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Author Topic: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question  (Read 6414 times)

Offline mangyhyena

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Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« on: September 10, 2008, 08:47:27 AM »
If I've got my information correct, a magnet motor that uses repulsion will wear the magnets out fairly quickly.  But an attraction magnet motor doesn't wear the magnets out.  Is that correct?

If it is, wouldn't an attraction setup be preferable to a repulsion setup, from a practical stand point?

BTW, nice forum you all have here.  Might be a good time to introduce myself a bit.  I have a family of 4, soon to be 5, and I'm fast approaching 40.  And I frigging hate our dependence on OPEC and the utility company!
I'm working on a magnet motor and yea, against all comments/common sense from many physicists I think it will work.  lol.  The setup I'm going for will be on a horizontal drum.  I'm going to place tracks of magnets around the drum.  In this way I believe I can use multiple stators on each track.  I intend to eliminate the gap/sticking point by placing another short array on the other side of the stator so the stator never is without something to attract to.  The short array should carry through the gap and back to the beginning of the main array/track.  The longer I make the drum the more tracks---and stators---I can fit onto it/around it.  I'm hoping to gain enough speed and HP to run an alternator or generator so I can charge a battery bank for home use.  A brake on the drum should allow me to slow it down if it goes too fast.  And if it doesn't go fast enough I'm going to post here and see if you all can figure out how to make it usable, right after I get done crying in frustration.  lol.

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Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 04:49:43 PM »
I came across this topic in another thread.  It got a little heated.  Sorry if I posted something inflammatory.  That wasn't my intention.  There is just so little info about this out there in virtual no-man's land.

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 05:17:40 PM »
Greetings mangyhyena,and welcome to the forum.


Opposites attract, just like in relationships. And life is fine as long as repel keep there distance. LOL

 I have always herd the attract is best but, I have had better effects with repel. But I believe that repel is only bad if you force them into a tight spacing. I believe everyone has herd the story of it worked for awhile and then stopped.

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 05:17:40 PM »
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Offline fritz

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 10:46:41 PM »
I think that an increased magnetic flux density
always stresses a magnet.
This can be caused by attraction or by repelling
action.
In a magnetic motor every magnet is affected by
a ripple of dynamic flux density changes.
As long as this ripple doesnt exceed certain
limit - there is pretty no wear-out.
At the moment when you overstress the magnet -
the field gets weaker.
From this point of view - a setup with mixed symmetric
repelling _AND_ attracting action would double
the amount of energy which can be extracted within
certain density limits.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 01:32:56 AM »
Hi All;

Fritz; I think you are pretty close.
This has never been explained to my satisfaction...so I will ;)...I think magnets erase because of nanoscopic
domain heating to the Curie Point Temperature. I mean that would make sense. This occurs statistically actually
quantum statistically just like temperature distributions of molecules occur in the same way. Also, domain strength
is probably distributed statistically as well. That is certain number of domains are inherently weak so they demagnetize
first, leaving the rest to restore each other unless the whole is grievously treated. So the total magnetization parameter
changes slightly long before the total bulk magnet actually erases. This domain erasure then follows the "bathtub curve"
of "infant mortality" of electronic components. The problem is: I think that magnetic motors may exist but do not have
valid "design margins" therefore changes to magnetic parameters abnormally affect their operation. So if the parmeters are
carefully tweaked for the device to go into operation, then small changes in magnetic parameters may create substantial
differences in the device's operational state. The above holds for neodymium magnets but not ferrite, as been pointed out
in other venues; ferrite magnets can actually have their domains flipped and then flipped back by exposure to stronger
magnetic fields.

---

link to wikipedia "bathtub curve";

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve


link to wikipedia "Curie Point Temperature";

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature


:S:MarkSCoffman


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 01:32:56 AM »
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Offline Charlie_V

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 02:50:43 AM »
Quote
If I've got my information correct, a magnet motor that uses repulsion will wear the magnets out fairly quickly.  But an attraction magnet motor doesn't wear the magnets out.  Is that correct?

This is not fully correct.  For one, most permanent magnet motors (conventional type) use both the push and the pull (repulsion and attraction) to operate.  Repulsion does not wear the magnets unless the coils are producing a flux density greater than the flux density of the magnets (aka the coils are over driven).  If this happens, it will start to degauss the magnets over time.  Rare earth magnets are typically much less susceptible to being degaussed in this way, but it can still happen.  This is the same if you are trying to use an all permanent magnet machine (no coils).  As long as the stator magnets are not stronger than the rotor, repulsion will not hurt them.  Generators don't have this problem because the flux from the coil never exceeds that of the magnets. 

As far as you making a non-conventional permanent magnet motor, all the luck to you.  I've tried to build magnet rings before.  I've found that when you finally do get rid of the "sticky point" the wheel just sits there.  The sticky point is what makes it move - eliminate the sticky point, and all the forces that make the wheel move stop.  I think to make something like this work, there needs to be a way to cause a change in the flux of the stator but in such a way that the changing flux cannot be stopped by the rotor - action without a reaction. 

For an example, lets assume we had a magnet on the rim of a wheel - this is the rotor.  For the stator we take another permanent magnet and we start moving it toward the wheel and pull it away just as the rotor magnet approaches.  If we did this at the right time, we could get the wheel to turn.  However, this is a classic motor.  If we wanted to make the wheel drive itself, we would need to find a way where moving the stator magnet caused the rotor to spin, but as the rotor passes, it had no effect on the stator.  Basically, we want the stator magnet to effect the rotor, but the rotor can't effect the stator (a one way street). 

Hope all this helps,
Charlie

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 09:11:44 AM »
we'll see how this turns out. good luck.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 09:11:44 AM »
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Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 07:24:35 PM »
Thank you for all the replies to this.  Learned a few things and I appreciate that.

"It ran for a while and then quit.  The magnets wore out."  I've read this time and again.  I suspect that most of the time it was written by people who have never gotten one to run in the first place.  lol.  But there are two instances where I believe the inventor got it to run and it did indeed wear out the magnets.  Whether or not it was from mismatched magnets or not I don't know.  One of them warned against running the magnets too close to one another when in repulsion mode.  He seemed to think that distance played a big part of wearing the magnets out.  Any thoughts on that?  If true, then would allowing more space between opposing magnets minimize or eliminate any damage to the magnetic field?

Charlie_V, thank you for the input on magnetic rings.  While I'm not sure I can eliminate the sticking point, I do believe I can reduce its pull against the rotation.  With multiple stators to continue rotation against the sticking point and that sticking point reduced, maybe it will spin by itself.  Maybe that's the best I can hope for.  I've got ideas that I haven't seen others using to get by the gate.  But it could be that everyone has tried them and everyone knows it doesn't work.  ;D  I will not know until I try.  I'm having my drum fabricated for me in such a way that it should allow me to try several different configurations to see if any of them will work.

I'm also getting an axle made for what I hope will be a gravity motor with magnetic assist.  I'll post about that one if it looks like it has promise.  There are repelling magnets in that one, although not close to one another, so I hope it doesn't wear them out if it does work.

Thanks again for the responses.  Much appreciated.

Offline derricka

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 06:07:55 AM »
Its a pretty safe bet that you won't wear out a modern Neo magnet  unless you heat it to 150C  (302 degrees F)
Anything else would require extremes unlikely to be encountered in your home.  To break down a Neo magnet magnetically would require a countering field strength over 15 Kilo Orsteds, again, unlikely in your home. I won't say its impossible to make a magnet motor, but it's certainly not easy. I have yet to see a demo that has me totally convinced. The Overconfident/Alsetalokin design is the best I have seen, but no claims of overunity on this one.

You might find the following link handy.

http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/DesignG_frames/DesignG_2.htm


 

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 06:07:55 AM »
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Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 06:50:36 PM »
Thank you for the link.

"To break down a Neo magnet magnetically would require a countering field strength over 15 Kilo Orsteds,"

Forgive my ignorance, but what would it take to make 15 Kilo Orsteds?  Can I get that amount from other neo magnets, even if they're fairly close together as they pass one another?

And as for getting a magnet motor to continually spin in repulsion mode, I think I have the answer.  LOL, but doesn't everyone working on these motors?  But seriously, one thing I haven't seen worked with on a repulsion magnet motor is using both sides of the stator.  They're usually set up to work on only one side.  But using both sides would allow a stator capable of limited side-to-side movement to literally go around the gate and come back into the array after the gate.  With 2 arrays, one on each side of the stator, both arrays in repulsion to the stator, it would be possible to slip the stator around the gate.  Since there would be 2 gates, one for each array, for one full rotation it would be necessary to slip it around a gate twice each rotation.  And best of all, since the stator would not be hitting any repulsion from the gate, it should be possible to keep powering it as it slips around the gate.

I had given up on a magnet motor set up in repulsion mode because I had thought the magnets would wear each other out.  So I began looking into attraction mode.  Magnets that wear each other out are not viable for continued energy production, IMHO, because you would wind up spending the money you're not paying utilities on new replacement magnets, or at least on re magnetizing the worn out magnets.

But if you're right about neo magnets not wearing each other out in repulsion mode then I should be able to get a drum to spin continually and with as much horse power as I can afford to add by adding more arrays and stators.

And if I get this contraption working well enough to spin an alternator 24/7, I swear I'll come up with a parts list, assembly instructions, a printable layout of the magnet arrays and stators, and a cover sheet requesting that the person holding the packet Xerox more copies and give them away to others interested in getting off the grid----Free of charge.  I'm hoping for a packet of information that will allow people to make these motors in their garage at home using off the shelf parts only.  At that point it is up to the citizens around the world to make a change for the better as far as energy production is concerned.

So, I'm on this.  Wish me luck and let's hope I'm right about two arrays working in concert to slip around the gates.  ;D

Offline Charlie_V

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 02:03:39 PM »
I think that would work if the force that pushes the rotor around was greater than the sticky point.  But I think the main problem is that the sticky point is equal to if not greater than all the places around it.  That's why typical motors don't run because whatever they gain outside is lost at the sticky point.  Adding more gates isn't going to solve this problem either.  You'll get two sticky points and two areas with force less than both the sticky points. 

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 02:03:39 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 03:35:21 PM »
Hi Folks,

In another thread here http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5508.msg127010.html#msg127010  I wrote my thoughts on this shielding setup.  Would you mind commenting it either here or there?

rgds,  Gyula

Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 07:32:05 PM »
"I think that would work if the force that pushes the rotor around was greater than the sticky point.  But I think the main problem is that the sticky point is equal to if not greater than all the places around it.  That's why typical motors don't run because whatever they gain outside is lost at the sticky point.  Adding more gates isn't going to solve this problem either.  You'll get two sticky points and two areas with force less than both the sticky points."

Think in terms of two tracks working with a stator between them.  Those two tracks, in opposition to the stator, would hold the stator in the middle of the track.  Now think in terms of coming to the first gate, which is on only one side of the track.  Using that other track you should be able to "steer" your stator around that repelling gate so it never comes in contact with the repelling magnetic field in the first place.  Once past the gate the other side of the track should push the stator back to the middle and continue spinning.  Half way around the rotation, the gate for the other side of the track will arrive and this procedure would be repeated, only this time the stator would go around the gate in the opposite direction it did for the first gate.

In this way the gates should not have the chance to repel the stator.  Each side of the array would look like more like a spiral than a perfect circle.  And the stator would need to be hinged so it can move from side to side as the track carries it around the gate.  If you understand what I'm trying to get across and can use this technique then by all means please do so.  The more the merrier. ;)

I'm paying to have my drum built.  Once it's built my magnets should have arrived and I can put this to the test.  If successful everyone here will know it and I'll make sure the information to replicate is available.  Wish me luck.

Offline Charlie_V

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 08:34:06 PM »
But it won't push it to the side, it will stop at the point where it was suppose to be pushed.  Again the problem is the balancing of force.  Measure how much force it takes to push past the sticky point.  Then measure the amount of force around the rest of the ring that causes the rotor to spin. 

Quote
And the stator would need to be hinged so it can move from side to side as the track carries it around the gate.

I think I understand but the magnet will probably not want to be pushed back into the fray.  You would have to physically push the hinge otherwise the magnet will stop like hitting a wall, but please try.  It would be cool if it works.

Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Atraction motor vs repulsion motor question
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 09:16:38 PM »
One more thing I would like to understand.  In another discussion there was talk of neo magnets discharging due to eddy currents.  The discussion involved using soft iron for attraction, then a weak magnet in repulsion to counter the sticking point.  Is it the iron that caused the eddy currents or will I encounter these neo magnet killing eddy currents when putting neos in repulsion to other neos?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3979.0.html

In the setup I'm going to attempt, neo magnets will be repelling against neo magnets.  Will there be eddy currents that will discharge the magnets with this setup?

With the dual arrays working against the stator I believe I can get it to run in either repulsion or attraction mode---with a slight change in the array layout.  But if I can do it using repulsion as my motive force I'll have a lot more horsepower from fewer magnets.  So long as these eddy currents don't kill my magnets the repulsion setup is more desirable.

Thanks for letting me beat a dead horse one more time.

 

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