Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83996
  • *Latest: sb

  • *Total Posts: 892927
  • *Total Topics: 15675
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 13
  • *Total: 16

Author Topic: Electromagnet power transfer question.  (Read 16825 times)

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4068
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2008, 11:58:21 PM »

 If I understand it right the flyback shouldn't effect the over idea of my design but could be adapted to improve over all functionality?


Right,  it does not affect anything but helps increase overall efficiency by regaining some part of the input power you already furnished in,  this way the input power consumption can be reduced.  For this early time in the development, no need for it.

Gyula
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 12:20:58 AM by gyulasun »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2008, 11:58:21 PM »

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4068
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2008, 12:14:21 AM »

Is there certain shapes of magnetic cores that are more efficient? For example, do magnetic fields travel better through a curve or a sharp 90 degree angle or both equally? 

I am not aware of any such problem this may cause I do think it can be disregarded. Flux follows its guide by all means, be it curved or rectangular.

Quote
In config4, I just want to double check that by simple turning the wire in opposite direction on C and D will combine the two poles to produce one pulse in the output coil? 

Not sure on this question but assume you mean the turning sense of windings on either C or D coils can be made to get the sum of the two induced voltages, like you connect two 12V batteries to get a single 24V voltage source?

Quote
I would assume it would be better to have the core be as small as possible to reduce resistance? Would I potentially run into problems if the input [primary] coil is right next to [but divided] the output [secondary] coil, or should I given them a little space? 

If you mean if it is a problem for the input and output coils to magnetically couple into each other due to being very close to each other, then letting a certain space is better.  What do you mean by "to reduce resictance"  wrt the core size / smallness?? What resistance?

Gyula

Offline Nali2001

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2008, 01:09:46 AM »
Right,  it does not affect anything but helps increase overall efficiency by regaining some part of the input power you already furnished in,  this way the input power consumption can be reduced.  For this early time in the development, no need for it.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,
Well I have to disagree with you on this one.
Capturing the 'flyback' is not at all without consequences.
In this video you see a core with a coil being powered with a 50%duty dc square wave.
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/ClampCore.wmv

(Also note that the used circuit has no diode on the fet to protect if from the flyback spikes.)
But anyway, you can see that without the flyback capture the core is experiencing 'soft attraction'. Since the core can "relax" or loose its magnetism between the 50% off cycles of the square wave. Well, then in the video the diode and bulb-load is attached and the light you see is from the captured flyback. But now there is a change in the core to core attraction. You can now see that the cores are dead solid attracted which means that although the coil is only on for 50% of the cycle the cores are experiencing a 100% full 'on' magnetic field. What is happening is that the capture diode and bulb is preventing the core to 'relax' or in other words prevent to core to naturally get back into a near zero magnetic level in between each dc pulse. Well you understand that this effect is only really working in a close looped core condition. But other then that you might say 'so what' when the core is full magnetic all the time.. But one must understand that this now eliminates the core to be used as a dc pulse transformer since there is now (almost) no change in field strength anymore. And the shown systems above are just that.., dc transformers. I have found that flyback capturing is not always a plus. Since in close looped single polarity pulse situations it just "locks up" the core. Which is not what you want in these meg like systems... You want the core to self reset its level of magnetism in between each dc pulse. Since it is obviously not wanted that the core still has 90% of the remaining magnetism from the last pulse, since then there will only be 10% field change at max.

(Tim, these things are for example what I mean when I say 'there is more to it' and 'not that simple')

Regards,
Steven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2008, 01:09:46 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2008, 07:49:28 AM »
Steven,

I know its all over my head and really complex. In-spite of doing back to school for a few years to learn this specific tech all I can do is push in a direction and learn everything I can as I go along. I also wish not to spend any money testing ideas that I can simply learn the results and ideas from others [that are willing to share]. Thanks by the way.

I just wanted to get something on here that I heard from a guy that works at the University in my town. I'm not sure of his credentials but he works with people at the U that are working on things like this. He was trying to tell me something about how a large factor that gets over looked is the gases that are around the magnets while they run can effect the performance. Talking about "a lot to it"! I just had to nod my head and say "ok... sure". I have never heard of this.

Tim

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4068
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2008, 11:51:06 PM »
Hi Steven,

Thank you for bringing this up,  unfortunately I forgot to consider the cores are closed in Config4 of course and the created current by the flyback pulse makes a flux stream that magnetizes the core in the off input periodes with a magnetic polarity that adds to flux made by the on time part periode of the input current, hence a continuous attraction.  Sorry for this, in my mind I concentrated on flyback current capture of a 'normal' pulse motor where the cores are mainly open, not closed.

I think if you modify the flyback capture by first charging up a capacitor through the diode by the flyback pulse, then you discharge the capacitor through a second switch to the lamp and this discharge would be made under the off time of the input square wave, (when the first switch is off) then you could reduce the full magnetization of the core by the flyback current during the off time  because in this case the magnetizing current will be the charging current going into the capacitor only ( which is an exponentially decreasing current so its energy content is also decreasing, unlike to the full 'normal' flyback current).  I have not tried this yet, this is theory at the moment, and I do not feel a very good solution for the problem though.

Thanks for the excellent video too.

Regards,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2008, 11:51:06 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2008, 06:14:21 PM »
I'm currently researching the properties of a toroid and I was wondering if you could help me answer a few questions that I have. So from that I have found a Toroidal magnetic field travels in a loop inside the circle of the core and is relatively self shielded. Meaning that if you touches a piece of metal to the side of it while it was on, that piece of metal would not be attracted to it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjcdJ1wSQJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edqGNOrW1GM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_inductors_and_transformers

Also, a toroid is another type of transformer correct? So if you have two windings on a toroid or primary and one secondary you can input/output power with minimal loss just like a normal transformer?

The last question I have is if you have a toroid that's powered would a magnet be attracted to it or what might be the interaction?

Tim

Offline Nali2001

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 07:35:13 PM »
Hi Tim,
Yes a Toroidal core or O-core is for transformers and such. It has better characteristics than the 'normal' E I type "square" transformers since there are less losses and the geometry is optimized. Normal transformers are made or 2 parts welded together. This introduces a small airgap loss and due to the weld you also increase the eddy current losses. So normal transformers are more leaky then O-core transformers. Another advantage is that O-core transformers are made wound from a long grain aligned strip of transformer steel. This also causes them to have a higher saturation limit. But.... they are hard to wind then therefore not used very often.

If a piece of metal is interacting with a working transformer it means that the transformer is leaking.

Yes a magnet will still be attracted to a ('any type') transformer even if highly saturated since the steel is still attracting and also there is a less known thing about transformers/magnetism and that is that they can have a magnetic field independent in all 3 axes (X Y Z) due to the spin theory of magnetism. That means you can wind on a suitable core in each axes a transformer coil arrangement and have them working independent from each other. So independent transformers on one core. As long as there is only one transformer per X,Y, or Z axes. Therefore a core is only really saturated when saturated in all the 3 axes. With normal transformer windings they are only magnetized in one dimension/orientation. To learn more about this you could see this patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=nDA3AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4210859#PPA1,M1

Regards,
Steven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 07:35:13 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2008, 03:34:40 AM »
How can the Bulgarian system work [theoretically] if the magnetic field of the magnets are still attracted to the toroid? I thought the idea was that the saturation of the toroid blocked the field of the PM so the PM field would go a different rout?

Tim

Offline Nali2001

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2008, 02:16:49 PM »
The field of a magnets must always close loop and follow the path of least resistance. Although the material might still be 'attractive' for the magnet it can not 'host' the field of the magnet. It is already 'full' of magnetism and can not support more. Hence the term saturated. So in the saturated state, it is not a 'path of least resistance' Don't confuse magnetic attractiveness with the ability the support the fields. A paper clip is also attracted to a magnet but can not support the fields.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2008, 02:16:49 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2008, 07:14:21 PM »
Thanks Steven! That's what I had thought but I wasn't sure. I appreciate your time and input.

So now what about the problem of the core touching the toroid at the top and bottom? Would this have a large effect on the loss from the toroid? [I do plan to test these ideas for myself but I just want to see what I can find out in advance.]

Could you run the toroid like a transformer and collect the AC back out with minimal loss while still saturating the core?



It seems that if you can use the toroid like a transformer with two separate coils [primary/secondary and recover 90%+] and the toroid would saturate the core enough to cause the PM flux to divert and jump the air gap then this would be a better design. A little more complicated but like you said it could run off AC. Compared to Jack's valve it would have less flux field generated since Jack's is estimated at up to 4 time increase and the Bulgarians would only be the strength of just less then the PM field. Correct?

What other problems would there be?

Thanks,

Tim

Offline spinner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2008, 11:05:04 PM »
Good thread and discussions!

Please, consider this:

The only energy transfer/exchange mechanism in magnetics  is a rate of change of mag. flux (dFIux/dt) which enables the induction (and all the consecutive effects...).

"Static" magnetic fields (like PM) cannot "transfer/exchange energy", unless there's another (external) energy source introduced, e.g. a mechanical energy (motion!), which is (so far) still a CoE dependable process...

So if you include permanent magnets in your's EM circuit (like MEG transformers, etc), the end result is just a magnetically "biased" inductive coupling... Which still means you cannot get out more than you put in originally despite the PM's "FE" involvement....

Anyway, such experiments are rather easily reproducible (coil(s), different cores and types of PMs & bacic measuring equipment (scope!))... Do not forget about correct measurement methods...
According to physics definitions, an alleged "OU" self-induced (closed system) EM circuit (like transformer) should work if output is feed back to input with a possibility to "drain" out the surplus of energy....
That would be nice, eh?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2008, 11:05:04 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2008, 07:08:17 AM »
Spinner, thanks for your input. What does '"FE" involvement' mean?

What are your thoughts on the video posted at the beginning of this thread? Does the increase of around 2 times the attraction force not lend itself to conclude that with the same power input [as an EM that should be 95%+ efficient] you get 2 and possibly 4 times the magnetic attraction [field density]?

The test I want to run at some point would go something like this.

I would start off with a primary cap. that is empty. I would charge it to a level of 1 unit [generically speaking]. Then discharge that cap into the coil on the c-core EM [primary]. This should produce one pulse which would cause the PM/EMs field to jump through the alternate path which is wrapped with a induction coil [secondary]. The field density at the secondary coil should be equal to 2-4 times the density of the primary coil? Thus you should be able to pull off 2-4 times the voltage as the initial pulse? Then some how capture that charge into a few caps. Then with 2-4 units of energy stored you should be able to transfer 1 unit of energy back to the primary cap and recharge it thus setting it up for another discharge while having additional power in the secondary caps left over?

Sorry for the bad terminology, its late. I know its a gross generalisation.

Again from the video it seems you should be able to achieve one full pulse with an increase of flux density greater then what should be expected?

good night,

Tim

Offline spinner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2008, 10:55:19 AM »
Spinner, thanks for your input. What does '"FE" involvement' mean?
Thanks! ... Ah, never mind... I was just trying to point out one of the more "popular misconceptions" about magnetics (PM), namely, that PM's are a source of 'Free Energy'.... So far(!), they're still just a source of a magnetic Force.... Like gravity,... A Potential (!!!) Energy.
A permanent magnet, if observed as a "thermodynamic system" from the "outside", has a ZERO sum of ALL the (vector) potentials. No energy  without changing other parameters like a movement (NEWTONIAN! mechanics))....

Quote
What are your thoughts on the video posted at the beginning of this thread? Does the increase of around 2 times the attraction force not lend itself to conclude that with the same power input [as an EM that should be 95%+ efficient] you get 2 and possibly 4 times the magnetic attraction [field density]?
An EM can be >95% efficient. But that's (so far) all about it... You should not mix "OU" with a "field concentrating" mechanisms like a geometry & substance dependable ones (core types, etc).
If you look, for instance, at the parabolic antennas, they're not the "OU".. They can practicly concentrate an  EM field/energy, still, no OU....
In the same way you can look at the magnetic flux concentracing methods (cores with a higher ur than that of the the empty space, the geometry implementations (toroids), etc,,etc...)

Quote
The test I want to run at some point would go something like this.
I would start off with a primary cap. that is empty. I would charge it to a level of 1 unit [generically speaking]. Then discharge that cap into the coil on the c-core EM [primary].
The cost of charging a cap is a well known, a "CoE" process. You can charge it (store the energy) to the nominal values, but there are always some losses involved....
By definition, you loose some (parts of ) percent(s) to charge a cap to a nominal value. (Ohmic & many other (dynamic) losses like EM/radiation, electro-chemistry,..)...
Discaharging a Cap to the coils bring another (CoE obedient) process... After all, the real LC circuits (in any situation) have never been recognised as a source of possible OU.... Which implies that active el. components (diodes, transistors,..) are even worst when it comes to this....
Quote
This should produce one pulse which would cause the PM/EMs field to jump through the alternate path which is wrapped with a induction coil [secondary]. The field density at the secondary coil should be equal to 2-4 times the density of the primary coil? Thus you should be able to pull off 2-4 times the voltage as the initial pulse? Then some how capture that charge into a few caps. Then with 2-4 units of energy stored you should be able to transfer 1 unit of energy back to the primary cap and recharge it thus setting it up for another discharge while having additional power in the secondary caps left over?
Sorry for the bad terminology, its late. I know its a gross generalisation.
Again from the video it seems you should be able to achieve one full pulse with an increase of flux density greater then what should be expected? ... good night,
Tim
The "jumping of an EM field"... is related to a Natural Law which is tending to acchieve the "path of a least resistance"  (this is a centuries old state of the fact when observing the Nature and IMHO, one of the most important ones), a Natural law to achieve minimal potential (energy) state... ... The releasing of a lightning, the wind/pressure../humidity../temperature... differences... They all tends to the state of a minimal potential energy possible .... Entropy is another mechanism to describe this.  Nature allways finds a way to "release" or relaxes itself in some way..

The balance (or even increase) of an energy in such mechanisms is... well... not easily defendable (it goes against classical understanding of Nature/physics...

At the end, if someone would introduce a concept which would successfully broke a current understanding of a CoE principle, then....

How about producing a working model? I mean, theories are good for our tinkering/mental training, yet....

What is wrong with a Bearden claims? His theory is indeed intriguing, but (you may have noticed), there's actually not a single MEG which would work as claimed...
Anyone who can indisputably show a "FE" working device (IN PRACTICE), would win...

Cheers!

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2008, 07:15:48 AM »
If anyone is still reading this thread I had another question. How does the size of a transformer core effect the energy transfer? In the graphic below you see a funny looking transformer. Two coils A and B. Both A and B have the same number of turns of wire however the core within B is larger. How would this affect the transfer if A is the primary and B is the secondary coil? Would this make any difference?

Another random question: Do the cores of transformers operate at, below, or near the saturation point of their core material?

Thanks

Tim

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 12:25:25 AM »
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5425.msg123290#msg123290

Sorry it’s taken me so long to post these findings. In regard to Steven’s thoughts quoted above I have tested this concept and found that this configuration does indeed work. I don’t know if you can pull power off of it, but it does act the way I thought. Below is a graphic of the configuration.  Also I have attached a video showing this action.

Sorry Steven, I was mistaken about being wrong in my e-mail. At first I tried to connect the valve to another core that had the notch cut out where the coil goes. It didn’t attract as strong as a solid core. But then I realize that I should have had the magnets and connecting bar on it to simulate the actual configuration. This provided enough material for the flux to travel through. Not only does it attract as hard but it seems to even attract harder because the magnets on the other core are opposite polarity so when the valve turns on all the magnets attract.

Plus in the below configuration as one valve turns on it should send an opposite polarity through the other core which would help keep the cores from becoming polarized [not having enough time to lose there polarity].

If you put secondary coils at points C and D [connected] then I would think you should be able to pullout an AC current. That’s the idea anyways.

Video: http://www.abcwag.com/PC020029.MOV [9.4MB] It takes a while to down load and will play in your browser.

 

OneLink