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2nd "law" violations => Heat to electric energy conversion => Topic started by: buzneg on August 25, 2008, 06:40:12 AM

Title: OU Pool heater?
Post by: buzneg on August 25, 2008, 06:40:12 AM
Google "kw to heat pool"
a see below for info.

http://www.poolstore.co.uk/shopscr486.html

Is this just one product/company?
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Yucca on August 25, 2008, 11:48:51 AM
Hi buzneg,

I've built my own solar pool heater for ?70 in parts, I've clocked it at 12KW in the hottest part of summer, and it always gives more than 1KW all year round. This heater gives my 60m3 pool a 2degC lift in the summer months here in spain, it doesn't sound much but it prolongs our swimming season from 3 months to almost four months. The design is great for hot tubs and manages to mantain 35+degC all year round on a 1m3 insulated tub.

Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Yucca on August 27, 2008, 03:09:17 PM
My last post I mentioned it increases swinning to almost 4 months, well it's more like easily 4 months. So it's adding 2 weeks to the shoulder periods of the swimming season.

The tube is 10mm black plastic irrigation pipe, good for 10 - 20 yrs in bright sunlight.

This is as good as free energy when you consider that <100? expediture gives you 10yr+ (more like 20yrs) of free heat, or with this system approximately 100,000 KWh of energy. At 5c per KWh, that's over ?5000 worth.

I am currently in the process of getting the stuff together for a solar hot water system, 5 kw panel with 100l insulated storage for nightime use, these are great systems capable of easily delivering 60degC water all year round. and enable you to eliminate electric water heating costs. You only need a few car radiators from a scrapyard underneath a large sheet of glass in a frame and an insulated water tank. The tank sits above the panel and a circulating flow happens without a pump as the hot water rises into the tank which in turn forces the cooler water back round to the heating panel. I expect to be paying <?100 in bits for this one too.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Steven Dufresne on August 27, 2008, 06:25:51 PM
Google "kw to heat pool"
a see below for info.

http://www.poolstore.co.uk/shopscr486.html

Is this just one product/company?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. There are many companies that make solar pool heating systems. Here are two that I've installed the most as a solar contractor:
 http://technosolis.com/
 http://enersol.com/
If you're asking about calculations. Each company has it's own calculators on their website.
 http://technosolis.com/panelcalculator.htm
 http://www.enersol.com/content/view/18/44/
And for more information, I've tried to put as much as I know here:
 http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/solarpool.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: buzneg on August 29, 2008, 12:45:26 AM
I didn't know these heat pumps were solar, and didn't read it anywhere.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Yucca on August 29, 2008, 02:14:23 AM
OK buzneg, I think I know what you're talking about now: it's a mechanical water heater using rotating cylinder with holes drilled in it, this rotates in a close fitting sleeve with holes in it too. The shear forces cause cavitation of the water which gives more heat out than mechanical energy in.

I'm not sure of the name of these devices, but I remember seeing a video where one was installed in a firestation as a water heater for the firecrew, the local university checked it out and yes, it was disobeying thermodynamic "laws".

Sorry if my solar post was off topic but I didn't know what you were getting at with the first post.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: z.monkey on August 29, 2008, 03:58:48 AM
Howdy Yucca,

Nice spirals.  Excelente!  I have a brother in Germany who is building a black tube solar water heater to supply the hot water in his loft.  That radiant energy is everywhere...

Blessed be...
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: myrmex on August 29, 2008, 05:19:30 AM
OK buzneg, I think I know what you're talking about now: it's a mechanical water heater using rotating cylinder with holes drilled in it, this rotates in a close fitting sleeve with holes in it too. The shear forces cause cavitation of the water which gives more heat out than mechanical energy in.

I'm not sure of the name of these devices, but I remember seeing a video where one was installed in a firestation as a water heater for the firecrew, the local university checked it out and yes, it was disobeying thermodynamic "laws".

Sorry if my solar post was off topic but I didn't know what you were getting at with the first post.


i beleive you're talking about this one here :

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&feature=related
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Yucca on August 29, 2008, 09:49:44 PM
Yep, that's exactly it, in fact that's a clip off the very TV program I've seen.

So the subject in hand is called "Hydro-Sonic Pump" or HSP.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: buzneg on August 30, 2008, 03:40:13 AM
This is what I'm talking about, I guess it is powered by the sun.

http://www.heat-perfector.fr/

Check out their pump, and heat exchanger. These things put out a lot of KW. and the 30KW (37-6) is only 3 cubed. If something could only convert the heat to KW efficiently.. even 10 or 20% efficient.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Steven Dufresne on August 30, 2008, 04:03:41 PM
This is what I'm talking about, I guess it is powered by the sun.

http://www.heat-perfector.fr/

Check out their pump, and heat exchanger. These things put out a lot of KW. and the 30KW (37-6) is only 3 cubed. If something could only convert the heat to KW efficiently.. even 10 or 20% efficient.

The heat energy does come from the sun, but in an indirect way. The air around the unit is heated by the sun. This hot air is sucked into the unit and compressed. If you increase the pressure of a gas you also increase it's temperature. So the result of the compression is even hotter air. This hotter air is then run through a heat exchanger to transfer the heat to the pool water. There's a very good diagram of this on the above webpage.

This idea has been talked about for years in OU forums. The principle is much like using energy to pump oil from the ground. The oil contains potential energy in its chemical bonds. When you burn that oil you can get more energy out than you used to pump it out of the ground. In fact you can use some of the oil run the pump while selling the remaining oil. You're not creating new energy. The energy came from the sun to grow the plants, which eventually got buried and then compressed by gravitational energy to create the oil in the first place.

In the case of this heat pump, the sun heats the air and the air acts much like a fluid that stores this heat energy. The purpose of the pump is just to move the heat energy containing hot air from one place to another. So the amount of heat energy in the air can be greater than the energy used to run the pump.

The reason for compressing the air, to the best of my knowledge, is to increase the temperature so that the heat transfer is more efficient. The greater the temperature difference between the pool water and the hot air, the more efficient the heat energy transfer (someone correct me if I'm wrong.) There is no energy gain in this step. Work is done by the compressor.

A ground source heat pump uses the heat in the ground to heat a fluid which is circulated by pipes underground, or just takes water from a well. The ground is heated by the sun. The advantage here is that here in southern Canada, around 2 meters down, the ground is a constant 12 degrees celsius (54 fahrenheit) all year round. This constant temperature is true everywhere, although just what the constant temperature is will differ. The ground acts as a heat storage medium.

So potentially this could work. My understanding is it's the losses in converting that heat energy into a form of energy that can run the pump and then the losses in the pumping itself that have prevented people from making self-running versions.

And before stirling engines are brought up, a coffee cup stirling engine doesn't require much temperature difference but also isn't very powerful. More powerful stirling engines require a greater temperature difference to work which means the compressor will have to do a lot of work to create that temperature difference. But don't let that stop anyone from innovating. I'd love to see someone make this work.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: buzneg on September 01, 2008, 03:42:46 AM
I guess the evaporation is cooling down the pool, or the pool cools at night, there must be a temperature difference for this to happen. Evaporation does create a temperature difference as well as carry vapour up against gravity.
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: Steven Dufresne on September 01, 2008, 07:25:48 PM
@buzneg,
Typically the solar pool heating systems heat the pool up to 100F. That's usually the maximum setting on their automatic control systems. Assuming that's the case then I'd guess that the temperature of the refrigerant coming out of the compressor in the heat pump system is significantly more than 100F, giving you your temperature difference.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: pauljohn on February 11, 2010, 10:53:01 PM
Hi yucca,can you tell me the length of tubing used in your pool heating coil ?
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: tadejstenta on February 12, 2010, 11:59:47 PM
yucca

I have similar system at my home, but i´m not content with it. Somehow i get the air in the tubes (i think through pool water pump) and due the close loop of the PVC tube (aprox. 80 meters) there is almost no way to get it out of the tube.

I will made my self similar sun heater, but this time with old radiator for house heating. Hot water from radiator will heating up water boiler with clean water from pool inside. I had this system already set up past year, but due to poor performance (leaking radiator, sthiropor for back insulation-it melted, ...) i decided to rebuilt it. It was a good system and for comparison with other systems: radiators had 4 square meters - closed in wooden box, sthiropor insulation on back - down side, in upper side it was covered with clearness PVC foil. hen i pump water from house pipe in it in one side, on the otlet side water was almost to hot for shower. In the time outside was arround 28 deg.C.
Just want to share,
tadej


Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: mscoffman on February 13, 2010, 09:30:16 PM
yucca

I have similar system at my home, but i´m not content with it. Somehow i get the air in the tubes (i think through pool water pump) and due the closed loop of the PVC tube (aprox. 80 meters) there is almost no way to get it out of the tube.


I had a similar experience with a completely different kind of
system,a turbopump seemed to do it. I expected to need
an air return circuit but the pump drew the return air back
through the water flow hose! It seemed very intent on
operating that way. Unexpected and convenient for my
design but very disturbing for my expectations.

You might try one of those collapsible-tube roller pumps
perhaps a dual stage one that can simultaneously put
suction on the return line. There must be some way
to do this.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: OU Pool heater?
Post by: tadejstenta on February 13, 2010, 11:50:04 PM
mscoffman

I want to build the system with minimal cost and from materials I hawe at home already. I had try to make one and I had good results with it  8). I will yust rebuilt it. will post some pics of it, but must resize the file ???