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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Vortex1 on August 12, 2008, 04:29:06 AM

Title: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 12, 2008, 04:29:06 AM
Thus far it seems many of the designs seem to aim at creating an imbalance in the wheel such that one side is heavier than the other.

There is an alternative approach that does not require this imbalance to spin the wheel and relies on angular momentum that can be stored in a gravity attracted weight.

This approach does not use  levers , springs. or the opposition or attraction of magnets

The only moving parts are the weights and the outer wheel.

It may find just enough energy to regate from a variation of the Aspden effect.

I have played with this design on paper since 2006, but have not built it. Been working on too many other ideas.

I hope someone here can simulate it or actually build it.

If this thread gets any interest, I will release a drawing and full explanation in a few days, meantime can anyone take a guess at it from the above description?

I promise it will be interesting.

Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: markh on August 12, 2008, 05:20:49 AM
Please tell.  I'm sure everyone would love to know , and see what you're talking about.  At least I do.


Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 12, 2008, 05:31:57 AM
I'll do my best to finish the sketches and get them up asap.

Thanks for your interest......V

Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 18, 2008, 03:55:41 PM
Before I make a complete fool of myself, is there a "Compendium of Bessler Wheel Classifications" anywhere to be found?

If not, perhaps we should create one.

I would love to post  but don't want to get stacks of "already been tried and won't work". I like to do my research diligently, but don't have the time to read or decipher all of the threads on all of the forums.

I'm not saying this idea will work, however it does present a new approach that possibly could be made to work.

Thanks for your help in advance.
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on August 18, 2008, 05:03:00 PM

 It seem you are a little nevus about posting you idea. If you like you can send your drawing of you design to me and I will give it a full evaluation. Then I will report back to you the whys and why nots about if it has a possibility or not. I do not expose any information out to anybody else. Or you can go ahead and post it, but if you have something great you may want to think about open forum yet. A patent and then expose it will still give all us do it your self people how to do it and you can still get your royalties. If you are looking for builders there are a few competent builders as well Ralph Lortie (my mentor), Sean/CLaNZeR, and myself. I can only fully vouch for Ralph and myself for being quit if you need quit. But I am conversing with Sean more and more, He is a open source individual.

My address is
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 18, 2008, 07:18:35 PM
I wish it to be open source so here goes:

Ever since playing with flywheels, gyros etc as a very young person, I was convinced that there was considerable energy stored in such devices. Of course, this is common knowledge. Eric Laithwaite and others were convinced there was more to this spin than appears in textbooks. DePalma claimed anomolous time and gravitational effects. Aspden made further interesting claims about rotating devices with magnets.

I was once lucky to procure a three phase electrically driven US Navy gyro with a 20 pound tungsten rotor that ran in a vacuum at dangerously high speed. Playing with this monster was scary and awe inspiring.

I began to consider that there may be a factor overlooked in the laws for falling objects, that if the gravitational energy were stored in rotational energy, the aether entrainment might slightly tip the balance in favor of a bit more energy.

Allowing gravity to integrate it's energy over a longer time period than the normal acceleration of 32 feet/sec^2 for falling objects might have a slight gain.

I had been playing with the Bessler wheel for many years, trying to crack it.  After many clever but unsuccessful builds, I was convinced it would require thinking way out of the box. So, rather than trying to shift weights around to provide an out of balance condition, I mused about this idea:

Imagine a set of planks or rails set so that the center area is open. The ramps are fixed at an approximate 45 degree angle. A flywheel is allowed to roll down the rails, it's axle resting on the rails and it's rotating mass occupies the space between the rails.

The large flat circular disc like weights (flywheels or gyros) are allowed to "spin up" due to the force of gravity  as they roll down a the "fixed" inclined plane starting in the fourth quadrant at a tilt angle of 45 degrees.

Note well: The rails do not rotate with the casing wheel !!

The rails can remain fixed at 45 degrees, even though the outer casing wheel spins by bringing the rail supports out through axles concentric with the casing wheel through a hollow axle and on each side. In this manner the inclined angle can be adjusted externally.

The large spin up might be accomplished because the flywheel rolls on its axle by means of  the pair of rails.
Considerable angular momentum is imparted to the flywheel in this manner , as opposed to having the flywheel roll on its outer edge toward center of the casing wheel. In the latter case the flywheel will roll more quickly but not gather much angular momentum.

 In this way, gravity has converted falling energy into rotational energy as the flywheel is making it's way to the center of the wheel. At the center of the casing wheel it is suddenly stopped by a brake or wedge shaped chamber.
At this instant,  it must transfer all of the accumulated angular momentum of the flywheel to the casing wheel. This is a large torque force or "kick".

 After the flywheel has given up it's spin energy to the outer casing wheel,  it is recycled to the starting position by the inertia of the casing wheel.There are many possibilities for this idea since we are storing gravitational energy in spin energy which can be used at any point in the cycle that we desire.

At any point that we decide to stop the flywheel rotation,  and if the "brake" is the outer casing wheel, it's spin momentum will have to be transferred to the outer casing.

 With this technique, we are integrating gravitational force over time.

 I know, the laws of physics state that the accumulated rotational energy will be exactly equal to the objects falling energy, but now we have greater control over the timing and use of the gravitational energy.

 There are many embodiments of this approach that can be fashioned into a Bessler type wheel.

The next version is a variation of this approach.

A variation on the above  idea with more detail:

   Imagine a fixed set of rails or planks set at an approximate 45 degree angle within the casing wheel.  The upper left of the rails is approximately at the 315 degree point (fourth quadrant), the lower right of the rails is at approximately 135 degrees in the second quadrant.

The rails are fixed to this angle and do not rotate with the casing wheel.

This is accomplished by a set of concentric axles that pass through the center of the casing wheel axle, which is hollow, such that the incline angle of the rails can be adjusted on the outside of the casing wheel.

 The rails have a open center area along their length such that the width of the stone flywheel can find clearance while the much smaller axles of the flywheel rest on the rails.

Since the axles of the flywheels are much smaller than the outer diameter, the flywheel will roll on it's axles starting slowly and gathering momentum, storing all of the normal gravitational attraction energy into high speed rotation of the flywheel by the time it exits the rails.

At the start, one of the flywheels roll down this inclined plane on it's axle gaining considerable rotational momentum, spinning clockwise.

 It now drops off the lower edge of the inclined rails and transfers all of it's clockwise gravitational spin momentum to the inner wall of the casing. It will actually try to climb the inner wall of the casing wheel until it transfers all of it's rotational energy to the casing. As it tries to climb the wall, it is in effect pulling the inner wall of the casing wheel down in the second quadrant at approximately 135 degrees causing clockwise rotation of the casing.

Rotational torque energy is multiplied based on the ratio of the flywheel outer diameter versus inner casing wall diameter. When it has given up it's rotational energy, "stops" carefully positioned on the inside wall of the casing rim catch or scoop the stone for recycling to the 315 degree point (fourth quadrant). Now imagine two of these flywheels circulating in this manner with perhaps an extra one rolling down the ramp .

How does the "Aspden Effect" play into this?

 Enough for now, I'll address that next time.
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on August 18, 2008, 08:48:28 PM

 Interesting approach. I do fear that you are going to have to deal with Chaos effect in a falling wheel tracking. This does not mean bad, and no it doesn't mean good either.  But it does mean that some test builds are going to have to be built to study reaction. Now even though you are looking at them going through the center you still have to consider the CF effect, a Gyro spins and is subject to go to the least resistance so starting it my very well go to the center, but in a moving wheel I see it going to outer rim. My personal feelings are as is, is not a runner. But the reactions that you may have will not exclude a future possible designs for a runner.

Thanks for showing, I hope it leads to many good ideas.
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: broli on August 18, 2008, 09:14:21 PM
If what you said is correct you'll need to build it as ideal as possible to keep the loses low. If there's indeed a very small energy gain it might get lost due to frictional loses. I don't know whether simulations would show the same anomaly if it's present. This is a reason why I don't go after these kind of designs. To do so you need money and maybe a lab. I try to focus on simple designs that somehow cause an imbalance in a clever way  ;).
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 18, 2008, 10:16:29 PM
AB Hammer

Now even though you are looking at them going through the center you still have to consider the CF effect, a Gyro spins and is subject to go to the least resistance so starting it my very well go to the center, but in a moving wheel I see it going to outer rim.

Could you clarify, e.g. do you understand that the rails do not rotate with the outer casing, they are fixed to the outside world by concentric axle arrangement.. Yes, CF holds the flywheel against the inner wall until gravity overcomes CF and drops it onto the rails at 315 degrees. Catches are provided in the outer casing to lift the flywheel and provide timing.

The flywheels are operating in their plane of least resistance (plane of rotation) at all times.

Thanks for taking a look at this, not expected to be a runner out of the chute, just proposing what I thought was an alternative approach, as having run many spreadsheets on other devices, I never found a working device that "unbalances" the wheel.

Thanks again.

Broli, thanks for your input, friction is always a problem, however, I'm not worried about it. Bessler didn't have the best bearings in the world, and his device supposedly did real work far in excess of his frictional losses.. Any machine that cannot produce significant OU is marginal and subject to the whims of lubrication, friction etc. I plan a build in the near future. By the way, the small energy gain is not a one time event, but continually integrated in the outer wheel with each cycle over time.

Kind regards for both your inputs.....V

Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on August 18, 2008, 11:41:50 PM

 Drawings are sometime up for interpretation. I didn't recognize it. Now you clarified what your intentions are, on what I missed. The reset looks more of a problem for it has to lift a negative weight up to 10:00 to drop on the ramp/slide.  You can use some ball test that can help figure out the possible problems. I'll look at it close to see if I can make any suggestions.
Title: Re: Novel Approach to Bessler Wheel
Post by: Vortex1 on August 19, 2008, 03:29:49 PM
Here is another partial internal view of the machine. It does not show the outer rim of the casing wheel or the catches that help to recycle the flywheels.

To summarize again,

1.Gravitational energy is stored in angular momentum of the flywheel as it rolls down the incline rails on it's small axle.

2, The rails are fixed to the outside world and do not rotate with the casing wheel. The tilt angle is adjustable.

3. Angular momentum is transferred to the casing wheel when the flywheel exits the ramp.

4. There is a torque "step up" based on "flywheel outer diameter" to "casing wheel inside diameter"

Electrically, the flywheel can be modeled as a capacitor that "charges" as it rolls down the ramps. The flywheels energy (torque) is discharged into a step down transformer ("casing wheel inside diameter" to "flywheel outer diameter"). The casing wheel acts as another capacitor which accepts the charge (torque). This increased torque hopefully can recycle the prior flywheel already on its way to 10;00 in the catches so provided.