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## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: KoenL on October 26, 2005, 04:41:22 PM

Title: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: KoenL on October 26, 2005, 04:41:22 PM
Alright Stefan, mainly because you requested it, but
also for others to ponder, here is my recent Bessler Wheel
design.

Of course it is based on descriptions of and clues about the functioning
of the apparatus by Bessler, his king and some eyewitnesses.
Some of the most remarkable of these are his kings note that the inner
workings of the wheel were very simple, that they consisted of nothing
more than weights, levers and springs/strings, and that he was himself
baffled by the simplicity of the device when he was finally allowed a look
at the mechanism. Other clear clues are Besslers hints that 1) the wheel
uses at least 6 and preferably 8 or more equal weights, 2) the weights work
in pairs, and 3) the 'punctus quietus', point of balance, should never be reached
by the weights because of their own actions. Witnesses have reported hearing
about 8 bangs eacht rotation, on the rim of the wheel, on the side where it
moves down, and being shown a lead weight with fixture holes on the sides by
Bessler, and hearing a string or spring make its typical sound when it slipped
as Bessler attempted to reattach the weight.
Most will probably know these things.

Anyway, I was just doodling around, sketching different versions of an extremely
simple arrangement based on Besslers clues, when I came across one design
that seemed interesting. A quick and dirty calculation appeared to show a
permantent imbalance to one side... Later, a slightly less dirty but still not
reliable calculation seemed to bring the average point of gravity a little closer
to the point of balance (meaning in a vertical line with the wheels axle), but still
offset to one side...
A much more elaborate calculation was started but never finished, so I cannot be certain yet.

I hereby present to all of you a digital version of my sketched design.
I welcome any and all reactions, and invite any of you who are interested
to show why it will or will not work. I've decided to await reactions, but am
considering to construct a test version with something easy like Lego Technic
or Meccano or something like that... Unless one of you guys points out why it
can't work and I am convinced of course. ;-)

Caller number one? ;-)

Note to all: this is my design, if anyone wants to replicate this design in any form,
contact me. Also, for additional info or explanation, you may contact me.

Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 26, 2005, 05:08:14 PM
Hi Koen,
where are the springs in this design ?
Do they connect every 2 weights ?
I think springs are a MUST for a Bessler design,
cause you have to store the potential energy in
them , so if a weight has gone down, it could be
pulled up againin the next cycle and the trick must be
to just shift the lever arms with the weights to one side and
store the movement of the weights energywise in springs,
so that the wheel turns to one side and afterwards pulls
up the weights again via the springs so the cycle can begin again.

Have you tried to draw this design in 5 degrees steps and see,
if there are steps, where you have no imbalance or a negative
torque ?
Normally some designs like this have positive and negative
torque steps and the result overall is zero.

Maybe you can test it in MW2D simulation program ?

This is a pretty easy and very powerfull programm for
these tests.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: snpssaini on October 26, 2005, 06:04:03 PM
Hi koenl,

Sorry for that but it will not work.

Thanks

Sanjay Saini
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 26, 2005, 06:04:38 PM
Sanjay, why ?
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: AgingYoung on October 26, 2005, 06:59:09 PM
KoenL,

I think this wheel would turn with a slight modification.  If you could focus an anti-gravity ray on the weight that's attached to 6 o'clock and hold that beam on it as it moves to the 7:30 position then it will turn.  After closing my eyes and running a sim I've concluded that's the range where the punctus gets quite quietus.

Some don't want to employ anti-gravity rays in their design because of the large power consumption.  An alternative would be to hire an unemployed frenchman.  For a mere bagel and a cheap bottle of merlot you should be able to keep this wheel turning for a shift (8 hours).

A. Gene Young

ps:  The design of this wheel is identical in principle to a wheel discussed on a BesslerWheel.com thread with the difference being how the weights are forced to the center.  In this wheel the weights are forced by weights on their opposite sides sliding horizontally to pull the bottom weights up a vertical.  On the BesslerWheel.com thread the weights were moved up a ramp.  I'd be willing to pay shipping and handling and \$5K for a wheel of this sort with a 15kw output.  Let me know when you start production.  I would want one sans-frenchman.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Jim_Mich on October 26, 2005, 07:48:52 PM
I tested it using WM2D and the weights end up settling to the bottom, which is what I expected.

Jim_Mich
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 26, 2005, 09:22:39 PM
Hi Jim,
did you use springs for the green lines ?

Please try again using springs for the green coupling lines.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Jim_Mich on October 26, 2005, 10:13:54 PM
The green lines were rods.

I changed them to springs and got similar results, except the weights bounce around. I even tried giving the wheel a push start which I show below.

I've modeled hundreds of wheels using WM2D. If you use springs then you need to use some type of control or latch, otherwise the weight just oscilate chaotically. Unfortunatly latches are very hard to program into WM2D.

Jim_Mich
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 26, 2005, 11:07:54 PM
Hi Jim,
you forgot in both designs, that these weights are in a triangle case
and at 9 o?clock they can only stay horizontal on the triangle
case wall !
Can you program something like this into WM2D ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Jim_Mich on October 27, 2005, 12:10:56 AM
Similar results with a triangle case.

Jim_Mich
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 27, 2005, 01:52:52 AM
Hi Jim,
many thanks for the update.
But nowit seems the rubberbands are too short, if you look up
the original drawing from Koen...
Hmm..
Sometimes minimal design changes can make abig difference in the outcome...

I am still looking for my old w2d design file for my single spring and weight
oscillator fixed to a wheel, Jim, maybe if you know WM2D very well you could
give it a try. There still must only be assigned the right spring constant and the right masses
to wheel and to the weight and then it will probably accelerate all the time.
I am just not finding it anymore on my harddrive.
It was once also in the files section of free-energyof yahoogroups, but I also
deleted it there for space reasons...

Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Jim_Mich on October 27, 2005, 02:14:24 PM
I tried a number of different spring tensions and also giving the wheel a push start either direction. With stronger springs the weights stayed lifted. With weaker springs they tended to rest on the bottom. Changing the tension rate caused the weights to move very little or bounce around lively.

It is very difficult to use freely oscillating springs or pendulums on a wheel. The oscilation patterns constantly change and get out of sync with the wheel rotation. They need something to keep them syncronized.

This wheel just will not work.

Jim_Mich
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: snpssaini on October 27, 2005, 03:43:43 PM
Hi Koen,
where are the springs in this design ?
Do they connect every 2 weights ?
I think springs are a MUST for a Bessler design,
cause you have to store the potential energy in
them , so if a weight has gone down, it could be
pulled up againin the next cycle and the trick must be
to just shift the lever arms with the weights to one side and
store the movement of the weights energywise in springs,
so that the wheel turns to one side and afterwards pulls
up the weights again via the springs so the cycle can begin again.

Have you tried to draw this design in 5 degrees steps and see,
if there are steps, where you have no imbalance or a negative
torque ?
Normally some designs like this have positive and negative
torque steps and the result overall is zero.

Maybe you can test it in MW2D simulation program ?

This is a pretty easy and very powerfull programm for
these tests.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Hartiberlin,

Will you please tell me how can I make a Gaint wheel (ride) with the help of MW2D simulation program.
I want to check my machine .

Regards

Sanjay Saini
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on October 27, 2005, 11:22:13 PM
Good luck !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: KoenL on October 28, 2005, 02:06:45 AM
Hi everyone, sorry I'vee been so long, having major connection problems here...

Anyway, I thought I had included a clearer description of the wheel,
but apparently not; this has given rise to all kinds of speculation like
springs and such.

Legend/description of pic KoensBesslerDesign12.jpg:
The gray circle obviously is the main wheel, which is fixed on an axle.
The grey square is just an aid for drawing purposes, has nothing to do
with the wheel design.
On the rim of the wheel, spaced at equal distances, hinges are attached, onto
which rods (black) are fixed. On the end of each rod is a weight (red ball),
and another hinge (not drawn). Another, larger, rod (blueish) connects each
opposing pair of smaller (black) rods. So for example, the rod with weight fixed
to the 12o'clock hinge on the wheels rim is connected to the rod&weight which
is fixed to the 6o'clock hinge, by the large dark blue rod.
This hinged connection allows the weights a certain degree of freedom to swing,
but it also disallows them to swing in just any direction; some of them are
obstructed in their movement by the wheels rim itself. Note that this means the
smaller rods&weights must be able to collide with and rest on the inside of the
wheels rim.
There are not springs at all. All the rods are solid, and hinged on both ends.
That doesn't mean you can't try to use springs of course, that's up to you... ;-)

I have not tested it still, so I can't be sure...
But in any case it's not possible for "all the weights to end up settling to the bottom",
because they're fixed to the wheels rim...
The entire concept is that these rigid hinged connections allow only enough freedom
of motion for the weights to swing +/- 90deg in one direction and back, but don't
allow them to move in the opposite direction.
unless that's not what you meant...

I have not simulated it but in mind and on paper, so perhaps I should simulate it sometime...
What's a good and easy program for it, you think?

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: SeaWasp on November 08, 2005, 02:54:17 PM
Weights which are interconnected at opposite ends will not work. If the wheel turns clockwise, the weights from the 12 to 2 oclock position with the help of gravity, will transfer their load to the weights on the ascending side. making it that much more harder to rotate the wheel.
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: lmzxc on March 19, 2006, 07:20:42 AM
Hi Koen,

Included with this reply is a picture of a drawing that I made

With best regards, lmzxc
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: lmzxc on March 19, 2006, 09:38:55 AM
Hi Koen,

Included with this reply is another picture of a drawing

With best regards, lmzxc
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hopeful on March 19, 2006, 09:31:03 PM
Please note the positions of your motive weights and those of the classic MT1 drawing: www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Gregory on May 07, 2006, 07:21:03 PM
Hi all!

Perhaps this is not the best place for my question,
But can somebody show me a link or any other way, where I can download a WM2D 6.0 or 7.0 ?

I have many interesting ideas of wheels, but with the WM2D demo i can't save my work. It's really annoying. I need to save them...
I've seen a lot of drawings of other people, and every time I look at one, I usually see at first sight they don't work.
I have some ideas how to make better wheels, and I want to test all of them, but need a WM2D wich can save projects.

Thank you,

Greg
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: acp on May 07, 2006, 08:21:50 PM
Quote
Hi all!

Perhaps this is not the best place for my question,
But can somebody show me a link or any other way, where I can download a WM2D 6.0 or 7.0 ?

I have many interesting ideas of wheels, but with the WM2D demo i can't save my work. It's really annoying. I need to save them...
I've seen a lot of drawings of other people, and every time I look at one, I usually see at first sight they don't work.
I have some ideas how to make better wheels, and I want to test all of them, but need a WM2D wich can save projects.

Thank you,

Greg

http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/ (http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/)
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: lmzxc on August 13, 2006, 04:26:47 AM
Hi Koen,

Included with this reply are pictures of drawings

With best regards, lmzxc
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: hartiberlin on August 13, 2006, 04:24:26 PM

http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/ (http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/)

a password was once posted on the besslerwheel forum,
but I don?t find it now, or they have removed it...
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: Gregory on August 16, 2006, 10:33:50 PM
Thanks,
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: lmzxc on November 06, 2006, 11:17:28 PM
Included with this reply are pictures of drawings

With best regards, lmzxc

Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: gannigal on November 22, 2006, 06:50:51 PM
hi there:
very interesting diagram. But will it work?. As it is i think it will not. But if make some modifications and use levers and springs(as you have said) then it will work. And it will take time, maybe years but it can be done . D`ont you think so???.
I am trying it myself, with different mechanisms but same principle. One day we will mke it. And if we cannot succed then someone else will. My diagram shows eight weights that are connected and can move to different directions at the same time. But I am finding it difficult to make the springs work. Springs are a must to make the wheel gain power and the mechanism doesnt stop its cycle. I think the springs have to connected to the shaft and their work is to pull back the wieghts close to the centre to make the wheel always imbalanced.
Well we will give it a try and then we will see what happens. This is all trail and error and it takes time.
Gannigal
Title: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: lmzxc on January 16, 2013, 08:56:02 PM
Everything in top picture rotates except for adjustable guide (3).  Handle (6) in bottom picture is for moving adjustable guide (3) to cause wheel (4) to rotate left or to rotate right or to stop rotating.

Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: norman6538 on January 17, 2013, 01:30:28 AM
Most of the proposed drawings show a center of gravity below the axle but to have
rotation the CG must be above the axle.  I usually draw a circle around the weights
and then make a guess as to whether it is below or above the CG.  The trick is to get
gravity to do what it does not want to do - stay above the axle...  Another method is
to keep the CG shifted to the right but then when it rotates how do you get gravity
to reset the weight to repeat the process?
this uses the CG shift idea.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12341-mikhail-dmitriyev-input-1000-w-output-near-3000-w-15.html

I have had some great ideas that had great promise until I got to the reset point.
Even this centripital force idea looked promising

http://www.overunity.com/12119/centripetal-force-yealds-over-unity/#.UMCREkquo6I

Norman

Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 17, 2013, 03:11:50 AM
you'd be better off having a sponge 10 feet high then drooped over 9 feet long downwards, how long does the sponge have to be so that the gravity of the soaked sponge gives up 1 drop of water????
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: circle on February 02, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
there are a lot of good ideas here
i do not see clear indication that anyone here has the full working setup but i am supportive of anyone who can see it for themselves
(who is mod on this board now that alex no longer logs in? and why in hell have i only received 5 pm's with over 14,000 views?)
when i first found the answer for myself back in nov 07 my first reaction to it was to step back and review it all.. and take in just how simple it is
and as i saw how simple i realized that anyone could figure it out and someone else probably would in a matter of days or weeks i thought
so for two months i set it asside in the assumption that it was pointless to try to race forward with something that someone else would be putting forward with much better backing

for two months i looked into and pondered what must be the structure of this world in light of this

the idea of building it is hardly as needed as those who do not know the design imagine..
the pavlovian nature of acedemic errant presumption is appaling
if i describe a glass to you you have no problem thinking of how it operates
if i describe a one inch hole in the bottom of that glass you have no problem forseeing how it will behave when filled with water
close the top and make the hole less than a 16th of an inch and the matter of simply visualizing correctly becomes more at risk of error; it becomes a measure of your auccuracy in perceiving and in the use of insight toward detailed physical matters
i use this analogy to set up the statement that the operation of the wheel (when correctly described) leaves so little to chance that one can see what will happen as simply as with the large hole in the bottom of the glass
and while someone might wish to debate the operations viability when in operation with only a single pair of weights there becomes no question when considering the effects of repitition of form on the design; four weights or eight weights will result in one side of the wheel always having more 'weight' suspended from it

you wont have much luck trying to model it in two dimensions
you are right about #21 being a part of the design but it is only one layer (and the comment about the symbolic nature of the depicted round ends [and their counterparts] figures in) and operation changes as directional latches take hold in their turn

although my first impression and guess had held that the 'boards' might be set radialy pointing away from the hub i had soon looked at what they had to do with the function of the path of motion and found that they were placed differently and in a clever way, kept from interfeering with the weights
there is a specific reason the word 'short' is used to describe the boards and their condition of being 'warped' is worth digging into for an exact specific definition.. in light of which i saw that i needed to look into the reason the boards appeared to be 'warped'
the operation of the device applied the stress that bent them.. and as i gradually came to know... the pressure was applied as the weights decended
the rolling weight can be called front 'weight' the one that clicks into place at the bottom can be called the 'rear' weight

i had the entire structure figured out before i understood how the energy was stored and released (on the fifth day after finding the image) and the last bit about the twelve oclock position 'trigger release' for the dowel that holds the rear weight in place was the trigger for my 'eureka' (greek - literaly "i have found it") moment on the matter

and, though i had not found this description until long after solving, sure enough from a side view, there 'they' (the weights) appear "as chldren jumping over a fence"

the idea of a square wheel as a concept might be hard to get your mind around.. and perhapes a triangle wheel even moreso.. so when we get to the side view of a two sided form most are lost
and to show the structure of the set.. reduce again..  a single side?.. is a circle

so i am riding the fence as to the notion of opensource vs profit from this
in my view, pattents are a sham ..just there to keep the 'owners' on top (you must 'disclose' to get a pattent)
{i kinda expect that it is already pattented and kept quiet by gag order}
i can get past the idea of monitizing this but i do not care to make a half assed effort at release
if i knew for certain that i would reach 250,000 people (who are competent and give a damn) who were not in danger of suffering supression then i would problably go forward with it

however.. if you can not see that this planet is under specific managment you may be beyond hope on comprehending why i am reluctant to run forward with this

anyway.. this is the biggest clue i have set forward yet on any forum other than an anonymous message board

otherwise.. if you care to make a profit out of this (without solving either the puzzle or the many aspects of monitizing it for yourself) find a buyer
i dont care who buys it or what they want to do with it
i would like to retain the right to use it in private for my own benefit and perhapse even retain the rights to hand down same to genetic lineage (those who own and operate the planet have hedged themselves in historicaly with such deals)
although it is worth 11 billion easy, for a quick ten mill usd i will walk away from it (will consider any other offers including offers for tenured employment)
non disclosure in place, buyer to set funds in escrow with thrid party atty (pending successful evidence of proof of concept) and pay for build
yea i kinda feel dumb trying to sell something for so much when it is not much more complicated than 'how to tie your shoes' but people do not seem to know how to do this and it has good value
pain in the ass that it is to hold such a knowledge i would do better to come out with something and walk away with my life
hell.. i would gladly spend the rest of my days renouncing it and supporting the acedemic line

besides.. i have practicaly handed the design out in this post

(image is of an old lockbox, the complexity of these used to facinate me as a kid and i would often get let behind by my group as i took the time to look to exactly what was occuring within. when thinking of the early 1700s many people are unaware just how developed mechanical devices were)
Title: Re: Bessler Wheel design
Post by: garrypm on February 02, 2013, 11:25:27 AM
Bravo and good luck for the future.

Garry
Title: 2 weight shifting arms vs 8
Post by: norman6538 on February 03, 2013, 09:05:33 PM
Before I waste a lot of time I have a question.
If I have two arms that weight shift and rotate a wheel 90 degrees each then will adding more arms give more degrees or just reduce the degrees that one arm shifts.

I realize that with 2 arms the mass of one arm only has to shift the mass of another arm but
with 8 arms then the mass of one arm has to shift the mass of 7 arms.

I'm sure someone has figured this all out.
Norman