Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy
Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: AB Hammer on August 19, 2008, 02:54:26 PM
-
Greetings all
Pros and cons of permanent magnet motors
What uses will the permanent magnet motors have when we finish our discoveries?
What disadvantages would there be in industrial use?
How large can we make them before the magnetic field become more of a danger?
These questions I feel are in good timing to what we are doing. I can see allot of advantages in small application or magnet wheels, even up to car motors. But I see disadvantage to large industrial use. First getting magnets big enough and then the difficulty of using them or even making them ( basically dealing with them ). Imagine 2 strong magnets just 3 foot tall and you are having to place them in some equipment. The magnetic field would be massive and you have to think. What can it do to me, or what happens if they attract and you are in between them?
Just a little food for thought and I think good for discussion.
-
If we can build spaceships, large supertankers and other heavy duty devices, then the safe handling of big
supermagnets is entirely an engineering task. This will not be a limiting factor in design and production.
-
Greetings Honk
The biggest problem with large magnets are, what do we have to do? And what kind of equipment will be able to work with them? It will be interesting on how it may be done.
Lets go hypothetical. A 1ton magnet that has a constant strong draw. What do we know of today that can lift it and move it around without getting stuck on it? Then we have to mount it in something. Are we going to have limits to what may be to hot to handle so to speak? Aluminum seems to be the best idea that I can think of, but just working with small magnets there is a problem keeping them from attracting to each other while working on a wheel. This is where the real problem comes in. IMO
PS I use to be in the Coast Guard and I have been ship yards as well. It is not as massive as one might think moving large tankers. It is the cranes and the moving platforms otherwise it is allot of men and women putting on one part at a time, like a large puzzle.
-
Greetings all
Pros and cons of permanent magnet motors
What uses will the permanent magnet motors have when we finish our discoveries?
What disadvantages would there be in industrial use?
How large can we make them before the magnetic field become more of a danger?
These questions I feel are in good timing to what we are doing. I can see allot of advantages in small application or magnet wheels, even up to car motors. But I see disadvantage to large industrial use. First getting magnets big enough and then the difficulty of using them or even making them ( basically dealing with them ). Imagine 2 strong magnets just 3 foot tall and you are having to place them in some equipment. The magnetic field would be massive and you have to think. What can it do to me, or what happens if they attract and you are in between them?
Just a little food for thought and I think good for discussion.
It seems to me that permanent magnets would only be useful in a few situations. Yes, they can pull things together, but it takes an equal amount of energy to pull those things apart later. Usually, an electromagnet is much more useful, because it can be turned off and on at will.
The problem is that we already have a constant force in place that needs to be overcome all the time. That force is gravity. Do we really need another one like that?
-
The problem is that we already have a constant force in place that needs to be overcome all the time. That force is gravity. Do we really need another one like that?
Gravity is a one way directional force, always pulling downwards on all subjects, no matter what.
You cannot arange the force of gravity into circular gradient force like within a magnetic wankel motor.
This is where magnets excel over gravity.
-
Hi,
one point I would like to bring forward.
Gravity is a minor force easily defeated with a circular balanced rotor.
Take care,
Michel
-
LOL Michelinho
You don't like gravity wheels. Do You? LOL
You will feel funny when a gravity powered device flies over you head. Lets keep an open mind here. This string is for magnet motors. To talk about how far do we think we can take them, and what will it take to work with them? Hypothetical of course at this stage. But please let your imaginations run free, that is what will make or break this string.
-
Well one of the pros I see, are low power magnet motors being used for kinetic sculpture art then becoming perpetual kinetic sculpture art ;D. This is one of my favorites me being a blacksmith. I am already starting to design what I want to do for my art pieces.
-
These questions aren't really relevant because no one has built a fully permanent magnet motor that operates differently from the standard electric motors. Even the wankle motor has an electromagnet in it - which puts it in the same category as a conventional motor.
-
Well one of the pros I see, are low power magnet motors being used for kinetic sculpture art then becoming perpetual kinetic sculpture art ;D. This is one of my favorites me being a blacksmith. I am already starting to design what I want to do for my art pieces.
Except that it is not possible do make perpetual motion from permanent magnets. Magnetism is a force, not an energy being emitted.
-
Hi all,
A magnetic motor would have a chance to make the mainstream if it uses mirror image magnets. Attraction and Repulsion would not impede a free rotation like a regular magnet. According to Howard Johnson work on mapping magnetic vortices on magnets. Take a look. How to make those? Why they don't exist for us? Is it possible to make them? Just a thought. ???
Take care,
Michel
-
Except that it is not possible do make perpetual motion from permanent magnets. Magnetism is a force, not an energy being emitted.
But the real question is what powers the continual magnetic force in a magnet?
-
Lets think Newton.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Magnets are called a force, they attract and repel each other depending on the poles. So lets look on how this works into a possible magnet motor. Your action is an attraction the opposite pole is an equal and opposite reaction then they hold, Now your action is repel, the same pole repels and they keep apart due to it. So you look at each effect and you can have a push pull. One magnet attracts to one and then repels the other. Simple logic says that it is possible to work with but there is allot to understand about the magnet reactions. Back in 1974 I built one that ran for a day and a half, before my cardboard tore out in the middle. It was jerky due to the sticky spots but it tended to push by some how. My father put it down always saying it has already been done. I got an A for science and since I didn't support I took the magnets off and thought nothing more about it back then. So I know a magnet wheels can work. I learned that If my older brother came up with it, my dad would have announced it to the world, but I came from a family where the oldest could do no wrong and the youngest could do no wright. :'(
-
Thats a sad story. Do you remember the configuration of the magnets? Just rebuild it.
-
That was a long time ago but I do remember part and pieces and have been playing it from time to time. I will tell you this that there where 3 pushes to each sticky spot and that is what made the jerking action. The reason I haven't pushed to hard on trying to duplicate it is I have been working on how to nullify the sticky spots to a minimum or all together by field manipulation. And it has been allot of fun. One of my manipulation test made like a pop action and shot the center disk around for a short ways. So I put 3 on the center disk with the one on the side and it shot kind of pop pop pop action but no real sound. but they where still a little to far apart to keep it running. So the next test will be 6 and that should do it. Now you can see I am not saying what configurations I am using, at least not until I have finished.
-
Well one of the pros I see, are low power magnet motors being used for kinetic sculpture art then becoming perpetual kinetic sculpture art ;D. This is one of my favorites me being a blacksmith. I am already starting to design what I want to do for my art pieces.
Are you familiar with Finsrud in Norway?
-
@Xaverius
No I am not related. I am a blacksmith/armourer here is a link to some of my work.
http://www.creationtime.com/hisbsaw.htm
-
But the real question is what powers the continual magnetic force in a magnet?
Similarly, what powers gravity? I think "powers" is not the correct word. There is no power involved. The force simply is.
For example, you have a rubber band wound tight around a pencil, long ways. The rubber band is exerting a force on the pencil, and the pencil exerts a force back. They can do this until the end of time, or until the rubber band snaps or the pencil breaks, and there is nothing powering this process.
-
Similarly, what powers gravity? I think "powers" is not the correct word. There is no power involved. The force simply is.
For example, you have a rubber band wound tight around a pencil, long ways. The rubber band is exerting a force on the pencil, and the pencil exerts a force back. They can do this until the end of time, or until the rubber band snaps or the pencil breaks, and there is nothing powering this process.
nothing powering this process except the energy expended to wind the rubber band around the pencil...
the force simply is... wow, and you accuse others of being gullible. lol, look in the mirror.
-
nothing powering this process except the energy expended to wind the rubber band around the pencil...
the force simply is... wow, and you accuse others of being gullible. lol, look in the mirror.
Go look up some basic physics concepts. Power is the rate at which work is performed. The rubber band causes nothing to move, therefore it is powering nothing.
-
Go look up some basic physics concepts. Power is the rate at which work is performed. The rubber band causes nothing to move, therefore it is powering nothing.
IF the rubber band was NOT wound by some external input of energy, like your hands... then no work would have been done. however the rubber band did NOT magically appear prewound on the pencil did it? if nothing wound the band on the pencil then no force would be being exerted...
your analogy is weak and perverted, perhaps instead of telling me to look up basic physics concepts you should work on your analogy concepts...
obviously no work is performed according to the strict definition. duh...
a magnet holding a 1 kilo weight is performing no "work", while an electromagnet holding the same weight IS performing work?
-
Similarly, what powers gravity?
similarly? not really.
when things, caused by gravity, fall/descend/move, then work is being performed by your definition...
-
Well I went ahead a posted my first magnet wheel since 1974. I call it The Unpredictable Wheel. It is a non runner but it is kind of interesting. It will run one way and the stop and run the other or it just stops. In the video I bumped it when it looked like it was going to run backwards. I built this wheel to get use to magnets again. And now I am getting better test set up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjEsGZfkCRA
-
Hammer,
I was looking at your You Tube Videos.
I saw this one.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpx6ECQhD8E
You call it a NON worker but it looked pretty good in the video?
Rich
-
I'm not sure if this is why but.... If you notice the arm in the upper right hand corner reaching behind and turning the wheel.
Tim
-
IF the rubber band was NOT wound by some external input of energy, like your hands... then no work would have been done. however the rubber band did NOT magically appear prewound on the pencil did it? if nothing wound the band on the pencil then no force would be being exerted...
your analogy is weak and perverted, perhaps instead of telling me to look up basic physics concepts you should work on your analogy concepts...
obviously no work is performed according to the strict definition. duh...
a magnet holding a 1 kilo weight is performing no "work", while an electromagnet holding the same weight IS performing work?
Incorrect on both counts. Your hands performed work stretching the rubber band around the pencil, but as far as the band itself, as soon as the band is around the pencil, it does no work at all after that. The taut rubber band has some potential energy, and if the pencil were to break, then the rubber band would do some work, but otherwise, no, the rubber band does no work.
Similarly, an electromagnet holding up the weight is not doing any work. Just like you or me holding a weight still over our heads may seem like work, but based on the scientific definition of work, it is not work. Just because the human body gets tired doing something, does not mean it is work.
As far as your second post about gravity, I really have no idea what you are talking about. If a weight sits on a table, it is exerting a force down, but it is not doing work. If you are talking about falling objects, yes, they do work by resisting air on their way down. But if you notice, those objects are moving. The rubber band and pencil in my example are not moving.
I am not trying to bash you, but you really sound like you never even took first year physics in high school. This is all out of the first few chapters. Once you get these basic concepts down, we can have an intelligent discussion.
-
utilitarian
You are quite the by the book man. And by the book you are correct, but man wrote the book, so mistakes are always easily possible. So as an inventor I will always look at the mistakes. ;)
-
Hammer,
I was looking at your You Tube Videos.
I saw this one.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpx6ECQhD8E
You call it a NON worker but it looked pretty good in the video?
Rich
It was being turned by hand so that the effects could be seen. A manual turn on a non-worker are good for seeing problems for possible corrections. I also have other wheels that when you see them, they are not being turned by hand but they had a start spin. I don't show those to keep people from getting to excited for they look like runners in the videos even though they are not.
-
utilitarian
You are quite the by the book man. And by the book you are correct, but man wrote the book, so mistakes are always easily possible. So as an inventor I will always look at the mistakes. ;)
my point exactly...
a weight sitting on a table does no work, does the table do "work" by holding up the weight? any person who hasn't been taught to think in such an idiotic manner will say of course.
and utilitarian read my posts a little more careful... maybe when you have some comprehension we can have an intelligent discussion. i said "IF the rubber band was NOT wound by some external input of energy, like your hands... then no work would have been done." like your hands... you said, the band stores potential energy put there by your hands. why are you repeating what i said?
you probably think gravity can't do work too...
-
@WilbyInebriated
What they need to look at when talking about work, is what is working against us. To say the table isn't doing work is not understanding the struggle that the table has with gravity. Sooner or later the table looses to gravity. But they still say it doesn't do work. Anything under a struggle is fighting against something. So it is plain to see something is happening.
-
Hey, if you two geniuses do not like our current laws of physics, feel free to write your own. Then all you have to do is convince objects in the universe to obey, you and you will have your free energy.
-
@utilitarian
Sorry but my IQ is only 139. That makes me a couple of points off of geniuses. LOL
As for changing the world of physics, I don't think it will be necessary. For once something is done, the deed will change the understanding and much more advancements will occur do to it. We might even have it classed as a force converter to energy. This would be fine with me. The worst thing that can happen in life is the same thing that has happened with religions. People get so caught up in what is toughed, they sometimes can no see what is. In religion it has cause much sorrow in the past, but we have gotten better, or have we?
PS I have a graduates degree in theology. and I am talking about most religions. Even science is a religion but they try for much more facts.
-
@utilitarian
Sorry but my IQ is only 139. That makes me a couple of points off of geniuses. LOL
As for changing the world of physics, I don't think it will be necessary. For once something is done, the deed will change the understanding and much more advancements will occur do to it. We might even have it classed as a force converter to energy. This would be fine with me. The worst thing that can happen in life is the same thing that has happened with religions. People get so caught up in what is toughed, they sometimes can no see what is. In religion it has cause much sorrow in the past, but we have gotten better, or have we?
PS I have a graduates degree in theology. and I am talking about most religions. Even science is a religion but they try for much more facts.
Science is not a religion and is nothing like religion. The key ingredient to any religion is faith. Science requires no faith; on the contrary - the entire scientific method violently resists faith as much as possible.
As far as making advancements, well, advancements are good, but you are not going to advance anything by trying to find mistakes in elementary stuff that has been proved millions of times. As an analogy, it is like a beginning mathematician trying to find flaws in 1+1=2, while his peers are working with differential equations. If you want to make advancements, you need to work at the edge, where new theory is being developed. But that takes a lifetime of study, I am afraid.
But back to your original question, you wanted to know the cons and pros of permanent magnet motors. Well, there are no pros of using a permanent magnet in a motor. What would be the point? With an electromagnet, you can use electricity to turn a magnet on and off and create mechanical motion this way. You cannot turn a permanent magnet off, so how is it useful in a motor? Maybe as some sort of braking mechanism that needs to me shifted into place at the right time - I suppose someone can think of a semi-useful purpose - but in a typical motor, really have a hard time imagining why you would need one.
-
Science is not a religion and is nothing like religion. The key ingredient to any religion is faith. Science requires no faith; on the contrary - the entire scientific method violently resists faith as much as possible.
your postion is not like a very strong religion faith ?
-
Science is not a religion and is nothing like religion. The key ingredient to any religion is faith. Science requires no faith; on the contrary - the entire scientific method violently resists faith as much as possible.
LOL, LOL
You don't understand religion. To put it simply it is simply what you believe in. You don't have to worship a god to be a religion. They have their books they thump and science has their books they thump. They both put down, and argue with those that don't believe the way they do. Science has been proven wrong so many time in history it is not even funny. Like man can not fly, ect ect ect. Does it make science wrong all together? Only a fool would say yes for science is a great thing but nay say is a bit over used in science. And when proven wrong it is a uphill battle just like fighting a god based religion . So please don't take this wrong, but it is just human nature.
PS the effects can be turned on and off in a device by mechanical separation in a magnet wheel. Effects in and effects out, ect ect ect.
-
your postion is not like a very strong religion faith ?
No, every element of what I believe can be proven. If new evidence came about contradicting my view, and this evidence was validated, I would change my view immediately.
-
quote author=utilitarian link=topic=5418.msg123428#msg123428 date=1219671267]
No, every element of what I believe can be proven. If new evidence came about contradicting my view, and this evidence was validated, I would change my view immediately.
[/quote]
(every element of what I believe)!!! Thump Thump
But until then you will continue to nay nay nay, until proven wrong. Just like I said, Human nature.
They only problem, and I do mean the only problem is, the nay say is also saying don't even try. That is when I have a problem with those people who don't want me to see it for myself. But what your are saying in (I would change my view immediately) is telling me that your views don't go past your books until a new book or edition is done. I am sure that is not exactly what is, but it is the way you are presenting your argument.
-
Lets go hypothetical. A 1ton magnet that has a constant strong draw. What do we know of today that can lift it and move it around without getting stuck on it?
why you guys are thinking about large magnets in big sizes? in case there will exist an OU-magnertmotor, producing 10kW of electric power, then this unit would not be such a large machine.
for larger energy it's practicable to connect an array of generators together. it's also better if you have to do any repairs on one of those unit's, without affecting the others in the array.
mike
-
I think mike-ao hit the nail on the head. Once we have a magnet motor that is capable of producing a usable amount of electricity, it should be fairly simple to upscale the power without using more powerful magnets.
You could increase the size of the wheel or drum to hold more stators and more arrays. This would increase the power without having to use magnets so powerful they become difficult to work with. Lets say you get a disc going and it produces 10K. To get that disc to produce more power you would need to make the disc larger so it can hold more magnets to the disc and have room to add more stators around it.
Also, if someone gets a permanent magnet motor running, without having to add electricity to an electromagnet, and the powers that be fail to suppress it, I do not believe it will qualify as over unity. Here is why; if we get one going then it will prove magnets can do useful work and hence are a source of power. What should happen is that someone figures out a conversion of magnetism to electrical or mechanical power and applies that conversion to the magnet motor to figure out how much power is being used to power the motor. I believe what we will find is that the output power is not as great as the power coming from the magnets. But this is just my opinion, which counts for exactly nothing on this as I'm not qualified to argue my point. lol.
Now for the big health question. At what point would the magnets in the magnet motor create a magnetic field that is dangerous to humans when in close proximity? If the government claims a magnet motor is a health risk and declares them illegal, will they have a valid point? And, could we shield the whole magnet motor so as to keep the magnetic field from endangering humans and pets? Perhaps by putting it in a metal box that shields the magnetic fields and keeps people and pets safe from the effects of the magnetic field even when standing close to the motor?
And one more point. If we get a magnet motor to work and it doesn't get suppressed and citizens around the world can easily replicate the motor in their garages or mud huts, how long would it take before the demand for magnets outstripped production? And how long until industry could ramp up production to meet demand?
Fun question. Thanks for posting this thread.
-
Uses for a permanent magnet motor?
Powering homes with electricity either by directly feeding the home with a 12 Kilowatt generator or recharging a battery bank with an alternator.
Portable electric generation for camping or in RV's. (Said RV should also be able to travel using the electricity provided by the magnet motor, sans the gasoline or diesel.)
A power source to either recharge batteries in an electric car or perhaps to even directly feed the electric motor.
Hydrogen production at home for the purpose of running current ICE motors in our cars.
HHO production on the fly in a gasoline engine, perhaps enough to power the vehicle sans the gas.
Powering a desalination plant to turn salt water into safe drinking water for populations with scarce sources of drinking water. (Looks like the elites intend to make drinking water the next big ticket item by touting the fact that we're running out of it. Think of the price hikes on gasoline and translate that to drinking water.)
Power source to irrigate crops in countries with scarce food resources. Also a source to power farm equipment for harvesting. Also a source of power to transport those crops from the fields to people who need to eat.
Power source for villages in 3rd world countries that do not have access to power. This would help with drought, starvation, and the standard of living in general. (Water and food can be brought to the villages cheaply. And what the heck, some air conditioning might be nice for the hot climates.)
Quite simply, a working magnet motor that is easily replicated by the average citizen would change everything you know about societies and power sources within 10-15 years. Nothing will look like it does now when someone comes up with a working magnet motor that produces electricity in usable quantities made from off-the-shelf parts that is easily replicated by the average citizen. Power to the people! Literally. ;)
-
No, every element of what I believe can be proven. If new evidence came about contradicting my view, and this evidence was validated, I would change my view immediately.
Ok, let's test this. You probably believe in how physics defines kinetic energy. Everybody knows (believes) that Ekin=1/2mv².
Now here is a guy who proves otherwise: http://nov55.com/ener.html
Momentum (m*v) is all there is to energy. Can you refute the proofs on that website. I'd be interested to see your refutation because I can't and none of my physicist aquintances can either.
-
One might wish to obtain 4 ring magnets of the same material, size, strength and design. Put two in opposition S/S on a pencil, one suspended over the other. Now do the same with the other two N/N on a different pencil. Stick both pencils vertically into a styrofoam or cardboard base sufficiently distant as not to interfere with each other. Notice that both upper magnets hover the same distance over each bottom magnet.
There, one has just shattered the myth of the current magnetic field model as taught in the science halls of 'higher' learning. The current field model is but one of MANY apparently purposeful misdirections long enshrined in order keep tow of a malignant status quo.
(http://physicslearning.colorado.edu/PiraHome/ResourceCD/ResourceImages/PhysicsDrawings/Magnetic_Field_Lines.gif)
If, after conducting this simple experiment, one still needs to ask why, then ask an elementary school science teacher, or better yet, a physics professor to explain why no force assymetry is evident in the contrary arrangement of the above two examples.
Consider following up with this simple experiment:
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/static%20poynting%20gen.htm
There are numerous ways to demonstrate that the simple dipolar arrangement in a permanent magnet is, in effect, a transducer. Yes, those virtual photon strings are in fact, energy. Not simply a 'force'.
But don't take my word for it.
I don't.
TS
-
In response to the magnetic field, some of the largest & fastest rotors and coil combos are in nuclear reactors, using that and smaller examples like backup house generators and alternators for cars, the field remains relative to the source (the magnets) * 3.141% of the total current (Amperage) produced, 100', 100 amps produced = 314' field effect maximum, disruptions of electronics systems would be relative to resonance frequencies, as for biological effects, provided no one has any installed Coclear or heart devices, you should be good with reasonable shielding.
-
The "pros & cons" of a successful magnetically driven overunity device is more complicated than people realize, some pros could be, as the designs of such devices would be so simple usually, creating a patent for them would be difficult, so everybody and his brother would be making off-brand and generic versions cheap, so affordability is a HUGE "pro", many companies will also use the tech to create variations for other purposes, houses, cellphones, cars, ect.....yah, pro, companies will also research to make smaller, more powerful, pro, these can also add some new market jobs, but where there might be a 15% increase in new jobs.....comes the cons
.
with the release of such devices that provide free and/or cheap energy, there will be huge losses in company revenues, power companies, and fossil fuel companies, solar and wind power companies will all go tits up, huge losses of money to investors, huge losses of jobs, not just in the companies themselves, but also all related areas, companies that provide services related to power, including gas stations as well as maintenance and other related, companies that produce parts and equipment, ect., a much bigger loss of jobs than the immediate increase, and the greater loss would happen a lot faster than the much smaller increase, people could be out of work for months and even years, retraining for a new career would also take time and money, LOTS of it, then you get to the political......imagine a country that becomes almost totally self sufficient, wars would break out from those that produce fossil fuels (more so than normal), others thinking/feeling threatened by such superior tech, it would take a long time for lesser developed countries to catch up,
I am more interested in the pros of course, but the cons can't be ignored either, I'm sure I've missed many things, but I was just trying to bring up an expanded view of the "pros & cons"
-
Which is, in part, why the status quo has remained. (Malignant though it's become over time.)
Don't upset 'the' apple cart. keep walking along, keep your head down, nothing to see here.
And never mind the smell. In for a penny, in for a pound, a bunch of rotten apples are what make the cart go round. And btw, the rumors that the whole cart is in jeopardy are greatly unfounded.
Say, kid, grab that wheel over there, help me put it back on....
Gotta keep it movin....
Keep moving forward...
Just keep swimming...
Pay no attention to those satanic pedophiles behind the curtains....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6r8KapWIk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6r8KapWIk)
Up is down, freedom is tyranny, good is bad, and real is fake and fake is real!
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is not to be trusted!
Peace and effervescence
-
some may think my post about an expanded view of the pros and cons seems "glass half empty", but I'm just the opposite, I'm most certainly "glass half full", otherwise I wouldn't be fighting for such devices so hard, but also recognize there is room left and what fills that other half could go either way, ya, looking down while wearing rose colored glasses, makes the half full seem so great, but the world is full of bad things and sticking one's head in the sand won't stop the lion from biting you in the ass, I look forward AND all other directions, I'm not a neigh sayer, just wondering if the tech should be dropped on the world all at once, or gradually