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## 2nd "law" violations => Heat to electric energy conversion => Topic started by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:04:39 AM

Title: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
This is interesting so I thought I might share it to see what the group thinks. I took a 1.5 sq. in. peltier and connected to a amp meter and a volt meter to see its output under heat conditions.
The peltier is under a glass bowl so I can get the maximum output using a greenhouse effect. At an outside temperature of 83 F. I am getting a reading of 200ma and 20mv output. This is really quite high.
A standard solar panel is around 24"x60" or 1440 in. sq. and will normally put out around 12v-17volts at ideally 100watts.
If the same number of peltier squares were connected in series (960) of them the output would be:
960 x 200ma=  192 amps
960 x 20mv  =  19.2 volts
or
w=va     192 amp x  19.2 volts=  3686 watts
A peltier works on the principal of a difference of the temp. from one side to the other. The greater the delta T the higher the output.
This peltier is sitting on the ground and has been in that position for the last 6 hours.
It reached 200 ma output about 2 hours ago so the output has been steady.
Am I missing something here? this looks really interesting.
Since a peltier "runs" on heat it is not necessary to be orienting it to the sun (as a solar panel). The heat builds up under the glass dome.
Also at night it could also work on your roof in such that the warmth from the housew through the roof relative to the colder outside air would cause the same effect. Works in daylight and at night time.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: BEP on September 12, 2008, 12:15:33 AM
Maybe there are some differences with a solar cell but with the cells connected in series and all cells capable of a given current - only the voltage will go up. The amps should be almost the same as one cell.

Is the meter the only load?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:25:27 AM
I have 4 peltiers when I connect them in series the voltage is 4 times and the current is 4 times as much. The voltmeter is the only load at this time
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: BEP on September 12, 2008, 12:39:08 AM
May I suggest connecting a load other than the meter. Such as a resistor that is still rather high in Ohms but far less than the input impedance of the meter.

What I'm thinking is the meter may be of such high impedance as to not draw the current possible from the cell. This would explain why the current is 4 times as much with 4 cells. Simply because the load remained the same while the voltage increased.

All though, 200ma sounds a bit high for a modern digital meter to draw on it's own.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:45:26 AM
I am using a panel meter with a 600ma max range to read the amps, The digital meter is reading the voltage
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: poynt99 on September 12, 2008, 12:47:13 AM
i think you are missing something indeed.

how can current increase simply by putting these in series?

you can not multiply your voltage AND current by 960 times, only one of them. current does not add when in series. i thought that was basic knowledge.

so, for the correct calculation, you have:
960 x .02V = 19.2V
current is at 200mA

so 19.2V x .2A = 3.84 Watts
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: gyulasun on September 12, 2008, 12:48:40 AM

Bill,  you have connected the ampmeter in parallel with the Peltier and it reads about 200mA, right?

And you connected the voltmeter also in parallel with the Peltier, right?

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:53:37 AM
I just took a 4900mf cap 25 voltage and shorted to 7.3mv output as read on my multimeter. I then placed my hand on 2 of the four peltiers to read around 56 mv on the multimeter. I discharged the 56 mv into the capacitor. The capicator is now reading 56mv.
Point being this set is capable of charging up a cap to store energy. Obviously would it be able to also charge up a battery- bank of batteries?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 12:57:37 AM
Again the peltiers in series read 4 times the voltage and 4 times the amperage. If you wish I can post a video on youtube to show this. I'm as perplexed as you are.
Can I post a video on this forum?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: gyulasun on September 12, 2008, 12:59:14 AM

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 01:29:42 AM
Having trouble with this video download to this site I am going to post it on you tube and get right back with the youtube access.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 01:56:39 AM

This show me placing my hand individually on each peltier one at a time and removing them one at a time. There is a corresponding increase and subsequent decrease in both voltage and amperage. The heat from my hand is sufficient to create the reaction.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: TheOne on September 12, 2008, 01:58:51 AM

200ma x 20mv is 0.2a x 0.02v = 0.004w * 1000 (devices) -> 4w

So you got nothing, sorry :)

Try to use a concentrator to get an higher temp on the hot side
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 02:10:24 AM
Yes I ran the same numbers but:
1000 peltiers in series would read 1000 x .019 volts= 19 volts
The same 1000 peltiers in series would read 1000 x .2 amps = 200 amps

200 amps x 19 volts = 3800 watts.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: TheOne on September 12, 2008, 02:50:02 AM
That not work like that, you need to multiply 0.004w * 1000 (devices) -> 4w

You cannot multiply 1000 with V then multiply by A then multiply again, you have one to much multiplication.

200 amps x 19 volts = 3800 watts / 1000 = the real result 4w
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Bubba1 on September 12, 2008, 03:22:37 AM
Yes I ran the same numbers but:
1000 peltiers in series would read 1000 x .019 volts= 19 volts
The same 1000 peltiers in series would read 1000 x .2 amps = 200 amps

200 amps x 19 volts = 3800 watts.

I agree the voltages would add up in series.  1000 peltiers in series would give 19 volts.  However, the amps do not add up in a series circuit.  The same current goes through all of the peltiers.  Do you really think that there would be 200 amps going through those skinny wires?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on September 12, 2008, 03:43:43 AM
Each peltier is acting as a individual charging station. If there was not a culmulative effect happening then I would not be seeing a step increase in both voltage and amperage as measured on the individual meters. The digital meter measuring the voltage and the 600ma meter measuring the amperage.
I took another capacitor and "charged it up" to 100 mv and 200 ma from the four peltiers. I removed the cap from the system and discharged it into the voltmeter and it read around 95mv.
I then reccharged the cap to 100 mv and discharged it into the amp meter and it spiked at 200ma.
I understand your math but the fact of the matter is that it is charging both amperage and voltage in series.

Of course 3800 watts would fry the system.

Again each peltier, acting independent of each other until is acting as its own charging station. In a panel configuration the entire system would read the culmulative levels. It might be possible to pulse charge a battery pack as is used in a standard solar system. Even though
the pulse would momentarily "drain" the panel it in effect recharges itself within seconds.

Also when I used a simple magnifing glass on the surface of one of the peltiers not even focused at its smalled point the amp meter pegged (600ma+) and the voltmmeter read 300 mv.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: TheOne on September 12, 2008, 03:59:07 AM
You seam to not understand that your calculation is wrong, its 4w not 4000w, you cannot multiply 2 times 1000, only one time, the best way to calculate is to get the w from one peltier and then multiply it by 1000 not by 1000000

Anyway, i was looking at this too, maybe with a concentrator (mirror dish) could be used to focus the hot ray sun in a piece of metal that lye on few peltiers devices and maybe you can really get something useful from it.

GM is about to release a generator working on this principe, not sure if they use peltier device but they seam to generate enough power to be used as generator.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: hydrocontrol on September 12, 2008, 04:07:22 AM
The best way to increase the power level is to increase the temperature differential between each side of the Peltier Junction. So the best way to do this is cool one side of the junction using a large heat sink. The other peltier side attach a piece of aluminum painted black and focus the sun on the aluminum. Make sure to use heat sink compound.  ;)

So you need four of these.
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/peltier/ck500.htm

Remove the wimpy peltier junction and replace with one of these better junctions
on each assembly. Total four needed.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gigantic-62mm-545-Watt-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooler_W0QQitemZ310081827783QQihZ021QQcategoryZ4660QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hookup the 12vdc fans to be run off the peltiers.

get one of these surplus parabolic dishes discussed here at overunity and retrofit it with the above assembly.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5453.msg125595;topicseen

Ebay source for small dish
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIRECT-TV-TRIPLE-MULTI-SATELLITE-DISH-SATALITE-SATELITE_W0QQitemZ150293343590QQihZ005QQcategoryZ29783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think you should be able to get 1500 watts with fan losses and losses from running four 545 watt peltier devices. Maximum possible would be 2180 watts but that is not going to happen.

Fan assemble \$35.00 x 4 = \$ 140.00
545 watt Peltiers @ \$30.00 x 4 = \$ 120.00
Parbolic dish = \$ 45.00
A bit of engineering and for less than \$400.00 you should have about 1500 watts plus on a sunny day.

Now compare with the cost of \$ 400.00 for some creative backyard engineering against this  ebay listing for 6 solar panels that put out 180 watts each (6x180=1080 watts) for \$3,780.00 and take up a lot of room.  ;D  ;D

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pallet-of-6-180-Watt-solar-panels-3-50-watt_W0QQitemZ220280243462QQihZ012QQcategoryZ41981QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like it might pay to be creative.  :o  :o
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: hydrocontrol on September 12, 2008, 04:19:42 AM
Found a better and cheaper source for a bigger paroblic dish. Lots in stock.

http://cgi.ebay.com/33-satellite-dish-w-mast-arm-reflector-all-except-LNB_W0QQitemZ140240563330QQihZ004QQcategoryZ29783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or here for a 36 inch dish. Lots in stock as well.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HiFast-36-High-Quality-118-119-Satellite-FTA-LNB-DISH_W0QQitemZ230260959778QQihZ013QQcategoryZ29783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I guess I will have to get some of the peltier junctions to play with now.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: TheOne on September 12, 2008, 04:29:24 AM
Great tutorial to make your own dish

PARABOLIC DISH MIRROR PARABOLOID HOMEMADE SOLAR CONCENTRATOR

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: hydrocontrol on September 12, 2008, 04:36:10 AM
Reflective mylar roll for paroblic dish

http://cgi.ebay.com/REFLECTIVE-MYLAR-50-roll-hydroponic-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ250291561362QQihZ015QQcategoryZ43555QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: pese on September 12, 2008, 10:58:26 AM

MOR SIMPLY the "metering warong" is to unse car lamps as load.

Your "light" is directly comimg to brain and to understand, what power comes out
to load CAR-lamps (bulbs) tha are to find at 5 10 21 50 watt. (12 volts)

after this you can try to understand your "volt/Ampere Meters)
Pese
Title: Re: Peltier Generating less Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: exnihiloest on September 12, 2008, 11:42:56 AM
...
If the same number of peltier squares were connected in series (960) of them the output would be:
960 x 200ma=  192 amps
960 x 20mv  =  19.2 volts
or
w=va     192 amp x  19.2 volts=  3686 watts

Wrong calculation.
As the elements are in series, the voltages add but the current remains the same.
960 peltier squares give 19.2v, 0.2 A, thus P = 3,84 W which is far less than a solar panel of same area.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating less Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: spinner on September 12, 2008, 12:02:57 PM
Wrong calculation.
As the elements are in series, the voltages add but the current remains the same.
960 peltier squares give 19.2v, 0.2 A, thus P = 3,84 W which is far less than a solar panel of same area.

Absolutely.
Peltier effect is indeed an interesting thing... But..

Like most of the people already said, the electricity produced is relative to a HEAT difference between the Peltier element sides, and it's perfectly CoE obedient. In fact, it's one of the worst energy converters (in a thermodynamical sense).

Without going into details, I'd say it has at least a few times lower efficiency than a 'same area' solar cell (which depends on different, photoelectric effect).

Check your measurements, use a known resistor for a load and measure voltage across it's terminals.
Ohm's law will tell you the rest.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: hydrocontrol on September 12, 2008, 03:56:38 PM
Nice video that shows using a peltier.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1167872/alternative_electricity_energy_power_from_peltier/

You need a setup like this to check out what happens when you add multiple peltier junctions. I am surprised that he did not have two or three peltiers junctions hooked up with the size of the heat sinks he was using. Now take his setup and add a parabolic reflect dish to the mix.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: FreqShift on August 12, 2009, 05:28:39 AM
The Peltier, or the "Solid State Thermal Electric Generator", as I like to call it, is now capable of much higher efficiencies:

See Here:

http://www.powerchips.gi/technology/pcalc.shtml

Using a small parabolic dish, it is now possible to generate several thousand watts of electricity.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5453.msg196837;topicseen#msg196837

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 12, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
where are you getting peltiers that only produce 20mv??

mine produce between 8 - 13VOLTS with a temp. diff of 200 degrees

this guy here has done some pretty kewl stuff with an archimedes-style solar collector.
http://solardeathray.com/ (http://solardeathray.com/)

there are designs that work much better than this, using far less space. it's all about the angle of reflection, directing many suns into one spot, a lense can also be utilized to focus the beam even futher.

a basic 14-inch solar oven can reach over 350 degrees F.

a solar panel of a given area is going to waste almost all of the heat energy it collects from the sun.

theres no doubt that the sun puts out far more heat energy than 'visible' light.
the peltier vs solar panel argument, depends mostly on how each are configured. you can collect light and polarize it to make the solar panel more efficient,
or you can collect light and focus it to ake the heat collector more efficient..

overall the most efficient device i have seen for converting sunlight into usable energy is a solar collector to a sterling engine.

nothing else even comes close.

a 6-inch reflector dish can power a household hair dryer, even with the rediculous conversion losses of connecting the sterling to a magnetic motor/generator.

neither a solar array nor a peltier array can do that, or even a combination of both....

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: triffid on August 12, 2009, 08:16:34 PM
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: kmarinas86 on October 07, 2009, 09:27:09 PM
This is interesting so I thought I might share it to see what the group thinks. I took a 1.5 sq. in. peltier and connected to a amp meter and a volt meter to see its output under heat conditions.
The peltier is under a glass bowl so I can get the maximum output using a greenhouse effect. At an outside temperature of 83 F. I am getting a reading of 200ma and 20mv output. This is really quite high.
A standard solar panel is around 24"x60" or 1440 in. sq. and will normally put out around 12v-17volts at ideally 100watts.
If the same number of peltier squares were connected in series (960) of them the output would be:
960 x 200ma=  192 amps
960 x 20mv  =  19.2 volts
or
w=va     192 amp x  19.2 volts=  3686 watts

That is an absolutely terrible calculation.

First of all, you claim that 960 of your peltier squares equals 1440 sq inches. That is 1.5 square inches per peltier square. Also, each of your squares produces 200ma at 20mv, which is equal to 0.004 watts. 0.004W * 960 equals 3.84W.

In other words, the correct calculation is:

IN PARALLEL
960 x 200ma = 192 amps
192 amps x .02 volts = 3.84 watts

IN SERIES
960 x 20mv = 19.2 volts
19.2 volts x .2 amps = 3.84 watts

Am I missing something here?

Yes.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Tacmatricx on October 08, 2009, 09:37:44 PM
Hi billmehess,

In this you are measuring both voltage and current.

When you add a peltier in parallel nothing changes.

When you add a peltier in series you see a jump in both current and voltage.

The reason this changes is that the resistance of the load... the ohms of resistance provided by the ammeter is constant.

An ammeter has an internal resistance and is acting as your load.

Using the formula V=IR changed to solve current I=V/R

By adding voltage (peltiers in series) and maintaining the same resistance both current and voltage appear to rise. This doesn't mean that the math works out this way as well... The peltiers have a limit of how much voltage and current they can produce in a certain environment. You can either increase voltage by wiring them in series, increase current by wiring them in parallel or do both by taking four peltiers wired in series and attaching another 4 peltiers in parallel... Do not ever mismatch the strings tho... by taking four peltiers wired in series and adding a string of three or five peltiers (also in series) and then attaching them in parallel to the four. series / parallel strings must always be balanced.

Tacmatricx
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Goat on October 09, 2009, 01:03:19 AM
@ Tacmatricx

That was a great response!

What do you think of a Peltier effect if you had big enough plates outside in -40 C and + 20 C inside the house already using oil, gas, electricity...etc to heat our homes?

Could the Peltier effect regenerate wasted power through lost heat?

Kind Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Goat on October 09, 2009, 01:21:08 AM
@ Tacmatricx

That was a great response!

What do you think of a Peltier effect if you had big enough plates outside in -40 C and + 20 C inside the house already using oil, gas, electricity...etc to heat our homes?

Could the Peltier effect regenerate wasted power through lost heat?

Kind Regards,
Paul

Or for people in warmer climates...Could a Peltier effect if you had big enough plates outside in +40 C and + 20 C inside the house using no oil be of benefit to offset CO2 emissions?  Using Air Condition as in a house buried below the ground to conserve coolness while exchanging a potential with the above ground heat.

Kind Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Tacmatricx on October 09, 2009, 02:40:00 AM
Hi Paul,

I think you'd be better off using a stirling engine at the moment, some of them can run off the heat differential between your hand and room temperature! Plus you can build them yourself instead of buying them with a fixed lifetime.

If you use a parabolic system to heat water, you can run the engine off the difference between hot water and cold water both day and night with the right insulation. Covering a large area with half cut polished oil drums (parabolic cookers) focused on a copper water pipe leading back to an insulated underground storage tank. All you need then is a solar panel driving the pump to circulate the water through the system when the sun strong enough to power the solar panel. Works out to be a hell of allot cheaper than covering the same area with peltiers or solar panels. Now you have a source of really hot water, oil, or coolant to drive your stirling engines pretty much 24/7 charging battery banks.

Change out all your AC lighting and appliances to 12V / 24V or 48V DC units and you don't even need to go buy expensive inverters either.

Tacmatricx
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Goat on October 09, 2009, 04:17:42 AM
Hi Tacmatricx

What about a Sterling engine using -40C to +20C in cold climates, is it feasible using either the outside air to inside air difference?  Could a Sterling engine deliver enough power to heat one's house and keep the a Sterling engine system in motion and keep heating the house?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: mscoffman on October 09, 2009, 05:22:21 PM
Hi Tacmatricx

What about a Sterling engine using -40C to +20C in cold climates, is it feasible using either the outside air to inside air difference?  Could a Sterling engine deliver enough power to heat one's house and keep the a Sterling engine system in motion and keep heating the house?

To that last statement No! Sterling engines are Carnot gas cycle engines
and will always have rather high internal losses. It might be just be
possible to use daily high and low temperatures combined with compressed
air to generate some useful levels of energy. But Carnot cycle efficiencies
are the bane of perpetual motion machines.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: billmehess on October 09, 2009, 07:11:50 PM
Yea , I know my numbers were way off on this one, glad it's generated some bannering around though.
Always fun to talk to all of you great people!
Bill Mehess
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: Poit on June 10, 2010, 01:48:55 AM
Sorry to revive such an old thread... I just very interested in this topic...

so we have sterling engine vs. peltier vs. solar panels

1: sterling engine
2: peltier
3: solar panel

Wouldn't a peltier setup with large fresnel lens magnifiers with water cooled heat sinks + thermal compound (a crap load of these units, i.e 300 (only \$3 on ebay per peltier module) be an ideal solid state electricity generator?

from what I have seen (someone posted the video here already http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1167872/alternative_electricity_energy_power_from_peltier/)... a single peltier unit can produce .9v @ 250mA albeit the heat source was from candles, BUT! with concentrated sun light, I believe you could get close to this heat.

So maths time:
to get 14v you would need to put 20 units in series (20x .7v = 14v) I say .7v because if peak is .9 im guessing .7 would be average.

So thats, 20 units in series to make 14v 250mA. so if you build 40 of these, wire them in parallel, you should get 14v @ 10A/h DC. average of 7 hours of hot sun would make that 70Amps.

Get a gel cell or a normal lead acid battery @ 12v 70Amp capacity. The entire setup would be very handy, especially if you re-wire the lights in your house to run off 12v.

For cost:
for individual purchases (ebay) it costs \$3.85AUD per peltier. Now, im guessing that if you buy in bulk this price can be reduced to at least \$2 each. so to buy 800 units would cost \$1600. + heat sinks, fixtures, housings, and extra materials... im guessing thats an extra \$400 at least.

so around the 2 grand figure.........  for 2 grand in solar panels can buy you ........... well its about \$700 per 100Watt... and 100 Watt is about 8.3Amps.... so \$1400.... hmmm I guess it might be cheaper...... crap... ive written all of this and solar panel works out cheaper??? waste of time?? or have i miscalculated?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: e2matrix on June 10, 2010, 07:43:07 PM
Solar panels \$1 to \$2 per watt:  http://sunelec.com/

Your cost for solar is way high and I'm sure you won't beat it with peltiers unless you are in a very hot shaded environment.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: CompuTutor on June 11, 2010, 02:41:59 PM
I'm wondering why so many here
did not understand why both
the voltage and the currently increased.

The ammeter is essentially
a fixed resistance value,
just as Tacmatricx cited.

Exception being heat
from excessive current.

For a fixed resistance,
when the voltage rises,
the current must too.

Ideally the ammeter should
be maxing-out the peltier
as far as current goes,
but the ammeter's resistance
is not low enough to do so.

So as more peltiers are added in series,
the voltage across ammeter's resistance
raises until the peltiers maximum current
across a load is finally achieved.

At a certain number of peltiers,
the voltage will have raised enough
to utilize the maximum current out.

Then the current curve will level off.

Put that digital meter across the ammeter only
and measure the ammeter's internal shunt's resistance.

You'll find it is not low enough
to achieve the maximum current
from a single peltier is all.

Ideally,
if a known value of load resistance was known,
like a light bulb, motor, or other steady value.

Then a series set of peltier/solar cells
should be added one at a time until
the best utilization of them occurred.

Then upon knowing that (as example),
five units achieved maximum output.

should attached grouped into series
sets if five units.

Then each set of five units
is then added in parallel to
the existing first string.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: crazyoldfart on January 16, 2013, 12:27:15 AM
I believe you said you had your meter in parallel with the peltier. that could have added as a load with the peltier and given you a false reading. the proper way to measure a load is inline (series) . try your measurement again with this configuration and let me know your results.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: abbhawk on February 25, 2018, 01:42:43 PM
I know this is a old discussion and im not sure what to say - people convince guy started discussion that he is wrong - are YOU sure he IS wrong?

It IS 10 years later now and might be a coincedence but try look at this peltier element from Alibaba which look alot like the one mentioned in here.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TES1-12703-12V-3A-36W-30x30mm_1126728147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.3c572d3046jTzG

One element is 3x3cm and have output of 12v x 3A= 36watt

If you have 1 m2 = 1000cm2/9cm2= 111,11 elements per m2 x 36watt = 4000,00 watt

So it is actually true, and price is 2,78dollar x 111 = 310 dollar of peltiers to make a 4kwh output. Just remember that these 4000watt is calculated at 1A, my house use more like 8A - so 1 m2 equals more like 500 watt at 8A. So if you have sun like 8 hours a day, 1 m2 make 4kwh and you probably need like 5 m2 to make 20kwh daily which is what i use.

Do you agree???

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: ramset on February 25, 2018, 02:46:22 PM
Hmmm

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TES1-12703-12V-3A-36W-30x30mm_1126728147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.3c572d3046jTzG (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TES1-12703-12V-3A-36W-30x30mm_1126728147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.3c572d3046jTzG)

Quote from the supplier

The cooling piece of high-power general models, Entering by a misunderstanding, that the power the greater the cooling, the better it is not true Key depends on what your use, if you do not understand or did not used - not to purchase
If it is fun, and we do not recommend high-power,

end quote

seems like one long disclaimer

However I must say

pretty cool claim...to big to pass up [just in case ?
will see if one of the member Labs can check this and post results here.

abbhawk
Your not a peltier salesman are you?? [only kidding....

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: blueplanet on February 25, 2018, 03:30:36 PM
Why care?
Just experiment it to find out.

Hmmm

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TES1-12703-12V-3A-36W-30x30mm_1126728147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.3c572d3046jTzG (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TES1-12703-12V-3A-36W-30x30mm_1126728147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.3c572d3046jTzG)

Quote from the supplier

The cooling piece of high-power general models, Entering by a misunderstanding, that the power the greater the cooling, the better it is not true Key depends on what your use, if you do not understand or did not used - not to purchase
If it is fun, and we do not recommend high-power,

end quote

seems like one long disclaimer

However I must say

pretty cool claim...to big to pass up [just in case ?
will see if one of the member Labs can check this and post results here.

abbhawk
Your not a peltier salesman are you?? [only kidding....

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: ramset on February 25, 2018, 03:36:06 PM
blueplanet

Yes

Glad you were paying attention .....[or were you??

Chet K
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: blueplanet on February 25, 2018, 03:37:22 PM
My main purpose here is not to argue about the Chinese peltier products. I have experience of using 50W peltier elements.

In EU, there are many funded research projects on solar thermal power. The world has already spent enough money on optoelectronic research. Perhaps, we should take a look on the thermal energy from the Sun. Gd is most likely an element of research interest.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: blueplanet on February 25, 2018, 03:38:12 PM
blueplanet

Yes

Glad you were paying attention .....[or were you??

Chet K

Of course.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: ramset on February 25, 2018, 03:40:57 PM
Can you link to the products you have tested

BTW
I could not agree more , investigations of Thermal energy resources .....and Phase change being a big interest here [for me personally...very low temp phase change discoveries

a few years back I happened upon a DOW chemical test of a very low temp Phase change fluid [80F]

this type of fluid material could change everything ,but it was not open source .

EDIT
I see the links below will look tonight or later [busy in the shop ATM]

Thank you sooo much !!
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: blueplanet on February 25, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
The 50w Peiter elements I used to use in my former research project were purchased from Russia.
I will post back if I find it.

PS. 1) One thing you need to be very careful when experimenting Peiter elements.  When a Peiter element has worked for too long, the ohmic effects of whole element will heat up. You need a good cooling mechanism to achieve a real power generation.

2) The Russian seller was not very cooperative. I paid the money and they delivered to goods to me after half a year.

EDIT:

https://www.amazon.com/TEC1-12705-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier-77Wmax/dp/B01LXZLN5G (https://www.amazon.com/TEC1-12705-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier-77Wmax/dp/B01LXZLN5G)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072TQX2RQ/ref=sspa_dk_detail_6?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B072TQX2RQ&pd_rd_wg=n2qnU&pd_rd_r=PT27V6T0HMCGFKNKWTHK&pd_rd_w=ks08j

Can you link to the products you have tested

BTW
I could not agree more , investigations of Thermal energy resources .....and Phase change being a big interest here [very low temp phase change discoveries
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: blueplanet on February 25, 2018, 03:53:55 PM
....
a few years back I happened upon a DOW chemical test of a very low temp Phase change fluid [80F]

this type of fluid material could change everything ,but it was not open source .

I agree. We need to keep an eye on the latest technologies. That's where the solution lies.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 04:59:31 PM
The square white ceramic units are designed as an electric heat pump
yes - they Can be used for power generation, however:

(I’ll try to transcribe the Chinese websites poor English)
The more power you generate with an array of units,
The greater the cooling requirements
Which uses more of the power you generated (depending on your use)
This curve will cap your output to 0 if not careful.

I would suggest using a Seebeck generator designed for power production.
Such devices find most usage in the shipping industry, for use on bigrig trucks
The ring-shaped units are fitted to the exhaust pipe
And cooled naturally by the wind while driving.
They come in 5kW, 10kW, +
And are rather expensive, but can be obtained from truck junkyards
Hot fluid or gas can be piped through them, to generate power from waste heat.

Using this for solar power may be tricky because of the shape.
But it may be possible to heat a cylinder with a solar concentrator
and in a shade with a light breeze on the outer part of the ring

There are similar (white square) units that LOOK exactly like the “cpu coolers”
But are actually seebecks not peltiers, there are internal differences
And great differences in performance as a generator.
The problem is most manufacturers sell the same peltiers as generators
AND cpu coolers and don’t tell us that they are the same Peltier device.

Main difference that becomes noticeable with use is as follows:
(this applies to the identical looking white square ceramic units)

The Peltier produces less power for temperature difference, and more heat is passed
through to the cold side (requires more cooling to sustain power production)

The Seebeck produces more power for temperature difference, and less heat is
passed through to the cold side (over a set time) and requires less cooling to sustain.

With the current industry standards, disclosure is not a requirement of the manufacturer.
So data sheets, data sheets, data sheets!!
Compare the performance of the products before you buy them!
This is the best way to know what you are actually buying

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 05:05:13 PM
The data sheets will also show you the electrically driven state data

In many cases, if this data is missing, you are probably looking at a Seebeck

Some include the data for both, so by comparison you can determine which one it is
Seebeck will require more electrical power to create the same temperature difference
as the Peltier.
Peltiers work better as a cooler, Seebeck work better as a generator
But both will ‘do both’
So the manufacturers often only produce one type of unit (Peltier CPU cooler)
and sell it as both products.

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 05:06:52 PM
The internal differences are a matter of the connections of the
individual junctions as well as materials used.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 05:30:33 PM

a few years back I happened upon a DOW chemical test of a very low temp Phase change fluid [80F]

Solid -> liquid:   Gallium and Cesium
Cyclohexanol
Cresol (88F)
Capric Acid (88F)

Liquid -> gas:

Acetaldehyde 69F
Hydroflouric Acid 66F
Trichlorofloromethane (R1) 75F <- reacts with O3

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: abbhawk on February 25, 2018, 06:01:08 PM
I just stepped over another peltier module that has a improved performance.

https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/TEC1-12712-12V-12A-145W-40_60135673932.html?spm=a2700.details.maylikehoz.3.75881e11zPdAST

145watt at 16 cm2 thats like 9watt per cm2 or 9000watt/hour per m2

Each module cost 6,90dollar so a m2 cost around 430dollar

I took a look at these Seebeck modules but they seem to run on high temp and they are very expensive, so i think i like these normal peltier modules better, because they can run on solar. But of course im no expert so i need to listen to what you guys say.

Any chance anyone like to test it for us?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: franco malgarini on February 25, 2018, 07:26:02 PM
I assume at minus that one cell produces 10 W
400 cell (1 square meter) produce 4 KW
and cost 1.000\$
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 01:22:14 AM
There is a temperature difference factor that needs to be included

Not just rated output

But rated output per difference in temperature

we can realistically achieve ~230 degrees in full sunlight
with a simple solar oven

Upwards to 10K with an Eric Jacqmain (Archimedes) device
But this process is constricted by surface area

Ideally, we want to find the best performance per area, per temp diff. per cost

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 01:34:46 AM
Here

http://hi-z.com/product-tag/teg-module/ (http://hi-z.com/product-tag/teg-module/)

Want to make some real power
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: abbhawk on February 26, 2018, 09:30:25 AM
Hi Sm0ky

I do not understand why you prefer this TEG module? As i see it, your TEG modules have a bigger surface area and lower rated output in volt - same time i see no claim about Amphere so i have no clue how many watt it can output? Did you figure that out?

You like to make it important which temp diffrence is made, why? What is important to me is that i have a steady heat coming that i can convert to electricity.

It is not a question of making as much power as you can, it is a matter of producing energy so cheap as you can.

If I build a plastic box 1m2 and 10cm wide then i produce alot of heat like 60c and during day i just get new energy all day long - this box i can build at 450dollar.

You talk about building a reactor where you squeeze in my 1m2 to maybe 50cm2 that have heat at 300c - but you will not get more energy from the sun by using a reactor, sun adds like 2kwh of power per m2 - you cant get more out of it!!! but you reactor might cost 1000dollar while my plastic box might cost 20dollar.

And you TEG module cost 20-40dollar a piece, while my peltier cost 6,90dollar per module.

If my peltier module will work then i feel confident that this is the way to go...but i agree it would be a big help if someone could test what is best.
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 01:23:49 PM
Temperature difference to Watts is how these devices are rated

Greater temperature difference = more power output

Hi-Z is the industry leader in TEG units.
Not the Chinese

You get what you pay for
They are more expensive, but can actually produce a useable output

The TEC’s from China will barely run a small motor when you Light them on Fire
Pull one off a computer and stick it on the engine block of your car
You can meter it
Then watch it as the cold side gets hot and it almost stops producing power
Now you have to run a fan or liquid cooling system to make it work
you see the power produced - cooling power consumed
Leaves you with nothing compared to a TEG with the same cooling system.

There ARE some similar looking TEGs that work better than the TECs
But you have to know what you are looking at

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 01:34:32 PM
I’ve used them both
With TeaLight candles, sunlight, metal cups of hot water

CPU coolers suck as generators
They are designed as refrigerators/heat pumps
Voltage+current= hot and cold (on the two faces)
They are very inefficient, even as coolers/heaters
and consume quite a bit of electricity
They are just as bad at making it from heat and cold.

TEGs make much better generators
but because of the materials, supplying them with electricity
gives a lower temperature difference than a TEC with the same input.

Most of the white square units are TEC’s, even the ones sold as “TEG’s”
The Chinese companies just sell the TEC as both and deceive us

A couple of them are honest and actually produce both types
but from outward appearances it is difficult to tell the difference
you have to compare data sheets

And look at the output at a range of temperature differences that you
intent to be operating with.
And remember you have to keep the cold side cold
Heat will transfer through and heat it up.
this lowers the Difference in temperature
and lowers the output power
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 01:46:48 PM
@abb

A solar oven is basically a box with a glass or plastic window
You can make them out of junk and paint it black
or make it from aluminum foil
for next to no cost.
probably cheaper than your “greenhouse bowl”

Sun gives ~1kW/m^2 (at noon)
a solar death ray is made of tiny mirrors
or you can use a parabolic dish and cover it with Mylar
Either of these cost around 30-40\$
with a glass cutter and some scrap mirrors, solar death ray can be free

Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: abbhawk on February 26, 2018, 02:26:19 PM
What i talk about is to make what you call a solar oven, i just guess that you talk about similar to a solar cooker which is a real product to cook food in. Im sorry if it is me who use wrong words. Just wonder if true a box/oven like that get up to 200celcius or more, and is that a good temp for plastic?

Well actually i do not expect a 12v 12A = 145watt to operate at optimum performance continuesly. They do say that max heat do not provide max watt. But i kind of liked these better because i thought my heat was way lower than you expect it to be, so now i am a bit confused, dont really know what heat i got to work with...

You might be right about the choice of TEG, but it is a diffrence between no claim for how much it can produce (because they dont talk watt or Amph) but the peltiers clain at 145watt at max performance is probably also 100% higher than your TEG claim, so even if china peltier perform at 50% of your TEG, it still have higher output and cost  25%.

I do not say you are wrong but it would be nice if price to build is 25% of normal choice.

Maybe both products will be done when NASA find producer to their patent for monothermal device?
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: franco malgarini on February 26, 2018, 07:26:49 PM
When there is not the sun, you can use Hylsch tube
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: franco malgarini on February 27, 2018, 03:11:28 PM
Delta T also with zeolite:

http://rexresearch.com/zeolite/4924676.htm
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: ramset on February 27, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Mr Malgarini

Zeolite

some years back member Alaskastar had some thoughts on Zeolite ,  members here did some testing on other thoughts he had but came up on the wrong side [no gain]

we never got to the Zeolite Claim,as I recall it was  Zeolites ability to turn [absorb] a gas and turn it into liquid and then a small charge would empty the zeolite  [solid state compressor ??]

will look again for that information .

I do hope Chris H is doing well in Alaska [I think I owe him a cheeseburger or a few Bucs from another open source  venture...will have to look him up .

Thanks for the Drawing ...and the reboot on Zeolite and its possibilities

respectfully
Chet K

edit for spelling
Title: Re: Peltier Generating More Watts Than A Solar Panel
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 08:00:55 PM
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-thermoelectric-cooler-TEC-and-thermoelectric-generator-TEG (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-thermoelectric-cooler-TEC-and-thermoelectric-generator-TEG)

http://www.europeanthermodynamics.com/news/difference-between-TEC-and-TEG (http://www.europeanthermodynamics.com/news/difference-between-TEC-and-TEG)

Example data sheet (these 2-4% thermal efficiency devices were produced a decade or more ago)
http://www.analogtechnologies.com/document/TEG.pdf (http://www.analogtechnologies.com/document/TEG.pdf)
As shown at the top of the chart, these were optimized to run on 100-degree temp difference.
The data in the chart changes when using a different temperature difference.
Or the same temperature difference, but with different absolute temperatures
An expanded data sheet can be requested from the supplier.
However, it is reccomended to choose a device optimized for your actual temperatures.

Solar ovens and other similar thermal collection devices operate between 190-325 degrees F
that's 88 - 162 C which is in the range of many available TEGs

The biggest concern will be controlling the temperature of the cold side.
Heat sinks or fans, liquid coolin, etc.