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Conventional alternative energy systems => energy and fuel saver => Topic started by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 09:34:18 PM

Title: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 09:34:18 PM
Ok, here's what I did.
My brother and I were looking at ways to increase mileage because of the high cost of fuel.

We ran across a you tube vid of a guy running a generator on fuel vapor, by sucking the inducton air through liquid fuel, then to the carb.
We did the same thing, using an 11HP, briggs & stratton, riding lawnmower.  Here's what we did:

Disconnected the fuel line from the carb, and drained the tank, left line off carb.

Removed fuel drain from carb float bowl, draining the fuel, and left the screw out.

Removed air cleaner assembly from carb.

Connected an air hose from the carb to a coffee container lid.

Connected small hoses from the lid down to the bottom of the coffee container.

Filled the container half way with gas, and put the lid on.

Started the motor, which ran perfect.

The total time invested at this point was 15 minutes.  We ran the motor for 15 minutes with a known quantity of gas, at half throttle, then measured how much it burned, then hooked it up normally and ran it again for 15 minutes.

THE ENGINE BURNED TWICE AS MUCH.

We measured exhaust temps, and it tested normal.
This test engine runs very nice on the vapor, probably better than stock.
Our next test will be on a V8 engine, hopefully this week.
I have pics to post, and will try a vid as well, but I'm at work, and all that stuff is at home.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: helmut on July 21, 2008, 09:52:07 PM
Hi Dirt

Good Job   great idea  and easy to understand.

helmut
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: therealrasta on July 21, 2008, 09:58:29 PM
@ Dirt

Damn.. Nice trick.. Seems like it would work with any ICE with a carb.. You might not have as much pick-up when your 4 barrel carb tries to dump massive amounts of gas into that v8.. Is it a 350 chevy?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 10:32:08 PM
@ Dirt

Damn.. Nice trick.. Seems like it would work with any ICE with a carb.. You might not have as much pick-up when your 4 barrel carb tries to dump massive amounts of gas into that v8.. Is it a 350 chevy?

hey Rasta,

We are working on a solution for the acceleraion of the larger engine,  and with our new ideas, we think we got it covered.
The first engine is a 302 ford, with a 4 barrel edelbrock, the second one is a 350 with throttle body injection.
I think the only difference will be tricking the computer, so the engine light won't turn on.

There are reports of a guy in France that is flying his helicopter with a similar system.

We are really excited about this, cause even our first crude attempt burned half the fuel.
This could be the answer to reducing our dependance on big oil.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: therealrasta on July 21, 2008, 10:35:39 PM
@ Dirt

Thats awesome.. If this works.. We should give every ICE developer a swift kick in the nuts! I mean they got the time and all the engineers.. Hoping this works out for ya.. It has me thinking!

Edit -- if you increase the air flow.. It might take care of that acceleration issue... hmm
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 10:55:00 PM
Hey Rasta,

Yah, this really seems to work, I can't believe how simple it was.  The engine does run a little bit leaner, however not lean enough to cause any damage.

I agree, the key is to vary the air into the tank, this is something the throttle butterfly does anyways, so it takes the throttle just fine.  I was really suprised that the engine accellerates as good as it does. No stumbling at all.

The key is that the fuel vapor is much easier to ignite, so even though the amount of fuel is greatly reduced, it burns so much easier, performance is as good, or better, than before.

If you have an old lawnmower, or snowblower around, try it.
I can't wait to try it on the trucks.  It's gonna be great.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on July 21, 2008, 10:59:29 PM
Howdy Y'all,

This is making me think of the Pogue (sp?) carburetor which vaporized fuel.  It was from back in the 70's.  It utilized a system that heated the gasoline to enhance the vapor production, and only fed the vapors to the engine.  Hot gas is hazardous, so lets try another way.  Ultrasonic transducers placed down in the plenum of the manifold, pointed up towards the carburetor would be effective at vaporizing the fuel in the air mixture as it is exiting the carburetor...

Good luck with your project...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 11:07:09 PM
Hi z monkey,

Actually this is alot older than the '70s.

There is actually a patent from the '30s for a carb that was to give 100MPG
It used what looks like a radiator in the float bowl to bubble air through it to produce the vapor.

This has been kept from us for a long time.

It's time to bring it back.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: therealrasta on July 21, 2008, 11:07:23 PM
Howdy Y'all,

This is making me think of the Pogue (sp?) carburetor which vaporized fuel.  It was from back in the 70's.  It utilized a system that heated the gasoline to enhance the vapor production, and only fed the vapors to the engine.  Hot gas is hazardous, so lets try another way.  Ultrasonic transducers placed down in the plenum of the manifold, pointed up towards the carburetor would be effective at vaporizing the fuel in the air mixture as it is exiting the carburetor...

Good luck with your project...

Blessed Be Brothers...

I believe the concept here is just to burn the emitted gas vapors without inducing liquid gas to vaporize right before combustion.

edit-- I wish I got 100 MPG.. damn.. A oil change once every tank and a half.. :)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 11:12:13 PM
I believe the concept here is just to burn the emitted gas vapors without inducing liquid gas to vaporize right before combustion.

That's it exactly rasta.  Liquid fuel never comes within 2 feet of the carb with our setup.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: eastcoastwilly on July 22, 2008, 12:33:15 AM
Great job Dirt,

Can't wait for the pictures/videos :)

Will
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: poynt99 on July 22, 2008, 02:09:42 AM
Hi z monkey,

Actually this is alot older than the '70s.

There is actually a patent from the '30s for a carb that was to give 100MPG
It used what looks like a radiator in the float bowl to bubble air through it to produce the vapor.

This has been kept from us for a long time.

It's time to bring it back.

ciao,  Dirt

actually, Pogue was from back in the 30's or so. The method and guy you are copying is Tom Ogle. check his patent, he's from the 70's.

He heated his gas tank and ran the engine off the fumes. I duplicated this about 30 years ago as a kid on my dad's lawn mower, and i didn't even heat the gas...strictly cold fumes.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: yoyo on July 22, 2008, 07:13:53 AM
fuel vapors burn more fully and easily this is real but hard cause the man keep changing gas formula
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: felix.lamet on July 22, 2008, 08:59:57 AM
hallo dirt diggler,

I am new in here...

sorry for my bad english, but what do mean with "coffee container" and "coffee container lid" ?
can you please make a picture of the engine?

I have also an old Briggs & Stratton engine and will try that  ;D

greetings
felix
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 02:08:50 PM
Hi everyone.

Here's the pics of what we did.

In the pics you will see that some of the small holes have tubes on them and some don't.  Tis was so that we could tune the mixture by blocking off some of the lines that draw fuel vapor, and allow ones that only draw fresh air in to flow. 
As I said, this is a very simple first attempt, but show increadible promise.

Try this out ;D

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 06:44:52 PM
actually, Pogue was from back in the 30's or so. The method and guy you are copying is Tom Ogle. check his patent, he's from the 70's.

He heated his gas tank and ran the engine off the fumes. I duplicated this about 30 years ago as a kid on my dad's lawn mower, and i didn't even heat the gas...strictly cold fumes.

We are not heating the fuel either, although we are considering it, as there are probably more gains to be had that way as well.

So, you say that you did this 30 years ago, and didn't continue with it?  I don't understand why you wouldn't investigate further on a possible way to half gas consumption.
Give it a try again, maybe this is the future of the ICE.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: therealrasta on July 22, 2008, 06:59:34 PM
Thanks for the pics.. Glad to see your still working on this.. I would try it, but do not have any small engines to mess with really..And I would hate to try this on a fuel injected system the first time around..
Please keep us informed.. And hopefully some other people will play around with this as well.. Would love to just get 30% increase on gas mileage on one of my vehicles.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Mark69 on July 22, 2008, 07:07:30 PM
Hey Dirt, if you run into some trouble with that carb or F/I, find a propane carb setup (like from a forklift).  That will have the necessary plumbing to feed a bigger engine.  You may have to open the jets up some, but it should work.  Also will work when u want to heat the fuel. I think the best is to use ethanol, you would only have to heat it to 173 deg. F and inject the vaporized fuel using the propane style carb.  PLus the ethanol is pure without additives, not to mention might actually be cheaper then gas!  Then crank up the compression ratio!!!!  18 to 1 is best.

Mark
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 07:15:54 PM
Hey Dirt, if you run into some trouble with that carb or F/I, find a propane carb setup (like from a forklift).  That will have the necessary plumbing to feed a bigger engine.  You may have to open the jets up some, but it should work.  Also will work when u want to heat the fuel. I think the best is to use ethanol, you would only have to heat it to 173 deg. F and inject the vaporized fuel using the propane style carb.  PLus the ethanol is pure without additives, not to mention might actually be cheaper then gas!  Then crank up the compression ratio!!!!  18 to 1 is best.

Mark


Hi Mark,

The way this works is that we don't use any jets.  The carb could be completely removed, the only thing required is the butterfly.  In fact that may be exactly what happens on the V8 we are working on.  A simple flaper to retrict air flow is all that is needed.
Because the fuel vapor is already mixed with the air before the carb, none of the fuel metering is needed, only a way to change air flow to the engine.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: allcanadian on July 22, 2008, 07:26:17 PM
@dirt digger
Quote
We ran across a you tube vid of a guy running a generator on fuel vapor, by sucking the inducton air through liquid fuel, then to the carb.
We did the same thing, using an 11HP, briggs & stratton, riding lawnmower.
Was the engine under load at half throttle when you did the test or was it freewheeling?
Good job ;D
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 07:31:17 PM
@dirt diggerWas the engine under load at half throttle when you did the test or was it freewheeling?
Good job ;D

Hi Allcanadian

The first test was done no load, fixed throttle.  The next test, as soon as possible will be to go and actually cut the grass with it to confirm operation.

Will post results as soon as tests are completed.


ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 22, 2008, 07:41:06 PM
DIRT great stuff  GEET Pantone has the heli info {panasea university] Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 07:47:16 PM
Chet,

Thanks, will check that out.  You ever tried this?

By the way, still try'n to get down sailing with ya.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 22, 2008, 08:03:13 PM
Dirt tried it Geet 2 yrs ago on small gas motor [panasea has step by step instructions]want to try on old diesel   a lot in France with this    PESE posted on the geet small engine thread very recently much info   Sailing only once this year big boat is out for a refit let yah know when its back in the water   Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: wile_coyote7 on July 22, 2008, 08:05:43 PM
Looks like heating the fuel is something that's already been tried, and works:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4068638.html
http://www.vfis.us/
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/VapSter/index.html

Just to name a few.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kremlin01 on July 22, 2008, 09:39:26 PM
dirtdggler, this is looking very neat, look forward to seeing development on the v8.
what with Archer's wheel, and your coffee can it could be a busy summer.
many thanks for all the info:

regards, bren.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 22, 2008, 11:22:09 PM
Thanks guys,

This kind of stuff is real fun to try, we are having a good time ;D ;D

Got most of the V8 system figured out, won't be as crude as the coffee can ;)

The full load test on the lawn tractor should with any luck, happen tonight.

Will post results.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: fritz on July 22, 2008, 11:31:16 PM
http://wyominginstruments.com/gas_home.htm

I have some scripts about a guy from the 70ies
with very detailed vaporizer descriptions.
Have to look - cannot find them on the net anymore.
He had a huge disclaimer on what you should do
and - what is almost very dangerous.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: muskokan on July 22, 2008, 11:45:47 PM
Hey Fritz,
I have a feeling that what your talking about being dangerous is the possibility of backfiring.  With the design we have in mind there shouldn't be any problems with the vapour igniting and proceeding back to our fuel supply.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: fritz on July 23, 2008, 12:31:12 AM
Hey Fritz,
I have a feeling that what your talking about being dangerous is the possibility of backfiring.  With the design we have in mind there shouldn't be any problems with the vapour igniting and proceeding back to our fuel supply.

No problem there - more problem with sealing, corrosion and the hazards you can get if some fuel clouds around you ignite.
Be careful.

(Almost killed myself with a screwdriver last weekend - but the scar in my face will remember
me from now on - whenever I look in the mirror;-))))
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kremlin01 on July 23, 2008, 11:52:44 AM
dirtdiggler, wonder do you see any application re: diesel, from this idea ?

bren.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 23, 2008, 02:16:38 PM
dirtdiggler, wonder do you see any application re: diesel, from this idea ?

bren.

Hi Bren,

Yes there is a way to make it work with diesel as well, however as I understand it, the gains will not be as great, because diesel is much harder to draw the vapor out of.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 23, 2008, 05:29:55 PM
Heya Dirt,

Good to see you found this one too (http://www.youtube.com/user/ELManlinos).

Vaporization HAS been around a long time, like water injection. It's just re-engineering engines built within the last 20 years so that they can use it.

The heat vaporization could be had (with no moving parts) by wrapping copper or stainless steel fuel delivery tubes around the exhaust manifold, but would take some R & D to get implemented and safety checked (a hot engine still creating fumes could be a bad thing ;) ).
maybe a 2nd delivery line bubbler NOT heat excited that feeds normal idle but uses the heat excited fumes for acceleration only (many small jets or injectors  to the tubes wrapping the manifold [perhaps being the flashback arrestor that would obviously be necessary] only feeding during throttle demand).

Just some thoughts, you know how I am. ;)

:D

EDIT

The diesel would DEFINITELY need the heat excite, but I wonder how it would effect the compression combustion that diesels use instead of the spark initiated ones for gasoline engines.
My cousin is a trucker/farmer that could use this type of tech right now. I'll pull on his coat tails about it a little bit and see if he's interested.

BTW....if you combine this w/ a little HHO injection, it might increase the combustion even more as others using HHO only do seem to think it helps with more complete combustion.

Just remember to remove it before your next emissions test as they like engines not producing enough emissions as much as they do ones exhausting too much.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 23, 2008, 06:11:33 PM
Hi Ex,

I figured you find your way over here ;)

I just can't believe that nothing(relatively) has been done with this tech for the last 30- 70 years.  With all the other "crack pot" idea's out there, this one seems to be easily adaptable to current engines.

I totally agree about the diesel engine problems, it would be something to look into.

Emmissions are not something we have to deal with much up here, just not enough of us driving around to draw attention ;)

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 24, 2008, 06:18:27 PM
Hello everyone,

Just finished the full load tests, engine runs great.
Running on pure vapor, no liquid at all.

Hope to test the V8 soon.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 25, 2008, 06:58:21 AM
@ all

Been thinking about this a bit lately (and that's never a pretty thing) and here goes.....

@ Dirt

Been wondering how to reuse most of the fueling system with this concept as my engine resources are not that deep.

The filling neck of the fuel tank is just right for either air filtration for bubbler air in OR fume/vapor out to carb, but could you just hook up air filtration to what used to be the fuel feed line and have that be your bubbler inlet?
Think the diameter of the fuel outlet would pass enough air in?

With enough craftiness and some simple machining a small engine could be switched back and forth without too much hassle.

I understand that the bowl screw is left out for extra air needed for combustion, but could it be filtered too with a PCV valve type breather filter?

How are you thinking of addressing it for the car?
Put the carb on a riser....no wait! Just have a tube from fume production entering through the air filter holder top (difficult, but doable) into the throttle body that's got an O.D. (outside diameter) smaller than the I.D. (inside diameter) of the throttle body allowing filtered air to be drawn on demand by engine vacuum.

I was wondering also if there was a way to (mechanically) cause draw on injector holes to be the same vacuum as air induction from the throttle body for an injector based engine.

One thing that I'll ask you (Dirt) to check out soon (well, sooner than I can) is how fumage induction works when it gets cold as gas has a tendency not to play nicely that way when hitting 0 degrees C and below.

I look forward to the V8 results Dirt, and where's them vids?? ;)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 25, 2008, 02:44:16 PM
Hi Ex,

Thanks for the idea's and the questions, you make some good points, the main one being temp related problems with our harsh winters, it is something we had thought of, and as we see it there are 2 simple ways around it. 

1:  heat duct off the exhaust, we use these on aircraft to supply cabin heat, and carburator heat, with a shroud on the gas tank, to slightly raise tank temp,  or

2:  fuel heater from a modern diesel, plumbed to recirculate the fuel out of the tank, through the heater, and back to the tank.

As far as the plumbing issues on the engine, it has yet to be seen exactly what will be needed.
There are other systems out there that just suplement the regular fuel delivery to increase efficency, but we are trying to do it with no outside source of fuel, so as we see it, all the existing fuel system will be removed from the engine.  This means either removing the injectors(on an injected engine), or at least the fuel line to the fuel rail.
Our plan on the V8 is to pump fuel, from the tank, with the stock pump, to our header tank in the engine bay.  This will be recirculated, with a simple line in, with a larger line out, back to the tank.  This will keep a constant supply of fuel in the tank.  The stock air filter will be retained, with the air being drawn into the sealed header tank, then to the top of the carb, or injector throttle body. On ours we plan to custom make a new tank in the engine bay, but,
as you say, there has to be a way to retroit old cars, and our plan there is to drain the tank, drill 10-20 1/2" holes in the bottom of the tank, and install on way check valves into the holes, with air lines running from those, to an air box and filter.  This way the fuel is drawn in at the bottom of the tank as needed, then just a simple adapter from the fuel gauge sender access cap in the top of the tank for the oulet air to the engine.

Hope you can make sense of my ramblings, I haven't got my coffee yet :P

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 25, 2008, 03:00:31 PM
Dirt  have you looked at Geet yet  70 water to 30 fuel same results can be retro    fuel vapor [gas ] can get pretty BUSY  without much help
flight 800 comes to mind [on jet fuel]  Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 25, 2008, 03:36:48 PM
Heya Dirt,

I'm wish sure and strong caffination @ ya brotha! ;D

The "cold" issue was to bring up the question of how do you use choke w/ fumes?

The heater idea gets back into heat excite we touched upon above, but unless it's like the diesel one, it'll still need boatloads of gas to start and run until heat up.

Careful with using the stock fuel pump as it's used to a specific duty and might overflow your fume generation chamber. Might not too, I dunno. ;)

On the injector thing, I meant replacing the injecter with a straight tube in and then trying to redirect the vacuum to pull on the injector port and throttle body equally (or the applicable amount necessary).

Will using the fuel gauge access cap as an outlet mean you lose that functionality? (fuel level)

Good thinkin so far though Mr.

Kudos!

:D

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: starcruiser on July 25, 2008, 05:00:43 PM
A Thought on this car mod,

How about using the secondary tank as Dirt suggests (I was thinking on this as well for a mod on my lawn tractor) and use an electric fuel pump and an injector to spray the fuel into the secondary tank, have the drain line at the bottom of the  secondary send excess fuel back to the primary tank.

The use of the electric injector would allow finer control of the air fuel mixture especially during demand. The injector could be controlled by a simple 555 timer circuit (pulse train/frequency) put a POT on the linkage of the throttle or on a newer vehicle by tapping the throttle position sensor to send control voltage back to the injector circuit.

What do ya think?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 25, 2008, 05:32:16 PM
ALL  backfire BOOM static BOOM friction BOOM  unexpected heat BOOM  need to be addressed in the presence of gas in vapor form   having as little vapor as possible in the circuit before combustion would be a good idea [do it in the carb?]GEET is also a good idea    Chet PS there are fellows here that played big time  with geet some vapor misbehaving[boom] problems and claims of fuel [gasoline]refiners changing formulas to make this harder to do Perhaps those fellows would comment here
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 25, 2008, 05:46:38 PM
Chet,

Thanks for the warning, it is something that we have been trying to get our head around,  could be a really big bang if we have a back fire.  Not sure just yet how to deal with this possibility.  Anyone have an idea?

Ex,

Ahhhhh, sorry misunderstood your coment about cold temps.   The system we have right now on the tractor, already takes this into consideration, if you look at the pics, you will see that not all the holes have lines attached, this allows the mixing of vapor and fresh air.  When we start the motor, we plug the air only ones, for a richer mixture of vapor, then open them to lean as required.   On our new system for the V8, we are using a second butterfly to adjust the mixture by use of a second "choke" cable.
Your idea of mixing through the vacuum line is a very good one, and might help aleviate some of the danger of an explosion.

Sorry no vids yet, we made one, but it was on a cell phone camera, and quality really suffered, will make a new one with a better camera asap.

ciao,  Dirt

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 25, 2008, 06:01:30 PM
Dirt most of the ideas on this apply to HHO check valves bubblers  not sure about cross over to fuel on another note I wonder what a plasma plug would do here as they   JUST THOUGHT OF A CONCERN PHANTOM SPARK IN YOUR MOWER   Chet PS small one cyl recips spark every cycle [360] BAD backfire risk
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: starcruiser on July 25, 2008, 06:07:25 PM
my thought on the tractor is on a 2 cyl unit and using the current intake manifold, just redirecting the fuel to a secondary vaporizing tank as Dirt suggested.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 25, 2008, 06:28:46 PM
ALL  backfire BOOM static BOOM friction BOOM  unexpected heat BOOM  need to be addressed in the presence of gas in vapor form   having as little vapor as possible in the circuit before combustion would be a good idea [do it in the carb?]GEET is also a good idea    Chet PS there are fellows here that played big time  with geet some vapor misbehaving[boom] problems and claims of fuel [gasoline]refiners changing formulas to make this harder to do Perhaps those fellows would comment here


Chet

You raise VERY good points.
This could potentially be very dangerous.   
I will look into the geet, don't know anything about it.
Something interesting is that we have been doing all these tests with avgas, 100 octane low lead.
As you know, this is highly refined, with none of the aditives of car gas.  this could be why we are having such good luck with the operation of our engine.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 25, 2008, 06:32:27 PM
Dirt most of the ideas on this apply to HHO check valves bubblers  not sure about cross over to fuel on another note I wonder what a plasma plug would do here as they   JUST THOUGHT OF A CONCERN PHANTOM SPARK IN YOUR MOWER   Chet PS small one cyl recips spark every cycle [360] BAD backfire risk

Starcruiser:

Thanks for the input!!  You have some great ideas, we will look into possibly using some of them.   ;D ;D

Chet,

Phantom spark

Good thinking Chet, I had NOT considered this.  Clearly we need to think about safety more.

ciao,   Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: starcruiser on July 25, 2008, 06:55:04 PM
Glad I could be of some assistance
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on July 25, 2008, 07:42:08 PM
DIRT   Panacea university    MIT copies geet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3kueRyzvlY Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: argona369 on July 25, 2008, 10:40:50 PM
Does this hot air/fuel vapor test car help at all?


http://www.race-cardrivers.com/Shell%20Opel.htm

http://www.opel-p1.nl/custom/testcar/Shell%20Opel.htm

Btw,

The air intake to the carb appears to air draw from the crankcase.
Ie the crankcase could also be under vacuum under light loads.
not sure though, but that?s what it looks like to me.
At least it IS drawing air through/from the crankcase.

The crank case must have special seals I would imagine. (if vacuum/ restricted intake to crankcase)
I don?t know what vacuum in the crankcase would do to a normal motor.
it might wreck it?

might just be drawing through, hard to say.

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: allcanadian on July 25, 2008, 11:03:39 PM
@Dirt
Backflashes are a no-brainer, you put a check valve or flapper valve on the outlet of your coffee can carburator.Ahead of this you put a loose wad of stainless steel wool(dish scrubber pads) which will cool the backflash enough to stop it.The flapper valve is extra insurance to ensure the backflash never reaches you coffee can.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: starcruiser on July 25, 2008, 11:07:59 PM
the vacuum from the crank is normally drawn thru a PVC valve. This is normal in most engines, they use to valve to stop oil from being sucked into the vacuum system. Please note that this is not the only air source on engines, just one of many. This source is used to suck the fumes from the crank case and mix them with the incoming fuel, part of the recycling of vapors.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: argona369 on July 25, 2008, 11:13:06 PM
the vacuum from the crank is normally drawn thru a PVC valve. This is normal in most engines, they use to valve to stop oil from being sucked into the vacuum system. Please note that this is not the only air source on engines, just one of many. This source is used to suck the fumes from the crank case and mix them with the incoming fuel, part of the recycling of vapors.

Yes but the PCV valve has a minuscule draw from the crankcase.
The opel has the carb (throttle valve) directly into it.

Ps,

It looks like the air ?intake? to the crankcase is on the passenger side/rear of car of the motor,
Routed into the back or engine bay side of the radiator?
Looks like maybe its not a vacuum crankcase, just very hot air draw?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 26, 2008, 12:06:42 AM
Say, there's an idea!

Heat the air and let that warm the fuel or be responsible for the fumage. then you don't have to worry about preheated gas generating a lot of vapor when the engine is not on.

Good call argona. ;)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: argona369 on July 26, 2008, 03:10:57 AM
Say, there's an idea!

Heat the air and let that warm the fuel or be responsible for the fumage. then you don't have to worry about preheated gas generating a lot of vapor when the engine is not on.

Good call argona. ;)

Thanks ExxComm,

There?s something strange in that engine, (apart from the obvious lol).
Where?s the fuel vapor inlet?
Hot air is going through the crankcase but,,
That would have to mix with Another fuel vapor hose.

I have this feeling that that brownish red hose (fuel line type hose?)
Is the fuel vapor hose.
Although it does not go to the cylinder head I bet that the cylinder head
has it?s water passages to the block (head gasket passages) welded shut and the fuel is fed
into the cylinder head water passage space for vaporization.

Or something like that ie. Fuel is vaporized somewhere in the block. (or maybe the exhaust?)
Somethings hidden in plain sight in those photo?s

The Opel Shell 376 mpg engine is a very interesting engine to say the least.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Rocr on July 26, 2008, 03:46:00 AM
Howdy Y'all,

This is making me think of the Pogue (sp?) carburetor which vaporized fuel.  It was from back in the 70's.  It utilized a system that heated the gasoline to enhance the vapor production, and only fed the vapors to the engine.  Hot gas is hazardous, so lets try another way.  Ultrasonic transducers placed down in the plenum of the manifold, pointed up towards the carburetor would be effective at vaporizing the fuel in the air mixture as it is exiting the carburetor...

Good luck with your project...

Blessed Be Brothers...


Mabe a cheap way to play with this concept would be to take apart one or two of these ultrasonic water foggers ... ?

http://crafters2000.stores.yahoo.net/ulfog.html


good luck

.

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 26, 2008, 03:48:40 AM
Holy crap, I have never heard of this!

It looks to me like that redish hose is coming from the water pump, perhaps heating the air/fuel mixture?
It seems that is alot of research that has been done, and hidden over the last 60 years.


@ Allcanadian

Thanks for the info, we were thinking about a check valve/flapper, but never considered the steel wool, great idea ;D

This is all good stuff people, keep the ideas coming!  It truely blows my mind that this has been available to us, and hasen't been developed.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: argona369 on July 26, 2008, 04:06:39 AM
Holy crap, I have never heard of this!

It looks to me like that redish hose is coming from the water pump, perhaps heating the air/fuel mixture?
It seems that is alot of research that has been done, and hidden over the last 60 years.


@ Allcanadian

Thanks for the info, we were thinking about a check valve/flapper, but never considered the steel wool, great idea ;D

This is all good stuff people, keep the ideas coming!  It truely blows my mind that this has been available to us, and hasen't been developed.

ciao,  Dirt


Ya, it looks like the water pump (heater hose connection), but that would mean the ?coolant? is gasoline.
But, that doesn?t work either as where it?s located that would be liquid fuel.
If it?s fuel vapor I still bet it?s the water passages in the cylinder head (isolated somehow) and that?s a ?lower point? of the head coolant system (maybe).

Cliff,
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 26, 2008, 04:35:51 AM

Ya, it looks like the water pump (heater hose connection), but that would mean the ?coolant? is gasoline.
But, that doesn?t work either as where it?s located that would be liquid fuel.
If it?s fuel vapor I still bet it?s the water passages in the cylinder head (isolated somehow) and that?s a ?lower point? of the head coolant system (maybe).

Cliff,


Hi Cliff,

Hmmmmmmm, I'm not sure they would use gas for coolant, however, i have heard that there is increadible mileage with burning coolant, perhaps it is just drawing a small amount of coolant into the air box, kinda siphoning it into the intake?

very interesting, I'm gonna study the pics for a bit, to try and figure it out.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: buzneg on July 26, 2008, 04:41:46 AM
I suggest running a full can of fuel. Gas consists of many different molecules, that's how it's refinned the lighter mols rise to the top and the heavyer ones sink. In this case the lighter mols would evapourate first, and they would induce a faster flame speed in the chamber which works like HHO injection. If you heat it up it will work great probably. Otherwise the reason would be more complexe, getting into the physic's of evaporation. (which I suspect takes momentum from atomic vibrations, what cools the earth, or cool you when you swet?)..
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: argona369 on July 26, 2008, 04:47:44 AM
Hi Cliff,

Hmmmmmmm, I'm not sure they would use gas for coolant, however, i have heard that there is increadible mileage with burning coolant, perhaps it is just drawing a small amount of coolant into the air box, kinda siphoning it into the intake?

very interesting, I'm gonna study the pics for a bit, to try and figure it out.

ciao,  Dirt

Well, guessing here,
I think the block itself has water coolant that runs through the radiator.
(to keep hot spots even?)
Radiator heats air that?s drawn into the crankcase to the throttle body (vacuum?) ,choke mixture lever shows up in the photo, (probably used as a air-fuel vapor mixture control). (throttle itself not seen)
Fuel vaporized in the head or,, visa versa, water in head, fuel vaporized in water passages in block.
looks trick,

Cliff,


Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: poynt99 on July 26, 2008, 06:58:55 AM
We are not heating the fuel either, although we are considering it, as there are probably more gains to be had that way as well.

So, you say that you did this 30 years ago, and didn't continue with it?  I don't understand why you wouldn't investigate further on a possible way to half gas consumption.
Give it a try again, maybe this is the future of the ICE.

ciao,   Dirt

hey i was only about 12 years old at the time.  ;)

all i did was remove the fuel tube that dips into the fuel tank as i recall. i did have a rubber hose running from the carb to somewhere else too at one point, but i can't remember the details at the moment.

the 5hp Briggs and Straton ran for about 20 minutes on about 1/8 inch of gas before it quit. the tank got cold so i assume it sucked all the fumes it could out of the tank then became starved for fuel. this is simple stuff. the key is to perfect it so the throttle still works properly, and you don't get the fuel starvation problem, but that's where the pre-heating comes in.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: maxc on July 29, 2008, 09:05:07 PM
Check valve. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR%2D97800&N=700+400105+4294821958+115&autoview=sku  Nice size too. I don't know how explosion prof they are?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on July 29, 2008, 10:48:49 PM
Howdy Y'all,

I uploaded a copy of the original Pogue Carburetor Patent to OverUnity.Com.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item103

I hope this helps solve some problems...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 30, 2008, 06:39:41 PM
Just back spouting ideas off the top of my head (since it's the only area flat enough to hold them, and not many!).........

These are again HHO/fume centric.

What if you had a fuel evaporation tank producing (bubbling) into a HHO vessel with it's bubbling action helping agitate the HHO generation vessel and helping keep HHO gas from staying in suspension in the water?

This might allow more complete mixture of fume/HHO for a greater combustion potential and less fuel. I wouldn't think you'd have to worry about petroleum vapor being held in suspension in water.

It also creates another flashback suppressor before the fume chamber (which it seems might benefit from being attached to the exhaust somewhere along its length and a fuel injector spraying the side of the now higher temp fume chamber for generation).

The more thorough mixture might make for the HHO vessel output holding less evaporated water (a separate radiator for HHO water might be necessary now that it has the added heat transferral from fume bubblage as well as heat created by electrolysis).

So the petroleum is heated by generation chamber/exhaust.........wait, that doesn't make sense since it's a heat/cool/combust cycle.

But..............

If the HHO generation vessel in under vacuum, could fresh air be introduced into it and the petroleum gets injected into it (since petroleum and water don't mix that well) to use the heat there for fumage generation and THEN goes to exhaust for further heat excitation before intake induction?

Kinda the exact opposite of what an intercooler does for turbo induction since that's cooling air to cram more into the combustion chamber with more fuel.

:D

Just some thoughts kids.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on July 30, 2008, 08:30:20 PM
I found this: take a look at the red quote

Quote
Gasoline is a complex blend of carbon and hydrogen compounds. Additives are then added to improve performance. All gasoline is basically the same, but no two blends are identical. The two most important features of gasoline are volatility and resistance to knock (octane). Volatility is a measurement of how easily the fuel vaporizes. If the gasoline does not vaporize completely, it will not burn properly (liquid fuel will not burn).

If the gasoline vaporizes too easily the mixture will be too lean to burn properly. Since high temperatures increase volatility, it is desirable to have a low volatility fuel for warm temperatures and a high volatility fuel for cold weather. The blends will be different for summer and winter fuels. Vapor lock which was a persistent problem years ago, exists very rarely today. In today's cars the fuel is constantly circulating from the tank, through the system and back to the tank. The fuel does not stay still long enough to get so hot that it begins to vaporize. Resistance to knock or octane is simply the temperature the gas will burn at. Higher octane fuel requires a higher temperature to burn. As compression ratio or pressure increases so does the need for higher octane fuel. Most engines today are low compression engines therefore requiring a lower octane fuel (87). Any higher octane than required is just wasting money. Other factors that affect the octane requirements of the engine are: air/fuel ratio, ignition timing, engine temperature, and carbon build up in the cylinder. Many automobile manufacturers have installed exhaust gas recirculation systems to reduce cylinder chamber temperature. If these systems are not working properly, the car will have a tendency to knock. Before switching to a higher octane fuel to reduce knock, make sure to have these other causes checked.

Now my question is, if we block the fuel to return back in the tank, we can have our gas expand and turn it into vapor without to much modification and increase mileage?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 30, 2008, 10:58:23 PM
Thanks for all the input guys, keep it coming ;D

I've been staying at the cottage for the last 2 weeks, so no internet at night, and no access to the truck to continue the conversion,  but, lots of warm water, cold beer, and sunshine, so I guess the V8 can wait ::)

Anyway, we will be continuing after this weekend, and hope to have some definitive answers shortly after.

We all need some time off right ;)

ciao,    Dirt
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: pese on July 31, 2008, 04:28:57 AM
@ramset.
for the french links...  (
i have mor information for you , i  found some picts from the carburatoir and exaust heater


give attention   ( I remeber following)::
that the iron in the exaust heater must be "burn in" for the first 15 minutes (of first running the system)
polarised to the N-S earth magnet field (so he take the magnet fields in the iron-middle-axis.(tiege reacteur)
(so the french text in $03xx.jpg !)

It sound a little "misteriose" but THE MOST of UNKNOWS , shown  misteriosly 

zhe shownd different Pantone-GEET carburators that are working in france and egypt  (big electricity generators).
i seen dozend pics of them and hundreds threds and lectures  in 2005/2006 in french language
Pes?

http://www.stormloader.com/users/pesetrier/geet/


 
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on July 31, 2008, 04:37:31 AM
I believe the concept here is just to burn the emitted gas vapors without inducing liquid gas to vaporize right before combustion.

edit-- I wish I got 100 MPG.. damn.. A oil change once every tank and a half.. :)

Sir? Was that Fill the gas and check the oil or was that check the gas and fill the oil? ;D
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on July 31, 2008, 04:41:55 AM
I found this: take a look at the red quote

Now my question is, if we block the fuel to return back in the tank, we can have our gas expand and turn it into vapor without to much modification and increase mileage?

If you block the fuel line return, you risk damaging the fuel pump. Fuel pumps aren't designed to be "dead-headed", hence the fuel pressure regulator.

Fuel pressure regulator dumps excess fuel that is not injected back to the fuel tank.
You COULD build up enough fuel pressure to force an injector to open at the wrong time.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on July 31, 2008, 06:27:35 AM
If you block the fuel line return, you risk damaging the fuel pump. Fuel pumps aren't designed to be "dead-headed", hence the fuel pressure regulator.

Fuel pressure regulator dumps excess fuel that is not injected back to the fuel tank.
You COULD build up enough fuel pressure to force an injector to open at the wrong time.

Do the fuel that return back in the tank use the main fuel pump?

Is the fuel pump always running or just run when its needed?

I will need to learn more about fuel system because before I do something on my car I need to know what I am doing :)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 31, 2008, 07:06:00 AM
More burbles forth.......

Let's say you take a pipe the size of the air induction and wrap it one complete turn around the exhaust manifold so that each end is pointing a different direction, and have the air be pulled from the air filter/HHO injection area ( I just like it's complete combustion/clean emission aspect a lot) through the top of the pipe wrap where fuel injectors are arrayed throughout the length so that each injector is facing a smooth area of the exhaust heated pipe to create fumage in response to acceleration demands.

Maybe mount squirter tubes connected to injectors a little farther than right next to the manifold and in the bottom area where the tube is sandwiched by the engine block, manifold, and down pipe.

Since running on fumes could be seen as running "ultra-lean" and creating more engine heat (although some say that has not been an issue yet), wouldn't a passive heat exchange be beneficial?

Oops! Just thought about the air induction cooling too.
Hmmmmmmmm........

Maybe just make the fumage chamber in that sandwich area (piping the HHO output to there) and have individual pipes (ending in a one way valve that can withstand combustion) running to the old injector locations and let piston vacuum draw in the fumes necessary for throttle demand.

Are there propane injectors as well as carbs?

Doesn't the air quantity needed decrease a bit?

Just some thoughts.....trying to see the least invasive modification with the best return.

:D

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on July 31, 2008, 07:22:04 AM
You can also use the PCV valve for HHO/gas vapor instead of the air filter. The good thing about the PCV valve is its run under vacuum.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on July 31, 2008, 12:14:43 PM
Howdy TheOne,

In a fuel injected system the unused gas returns to the tank, where it will cool off.  There is considerable pressure on that line, like 50 PSI.  But there are stubs that come off that line which supply the fuel injectors.  If you were to heat the injector stubs with small electric heaters designed to be applied to tubes you could get some benefit.  In modern vehicles the gas is injected very close to the cylinder head so there is less space to modify the fuel spray. 

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on July 31, 2008, 05:47:48 PM
You can preheat the incoming air by 'tee' ing off of your heater hoses and running lines to a piece of 1/3" coiled copper tubing inside the fresh air duct.

As the vehicle warms, the air warms too. Less dense air = better MPG. More dense air = more power.

And while you're at it, relocate your IAT sensor so that the radiator fan blows on it. That too will help by retarding the timing (slightly).
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: starcruiser on July 31, 2008, 06:02:16 PM
I would think a modification could be made to the fuel return scheme, use a pressure relief valve close to the fuel pump that bypasses the feed line back to the tank while maintaining the pressure in the safe zone for the injectors thus allowing you to preheat the fuel on the way to the injectors. I would think this would allow the fuel to maintain a warmer temp without recycling the pre-heated fuel back to the main tank.

As far as preheated air goes, earlier model cars have a air tube that pulls some heated air from around the exhaust manifold and sends it to the air breather (conventional carbs and throttle body types), some of these setups use a butterfly valve that is temp controlled as well. I am not sure of the newer models though.

My 1995 Chevy Van has this feature, it uses a flexible aluminum tube to feed the air breather neck from the exhaust manifold shroud.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on July 31, 2008, 06:31:17 PM
The WAI (warm air intake) is a good mod, I completely forget about it, I will try it, I just need to find a flexible tube that sucks the air from the top of the motor where the normal air does not flow like near to the sparkplug, The copper idea is good but you can get more hot air by getting the air directly from the engine bay.

Hopefully that will help a little bit
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on July 31, 2008, 08:37:51 PM
You could always try drilling a lot of 1.75 inch holes in your air box before the air filter.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on July 31, 2008, 08:58:05 PM
Howdy Y'all,

Back in the 80's we would turn the lid of the air filter housing upside down.  Then it was to increase the flow of air into the air filter housing.  But it could be used to draw in warm air from around the engine.  But I thought the point here was to get better mileage with the same amount of power.  You want to cold, dense outside air to get more oxygen into the combustion chamber.  By heating and vaporizing the fuel then mixing it with the cold, dense outside air you get better power and better mileage.

Swirling the air makes the gasoline move a lot more, further molecularizing (breaking down into individual molecules) the gasoline.  One way to do this is a Cyclone to make the air spin in the intake manifold.  This is something that racers do to gain a little power.  Then the ultimate is a Turbo.  Turbos spin the air really fast.  Turbocharged engines are far more efficient than normally aspirated engines.  You can tell this by the amount of power they make, and by the almost non-existent emissions.  Also the turbo generates high frequency oscillations in the intake manifolds.  You can hear the turbo whine, well this is translated directly into the intake manifold.  This whine goes far above human hearing maybe as high as 50 KHz.  This acts like an ultrasonic transducer shaking the gasoline molecules apart, creating a cleaner burn, and fewer emissions.

Why not take all of the concepts and put them together.  Warm the fuel, use a Cyclone, put a turbo on it, and use ultrasonic transducers.  Make the system so efficient that there is not one molecule of gasoline that can escape.  You can test the efficiency of the system by hooking the tailpipe up to an emissions tester at the local state inspection facility.  They can tell you if you have unburned hydrocarbons coming out of your tailpipe.  Back when I had a Turbo Sunbird I never had a problem with the emissions test.  The turbo made it burn really clean, and my foot made sure the engine was hot.

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 31, 2008, 09:48:33 PM
@ zmonkey

I have a '95 2G Eagle TSi that I've done a 1G swap into and am presently bogged down at the point so near the end it's not funny (vacuum tubes). I drive a '99 2G Mitsubishi Spyder GST that is bone stock as well as a '91 Toyota Camry that gets the most use these days due to gas prices.

EDIT

(Uh...the TSi and GST are both turbos, plus a Plymouth laser RSi.)

Let's just say I have too many cars, cause that's not all of them.

But I think you're missing a major point of turbo induction mechanics.

It serves the purpose of ramming air into the combustions chamber SO MORE gas can be added to it as well making for a marked power increase and cleaner emmisions

This is not a gas saving but a performance increasing enhancement (and used to greatly reduce emissions from diesel engines).

I'm not saying that a turbo wouldn't be a good addition to the mix for this experiment, in fact I think it's a great addition, but the intercooler (a radiator to loose the heat energy in induction air from turbo compression) could cool the mixture down far enough that the gas would re-condense into liquid petroleum and defeat the effect.

I think that the intercooler should be used BEFORE turbo compression (between air filter and turbo), instead of after as is normally done, which would help get more air to the turbo passively so it could heat the air by compressing it (as well as its proximity to the exhaust areas) to create the fumes that are the central focus of the thread.

The whole reason I think this approach makes the most sense and could effect the most change soon is that it's not asking people to switch their fuel, only use it more efficiently.

The object lesson that a container that has barely any liquid gas, but lots of contained fumes is more explosive than a full one should help introduce others to the idea as quite a few have heard that one. ;)

We can't have more fumes with cold dense air, but we can with larger volumes of "fumed" air whose movement and heat create the fumes with a non-inter-cooled turbo.

Kosher dude?

Blessed Be Brother....
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on July 31, 2008, 10:03:15 PM
Howdy exxcomm0n,

OK, so use the Cyclone to create a vortex in the intake manifold, and use the ultrasonic transducers to molecularize the gasoline.  Draw the air in across the outside of the exhaust manifold so its nice and toasty and keeps the gasoline vaporized on its way into the combustion chamber.  Hey, were just exchanging theoreticals here, no need to get puffy about it...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on August 01, 2008, 01:43:31 AM
Howdy z.monkey

I'm not puffy about it. ;)

I had thought about the use of turbo but hadn't looked into its aspects enough until you brought it up, and for that I thank you.

As for tossing out theoretics, I'm pretty good at that, and pretty sloppy about the manner in which I do it but I thought that I should point out that trying to make more fumes with colder air is a concept I bumped heads with just a few posts back in a much different way (and not very flattering) and so thought it might behoove readers of the thread to take that aspect into consideration.

If'n you could please bring a bit more about the ultrasonics angle to the table, I'll be appreciative as it's a weak point in my knowledge.

Please do not let me, or any other, keep you from posting your thoughts! ;D

Blessed Be Brother.....
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: tishatang on August 01, 2008, 10:55:00 AM
Hi All

My take on the Opel modified high mpg engine:

There is no water pump.  There is no fan.  A large truck radiator holds enough water for the short run anticipated.  The water circulates by what is called a thermo siphon principal.  When you have large hoses and the radiator sits a little higher than the top of the engine, the hot water flows out of the engine into the top of the radiator and the cooler water enters the engine from below.  Some early old time tractors used this principal.  No water pump needed.  I think there is a duct fan to force the hot air from the radiator through the crankcase and into the inlet of the carb.  The choke lever shown is to adjust  the quantity of air,  The reddish hose is the fuel vapor hose connected into the intake manifold below the carb.  The other end of the reddish hose looks like it is connected to a large tube-like chamber to collect the vapors.  You can kind of see a hose clamp there.  This engine will be tuned to run at only one optimum speed for economy.  There is no throttle.  They built in an optional gear to try to maximize milage.  No doubt the engine would be brought up to working temperature, and then an easy way to put in a measured amount of fuel for the run had to be implemented.

Unknown where the air inlet into the radiator is?  Maybe it is just collected from inside the engine compartment?  And, of course the design of the fuel vapor chamber?.  The exhaust heat was probably used to help vaporize the fuel.  Great pains were taken to prevent engine heat loss to the outside.  No outside air to cool the radiator.  Yet, the engine has insulation on the top and side covers and around the carb.  Like they didn't want those parts to be the same temperature of the engine compartment.  Maybe this was to fine tune the balance of the hot air and hot vapors a little independent of everything else as the engine compartment temperature rose?

Everything else was to eliminate drive train losses and weight.

Our problem is we have to have a variable speed engine and not overheat if we want to use our AC. 

Maybe the guys that have the car now can take some photos of the other end of the reddish hose and the treatment of the exhaust manifolds?  Therein lies the secret.

tishatang
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: allcanadian on August 01, 2008, 04:15:26 PM
When I think of the most efficient ICE, I think of Carnots perfect engine cycle. Carnot stated----
1)Air and fuel are taken in at atmsopheric conditions
2)Perfect Combustion takes place at maximum pressure and temperature
3)Exhaust gasses are released at as near to the initial conditions of (1) as possible--- ie atmospheric conditions.

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 01, 2008, 05:26:34 PM
Howdy Y'all,

Are you all familiar with the ultrasonic fountain?  I see them a lot in Asian stores, they are popular around Christmas time.  They are a decorative humidifier which use an ultrasonic element to vaporize water which forms a mist in the fountain.  The basic principle being  the water is exposed to ultrasonic sound which gives it enough energy to separate the water molecules and form a vapor.  In the fountain there is a self contained driver, some LEDs and ultrasonic transducer which a potted into a small stainless steel cylinder.  You just apply direct current to the device and it makes a light show and the water vapor mist.

Now lets switch gears so to speak and look at this in light of the topic of this thread.  Suppose we use these ultrasonic sound waves to add energy to the gasoline molecules causing them to separate?  When the molecules are separated, and you have a finer mix of gasoline and air you get a better, more efficient burn.  The gasoline will burn more completely, and there will be less hydrocarbons left in the exhaust flow.  This produces more power with less gasoline, or any fuel for that matter.

Now how could we apply the ultrasonic sound waves to the gasoline and air mixture?  For a carbureted engine you could place the ultrasonic transducers in the plenum of the intake manifold pointed up at the base of the carburetor.  As the fuel air mixture flows down through the plenum in the intake manifold we excite the mixture with the ultrasonic sound waves which separates the gasoline molecules.  For a fuel injected engine this is more difficult.  Most modern fuel injection systems are called direct injection.  The fuel is sprayed into the airstream right at the face of the cylinder head where the intake airstream is flowing into the cylinder head.  This doesn't leave much space to manipulate the fuel air mixture.  And here don't be fooled by a fancy injector system, they are just as inefficient as carburetors, but they are more reliable because they are controlled by a computer.  We have a couple of options here.  First we could add a tube which is inserted into the intake manifold runner just after the injector.  The tube has the ultrasonic transducer in it, and it is modulating the mixture where it is sprayed into the intake manifold runner at the face of the cylinder head.  This, I think, would not be as effective as having the ultrasonic transducers in the plenum of the intake manifold under the carburetor.  The second fuel injection scenario is to mechanically modulate the tip of the fuel injector at ultrasonic frequencies, which are around 40 Kilohertz.  Any of these scenarios would require extensive development.  I think it would be worth it if we can make a significant difference in the amount of gasoline we are using.  Plus there is a potential market here.  If we could design a retrofit kits to add these improvements to any vehicle then there is a business to be started.  You could be helping to reduce pollution, increase fuel efficiency and make money at the same time.

Oil is a limited natural resource.  It will not last forever.  We need to optimize its usage.  Doing what we can to improve efficiency and reduce pollution is the ecologically responsible thing to do.  By doing this now we are helping to take the burden off future generations.  I shudder at the thought of my descendants having to clean up the mess that I made.  I want to make the world a better place for them.

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Libra8 on August 01, 2008, 08:08:29 PM
Excellent work gentlemen. I drove a 1982 Datsun/Nissan 310 back in the day and it got 35/36mpg on the highway. It's hard to believe that in 25+ years cars aren't getting better mileage. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: pese on August 02, 2008, 02:23:38 AM
Howdy Y'all,

Are you all familiar with the ultrasonic fountain?  I see them a lot in Asian stores, they are popular around Christmas time.  They are a decorative humidifier which use an ultrasonic element to vaporize water which forms a mist in the fountain.  The basic principle being  the water is exposed to ultrasonic sound which gives it enough energy to separate the water molecules and form a vapor.  In the fountain there is a self contained driver, some LEDs and ultrasonic transducer which a potted into a small stainless steel cylinder.  You just apply direct current to the device and it makes a light show and the water vapor mist.
 
Blessed Be Brothers...

Youse water vaporizers. that are made for room .
tje "ventilate" up to 1 liter @ hour in the room.

the are for 110 or 220v AC
but wor "internal wir 30 or 60 volt DC (different models)
that can produced very easy, (also tranfomatorless) from 12 volt
car supply (it must not used normal invers)
Pese
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: tishatang on August 02, 2008, 03:09:43 AM
@All

As I further look at the Opel engine, I think this is what they are doing?

The electric fuel pump pressure is adjustable.  See on the dash, there is a rotary multi-position switch, or it mechanically adjusts the fuel pump pressure.  The fuel line then goes to the exhaust manifold where it gets heated.  It is then squeezed down into a refrigerator capillary tube where the heated pressurized fuel then expands into an expansion chamber.  As soon as the fuel inters the expansion chamber it vaporizes because it enters a vacuum condition from the engine intake manifold.  This capillary tube and expansion chamber is probably hacked from a AC unit of appropriate size?  Adjusting the fuel line pressure gives some degree of control of the mixture, along with the choke valve on the carb controlling the air supply.  The only thing the carb is used for is the butterfly valve to control the air supply.  Upon expansion, the vaporized fuel would give up heat and cool down, but then, you have the superheated air from the carb mixing it all together in the intake manifold.

If this is the principle of vaporization, then you could even convert a fuel injected engine.  Leave the FI stuff intact, but build another fuel system with its own pump and variable pressure regulator.  Run the fuel line coiled up inside the exhaust manifold heat riser designed for a hot air intake for a carburetor engine.  Then run it into a capillary tube/expansion chamber and then through a solenoid valve to engine vacuum of the plenum chamber of the FI system.  After the engine warms up, you flip the switch turning off the FI system and turning on the vapor system.  The FI air plenum chamber has its own butterfly valve to control air flow.  Lots of variables to tune to get it right, but maybe doable?

Maybe someone has a small lawn mower engine to try and see if the AC capillary/expansion tube hack works?
It is just an idea in my head.  I am not in a position to try it and see if it works.

Tishatang





Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: allcanadian on August 02, 2008, 05:02:15 PM
I just posted this in another thread and thought you might find this interesting ;D

Quote
I would agree, however your statement in itself gives us a clue as to the direction we should be heading. A lean AFR will "melt the pistons", as the expansion ratio(pressure) thus power developed is based on a rise in temperature in the cylinder how is it that a lean mixture can produce more heat?. In another thread I recalled how 20 years ago I was running a 1600cc VW engine on 80% methanol and had 8" blue flames coming out my 10" zoomy pipes(short exhaust pipes on each cylinder). I was running super lean and as you say super HOT, the issue was easily solved with proportional water injection and I retained all if not more power in the process of running a very lean methanol AFR. In truth most ICE's add extra fuel to "cool" the cylinder which makes no sense what so ever from the stand point of efficiency when you could easily add water to accomplish the same cooling.
What is not common knowledge is that the lean AFR follows a bell curve, that is as the AFR is leaned out the cylinder temperatures gets hotter and hotter then------starts to cool down as there is not enough fuel to produce the excess temperatures. This presents new problems as we are now in an area of combustion called "detonation" combustion. 10 years ago I built a few valveless pulsejet and pulse-detonation engines to explore this area further and I will tell you the transition from a conventional burn to detonation is beyond what we consider extreme. A good quality detonation in a conventional ICE would probably throw your cylinder heads through your roof in record time. In my pulse detonation engine I used schedule 160 pressure pipe that should tell you something of the dangers involved, however if you could produced produce peak temperatures at the top of the bell curve and introduce a "moderator" such as water vapor to control the burn I think this could work. Stan Meyers used exhaust gas recirculation as a moderator(atmospheric nitrogen) to control the combustion speed in his HHO injectors as can be seen in his patents.
I know this may seem a little off topic but if we are dealing with efficient "combustion" it helps to know the facts you are not going to read in the textbooks.
If you are going to vaporize fuel and lean out the AFR you should know there are "issues" to deal with.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: petersone on August 02, 2008, 05:39:13 PM
Hi z.monkey
I would like to try your idea of ultrasonics on a ride on mower,however,I don't understand "plenum of the intake manifold pointed up at the base of the carburetor"in particular plenum, also the ultrasonic apparatus I would require.
I would be thankful for your advice on the above.
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: CRANKYpants on August 02, 2008, 07:00:00 PM
HELLO ALL,

IS ANYONE FAMILIAR WITH THESE PEOPLE? http://www.fuelvaporcar.com/index.html
THEY ARE GETTING 92 MPG IN THEIR 5 SEC 0-60 MPH CAR!

I JUST SENT THEM THIS:

CHEERS
Thane

Fw: New Generator Technology featured in Canadian Business Magazine

Dear FuelVapor,
 
My name is Thane Heins and I am the inventor of the Perepiteia Generator which has the proven capacity to recharge electric automobile batteries during 100% of the car's operation - not just in regenerative braking mode.
 
Our generator technology does not cause any deceleration under load (according to Lenz's Law) in fact our generator causes the prime mover to accelerate. Please see enclosed Ottawa University test data and demo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vruf7s9PaA
 
Recently we have been featured in the Canadian Business Magazine and GQ Magazine is covering our technology in their October "Green Issue".
 
Neil Young has been in touch with us several times and he has expressed interest in using our generator technology in his X Prize LincVolt entry. We have presented our technology to MIT and NASA has also requested a demonstration.
 
We would like to offer our technology to your Canadian team as well.
I hope you find this interesting.
 
Congratulations and Best Wishes
Thane
 
Thane C. Heins
President - Potential +/- Difference Inc.
Perepiteia Generator Inventor
(613) 256.4684
(613) 795.1602 (cell)
 
p.s.
PART 1 can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaf9v0K-rZw&feature=related
PART 2 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmFbINO0dCU&feature=related
 
 
 
"Concern for man and his fate must always form the chief interest of all technical endeavors. Never forget this in the midst of your diagrams and equations. "
- Albert Einstein
 
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
 - Gandhi                                             
 
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on August 02, 2008, 07:26:07 PM
THANE C HEINS  A MAN THAT MAKES HISTORY  AND A BETTER FUTURE  thankyou   just doesn't do it    Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: CRANKYpants on August 02, 2008, 07:40:48 PM
THANE C HEINS  A MAN THAT MAKES HISTORY  AND A BETTER FUTURE  thankyou   just doesn't do it    Chet

WELL AS MY "INNOVATION POSTER" SAYS...
"THE BEST WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE IS TO CREATE IT".

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SEE US ALL TAKE THE "ENERGY CARD" AWAY FROM THE WAR MONGERS.

CHEERS
Thane
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: tsimonin on August 03, 2008, 02:44:02 PM
Hi... Just want every one to look at my experiments with gas vapor. www.youtube.com/tsimonin
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on August 03, 2008, 03:52:35 PM
Hi... Just want every one to look at my experiments with gas vapor. www.youtube.com/tsimonin

Very good video
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kremlin01 on August 03, 2008, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: tsimonin on Today at 12:44:02 PM
Hi... Just want every one to look at my experiments with gas vapor. www.youtube.com/tsimonin

Hey tsi: it looks good, a little aggressive maybe?
so much gas production, surely need some extra safety trips on it, hell of a Flame, good work.

regards,bren. :)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: exxcomm0n on August 04, 2008, 05:35:05 AM
@ tsimonin

Very nice experimentation!

I left comments on the last vid of the series.

If you have the time and materials, do you think you might want to wrap copper tubing around the exhaust pipe that was the same diameter of the fume/HHO/air delivery tube for secondary heat excitement?

So far your experiments prove "the bigger the molecule, the better the flammability" and I was wondering if it would keep on growing with more heat and act as a secondary (minor) cooling for the engine.

Just some thoughts, and I'll try to try them out myself as well. ;)

Again, nice "proofs"!

;D
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 04, 2008, 04:50:20 PM
Hi z.monkey
I would like to try your idea of ultrasonics on a ride on mower,however,I don't understand "plenum of the intake manifold pointed up at the base of the carburetor"in particular plenum, also the ultrasonic apparatus I would require.
I would be thankful for your advice on the above.
happy hunting
peter
Howdy Petersone,

Well, that example was in reference to a V8 motor with a big intake manifold where you have lots of space inside the main chamber of the manifold where the intake runners split off and go to each cylinder.  For a small engine you would have to couple the transducer to the pipe where the fuel mixture goes into the cylinder head.  I know on small Briggs and Straton engines there is a pipe which goes from the base of the carburetor to the intake side of the cylinder head.  This pipe would need to be modified to attach a fitting which would hold the ultrasonic transducer.  I am not sure if existing transducers are adequate for the task.  A regular pond fogger is a metal transducer and is sealed to keep the water out of it.  But I don't know how well it will holdup in a gasoline environment.  This will take some experimenting.  The idea behind the ultrasonics is to expose the fuel air mixture to high intensity sound at around 40 Kilohertz.  This sound energy increases the energy of the gasoline molecules and causes them to spread apart increasing the amount of air between each molecule.  This increases the efficiency of the burn generating more power with less gasoline.  It will probably require the jets in the carburetor to be changed to lean out the mixture.

I have a spare Briggs and Straton 5 horsepower engine and a pond fogger to try this with.  We need some measure of performance to test the results.  Does anyone know if there are small engine dynamometers?  Some place I could test the setup?  I guess I could come up with some test method.  Maybe use a Go-Cart as a test bed and measure its performance on a 1/8 mile drag strip.  Well I'll keep brainstorming...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: goldenequity on August 04, 2008, 04:54:56 PM
Tsimonin Moped 5 vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e79bBl0x5q4

Exciting stuff.
By pressurizing the hho output, then releasing into intake,
he demonstrates what lots of lpm hho flow could do for an engine's horsepower...
I guess regulating the hho output is a choice:
btw storing hho then regulating pressure to a demand/throttle or,
regulating hho output with amps/production on demand (safer!)

You're a brave man tsi  :o
Thanks for sharing and welcome to the thread!
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on August 06, 2008, 12:04:51 AM
I used an old lawnmower on fuel vapor, worked great, its just you need the right air vapor ratio to make it work.

My cell phone dont have sound! so crappy video :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6UlSVadXU
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 06, 2008, 10:45:10 AM
here is a little more about the history of vaporizers as well as patent numbers: pogue, ogle, etc.
this document is over 12 years old...
apologies as this has been posted before. strange the the library of congress doesn't have these documents anymore?
pogue's worst case test results were 171mpg in 1936!!!

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/wine/energdev.htm

@ all
nice work, keep at it.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 07, 2008, 02:00:35 AM
I am wondering though...

Let's assume you had a 200MPG carb and tried to put it on a brand new car.
Since the computer's fuel mapping prevents getting more MPG (unmodified controls), how would you remap the computer to accept the leaner conditions?

And what kind of emissions would the vehicle have if using such a carburetor?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 07, 2008, 02:05:36 AM
Howdy Zolar1,

Easy!  Hack the machine controller.  Read the machine code out of it.  Reverse compile it into assembly language.  Find the variables you want to change.  Modify the variables. Recompile the assembly language back into machine code.  Then reprogram the machine controller.  See!  Easy Man!

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 07, 2008, 02:09:42 AM
Ummm....ok??

How do you do all that???????  ???
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Sprocket on August 07, 2008, 02:22:30 AM
@z.monkey - do you have any hands-on experience playing with car computers?  For instance, the inventor of the Firestorm plug said in the most recent interview that it is possible to reprogram the controller via the cars diagnostics port, which I find very hard to believe!  Also, though my only eprom programming experience involved the UV-erasable types, I do know that PIC's have built-in encryption to prevent 'snooping', making them difficult to impossible to hack - and  it's a fair bet that bigoil PIC's will have more protection than those commercially available!  Of course there are 3'rd party engine management systems available but those are complete replacements rather than 'hacks'.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 07, 2008, 02:25:12 AM
Howdy Zolar1,

First your going to need an advanced degree in computer engineering.  Then intimate knowledge of microcontroller systems.  Next having all the manufacturers documentation of the fuel system in question would help.  Then the source code for the machine controller and the schematic of the machine controller and all of the datasheets for all the parts on the machine controller would be a really big help.  Basically if you have none of these things there is not a thing that you can do about it.

A 200 MPG carburetor is only going to work on a car that is older that a 1982 model.  That is when they started putting engine management systems in cars.  Modern fuel management systems are not only proprietary, they are locked solid.  There is no way you could possibly hack them.  It would take you less time to build your own engine management system from scratch.  This is another way that automotive manufacturers ensure that you don't tamper with the fuel system and use less gasoline.  It is collusion with the oil companies, and another reason they make epic profits screwing you the customer.

Get a early model (early 1980's) Toyota Corona or a Celica, they have good motors.  Then make a new carburetor for it.  With the 4 cylinder motor your going to get the best efficiency.  You will basically have to rebuild an entire car to get what you are looking for because the cars that are capable of being rebuilt in this manner are old.  New cars are not generally capable of being re-engineered in this manner by a mechanic.  You would have to be an Uber-Engineer to acomplish the task.

BTW, before I was being facetious...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 07, 2008, 02:28:08 AM
Howdy Sprocket,

The EEPROM that you are talking about contains the variables for the system and not the executable code for the operating system.  Unless you are an assembly language programmer with intimate knowledge of engine management controllers there is not a lot that you can do...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 07, 2008, 02:42:54 AM
Ok, I am Sooooooooo screwed!

So, my best bet would be to keep trying to fool what I already have....

I wonder if someone makes a reverse performance chip??
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 07, 2008, 02:52:17 AM
Howdy Zolar1,

Performance chips usually use more gasoline to make more power.  Cheating the sensors is feasible.  If you make a circuit to change the voltage coming back from the exhaust oxygen sensor you can fool the system into leaning out the mixture, or visa versa...

Blessed Be Brothers...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Sprocket on August 07, 2008, 03:14:18 AM
Ok, I am Sooooooooo screwed!

So, my best bet would be to keep trying to fool what I already have....

I wonder if someone makes a reverse performance chip??

If you are really keen, alternatives exist!

http://www.diyautotune.com/ (http://www.diyautotune.com/)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: allcanadian on August 07, 2008, 06:26:58 PM
@zolar1
Quote
I am wondering though...
Let's assume you had a 200MPG carb and tried to put it on a brand new car.
Since the computer's fuel mapping prevents getting more MPG (unmodified controls), how would you remap the computer to accept the leaner conditions?
And what kind of emissions would the vehicle have if using such a carburetor?

I would agree with z.monkey, you have zero percent chance of hacking the cars computer. If I had a 200mpg carb I would split the intake air flow into two sections 1)stock system for idling and 2) 200 mpg carb for running higher speeds.
Consider the control loops present in a modern vehicle, timing is a function of RPM measured at the crank as is the fuel injection but fuel is also tied in to the map sensor----no increasing air flow through map sensor on stock system means no extra fuel added but ignition timing may still follow the crank pickup signals. In this case maybe we could fool the engine into thinking it was always idling as far as the fuel system was concerned but other variable like timing would remain unchanged. Another option is to Hack the O2 sensor to run lean then use a thermocouple at the engine exhaust to vary a water injection system to keep the exhaust gas temperature constant so you don't smoke your valves and pistons.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on August 07, 2008, 06:38:26 PM
Personaly I hope Z gets his coil array working so we can do what Hubbard did with the 35hp elec motor almost 100yrs ago [in our cars]   Chet
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 08, 2008, 02:37:53 AM
Thanks Ramset! I appreciate the vote of confidence.

I am making a new and different cell. It's only 8" tall, plates are 3" x 7" and it's a simple series cell.

I have 7 plates drawing around 12 amps after 1 hour. I do not have the leakage current (AKA sides) insulated yet.

I was thinking about adding 2 more plates, but once I insulate the cell, I may not get enough production due to the higher efficiency.

I noticed that once you seal the sides from leakage current, the amps go WAY DOWN. And so does production it seems....
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: b0rg13 on August 08, 2008, 03:37:01 AM
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Gun_Engine

 8)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: tishatang on August 08, 2008, 06:17:08 AM
Hi All

We can double mileage if we follow all the steps outlined here:

http://www.brightgreen.us/lubedev/smartgas/ultra5.htm

In this case, it helps to have a '95 or later car to connect a ScanGuage to the computer terminal.  Instant readout of mileage to find best gas in your neighborhood and to monitor changes  you do to see if mileage increases.  I found the site yesterday and read all the articles.  Unfortunately, my Toyota is a '93, so I can not use a Scanguage.  This is the man who first advised the use of acetone as an additive 50 years ago.  He is now publishing all his secrets to better mileage because of suppression by the oil cartels and paid off politicians.  He did not give details of his floatless FOG carb.  I suspect it is a vaporization process?

Tishatang
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: maxc on August 10, 2008, 01:06:58 AM
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Gun_Engine

 8)
Nice find.   I know a guy who ran direct cly injection of water at 300C and 3000psi. Almost blew the head off the engine(streched headbolts, wasted head gasket,cracked pistons).
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kremlin01 on August 18, 2008, 12:46:51 PM
Hi Folks, anyone know if 'dirt diggler' made progress with his v8 car?
Cheers Bren.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: norman6538 on August 21, 2008, 02:39:05 AM
double the mileage I doubt. I made a pickle jar carburetor and it got 30% more than stock but using coleman fuel - camping gasolene - it gets double the runtime.

There is a patented carb similar to this multitube idea. The real trick is to heat it so the evaporation cooling does not stop the evaporization.


Normam
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 21, 2008, 03:15:49 AM
Thanks Ramset! I appreciate the vote of confidence.

I am making a new and different cell. It's only 8" tall, plates are 3" x 7" and it's a simple series cell.

I have 7 plates drawing around 12 amps after 1 hour. I do not have the leakage current (AKA sides) insulated yet.

I was thinking about adding 2 more plates, but once I insulate the cell, I may not get enough production due to the higher efficiency.

I noticed that once you seal the sides from leakage current, the amps go WAY DOWN. And so does production it seems....

OK, that one didn't work very well. So I cut it in half and redid the thing. Waiting for the glue to dry.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ramset on August 21, 2008, 04:42:16 AM
Zolar  sorry my post seemed to disrespect you  It was not my intent AT ALL  Chet PS Dr Stiffler[Cold electricity thread] has a very high efficiency HHO Cell he is working on [96%] Hopefully he will continue to share the results
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 21, 2008, 08:25:36 PM
OK, that one didn't work very well. So I cut it in half and redid
Zolar  sorry my post seemed to disrespect you  It was not my intent AT ALL  Chet PS Dr Stiffler[Cold electricity thread] has a very high efficiency HHO Cell he is working on [96%] Hopefully he will continue to share the results
Zolar  sorry my post seemed to disrespect you  It was not my intent AT ALL  Chet PS Dr Stiffler[Cold electricity thread] has a very high efficiency HHO Cell he is working on [96%] Hopefully he will continue to share the results

Oh no, I didn't take it that way. Please reread my comment above about the vote of confidence.

I discovered that Scangauge is HIGHLY inaccurate. I did a test drive today. Put 21 miles on the car. Scangauge read 48mpg. My actual mileage (combined expressway and city) was about 20MPG.
EFIE was disabled, no map mods either. Just straight Brown's gas.

*sigh* . . . . .
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 21, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
I wonder.... anyone try electrolyzing gasoline?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: goldenequity on August 27, 2008, 06:15:20 AM
Yes! (sort of.. ;) )e
It appears as though they have electrolysed and ionized water, then trapped the Brown's gas in sub-micron bubbles evenly dispersed and emulsified throughout a fossil fuel (in their case, kerosene) and are running diesel engines and furnaces with this 50/50 emulsion mix of water and fuel.
Check it out.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5450.msg123278/topicseen.html#msg123278
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: LarryC on August 28, 2008, 03:41:41 PM
Fuel vapor car!

http://www.greentechgazette.com/index.php/hybrid-cars/fuel-vapor-technologies-ale-running-on-fumes/

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: ResinRat2 on August 28, 2008, 03:51:58 PM
Fuel vapor car!
http://www.greentechgazette.com/index.php/hybrid-cars/fuel-vapor-technologies-ale-running-on-fumes/
Regards, Larry

It's always the same old story. Too expensive and unconventional for the average Joe.

Look at this car, $75,000 cost and to top it off it's a THREE wheeler. What the Frack? Useless for us right now.

My kingdom for a family-sized sedan that seats five passengers comfortably, looks like a normal car, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. No such animal exists yet. I wonder why?
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 28, 2008, 11:20:53 PM
Best I could come up with that was cheap enough is HERE: http://tinyurl.com/6m99ez
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 28, 2008, 11:43:17 PM
Here's an older stripped down model: http://tinyurl.com/6d8uba
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on August 29, 2008, 02:17:52 AM
Howdy Zolar1,

That's cute, I really like it.  I like mine better...

Blessed Be...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on August 29, 2008, 05:30:13 AM
Well, thanks!

I am having a problem though. It seems the car's computer absolutely refuses to adjust the injector pulse width in order for me to gain better MPG.

I have an EFIE and a MAP mod. I even switched back to baking soda to try and trick the computer into leaning the mix. Still my efforts are in vain.

Any suggestions - CHEAP ones?

Also, I have a theory about this problem. But I would need an automotive expert to advise me.

I want to fool with the TPS. Make the computer think I am not stepping on the gas as much. Perhaps that might narrow the pulse width timing?

I wish I could engineer my own electronic controls. I would make a comparator circuit between the TPS and the MAP sensors. As the TPS value went up, the MAP would go up proportionally at a rate smaller than it would normally read.
Better yet, as the true TPS went up, adjust the TPS voltage at an adjustable rate to make the computer think I'm not stepping on the gas pedal as much. What I mean is if the TPS said my throttle angle was 30 under normal operating conditions, perhaps a control chip or resistor would make the computer think it's only 20 or 25 thus not dumping fuel.

I am writing this here because even if vaporization worked as described, the injector pulse width would still dump fuel at it's predetermined rate.

I'm beginning to think that the MAP mods are less important than a TPS mod.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: captainwho on September 01, 2008, 04:16:39 PM

Any suggestions - CHEAP ones?


I'm not sure what you'd consider cheap but google "digital fuel adjuster".  This device may be suitable for what you want to do.  I think ultimately the way to go about this is with a piggyback flash programmable ECU device like the Tweecer or Emanage.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on September 01, 2008, 07:08:49 PM
Thanks for the info.

It seems that the vast majority of fuel saving devices are engineered for gas guzzlers, and not for normal cars.

I'll keep looking. Again, thanks for trying!
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: captainwho on September 01, 2008, 08:41:32 PM
I don't get you, but whatever you say!
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on September 02, 2008, 04:18:15 AM
What I mean is this: Most of the fuel saving items you mentioned are for vehicles with bigger engines than normal cars have. Particularly Mustangs and larger V8's. The sites didn't show anything for smaller normal cars.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: captainwho on September 02, 2008, 05:11:18 AM
Okay, I don't think that you googled "digital fuel adjuster" like I suggested did you?  Also, the ECU reprogrammers are not just for large engines.  I'm contemplating using the tweecer on a Ford EEC-V computer that is on a 1997 Ford Ranger 2.3 L pickup.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: captainwho on September 02, 2008, 04:18:54 PM
I am very against altering the ECU programming, as this makes going
back to "Stock" for inspection problematic.

I agree, that's why I'm only considering piggyback devices like the Tweecer.  It mounts on the ECU, you download the existing program into it, then you can modify the program at you leisure at your desktop computer.  In the car you have a 4 position switch.  Position 1 is the original ECU program and the other 3 positions are whatever programs you have made.  You never modify anything in the ECU.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Area 51 on September 04, 2008, 01:23:14 AM
Howdy Zolar1,

That's cute, I really like it.  I like mine better...

Blessed Be...

Now that's more like it.
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kalnai on September 04, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
I have a 96 nissan altima.  I have disconnected both oxygen sensors (check engine light did not come on).  I don't know why.  I also have a variable resistor (pot) on the leads to the mass air flow sensor, which I can lean out far enough to stall the engine.  This works for me. 

I have an idea about vaporization.  The normal engine has radiator coolant going through the intake manifold to warm it up for better fuel vaporization.  Is it possible to run hot exhaust through these passages instead of radiator coolant to heat it up far more?  Without damaging anything.  Any ideas?

Thanks
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: Zolar1 on September 05, 2008, 05:22:38 AM
I think you are describing what the EGR circuit does, indirectly.

Some of the hot EGR gasses do pass through the intake manifold to be reburned. So, some of the additional heat should be transferred as well.

FYI: The US EPA is currently testing a new device called a 'Pre Ignition Catalytic Converter' which is purportedly able to increase the MPG on an SUV as high as 100MPG.
This remains to be seen though...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: kinesisfilms on September 12, 2008, 09:43:23 AM
just to let everyone know this exact method of pulling the air through the fuel was first created by eagle research back in the 70's and he sells kits for carb and efi systems....

the guy who runs this site is an expert and is completely legitimate and experienced...he has step by step videos of how to make the kit too.

http://www.eagle-research.com/ (http://www.eagle-research.com/)
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: hartiberlin on September 23, 2008, 11:39:37 PM
Can somebody post please, what maximum mileage increase he did
get with the various systems he tested ?
Many thanks.

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: plasmastudent77 on September 29, 2008, 04:01:45 AM
Yay verily kind vapour experimenter people, here are some important points to consider ( and will make your life easier.....)

(1) If you run fumes, you need to run water injection as most normal car engines require  20% - 30% of fuel being unburnt in order to keep the exhaust valves cool by the exhaust vales being spalshed with the unburnt fuel ( this is a fact ). Water injection stops the exhaust valves being burnt out by lean running ( which is what running on fumes is ) by substituting water for the unburnt fuel. In theory too using water injection and fumes you could run even higher compression ratios with a turbo than is currently possible. This would allow a very lean and high power motor.

(2) You dont need to be worried about the existing engine computer on your car - if you run fumes you effectively make it redundant as its set up for liquid fuel operation, not fumes. A fumes system becomes a faily mechnical/analog system and is as complicated as a 1950s car. You could ( until you want to start squeezing more efficiency out of it ) turn off the computer and it would work fine anyways. Later you might be able to adapt the engine computer but it would require possibly different sensors located in different spots on the engine etc.

(3) You can buy aftermarket ECU ( Engine Control Unit / what we call the engine computer ) that allow you to put in a full custom engine map ( engine program ). Most after-market car performance tuners will build a map for you and probably cost $2000 ( a guess... ) but the end result would be worth it. You can buy or download DIY software for laptops I believe that will allow you to tune the engine as you drive.
If a few people want to get together, you could develop a map for one fume car, then share that map to others as needed - a sort of ECU Shareware project. You could also develop locations for sensors and use basic off the shelf cheap ones to allow others to get a fume based vehicle running cheaply. Remember simple is robust.

(4) If you ran a water/gas mix ( like a GEET set up ), you already have water injection from the water vapour in the fuel. However in very cold parts of the country this may be an issue.

My 2 cents.....
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: z.monkey on October 01, 2008, 11:06:08 PM
Howdy Y'all,

Check this out...

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3041

Make better separation of the gasoline molecules by ionizing them...

Blessed Be...
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: TheOne on October 02, 2008, 01:30:23 AM
Howdy Y'all,

Check this out...

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3041

Make better separation of the gasoline molecules by ionizing them...

Blessed Be...

This is not a new tech, its basically what the magnet gizmo do on the fuel line without any input current!
Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: PhiScience on October 02, 2008, 05:56:16 PM
Hi all,

Check out the work of Smokey Yunick and his Hot Vapor Engine.
Patent Number 4,862,859

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick)
http://grantwcooper.com/smokey.html (http://grantwcooper.com/smokey.html)
http://www.schou.dk/hvce/?mode=2 (http://www.schou.dk/hvce/?mode=2)

Title: Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
Post by: maxc on October 05, 2008, 03:18:54 PM
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/6194/vaportv4.th.jpg) (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vaportv4.jpg)(http://img366.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)Here are some of the components of my vaporizer. It's being enstalled on a old pre-emissions car. When the fuel is burnt more completely "in" the cly. The exhaust and the exhaust valve will be cooler.