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Author Topic: The Road to Perpetual Motion  (Read 37673 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2008, 08:00:15 PM »
Sorry Gentlemen,

There isn't much to tell at the moment. The control mechanism is designed, I am still trying to simplify it a bit more, but more or less it's ready. We are sourcing the parts needed to build the whole thing so construction should begin in about a week or so.

I'll keep you informed.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2008, 08:00:15 PM »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2008, 06:46:10 PM »
G'day all,

I have been rather busy with my research into the fundamental principles of perpetual motion. Here is part 1 of my latest set of thoughts and experiments.

Part 2 should be ready shortly.

Have fun

Hans von Lieven


Why Overunity and therefore Perpetual Motion is possible.

Part 1

In an effort to track down Bessler’s “motus perpetualis”, which I translated as principle of perpetual motion, because that is what Bessler meant when he used the term, I came across what I dubbed the “recoil effect”.

I reasoned that it was possible to separate under certain conditions action from equal and opposite reaction, and that one of these forces could be turned around and fed back into the system providing additional energy over and above the energy input.

My paper so far dealt with this phenomenon as a key element in a proposed design of a perpetual motion machine.

I reasoned further that, if my theory held true, it would apply across the spectrum and not just be confined to guns, rocket engines and so forth.

We talk about conservation of energy. This so called law forbids the existence of a perpetual motion machine that can do work.

The theory was formalised by Hermann von Helmholtz (1821-1894) in his seminal paper “Ueber die Erhaltung der Kraft” (Concerning the conservation of force).

Now Helmholtz was no idiot, quite the opposite. He was one of the most eminent scientists of his time. His discoveries were fundamental in many fields of science and are still in all the textbooks. To my knowledge he was never proved wrong. Helmholtz certainly knew what energy was, so why didn’t he use this term? Why did he call it conservation of force?

This is where science made a fundamental error. By substituting the word energy for force they missed much of what Helmholtz was saying because the two are not the same.

Take a simple example:

We have a ten kg weight lying on the ground. No potential energy there. We now lift the weight and place it on top of a post, say one meter high. Now we have potential energy. It only needs a small push and we can liberate it. The potential energy turns into kinetic energy as the weight falls until it hits the ground. That energy is the exact equivalent to the energy we had to expend to lift the weight to that height.

CoE proved    QED

But is that all there is?

No, it is not!

Our ten kg weight exerts a downward pressure on the ground as well as on the post when it is stationary. This pressure is still there after the weight has fallen off the post and all the potential energy is spent. Nevertheless it is a real force though there is no energy available.

There is one paragraph in Helmholtz’ paper that was taken out by science and is no longer taught. In that paragraph Helmholtz shows the possibility of perpetual motion. To my knowledge Helmholtz never published the reason why he said: Force can be gained and lost ad infinitum.



(http://keelytech.com/overunity/helmholtzquote.jpg)



He would not have said it lightly though, since it appears to contradict the entirety of his paper. But it only does so if you equate energy with force. If you make a distinction between the two terms there is no contradiction.

Helmholtz was no theoretical physicist. He arrived at his results mainly through experimentation and observation. So just where did he observe the gaining and losing of force ad infinitum?

This has puzzled me for many years.

I finally found the proof to what he was saying in the simplest machine there is, the pendulum. We have actually known about it all along but its significance has escaped us because we equate force with energy.

So what is so special about a pendulum?

Let us observe its action. Say, we have a pendulum and we lift the pendulum bob to point  A.



(http://keelytech.com/bessler/pop/pendulum.gif)


Since the pendulum bob cannot go lower than point C because of the string, the vertical distance between point A and point C is the potential energy we have at our disposal, governed by gravity. If we now let go of the pendulum bob it will descend along the arc governed by the string and is propelled by gravity to point C. It accelerates as it is doing so. After it passes point C it is now adversely affected by gravity decelerating as it approaches point B at which time the momentum is exhausted and it will reverse.

In an ideal system (i.e. No friction, air resistance and any other force) point A and point B are on the same horizontal level. The potential energy at point B is exactly the same as it was at point A and the pendulum will oscillate forever.

This is conservation of energy in its simplest form, so science tells us.

Wrong!

The moment we let go of the pendulum bob we have converted potential energy into force. In other words we are observing conservation of force. It is important to remember this.

But is that all that happens?

No, it is not!

As a result of the movement centripetal and its equal and opposite centrifugal force develop with the square of velocity.

In rough and ready terms at velocity one the centripetal force is one, at velocity two it becomes four, at velocity three it becomes nine and so forth. This is well known.

These forces appear seemingly out of nowhere, since they do not consume any of the input energy but they are real nevertheless as the increasing tautness of the string shows. These forces develop independently and have no effect on the action of the pendulum whatsoever.

From the point of release, when centripetal and centrifugal force are zero, their strength increases as the bob increases in velocity and decreases accordingly on the upswing until the bob arrives at point B where after a short stop, at which time they become zero  again, the pendulum reverses, the cycle starts afresh and the forces reassert themselves all over.

Force gained and lost ad infinitum, just as Helmholtz said !!!!!

As every Olympic hammer thrower knows this additional energy can be used to do work. For this to happen there has to be a separation of systems..

This was my line of thought up to that point. What now needed to be done was to set up a simple and easily repeatable experiment that proved the validity of my statements. Part 2 shows the experiments where I tested just that. WM2D simulations of my experiments are attached.

Hans von Lieven


Offline utilitarian

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2008, 07:39:15 PM »

These forces appear seemingly out of nowhere, since they do not consume any of the input energy but they are real nevertheless as the increasing tautness of the string shows. These forces develop independently and have no effect on the action of the pendulum whatsoever.

From the point of release, when centripetal and centrifugal force are zero, their strength increases as the bob increases in velocity and decreases accordingly on the upswing until the bob arrives at point B where after a short stop, at which time they become zero  again, the pendulum reverses, the cycle starts afresh and the forces reassert themselves all over.


I am not sure what you mean by the forces appearing out of nowhere.  The forces are a result of gravity.  The only reason the bob had any potential energy when lifted to its height is due to gravity, and that is the clear source of the other forces. 

The exponential increase in the centripetal force with time is no surprise, since the strength of a force is essentially defined as the rate of acceleration of an object under the influence of such a force.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2008, 07:39:15 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2008, 08:09:03 PM »


The exponential increase in the centripetal force with time is no surprise, since the strength of a force is essentially defined as the rate of acceleration of an object under the influence of such a force.

Correct, but they do not consume any of the potential energy. That is why science goes to extreme lengths to obscure the fact that they come from somewhere they cannot determine. They get around it by saying "Centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement deduced from an observed trajectory, not a kinetic force like gravity or electrical forces." Source wikipedia, centripetal force.

Hans von Lieven


Offline Marctwo

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2008, 11:06:57 PM »
@Hans:  Why would you post this in the middle of another thread???  I see you've also posted this in the middle of another thread at besslerwheel.com...???  Do you have a problem starting new threads?

You seem to be drawing some very naive conclusions from the simple effects of enertia.  I'd say more wishful thinking than viable theory...

But I'll reserve a full opinion until you've posted the full series in it's own dedicated thread.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2008, 11:06:57 PM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2008, 11:56:25 PM »
The effects on centrifugal force can do some obvious strange and unormal things compared with our general used linear motion, which we use in most of our machines and generators. The pendulum is the perfect example of this. We know that when the pendulum falls down it creates or recives a strong centrifugal pull out and away from the center axis which it rotates on. However, if we then would try to use that mechanical pressure in a machine to capture it you would soon realize that the pendulum would loose its momentum, and so in a way it is after all connected with the motion of the pendulum. But, in total opposite to any nomal motor/generator or other mechanical function, in which the loss of energy allways is proportional to the ammont of resistance in its system, in the pendulum case, the more resistance you add to the movment of its center axis, the less energy will be lost by the pendulum, which can be said in another way:
The more load you put on the mechanical ouput from the center axis of a oscillating pendulum, the lesser will the loss of energy from the moving pendulum be. Still the pendulum will be able to put out a mechanical force, and many times longer than if the resistance on the central axis were to be lowered.

A bit messy written pehaps, but I think that most of you will agree that this is indeed the way a pendulum works, and really any other mechanical process which uses centrifugal movment of a common axis as its source of power. The relationship between resistance and power has actually been reversed. And also, from there we can begin to enter the realm of "perpetual motion", but not in the true sence of course,  as the energy or potential must come from somewhere...

Offline Kator01

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2008, 01:27:19 AM »
Hello Hans,

this is exactly what pequaide is doing in his experiment.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1995.200

momentum is conserved p = m x v ( german : Impulserhaltung ) but not energy an so is force because

F = dp/dt


One has to release ( seperate)  part of a rotating mass ( steel-spheres)  and at the same time transfer momentum of the left-behind rotating mass via a steel-string to the spheres trying to escape in a tangential way.

These two topics fit together.

Here is an intersting collection of physics for all formulas - very good tutorial
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

@utilitarian : force is a result of the mass-inertia ( and not the gravitation) of a rotating mass (in this example )  , trying to stay on its straigth forward-pasage while it is contantly  forced ( beeing attached to a  string ) to come back to the circling path.
When a mass is in free fall within a graviation-field there is no force present - only in the above case of rotation -
force then appears because the mass tries to stay on a translatory path.


Regards

Kator



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2008, 01:27:19 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2008, 08:42:05 AM »
@ Kator,

You are absolutely right, this is what Pequaide is on about though I approach it from a more general direction.

@ Marctwo

This is not the middle of another thread. I have been on about the separation of systems as a key ingredient from day one. This is just another instance.

Just bear with me guys, I am not here to confuse anyone. It is just a lot of work to get it all together bit by bit.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Marctwo

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2008, 02:15:37 PM »
...This is not the middle of another thread. I have been on about the separation of systems as a key ingredient from day one. This is just another instance.
Up to the introduction of this new tangent, this thread has been about a very specific mechanical design... not general ideas on why PM should work.  The two may be related in broader terms and belong in this forum, but they do not relate specifically so should be in different threads.

Now, I was going to try to explain the benefits of organizing different subjects into different threads;  Not only for those of us that see them as they are created,  but for those that will be browsing these forums in the future and have no memory of all the off-topic lines of discussion tucked away inside various threads.

But I seem to be the only one concerned with this.  So if you and everyone else are happy to have your general theories of PM lost in the middle of arbitrary threads across the forums,  who am I to advise otherwise.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2008, 02:15:37 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2008, 08:03:28 PM »
Marctwo:

I see what you are saying but look at the title of this topic: The Road To Perpetual Motion.  Hans started out outlining his thinking and approach to not only to a specific device, but to the path traveled by others that came before that led to this device.  I think this is essential not only for Hans' understanding of how a working device may be made, but to ours as well.  With his mention of Helmholtz, I believe he was trying to illustrate for us that the "conventional" thinking that this is impossible may be wrong, and why.  To me, this is very important and very related.  Just my thoughts.

Hans:

Looking forward to seeing your future posts.  If anyone can make this work, it is you.

Bill

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2008, 08:30:07 PM »
@ Martwo,

Bill is right. Any designs that you may come across in this thread are only possible applications of my ideas. The main thrust of the thread is to lay a scientific basis to perpetual motion as such.

The idea of perpetual motion has been discredited by science for a very long time.

What I am trying to show is that perpetual motion is possible within the framework of contemporary scientific thinking and accepted laws of physics. No re-writing of Newton's laws or of Conservation of Energy laws is required. All the prerequisites are already there and known to science. These posts of mine are not for casual reading. They have to be studied to be understood. I am trying to put the subject matter in as plain a language as I can so most people can understand what I am talking about. Only time will tell if I can succeed in this.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2008, 08:30:07 PM »
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Offline Marctwo

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2008, 09:47:13 PM »
Well, with ~40 posts specifically geared toward the Keenie device, I'm probably not the only one who got the wrong idea of what this thread was about.

Still, if you say this thread isn't about the Keenie device then I guess I should leave you to get it back on topic...

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2008, 10:27:43 PM »
When I first struck the Pop Keenie's device I said very clearly that I saw in it the principle of perpetual motion that up to that time had escaped me.

Using his device as a model I began formulating what these principles are. If we want to build a gravity wheel we must understand how it may operate. 300 years of wild experimentation have brought no-one closer to re-creating what Bessler and Pop Keenie did.

Bessler said that his wheel does not violate any laws of physics. The corollary to this is that Bessler's system can be understood by anyone versed in traditional physics. This is what I am trying to do, nothing more.

Hopefully by the time I am finished many of you will be building wheels of various designs that work. I believe I know WHAT Bessler and Pop Keeny did, I do not know HOW they did it as there are any number of engineering solutions once the operating principles are understood.

This is a project under development. It leads to wherever it leads to as new insights come to hand and what you started off with is not necessarily what you have at the end. Such is the nature of the beast.

Hans von Lieven

Offline ChileanOne

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2008, 11:45:04 PM »
Dear Hans:

I am following with utmost interest this thread. As I am a "Steorn junkie" I wanted to ask if you visualize your current line of exploration of the perpetual motion to be valid or extrapolable to magnetic fields.

I think you are on the right trail, and I wanted to thank you for your efforts on sharing it with the world.

My Best Regards!

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: The Road to Perpetual Motion
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2008, 11:49:41 PM »
G'day ChileanOne,

Yes, I believe what I am working on has repercussions right across the spectrum. When I have concluded my current set of experiments I will turn my attention to magnetism and see if and how it might apply there. Thanks for your interest.

Hans von Lieven

 

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