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Author Topic: Electromagnet power transfer question.  (Read 16827 times)

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 06:30:43 AM »
Of course I have another question.

Would it [if at all] be better to design it to produce an AC current like in config4 or to set it up to store the DC pulse in a battery and then convert it to AC? Would one be simpler to build/test then the other?

Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 06:30:43 AM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 01:10:04 PM »

Is there any other problems you can foresee? Or does it simply come down to testing to see if the PM actually adds to the flux field of the EM?


It does.  But Steven already showed in his video it does, no? My previous letter showed a step further in separating input power from output power by referring the Bulgarian MEG setup.
Any pitfalls that may occur from now on, can only come out by practice. I am presently not aware of any more foreseeable ones.  Of course the usual, so far not mentioned obvious pitfalls like core saturation and loss are assumed to be handled correctly.

Quote
Would it [if at all] be better to design it to produce an AC current like in config4 or to set it up to store the DC pulse in a battery and then convert it to AC? Would one be simpler to build/test then the other?

I think what could be done is to capture the flyback pulse at the input coils for further process to reduce input power comsumption and let coils C and D produce the AC, the frequency and the waveform of this AC may not be optimum for your load but I think they should be an optimum for the whole setup,  and solve the output AC to be favorable for you after that, independently from the setup.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 06:35:04 PM »
But Steven already showed in his video it does, no?

Yes his video is fairly conclusive. However, as you can see I try not to assume anything. I plan on ordering parts next week.

My previous letter showed a step further in separating input power from output power by referring the Bulgarian MEG setup.

 Given the language barrier I can't read that site and I'm not too familiar with the concepts.

I think what could be done is to capture the flyback pulse at the input coils for further process to reduce input power consumption...

I am also not familiar on how this can be done. Do you have any links to resources explaining how to do this?

Thanks for the help,

Tim


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 06:35:04 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2008, 12:10:04 AM »
I think what could be done is to capture the flyback pulse at the input coils for further process to reduce input power consumption...

I am also not familiar on how this can be done. Do you have any links to resources explaining how to do this?


Tim,   here is a member coming just in time: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5446.0.html

rgds,  Gyula

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2008, 02:46:31 AM »
Gyila,

Thanks for the link. I'm still not sure how it works but I need to read into it more. Is capturing some of, if not all, BEMF "flyback" actually possible or is it still theoretical? I don't think it is nesisary in my design but if it would add to the effecincy then why not?

Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2008, 02:46:31 AM »
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Offline bobo36us2

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2008, 03:03:52 AM »
@ Tim,

You may have already seen this, but there may be some useful
information for you here: http://free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter3.pdf

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2008, 09:24:05 PM »
@ Tim,

You may have already seen this, but there may be some useful
information for you here: http://free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter3.pdf

Hi, I checked it out but most of it is hypothetical. And the ones that say they do work but only in a lab or with special materials are probably scams. If it works at all in a lab or anywhere the science world would be turned on its head. That's another topic though. There is some ideas I hadn't heard of and some really close to what I'm working on but that document only "talks" about them and doesn't really explain how they work.

Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2008, 09:24:05 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2008, 09:49:32 PM »
I'm still looking into all the factors that this involves and I was just wondering if I could get more input on a few of the variable?

Is there certain shapes of magnetic cores that are more efficient? For example, do magnetic fields travel better through a curve or a sharp 90 degree angle or both equally?

In config4, I just want to double check that by simple turning the wire in opposite direction on C and D will combine the two poles to produce one pulse in the output coil?

I would assume it would be better to have the core be as small as possible to reduce resistance? Would I potentially run into problems if the input [primary] coil is right next to [but divided] the output [secondary] coil, or should I given them a little space?

I'm still a little fuzzy with the "flyback" concept. Does a simple transformer have flyback?

Is there actually a way to capture flyback that's tested and true and used in everyday technology?

Thanks,

Tim




Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 10:06:56 PM »

I'm still a little fuzzy with the "flyback" concept. Does a simple transformer have flyback?

Is there actually a way to capture flyback that's tested and true and used in everyday technology?

Thanks,

Tim 

Hi,  this seems ok:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_converter

2) http://www.dos4ever.com/flyback/flyback.html

Gyula



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 10:06:56 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2008, 10:32:54 PM »
Thanks Gyula,

Those links helped. I have no idea how to do the math but I feel a little more confident in the idea. If I understand it right the flyback shouldn't effect the over idea of my design but could be adapted to improve over all functionality?

Any opinions about my other questions?

Tim

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2008, 12:14:31 AM »
Hi there Tim and the rest,
Nice to see your are diving into the deep.
I have seen your 'with magnet' setup and a big issue in my opinion is, that regardless of the air gaps the fields of the magnets will just connect up with each other and remain in a magnet-to-magnet much preferred closed loop, and stay there. (see attached image) Building an ac driven system ala Hildenbrand valve with these concepts is really tricky. Essentially they are dc pulsed systems, and since we need a specific magnetic orientation each time the need for dc is obvious. But building an efficient power transferring system with dc is hard. You can not hammer the core with dc and expect to get ac like efficiencies. Easy to try, take an transformer and drive it with a 50%duty dc square wave and see what you get out, the train of dc pulses is not causing a big enough flux polarity change for good efficiency, you will be smacking amps in not time, saturating the core. That is why ac is the bomb for transformers.The Bulgarian system is way different since it does not really dc 'push' the magnets field out to the power output side, it works by saturating one O-core and so set up a barrier or a path of very heavy resistance. That is why the Bulgarian systems can be driven with an ac signal since it is the saturation that counts.

Anyway if you plan on testing your system, always use laminated steel from transformers and stuff. Your C-shaped cores can be found here: http://alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39634.474294 They have a wide range of cheap cores. Only thing is that you need to machine them. That means you must have the means to take out that metal section seen then the MagnetExtraPower video. But this is way more difficult than you think since the metal laminations are only held together with glue and will just fly apart when machined without knowing what you are doing.

Regards.
Steven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2008, 12:14:31 AM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2008, 01:15:19 AM »
Steven, Exultant point about the magnets! Plus, this is all "diving into the deep" for me so I might as wall go all the way.

One thought I had to fix the magnet problem is to do something like whats shown in the picture below. This may open up other problems but its an idea.?

Tim

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2008, 02:20:03 AM »
"The Bulgarian system is way different since it does not really dc 'push' the magnets field out to the power output side, it works by saturating one O-core and so set up a barrier or a path of very heavy resistance. That is why the Bulgarian systems can be driven with an ac signal since it is the saturation that counts."

Looking closer at the Bulgarian's work it really is the same thing as Jack's valve but instead of using a simple coil electromagnet as a shunt they use a o-core [toroid]. That make a lot of since to me now! Being a novice, how does the power transfer of the toroid work?

So does the AC used to power the toroid not saturate the core?

Is the idea that the toroid consumes less power while providing enough flux to divert the PM flux path, or is it that there is a way to recover some of the energy used to run the toroid? I'm not sure about this.

Does the toroid act the same even if its in contact with the rest of the system?

Tim

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2008, 04:42:52 AM »
Hi Tim,
Well I would not call the Bulgarian system the same as the other know systems. It works on a 'novel' different approach.
Simply put one O-core side is driven into (near) saturation and so the core is 'full' and will not support any more magnetic fields. So the magnet see this as a no-go area and has to find another route.

So you see the O core acts as a resistor or a blockade for the field of the magnet. This can be done with Dc or Ac.

Well you have to find an optimal input level since you want near saturation so one can use a variac to tune the ac input.

Well I have not seen any references with the Bulgarian system that they have some kind of input recovery. Only that it is highly likely that the input is a high Q resonant system as well.

But my opinion is that you should start simple. With a static Jack valve for testing at first. Since although the Bulgarian system is in my opinion a very good idea, it is not all that plug and play.

Regards,
Steven


Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2008, 06:32:36 AM »
"Well I have not seen any references with the Bulgarian system that they have some kind of input recovery. Only that it is highly likely that the input is a high Q resonant system as well. "

When you say "high Q resonant"  do you[they] mean it might take less energy to saturate the o-core then the gain produced by the switching of the flux?

Going back to jacks valve and the saturation due to the DC pulse at high frequency, could you not simply just pulse it at 1Hz or as fast as you can and capture the output in a cap? I'm not too concerned with making it stream lined but just to see any kind of a gain. You can charge a cap with just a dc pulse can't you?

What lit my fire on this tech is seeing your [Steven] demonstration of the increase in holding force. It seemed to be a visual confirmation of potential.

Tim

 

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