the economic point of view, you use 180 watts of commercial electric energy (basically to pump sea water and create a partial vaccum chamber with a vaccum pump) to generate 1 cubic meter of distilled water. The process also takes around 36 Kw in the form of environmental heat for every cubic meter of water produced, but nobody has to pay for it, hence is "free".  If you compare the economic energy cost of this process with the current main technology used for desalination (Reverse Osmosis) that uses an average of 3,5 Kw of electric energy (to pump the water at high pressure through the membranes) per each cubic meter of water produced, you can see that the LTTD is far more convenient.

I doubt that anyone would really miss the environmental heat, that ultimately comes from solar energy, as long as the sun shines in the sky.

Regards.



Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 08:05:00 PM »
I agree that when you use a heat pump and get so much more energy out than what you used it is because the energy (the heat) is collected from the outside enviroment (like a river), thus making it cooler. But that coolness is really extra energy............. ;)
Don't you agree that if you seperate an ambient temperature into two different potentials, either a cooler one or a hotter one, you have an extra source of energy. Because as you well know a sterling engine can effectivly use both cooler and warmer than normal temperature to turn its wheel. And what a heat pump is doing is that it seperates and creates a higher temperature potential than what a normal 100% efficient heat element can, and twise again because the coolness can also be used as energy. This is what it does, that's what the COP 3-4 stands for, even though if you are told that it simply "extracts" it from somewere else, the energy is added, and it does not comply with a normal thermal dynamic system, its FAR over unity.

Think about it. The first thing you would say is that "the energy is extracted from a source thus the source gets cooler". Well, than you have not only added extra energy in your system, but you have also added an extra input of energy in the source (even though if its cooled and seems like it has lost energy).

And the point to all of this is, you could make a complete "closed" and isolated enviroment, were there was no input of temperature energy, only electricity, and you could have generated a higher output of electricity out because you had combined the heat pump with a stirling engine, which is great at converting heat to mechanical energy, which then could have turned a generator.

Since all that a heat pump does is to seperate the temperature, and all that a stirling engine does is to recombine it (elimenating the potential), the total temperature of that enviroment would neither increase or decrease (if you look away from friction). Still, the "magic" of the heat pump will remain, and will have its COP at something like 6 or 7, but the total efficiency of the system would go far beyond unity (if you look away from the backround potential which is the real power behind the motion).

This is what I wanted the people who looked at this topic to think about, were am I wrong?
Tell me, and especially you who are certain that the second law of thermodynamics cannot be broken.
If you are wrong, this could be the experiment that would prove with a straight-forward guide to how to be build, that the laws of thermodynamics is far away from the truth.

Hope sombody bothers to look through this ;)

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 08:05:00 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2008, 04:48:40 AM »
This has been featured as a discussion in countless videos and articles like this one...

And I believe it is one of the reasons why people are deeply rooted in finding other forms of overunity in exsistance as well...

I cannot fully explain where the extra energy comes from myself but it is outstanding that there is yet proof of OU...

For power generation I do not know you would have to find a way to directly convert the excess energy from one form to another without loss to harness the potential gain... And have a means of storing it.

This dicussion is downright interesting in theory for conceptual proof of the exsistance of OU but beyond that I cannot think of a way to harness the excess power in a way that would prove fruitful... If you find a way heck let us know.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2008, 12:58:34 PM »
This has been featured as a discussion in countless videos and articles like this one...

And I believe it is one of the reasons why people are deeply rooted in finding other forms of overunity in exsistance as well...

I cannot fully explain where the extra energy comes from myself but it is outstanding that there is yet proof of OU...

For power generation I do not know you would have to find a way to directly convert the excess energy from one form to another without loss to harness the potential gain... And have a means of storing it.

This dicussion is downright interesting in theory for conceptual proof of the exsistance of OU but beyond that I cannot think of a way to harness the excess power in a way that would prove fruitful... If you find a way heck let us know.

Well, I do not really care about were the energy is coming from, but as we all know, the heat pump does create a higher temperature potential, it in fact decreases entropy in the closed sytem which means excess energy. And how to use it? By tapping it in the way I just described. There is excess heat potential, we use that potential to power a stearling enegine, mabye with an efficiency of 70% (if we are good), then the sterling engine is connected to a generator, again mabye with an efficience of 70%.
But that is good enough to create an excess amount of electricity, and of course, if we got enough we could probably send an ammount of that electricity back to the heatpump, thereby making it selfsubstained.

Of course, I know that this is more of a theoretical topic than a working model topic, but I think the practical bit is allready done, we only need to hook them up together, and then we could see if my logic was right.
I just find it to hard to let such an incredible opportunity go away just because there is some confusion about this subject. I don't think anyone can disprove the fact that the heatpump creates an extra, real energy potential which can be used to power whatever is in our mind. The logic about it doesn't work, there is nowhere in the process that it extracts energy from an existing physical source, it only increases the total temperature potential with far less joules of energy than what would be possible with a normal 100% efficient heat conversion.

I think it is when the theory is clear that people should work together to make a practical model which exploits those new boundries. I am not a extremely good mechanic myself, but I hope that somebody who is and mabye allready have access to the equipment needed could at least look into this area.

Also, what I think would be much more efficient than using electricity to power the heatpump would be to use the stirling engine to directly power the heatpump (rotating the turbine for example and cutting away the electricity conversion inefficiencies), and then with the excess temperature gradient, power the stirling engine again.
This could prove to be a little bit harder to get working than by using electricity, as everything must work perfectly for the selfsubstaining effect to occur.






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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2008, 12:58:34 PM »
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Offline Yucca

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2008, 03:31:37 PM »
Heatpumps are IMHO definitely law breakers. To speak of "harvesting" ambient energy is misleading, if you create a thermal gradient then you have created a potential which, as naboo says, can then be used to do further work with stirling engine etc.

I think the answer to why this happens has to do with asymetric carnot cycles, that is, with repeated slow compression and fast decompression (has to be tuned) of a substance one can increase the overall energy of a system, the influx of energy that causes the net increase appears to be "free" energy and for all sakes of argument it is indeed free. The griggs hydrosonic pump breaks the laws in the same manner using slower decompression and rapid recompression due to cavitation, for the naysayers; these systems have been verified to break thermodynamic laws by universities, if one could efficiently turn the heat back into mechanical energy then a Griggs HSP would self run.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 01:14:14 AM »
www.larbombas.pt/ing/energie/central_heating.html    this is the basic machine , a panel heat pump with a great C.O.P.( french inventor:Jacques Bernier)

now optimizing the mechanical parts :
www.eats.ltd.uk/heating_cooling.html   they improve the pump/compressor efficiency , probably internal  like Talon/RMS

now , to improve the pump/compressor drive :
www.ismogen.com or
www.trinitymotors.net
www.thegreenmotor.com       sntech

Let us estimate now , all in one, a C.O.P. of 10.

Now we need, for the reciproke process an efficient heat engine :
http://us.geocities.com/cosbytech

This is called " an ambient cycle" , I think so !

CdL


« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 01:45:35 AM by lancaIV »

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 01:14:14 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2008, 04:53:13 AM »
As far as the sterling engine with that efficantcy good luck...

In my readings trying to even locate a stirling engine plan that was even close to cutting the mustard I found you will not find a plan without someone who charges an arm and a leg for there book...

I also made a mental note that most all sterling engines are very inefficiant as well in plenty of articles...

I cannot make any promises but if you can even find a free stirling design that is worth a damn that will help worlds and worlds...

I can not locate anything other then small scale models nothing that will even put out 1KW which is like the smallest generators the gas guys sell...

I would like to see real solid plans for the manufacture of a stirling engine that will run solid and produce at least 5KW of power and 10KW would be ideal...

If you can find that alone that would make me more then happy...

Cosby Technologies Why the cheesy website to premote such a product? Something spells not such a wise thing to depend on using a yahoo website to friggin host this surely there are free webhosts which do not place any ads on the users websites... Poor choice.

-infringer-

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2008, 01:43:11 PM »
Yes, that's really the main problem with this setup, how to find a sterling engine capeable of handling power up in the kilowatt scale. I think I have seen some quite big ones on youtube, with a lot of tourqe, and powered by candle lights ;)
But that's the thing tough, that the practiality of this system isn't all that good yet, even if the concept seems to be correct.
I'd just wish some big manufacturer could build a powerplant with a heatpump as the source of energy, I guess you could allways have used a lot of small motors instead of a big one, that way it would at least function....

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2008, 01:43:11 PM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2008, 05:20:39 PM »
Mister Thomas Cosby is an"Oldtimer", if he is alive, in the middle eigthies-
and not a webpage-freak !
I would estimate that this us.geocities-page is from the end-90´.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5626459&F=0

        Amplitude:      80 degrees Fahrenheit ~ 32 degrees Celsius

Sincerely
             CdL

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 09:30:24 AM »
I hope I'm not a "Naysayer" in this instance, but in a "Closed" system, cooler is LESS energy.

So, even though a Heat pump can have a "COP" of 4 (I think that's around average now..), the
heat IS coming from the external source.  The easiest way to see this is put the heat pump
"Pickup" cores into an enviroment where the temp is below the evaporation point of the working
fluid, as it is used in what type of pump.  At that temp, the COP is <1.  The extra energy is
coming from the enviroment, usually by evaporation, and the compressor just converts the
"Gas" back to liquid.

This is a seperate concept than more efficient pumps, motors, turbines or whatever, and so I
can't properly mention them, other than to discount them for this specific application.  Here is
the bottom line, as far as a True Closed system, with no Heat in or out.  If you have a 100%
efficient sterling engine, driving a heat pump, creating the heat difference for the engine, this
will run down from friction losses eventually.   Any energy drawn from the system will actually
drop the overall tempurature of the system until there is not enough heat left to operate.

Sorry, but that is a very old arguement, long ago proven, but don't take my word for it.  That
was actually a MAJOR teaching point in my 7th grade physics class.  (Too many decades
ago for me to count...)  Any part of the process that could be enhanced to OU operation is
a whole different story, but to counter the title, the "Heatpump" is just that.  It Pumps "HEAT".
Nothing more or less.  A Pump that drew 0 power, other than motion loss replacement, would
still not be OU from a system point.  The Heat, or Energy, that it puts out is Pumped, not created,
or generated in any way.

My last blurb.  If anyone can come up with a way to Pump heat, AND produce power at the same
time, from the PUMP itself, then you have made an OU device, as well as perpetual motion.  More
complexity won't help, only make things worse.  However, here's where it gets good.  The electric
company used to offer heat pump assists for the water heater in your home.  The problem was, they
would draw heat from the basement, or whatever room you mounted the unit it.  What comes to my
mind is, and was, what if you wanted to Air condition that room?  (Strangely, you can't get them
anymore.  Geee,   I wonder why...)

Art.

No, you are not a naysayer :)
But also, 'no', you are wrong.
In our closed system, energy can be more than one thing.
Energy can be the heated atoms which hold more energy the more heat they have stored in them, or which keeps them in high motion.
That's the view which makes all those arguments people have against a heatpump's extraordinary efficiency to hold true. Then there is no extra efficiency, just a movment of heat.
But the other energy potential which is of much greater importance to me is the temperature potential between any gradient of heat.
Be it extremely cold and a little warmer, or extremely hot and a little colder, (or even wamrer), the energy lies in the differance between the two temperatures, and we can collect that energy and normally does with stirling engine because its made to do just that.

Now, in this instance cold is energy, because coolness add's a temperature potential. Now, a heatmpump does just that, it creates a higher potential differance for a lesser input of energy. It is allready far overunity, in my mind at least.

And if you used the heatpump in the simple configuration that I suggested the room or isolated box wouldn't begin to cool down as the energy was tapped. Since we both create a heat and cold potential from the heat pump we use both in the stirling engine, and what is the stirling engine doing with the potential? It ballances it out so that there is no more energy potential in the room, only a little more hotter since some energy was lost in the heat pump's conversion inefficiencies between electrical and mechanical work.

Now is that wrong, does the coolness not relate to a energy potential if you use it to move air and mechanical parts?
Isn't it even just only coolness that is needed to drive a special made stirling engine that could run on ice-chunks, as am sure you can find it if you search the tube. Also of course, it can not run on the coolness alone, just as it can not run on heat alone. It needs a temperature differance between two levels and the heat pump creates that, for much less energy input than a 100% efficient electrical heater would (if you look at the potential it creates).

Again, this is a subject which is controversial, but I think I have made this topic clear enough so that people can realize the error in the views they have had about the heat pump's incredible efficiency. Again, where am I wrong? I'd like to hear your reply.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 01:58:37 PM »
You know, I think this whole subject bout the heat pump has become over complicated. It could be made much easier to comprehend by using simple statments to what it does and why it does it.
But first I must try to answer some of your questions:

Quote
You are describing the "Difference" in temperature as being an energy source?  Come on....
ANY difference in "Potential", weather it's velocity, EMF, Mag Fields, or temperature is where
we get ALL of or energy, so that whole concept is well defined.

Yes, but strangely enough people seems to forget that fact when they talk about the real efficiency of an heat pump, and instead only talks about the heat energy which is moved back and forth, which then of course will not give any more energy or potential.

Quote
Lets start at the beginning.  There is no such thing as a truly closed system.....
....      and THAT is what true research on FE and OU is all about.
Sorry for the cut down there, but YES, of course I agree!
That's the whole point with overunity and free energy research, energy is never created, its only collected and transformed from other sources, and to put it easly, when that source is outside of you system, or if its not accounted for in you system, then that system will ALLWAYS be a open system. Of course all systems that exists anywere in the universe is an open system, since they all interact with each other and dynamically exchange their energies with each other.

Quote
Start the
heatpump, and you  can move the heat around, creating the potential difference.  The difference
will contain the amount of energy that you put into it from the power to the heatpump.  Even if the
Sterling gets ALL of the difference and converts it, you will find that what you got out, assuming
100% transfer (Yeah, right...) is exactly what you put in.  With a fully closed system, you could
possibly put in 500Joules of power and keep circulating it around for a Loooong time, put as soon
as you pull that power back out, the potential difference will start to drop and at 500Joules out, you
will have no more potential difference anymore.

If we say that this is the heat pump/sterling engine in a box setup, than what you are saying completely wrong!
This sentence right here:
Quote
The difference will contain the amount of energy that you put into it from the power to the heatpump.
This is wrong, because that's exactly the power of a heat pump over existing technology, "it moves the heat for less energy than necessary to generate the heat". It creates a higher temperature potential by moving the heat than what would be possible by generating it in a common heat-producing process. The potential is allready higher in this box, in the normal COP of 3-4. Out of nothing, well no, it could come from anywhere. The point is that this is where we have our main conflict, and I am sure one of us will be able to agree with the other if we are both open to new ideas and able admitt ones mistakes. At least I hope I am :)

Quote
I realize that I cannot convince everybody, nor will I try, but the fun example is this.  A Free heatpump,
which does exist and is in use.  Simple design and uses gravity for it's power source.  Seems like
that is a free energy source, but it's actually using gravity.  How that conversion affects the system
is unknown to me, but it's still not a free energy device, due to that gravity input that is required.  In
case you have never heard about them, here is the simple version, but they come in many more forms
and have been commercially available for over 30 years in the manufacturing industry.  Imagine a tube,
say 1 Meter long.   Place this upright and fill with a liquid that evaporates at low temp.  Make sure
this tube has hollow fins on all sides, both inside and out, and remove air,etc, then seal the thing.

Hehe, I know this one. Its the drinking bird. There's some funny videos of it on youtube.
It's a little bit interesting, since it seems to be able to move itself more relative to gravity because of the condensing fluid's pathway upwards towards the sky. I don't so much about it that I can say anything for sure, allthough I have seen one model were a guy have made a big wheel with about 4 or 8 cylinders on it. It moves very slowly but has a lot of horsepower....

Quote
In any pure heat conversion, once 0K is reached, the system stops.

Yes and this is where the heat pump is different. I does not generate heat, it only moves heat, and its really not the same thing.
Mabye you could say that its like moving the boundries of the system relative to other systems in order to make them interact ....;)

Quote
Now for the other end.  There is no-way that we are quickly going to remove all the heat from the Earth
in a short period of time, so there IS a tremendous source of energy right below out feet.  Tapping and
using this is easier that you would think, and devices to do it are readily available.  I'm certain of the
reasons that they are not in more common use, and that has to do with energy control, etc., but it
STILL would not be "FE" or "OU" in the overall sense.  Still, it would look great on paper and would
take a long time to turn the Earth into an Ice Cube.  Sure, we could then reheat with other energy forms
and matter-energy conversion, but that's a different set of concepts and wouldn't make any of the
Heatpump setups OU.  Now, if you could create a unit that produces more heat than power input,
WITHOUT pumping it from another source, there is OU and FE, but then you don't have a heatpump.
Now you have a heat generator.  Different concept.   Just like a fridge, the heat out comes from the
heat in the items put in the fridge, and the losses in the compressor, etc.  Not from no-where.

The heat pump will not create any exess heat if you just let the potential inside the box or whatever to equall itself out again. Then the usable potential will have been removed just as much as it had been created by the pump. However, if you let the cop 4 temperature potential created inside the box to be used by a stirling engine, so that the heat and cold does not get in the extremes (as the higher the difference between the source and the sink is, the lower the efficiency is), then you could use the extra potential created  and for example create more heat via mechanical interactions.

So this is basically were it stands for me, and I belive I have told you were the errors in your assumtions are made (from my view of course).

I hope I have not bored you away from this forum forever.....

Offline infringer

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Re: The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2008, 01:14:38 AM »
Art you are most likely correct but is any system truley a closed system there is minute effects from the enviorment in every system everything has a decay life as well so the universe is doomed eventually unless galaxies reincarnate go from energy to matter once again ...

It is my belief that energy is never lost and neither is matter it is shifted from one form back to the other.

But that is just a belief and a whole nother topic...

But the goal here is electricity no matter how scientific if they roll like every thing is supposed to roll in 2010 you shall only pay 10cents a watt for solar...
Granted that is an estimate based on mass production. But for about a grand or a little better a household could be energy dependandt lets say two grand...

Personally the best option I believe is to store energy as hho or hydrogen and use the excess for cloudy days...

That will cost more but... I think hydrogen then will be the cleanest alternative that this world has seen and will be a niche. If i had to bet money on our free energy future thats where I would say its at.

-infringer-

 

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