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Author Topic: Energy from gravitation  (Read 21327 times)

Gravitator

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Energy from gravitation
« on: September 05, 2008, 07:29:23 AM »
Hi all,

I have an innovation which produce energy from gravitation. No need to worry about weather conditions (wind, sun).
Just set up the Gravitator box (big, small) and it will produce kinetic energy that can be transform to something else.
I don't want to comersialized it myself or neighter get patent for it. Actually I don't want anyone get patent for it.

Now I want this innovation to be tested. Personally I don't have time or possibilites to do this myself.
Any suggestion how shoud I proceed with this?

The innovation is described at http://gravitator.org

br,
Gravitator

AB Hammer

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 08:08:17 PM »
Greetings Gravitator

 From what I have seen, yours is just a long line of attempts of the same thing. Even though not exactly the same but it has not been proven by you predecessors to work. There are always factors when dealing with water,oil, and others. My second design was with a light oil and IMO it is the best version out there but from experience of working with wheels I give it very low percent to work, which in other language of no chance, so I won't build it.


Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 02:18:35 PM »
Hi all,

 I made 6.9.2008 some modification at http://gravitator.org.

 I have done some homework at www.besslerwheel.com. From there I found from public forum following sentence:
 "Bessler said that IF we can find a way to raise a heavy weight with a smaller weight, we have found the answer."

 My idea for this is added at http://gravitator.org.

br,
Gravitator

Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 05:01:21 PM »
Hi AB Hammer,
 
Thank you. And sorry about this delay in my answer. I looked your image (the oil system) at the address 
you gave me at BesslerWheel.com. Looks really interesting and I can see really a lot of same elements 
that I have in my. What I have been thinking lately is the movement of pistons. I think that the closed 
systems try to find they balance as pairs where on the other side is a piston farther from central of wheel
than the opposite with moved liquid. These together can be (I guess, remember I'm not a professional 
in this are) think as equal from balance point of view. 
 
So I think that we have to think the Bessler's sentence "Bessler said that IF we can find a way to raise a 
heavy weight with a smaller weight, we have found the answer." quite seriously. I have added today my
answer to this question at my site/documents. What I'm still thinking is the timing issue. If we can
raise a heavy weight with smaller weight how should we do the timing in blocking the liquid flow in this kind 
of wheel? With this I mean that I think that the pairs have as alone a dead point. I think this can be solved 
in theory  two ways: The kinetic energy in the wheel will move the pair over the dead point or an other pair, 
which is not in balance moves the other one away from this dead point.
 
Please remember, that I'm not a professional in this area so there might be some trivial mistakes in my thinking.
 
 
br,
-michael

Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 09:20:53 PM »
Hi,

I don't know how to edit previous posts so I add a new one which tries to describe little bit more, what I wrote to AB Hammer.

Maybe attach image will describe little bit more about my thoughts of pistons, balance, timing etc.
In this picture the small weight have moved liquid from B2 to A2. I think it is obvious that the right side is heavier than left. So the Bessler's sentence is in this way achieved. The timing problem is that when liquid is moving from lover position to upper the wheel will turn too early - littel weight difference is enough to make this happen. And what I think with this is that in too early stage this will cause the problem that the system will hang. So as far as I understand the best situation would be that the wheel will turn after the desired amount of liquid have been moved up.

br,
Gravitator

TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 04:56:26 AM »
The mistake in your thinking is that, in your illustrated design, you are not using a light weight to raise a heavy weight. You are using a heavy weight to raise a light weight, and yes, the system will 'hang' as you put it, at the position where the center of mass of all the weights together is directly under the axle.
A further mistake is thinking that you can get any energy out of such a system. You can't, because gravity is a conservative force. This means that the Potential Energy of a weight is only dependent on its height, not the path it took to get there. The work available from a weight falling from a certain height, is the same as the work it takes to get it up to that height. Regardless of the path taken. Your device complicates things a little because it has varying weights at varying moment arms, but the result is the same. You get out, what you put in.
Sorry.

Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2008, 07:43:20 AM »
What I mean with using light weight to lift up heavy weight is described in attach picture. In my understanding in x time all the liquid (e.g. water) have been moved up from B to A. In other words: 100 kg pressure + 100 kg negative pressure moved 10 000 liters (10 000 kg) water. In this the light weight is 100 kg and the heavy weight is 10 000 kg (water).

TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 03:57:52 PM »
Of course, as you have drawn it, it will rotate in the other direction as long as the bottom tank is fuller than the top tank. And regardless of this, there is an equilibrium position where both weights push down equally on tanks that are equally full, with the total center of mass either at or below the axle. So the unit will "hang" at that point. This will likely be at the point where the 1-meter connecting tube is close to horizontal. Since you will have another set of tanks and weights mounted at 90 degrees, this will affect the hang point--the backwards thrust from one set of tanks will offset the forwards thrust from the other set, and the device will hang with the connecting tubes at close to 45-225 and 135-315 degrees. Put more sets on, the system still hangs at an equilibrium point.

You can't get over the fact that gravity is conservative. Clever geometries and intricate mechanisms won't help. The only way around this is to either change mass irreversibly (in which case you either run out or fill up, and stop) , or to add energy from outside the gravitating system.


broli

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 04:14:16 PM »
TK is right on this one but ignore his other preach about conservative fields. He seems to have forgotten where he is  ::).

Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 04:34:02 PM »
My problem seems to be that I'll talk about one part of the system at the time. Maybe this image will help to understand what Im looking after.
The liquid flow will be blocked immediatly after the liquid have been moved from bottom tank to top.

br,
Gravitator
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:05:51 PM by Gravitator »

Marctwo

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 05:09:01 PM »
So how do we stick a 10 ton water tank on the end of a pipe anyway?  :-\

LarryC

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 05:42:06 PM »
My problem seems to be that I'll talk about one part of the system at the time. Maybe this image will help to understand what Im looking after.
The liquid flow will be blocked immediatly after the liquid have been moved from bottom tank to top.

br,
Gravitator

Don't get discouraged. Instead of arguing with the pro skeptic(TK), just buy two collapsible water containers (camping type -$5.00), glue appropriate size weights to the side opposite the opening and attach a connecting hose to each opening. Glue side opposite weights to bottom of container boxes or buckets to reduce the side flexing. Set up as shown in your drawing.

For the first proof it doesn't even need a rotation mechanism. If that works then attach to a board with a lazy susan center mechanism, caster, chair swivel, etc.

If it doesn't work you'll have piece of mind, if it does show the world.

Good Luck,
Larry

PS: Any easier ideas welcomed.

   

TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 09:39:48 PM »
Yep, I agree with LarryC. It's an easy experiment to do. I'd do it myself if I had any hope that it would work.
I may do it anyway and make another video. But you have to realize that this device maps directly onto the design of many other force-assisted gravity wheels, and it isn't really that unique.
All wheel designers seem to go through the same phases: they have an idea that weight-shift will run a wheel. Then they realize that some extra force is needed, so they install springs or magnets or siphons or suction weights, then when they realize these don't help as intended they install latches or valves...the next step is to install electromagnets driven by a generator on the shaft--and when that doesn't work we use batteries to power the electromagnets...and so forth...

I'm the arch-skeptic that's true, but the reason why is that I see a lot of really creative and bright people with good skills and resources, wasting them on ideas that have been tried many times (and haven't a prayer anyway for good theoretical reasons), when a little research and meditation might save a lot of time and effort.

Gravitator

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 09:21:54 AM »
LarryC: "Don't get discouraged.". :) No I don't. Actually I think it is good to have pro skeptics in discussions to argue with.
After that you know that all the aspects have been discussed and if an pro skeptic thinks that it is experiment time, I think the
idea is in quite good phase.

TK: "and it isn't really that unique." I understand. I just haven's seen them so it is quite difficult to me see these mappings.
The first one was AB Hammers model and it gave me a lot of to think about - "I won't build it", based on experience with wheels !?!?
Something to think about.

TK: "Then they realize that some extra force is needed". I started to think this also from AB's model. And my answer to this
is to stop the wheel and get this extra energy from gravitation by waiting more water to be lifted up.


TK: "a little research and meditation might save a lot of time and effort." Well, I have come to the end of my meditations
with my wheel. At the idea level I have a piece of mind. What comes to problems when building a proto (Marctwo:So how do we stick
a 10 ton  water tank on the end of a pipe anyway?) is a diffrent story.


I have now updated my rethinked ideas at http://gravitator.org. Hopefully in easy to understand format ;)

TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from gravitation
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2008, 06:00:23 PM »
I came across this video today, and I thought of this thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fUlKBH1sY8