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Author Topic: Electromagnet power transfer question.  (Read 16826 times)

Offline nwman

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Electromagnet power transfer question.
« on: August 20, 2008, 06:35:51 AM »
Thanks for taking a moment to read this thread. I'm just looking to increase my knowledge of how electromagnetism works. I'm not trying to prove any idea in this thread but to get help understanding how a certain electromagnet configuration would perform in a certain configuration. I'm going to try and keep this as simple as possible. I do consider myself a novice in this field so please forgive my ignorance. Ok, on with the idea.

Below is simple graphic of the configuration of the electromagnets. There are two A and B. The electromagnets' core is made of grain oriented laminated steel. The polarity alignment of the two are opposing (N to S).

There are two connecting bars (C and D) that have induction coils wrapped around them. These are made of the same Material as the cores and have small air gaps between them.

So, please point out any misconception I have about how this would work. Say both electromagnets (EM) are off (A and B). Now lets say you started to energize (pulse) A and B at opposite times thus making an alternating current relative to the C and D coils.

-At this point would you receive two separate and opposite wave length AC currents from coils C and D?
-Would there be back EMF in the system or would it continue to function normally?
-Is there a way to combine the two separate / opposite AC currents into one AC current without great loss?
-The main question I had, if it would operate as I imagine, is what would be a "conservative estimate" of the amount of ?loss? from the power put into A and B to the amount of power that could be collected at C and D? Would it be 10% 20% 50% etc....
- Any other comments or questions?

Thanks for your help.

Tim

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 08:39:24 AM »
It's an interesting question. Some points come to mind:
First, there isn't any way to estimate the efficiency based on the description, because so much depends on the materials and the exact geometry.
Second, whatever the efficiency, those air gaps will decrease it. I don't understand why you think they are needed.
Third, as soon as you begin pulsing one or both the coils A and B, the coils C and D will begin responding with a sinusoidal voltage swing, i.e. AC.  Just hook the coils in series if you want to "combine" them.
Fourth, there is BEMF whenever you "turn off" an electromagnet coupled to a coil.
Fifth, there will most likely be a resonant frequency of pulsation of the A and B coils that will give the maximum power transfer or even an actual resonant voltage rise in the "secondary" formed by the C and D coils.

By the way, what you have described is pretty darn close to being a transformer, but they usually take pains to omit the air gaps in transformer design.

Offline Honk

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 09:29:59 AM »
Winding a coil around a permanent magnet will give you no output what so ever, simply
because you cannot affect the "hard" magnetism of a permanent magnet by a surrounding coil.
This is the difference between "soft magnetics" vs "hard magnetics".
http://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/products/index.htm

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 09:29:59 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 11:23:55 AM »
@Honk

Dear Honk,  would you mind reading Tim's description on his setup again,  there is no permanent magnets involved but all the cores are made from laminations. The poles indicated in the picture are from the electromagnets in one moment I think.

@Tim

I tend to agree with TinselKoala's opinions  [except his Third statement: the waveform of the output coils will be also pulse-like shapes like at the  input, sinusoidal waveforms can only come out when you tune the output (or the input) coils into resonance with the pulse frequency].
So basically your setup seems a normal transformer. When you switch on one of the EM's coils say A (the other coil, B is off as you mean), flux can flow through the closed magnetic path (assuming small air gaps): this corresponds to  the situation of a normal AC transformer primary coil excited with AC and the half periode of this AC wave sends flux through the core in one direction. 
Next, you switch off  A and switch on B with polarity as you showed, this corresponds to the normal transformer's primary coil excited with the other half periode of its AC waveform that sends the flux through the core in the other direction.

Do you mean on back EMF the pulse that is created when you switch off the current in any inductive coil?  If so, I prefer calling it flyback pulse, and of course those flyback pulses appear across your EM coils whenever you switch their current off.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline Honk

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 12:00:06 PM »
Opps, sorry. I've never encountered a drawing on a regular transformer device using dedicated N/S polarization.
In all cases there has always been pemanent magnets inserted and the N/S show direction. Like the MEG.

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 12:00:06 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 11:40:17 PM »
@TinelKoala

Thanks for the input. In regard to your comment about materials and geometry, and without compromising the basic arrangement, is there a way to greatly optimize this ?relative? transformer? Also given that the air gaps would be razor thin (they may not be needed). I?m just hoping for something that would have less then 20% loss given professional construction.

In regard to the BEMF or ?flyback? how, if at all, would this hinder the transfer of power through this configuration? Would simply having something drawing power out of the C,D coils remove the BEMF? I?m still fairly green to this concept.

Also, is the graphic config2.gif what you mean about ?hook the coils in series??

@Gyulasun

Thank you as well! I agree with how you described the flux pattern to operate in this configuration. I mentioned before that I?m new to the bemf idea so I?m not sure how it would effect this configuration if it would have no positive or negative effect? I?m just trying to get an idea of how this would affect the transfer of a DC current through it and if it would transfer it into an AC current and the amount of loss in the process roughly?


@All

Let me ask another question with a slightly different simpler approach. Take Config3.gif. Let?s say I pulse this electromagnet A with a DC current without changing the poles. By simply wrapping coils around the pole could I pull this DC current straight through without great loss [Under 10% given optimal construction]? Or how could this be done? Now let?s say I want to convert this DC current into AC. Could you simply run it into an AC to DC converter? How much loss would you expect to get from a decent AC to DC converter?

Which of the two designs would be ?potentially? more efficient for transferring and converting the DC input into an AC output?

I know it may seems I?m trying to make it more complicated then it needs to be but I?m trying to imagine the behaviors of these ideas for a larger idea. Or maybe I am making it too complicated!

 Thanks,

Tim



Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 03:04:13 PM »
... I?m just trying to get an idea of how this would affect the transfer of a DC current through it... 

Hi Tim,

I think the best answer for your above question is Tesla's patent on Coil for electromagnets,  see this link: http://www.tfcbooks.com/patents/coil.htm  He solved the natural opposition of coils self-inductance (i.e. inductive reactance) to current change by increasing the coils self capacitance with using a second parallel led wire and connect the two coils in series. This way he got a coil setup in which the self inductance is compensated (at a certain frequency called resonant frequency) by the distributed capacitance received between the two coils and there will be no other resistance to the resonant frequency current than the coils combined DC resistance. 
To utilize this for your case: you have to find the resonant frequency of your parallel wire flat or slightly flat coil setup and excite it with the pulsed DC current of the same frequency. Of course other shapes of coils are possible, with cores too, but you have to find its resonant frequency...
Notice: I think the correct term is pulsed DC current in your question instead of DC current because you will probable switch the DC current on and off into your electromagnet with certain periodicity, right? If so, then you excite your EM coil with pulsed DC current, due to the regular and consecutive on and off periods.

@All

Let me ask another question with a slightly different simpler approach. Take Config3.gif. Let?s say I pulse this electromagnet A with a DC current without changing the poles. By simply wrapping coils around the pole could I pull this DC current straight through without great loss [Under 10% given optimal construction]? Or how could this be done? Now let?s say I want to convert this DC current into AC. Could you simply run it into an AC to DC converter? How much loss would you expect to get from a decent AC to DC converter?
Which of the two designs would be ?potentially? more efficient for transferring and converting the DC input into an AC output?
I know it may seems I?m trying to make it more complicated then it needs to be but I?m trying to imagine the behaviors of these ideas for a larger idea. Or maybe I am making it too complicated!

If I compare your Config1 to Config3, the big difference is Config3 has no closed flux path possibility due to lack of core B. This causes a big reducement in induced currents in coils C and D, compared to Config1.

If you introduce a pulsed DC into a coil, (the shape of this current will be more or less a square wave, right?)  the induced voltage in a second coil that has a magnetic coupling to the first coil will be also pulsed voltage (or more or less also a square wave) and once you have a pulsed voltage across the second coil it can already be considered as a kind of AC voltage, right?
(I mention this to clear: no need for introducing a DC-AC converter after the second coil, i.e. after your coils C and D, just because you want to get AC output because you get it anyway.)   

rgds, Gyula

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 03:04:13 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 07:42:10 PM »
@ gyulasun,

Notice: I think the correct term is pulsed DC current in your question instead of DC current because you will probable switch the DC current on and off into your electromagnet with certain periodicity, right? If so, then you excite your EM coil with pulsed DC current, due to the regular and consecutive on and off periods.

I agree.

If you introduce a pulsed DC into a coil, (the shape of this current will be more or less a square wave, right?)  the induced voltage in a second coil that has a magnetic coupling to the first coil will be also pulsed voltage (or more or less also a square wave) and once you have a pulsed voltage across the second coil it can already be considered as a kind of AC voltage, right?
(I mention this to clear: no need for introducing a DC-AC converter after the second coil, i.e. after your coils C and D, just because you want to get AC output because you get it anyway.)

I assume you are referring to the Config1 design? Depending on how you pulse the DC current between the two EMs I would guess you could make it a square wave or a sine wave. Isn?t a normal AC current a sine wave?

@All

I was trying to keep my questions uncomplicated but I think I should post my full idea [next post]. I was just trying to confirm the behaviors of the current through this core design before complicated it. Honk was not too far off when he commented about permanent magnets. They are cool and I like them so I figured I would add them just for fun! [joking] Please read the post below and let me know where I went wrong. As most of my ideas this has probably been tried and I just haven?t ran across it yet.

Thanks

Tim

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 07:55:44 PM »
I have to admit that my knowledge in this area is again very novice. All I know is that I was reading another thread on this forum and in the process saw an experiment that made me questions a few things. The video linked below [11.7Mb] is one of the videos demonstrating the technology. The technology is based off of a lot of peoples work from Flynn to Hilden-Brandt and people before them. It?s a way to collapse and expand a permanent magnets field inside a core and pulse it by using an electromagnet. You have probably read the threads. Nali2001 or ?Steven? has been actively working on Jack Hilden-Brandt?s magnetic valve motor idea. Steven has replicated some of Jacks valves but in a slightly different manner. The video attached is a demonstration of how it works. After talking with Steven I consider him to really know what he is talking about and do not believe he is over looking anything simple in is evaluation of the test in the video.

So this is what I thought from the video. From what I understand an electromagnet using the laminated steel core should be in the ball park of 90%-99% efferent when it comes to power input vs. attraction force potential. So in the video you see that when he put the two cores together with the EM off they don?t attract. Then when he turns on the EM the two cores attract with just enough force that he can wiggle them fairly easily. Then he attached the magnets and cross bar which when combined collapses the permanent magnets? fields inside the core. Again with the EM off and the PM on, the two cores still don?t attract meaning the flux is collapsed. Now when he turns the EM on and connects the two cores the attraction force is much greater then that of just the EM. If the EM by itself is roughly 90%-99% of its potential attraction and it increases by 2 and some say 4 times then you should get over 100% of the potential magnetic attraction. As shown in the video. Is this correct [roughly]?

They are trying to incorporate this idea into an electric motor but my first thought was that if this would at all work in an motor then it should also work in a solid state. I guess its more of what they call a MEG. I probably should have posted this in that topic. It seems to me that if you can increase the magnetic flux by a factor of 2-4 times then you would be creating a magnetic field that is larger then the potential magnetic field of the electromagnet. Thus OU.? From the video it looks like that field is quite stronger. How much I am in the process of replicating and testing.

Now if you look at how the videos configuration fits into my configuration shown above and in config4 below I wonder if it?s a possible deign to pull off the gained magnetic flux [if any]?

The reason I have the air gaps in the design is so that the PM field returns to its respective primary core when the EM fields is turned off.

So I now anticipate your comments on why this wouldn?t work? What are the misconceptions and what might prevent it from working?

Thanks,

Tim

Video: www.abcwag.com/MagnetExtraPower.wmv

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 07:55:44 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 09:49:12 PM »
...
If you introduce a pulsed DC into a coil, (the shape of this current will be more or less a square wave, right?)  the induced voltage in a second coil that has a magnetic coupling to the first coil will be also pulsed voltage (or more or less also a square wave) and once you have a pulsed voltage across the second coil it can already be considered as a kind of AC voltage, right?
(I mention this to clear: no need for introducing a DC-AC converter after the second coil, i.e. after your coils C and D, just because you want to get AC output because you get it anyway.)

I assume you are referring to the Config1 design? Depending on how you pulse the DC current between the two EMs I would guess you could make it a square wave or a sine wave. Isn?t a normal AC current a sine wave?

Hi Tim,

I referred to not only Config1 design what I wrote is true for any two or more coupled coils.  Unless you make deliberately a resonant LC circuit either at the input or the output coil, your pulse input will result in a pulse output, no way to get a sinusoidal shape directly.  Re on normal AC current: what is meant by a normal AC current? I do not know such term in science. We probably get used to sinusoidal waveforms in our enviroment, it comes from the mains or from any harmonic movement etc. It can be a convention to call a "normal" current to be a sinusoidal one. The best is to examine what a circuit is like and whether it is capable for changing the waveshape.  A resonant parallel or series LC circuit always oscillates with sinewaves (unless the iron core of the L gets nonlinear due to saturation etc).

rgds,  Gyula

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 12:10:46 AM »
Thanks gyulasun.

So what is everyone's initial thoughts about this concept?

Tim

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 12:10:46 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 12:18:33 AM »

Well, my opinion is your Config4 has one (big) drawback: when you connect a load across coils C and D the flux created by the load current reflects back totally to coils A and B (normal Lenz law).  Putting it otherwise: if you excite coils C and D with any AC or pulsed DC, you will get output at coils A and B just like in the reverse/intended case.
Otherwise, your setup seems a good idea...

rgds, Gyula

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2008, 12:39:24 AM »
Steven was telling me something about that but I'm still not fully understanding the concepts. Is this what they call BEMF? Is this what is impossible to over come or is there a way to get around it? It seems that if a transformer works then this should work?

Tim

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2008, 01:07:04 AM »
Tim,  with my previous mail I meant the problem is a direct flux connection between input and output coils, just like in case of normal transformers.  And as such, the output power you wish to take out will include a certain part from the input power (say you make the same amount of flux by the EM like your permanent magnets have, then half of the the total induced power at coils C and D will come from your input power you furnished).  You may say who cares if it is still ou? 

But first you have to build this and test whether you can receive ou this way at all because up to now this is a theory from me...

So the reason I mentioned Config4 has that (big) drawback is that personally if I were you, I would not like to include my input power into the output power at all...  How would that be possible?

There is a Meg_builders yahoo group where I came across a link to a so called Bulgarian MEG that claims a measured COP of 2... 

And their solution differs very much at the output coils: they use a closed magnetic square or ring circuit in place of the straight core columns where the Beardan team or Naudin places the output coils. This means that the flux created by the load is able to find a closed magnetic path inside its own square or ring shaped core, separately from the magnetic path of the input coils, the two fluxes cannot "see" each other too much.   
I attached a picture grabbed from their site to see how their core looks like, (I drew green dots on where I mean).  The link with the pictures is here: http://www.inkomp-delta.com/page5.html 

And this is their only English text page with some explanation: http://www.inkomp-delta.com/page6.html

They included a video from their measurements of the COP of 2, about 78MB in size: http://www.inkomp-delta.com/page8.html

Several MEGs have been built in Meg_builders group (censored by moderators) as per Bearden/Naudin but not any one of them achieved higher than COP of  0.85--0.9 during an active 4-5 years periode.  (Then came the link (last year) of the Bulgarian MEG with the claim of COP of 2. There has been silence in that group since then...)
I am 100% sure the failure in the group has had two reasons:
---they did not make the output coils on separated magnetic circuits
---they were not aware of a very important thing, the role of the small air gaps, you wrote after Steven's excellent video:
"The reason I have the air gaps in the design is so that the PM field returns to its respective primary core when the EM fields is turned off."   

Maybe there some more small (or not small) tricks embedded in the Bulgarian MEG to get that COP of 2 I do not know.  Perhaps Steven already knows one or two more I wonder?  Only tests can tell.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline nwman

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Re: Electromagnet power transfer question.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2008, 06:20:02 AM »
gyula,

Thanks for your info.

Tim,  with my previous mail I meant the problem is a direct flux connection between input and output coils, just like in case of normal transformers.  And as such, the output power you wish to take out will include a certain part from the input power (say you make the same amount of flux by the EM like your permanent magnets have, then half of the the total induced power at coils C and D will come from your input power you furnished).  You may say who cares if it is still ou?   

We are on the same page. I totally expected that the input power would travel through the input coil and be collected by the output coils. It should be easy to loop that power [if there is ou] back around and self feed the input coils. Thats a small [ ha ha ] detail which can be dealt with if there is OU. For now I'm trying to justify spending the time and money on R&D. I have spent too much money on "ideas" in the past and I want to make sure I'm not over looking anything obvious and costly?

Is there any other problems you can foresee? Or does it simply come down to testing to see if the PM actually adds to the flux field of the EM?

What percent of increase in flux would be needed to determine a positive gain? 50% stronger, 100% stronger, 200%?
Again, from what I know an electromagnets field should be within 90%+ [given ideal construction] of its potential field so if a gain of 50% is achieved then it should have a 40% gain? Correct?

 So if I do a simple attraction force test with the EM and EM-PM and it shows an increase of over 50%[random #] then it could be wise to conclude that OU is achieved and full scale R&D is required? I know people that can professionally construct and refine this idea but I don't want to make myself look like a fool in front of them.

 
Any other comments or concerns?

Thanks again,

Tim

 

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