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Author Topic: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE  (Read 107486 times)

Offline kremlin01

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 11:52:44 AM »
dirtdiggler, wonder do you see any application re: diesel, from this idea ?

bren.

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 11:52:44 AM »

Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2008, 02:16:38 PM »
dirtdiggler, wonder do you see any application re: diesel, from this idea ?

bren.

Hi Bren,

Yes there is a way to make it work with diesel as well, however as I understand it, the gains will not be as great, because diesel is much harder to draw the vapor out of.

ciao,   Dirt

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 05:29:55 PM »
Heya Dirt,

Good to see you found this one too (http://www.youtube.com/user/ELManlinos).

Vaporization HAS been around a long time, like water injection. It's just re-engineering engines built within the last 20 years so that they can use it.

The heat vaporization could be had (with no moving parts) by wrapping copper or stainless steel fuel delivery tubes around the exhaust manifold, but would take some R & D to get implemented and safety checked (a hot engine still creating fumes could be a bad thing ;) ).
maybe a 2nd delivery line bubbler NOT heat excited that feeds normal idle but uses the heat excited fumes for acceleration only (many small jets or injectors  to the tubes wrapping the manifold [perhaps being the flashback arrestor that would obviously be necessary] only feeding during throttle demand).

Just some thoughts, you know how I am. ;)

:D

EDIT

The diesel would DEFINITELY need the heat excite, but I wonder how it would effect the compression combustion that diesels use instead of the spark initiated ones for gasoline engines.
My cousin is a trucker/farmer that could use this type of tech right now. I'll pull on his coat tails about it a little bit and see if he's interested.

BTW....if you combine this w/ a little HHO injection, it might increase the combustion even more as others using HHO only do seem to think it helps with more complete combustion.

Just remember to remove it before your next emissions test as they like engines not producing enough emissions as much as they do ones exhausting too much.

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 05:29:55 PM »
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Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2008, 06:11:33 PM »
Hi Ex,

I figured you find your way over here ;)

I just can't believe that nothing(relatively) has been done with this tech for the last 30- 70 years.  With all the other "crack pot" idea's out there, this one seems to be easily adaptable to current engines.

I totally agree about the diesel engine problems, it would be something to look into.

Emmissions are not something we have to deal with much up here, just not enough of us driving around to draw attention ;)

ciao,  Dirt

Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2008, 06:18:27 PM »
Hello everyone,

Just finished the full load tests, engine runs great.
Running on pure vapor, no liquid at all.

Hope to test the V8 soon.

ciao,   Dirt

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2008, 06:18:27 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2008, 06:58:21 AM »
@ all

Been thinking about this a bit lately (and that's never a pretty thing) and here goes.....

@ Dirt

Been wondering how to reuse most of the fueling system with this concept as my engine resources are not that deep.

The filling neck of the fuel tank is just right for either air filtration for bubbler air in OR fume/vapor out to carb, but could you just hook up air filtration to what used to be the fuel feed line and have that be your bubbler inlet?
Think the diameter of the fuel outlet would pass enough air in?

With enough craftiness and some simple machining a small engine could be switched back and forth without too much hassle.

I understand that the bowl screw is left out for extra air needed for combustion, but could it be filtered too with a PCV valve type breather filter?

How are you thinking of addressing it for the car?
Put the carb on a riser....no wait! Just have a tube from fume production entering through the air filter holder top (difficult, but doable) into the throttle body that's got an O.D. (outside diameter) smaller than the I.D. (inside diameter) of the throttle body allowing filtered air to be drawn on demand by engine vacuum.

I was wondering also if there was a way to (mechanically) cause draw on injector holes to be the same vacuum as air induction from the throttle body for an injector based engine.

One thing that I'll ask you (Dirt) to check out soon (well, sooner than I can) is how fumage induction works when it gets cold as gas has a tendency not to play nicely that way when hitting 0 degrees C and below.

I look forward to the V8 results Dirt, and where's them vids?? ;)

Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2008, 02:44:16 PM »
Hi Ex,

Thanks for the idea's and the questions, you make some good points, the main one being temp related problems with our harsh winters, it is something we had thought of, and as we see it there are 2 simple ways around it. 

1:  heat duct off the exhaust, we use these on aircraft to supply cabin heat, and carburator heat, with a shroud on the gas tank, to slightly raise tank temp,  or

2:  fuel heater from a modern diesel, plumbed to recirculate the fuel out of the tank, through the heater, and back to the tank.

As far as the plumbing issues on the engine, it has yet to be seen exactly what will be needed.
There are other systems out there that just suplement the regular fuel delivery to increase efficency, but we are trying to do it with no outside source of fuel, so as we see it, all the existing fuel system will be removed from the engine.  This means either removing the injectors(on an injected engine), or at least the fuel line to the fuel rail.
Our plan on the V8 is to pump fuel, from the tank, with the stock pump, to our header tank in the engine bay.  This will be recirculated, with a simple line in, with a larger line out, back to the tank.  This will keep a constant supply of fuel in the tank.  The stock air filter will be retained, with the air being drawn into the sealed header tank, then to the top of the carb, or injector throttle body. On ours we plan to custom make a new tank in the engine bay, but,
as you say, there has to be a way to retroit old cars, and our plan there is to drain the tank, drill 10-20 1/2" holes in the bottom of the tank, and install on way check valves into the holes, with air lines running from those, to an air box and filter.  This way the fuel is drawn in at the bottom of the tank as needed, then just a simple adapter from the fuel gauge sender access cap in the top of the tank for the oulet air to the engine.

Hope you can make sense of my ramblings, I haven't got my coffee yet :P

ciao,  Dirt

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2008, 02:44:16 PM »
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Online ramset

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2008, 03:00:31 PM »
Dirt  have you looked at Geet yet  70 water to 30 fuel same results can be retro    fuel vapor [gas ] can get pretty BUSY  without much help
flight 800 comes to mind [on jet fuel]  Chet

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
Heya Dirt,

I'm wish sure and strong caffination @ ya brotha! ;D

The "cold" issue was to bring up the question of how do you use choke w/ fumes?

The heater idea gets back into heat excite we touched upon above, but unless it's like the diesel one, it'll still need boatloads of gas to start and run until heat up.

Careful with using the stock fuel pump as it's used to a specific duty and might overflow your fume generation chamber. Might not too, I dunno. ;)

On the injector thing, I meant replacing the injecter with a straight tube in and then trying to redirect the vacuum to pull on the injector port and throttle body equally (or the applicable amount necessary).

Will using the fuel gauge access cap as an outlet mean you lose that functionality? (fuel level)

Good thinkin so far though Mr.

Kudos!

:D


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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
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Offline starcruiser

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2008, 05:00:43 PM »
A Thought on this car mod,

How about using the secondary tank as Dirt suggests (I was thinking on this as well for a mod on my lawn tractor) and use an electric fuel pump and an injector to spray the fuel into the secondary tank, have the drain line at the bottom of the  secondary send excess fuel back to the primary tank.

The use of the electric injector would allow finer control of the air fuel mixture especially during demand. The injector could be controlled by a simple 555 timer circuit (pulse train/frequency) put a POT on the linkage of the throttle or on a newer vehicle by tapping the throttle position sensor to send control voltage back to the injector circuit.

What do ya think?

Online ramset

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2008, 05:32:16 PM »
ALL  backfire BOOM static BOOM friction BOOM  unexpected heat BOOM  need to be addressed in the presence of gas in vapor form   having as little vapor as possible in the circuit before combustion would be a good idea [do it in the carb?]GEET is also a good idea    Chet PS there are fellows here that played big time  with geet some vapor misbehaving[boom] problems and claims of fuel [gasoline]refiners changing formulas to make this harder to do Perhaps those fellows would comment here

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2008, 05:32:16 PM »
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Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2008, 05:46:38 PM »
Chet,

Thanks for the warning, it is something that we have been trying to get our head around,  could be a really big bang if we have a back fire.  Not sure just yet how to deal with this possibility.  Anyone have an idea?

Ex,

Ahhhhh, sorry misunderstood your coment about cold temps.   The system we have right now on the tractor, already takes this into consideration, if you look at the pics, you will see that not all the holes have lines attached, this allows the mixing of vapor and fresh air.  When we start the motor, we plug the air only ones, for a richer mixture of vapor, then open them to lean as required.   On our new system for the V8, we are using a second butterfly to adjust the mixture by use of a second "choke" cable.
Your idea of mixing through the vacuum line is a very good one, and might help aleviate some of the danger of an explosion.

Sorry no vids yet, we made one, but it was on a cell phone camera, and quality really suffered, will make a new one with a better camera asap.

ciao,  Dirt


Online ramset

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2008, 06:01:30 PM »
Dirt most of the ideas on this apply to HHO check valves bubblers  not sure about cross over to fuel on another note I wonder what a plasma plug would do here as they   JUST THOUGHT OF A CONCERN PHANTOM SPARK IN YOUR MOWER   Chet PS small one cyl recips spark every cycle [360] BAD backfire risk

Offline starcruiser

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2008, 06:07:25 PM »
my thought on the tractor is on a 2 cyl unit and using the current intake manifold, just redirecting the fuel to a secondary vaporizing tank as Dirt suggested.

Offline dirt diggler

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Re: FUEL VAPORIZATION, DOUBLES MILEAGE
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2008, 06:28:46 PM »
ALL  backfire BOOM static BOOM friction BOOM  unexpected heat BOOM  need to be addressed in the presence of gas in vapor form   having as little vapor as possible in the circuit before combustion would be a good idea [do it in the carb?]GEET is also a good idea    Chet PS there are fellows here that played big time  with geet some vapor misbehaving[boom] problems and claims of fuel [gasoline]refiners changing formulas to make this harder to do Perhaps those fellows would comment here


Chet

You raise VERY good points.
This could potentially be very dangerous.   
I will look into the geet, don't know anything about it.
Something interesting is that we have been doing all these tests with avgas, 100 octane low lead.
As you know, this is highly refined, with none of the aditives of car gas.  this could be why we are having such good luck with the operation of our engine.

ciao,   Dirt

 

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