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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Alexioco on July 21, 2008, 08:30:28 PM

Title: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 21, 2008, 08:30:28 PM
Ok I think I finally have it, here is how to make a wheel work...

If you get an equal amount of heavy weights and an equal amount of light weights here is what we can do.

If you get the heavy weights and attach them into a wheel in such a way that they are all applying presure to eachother so that it just takes a little force to lift the top and bottom weights, the weights would need to be inter connected some way.

Now we add the light weights that make hardly any difference to the wheel but are capable of lifting the heavy weights up due to their interconnection. Then we have perpetual motion, what do you think?

P.S I'm going to try and make an exmaple, this is something I want us all to have ago at...
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 21, 2008, 09:10:28 PM
Ok here is just an example...

Here we have weighted levers with right angle levers.

The bottom right hand weight will push down on the right angle causing the top weight to fall out pushing on that right angle which will then cause the top left hand weight to become light, maybe even lift, if it lifts then the bottom lefthand weight will also try to lift out, if it lifts out (which I doubt) it will then cause the bottom right hand weight to push out even strong, get the point?

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2n72nhe.jpg)

Now this idea could be put into a much more effective lever movement then little weights could be added to help lift the large weights which will then cause the said movement  ;)

This wheel is nearly alive and it is completely self operating unlike weights that just fall...
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: dirt diggler on July 21, 2008, 09:48:17 PM
Alexioco

This is one of you best ones yet Alex.  It might even be better with only three arms, or 5, so that it disrupts the balance easier.

This design kinda goes more the way I think about Besseler, very simple,  but shows promise.

Keep at it.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: broli on July 21, 2008, 10:06:31 PM
I think this wheel has more than meets the eye. My mind couldn't simulate it so I just gave wm2d a spin and it has a very unusual behavior. I'll test some more and then show the results.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: therealrasta on July 21, 2008, 10:11:27 PM
Wow.. Nice design.. What kind of friction/force loses are you going to get from the levers pushing the weights around... Hopefully less than you gain from the gravity action?  Not sure.. Looks possible..Would like to see more.. Thanks
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on July 21, 2008, 10:16:36 PM
Alex

 I do find this one interesting. Not as it is drawn but what I think it could be. Translated is I see something I like.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 21, 2008, 11:25:29 PM
Its a way of moving the weights lightly with a little weight as they are all trying to lift themselves, I like the idea of 3 weights. You see IMO the perpetual wheel has to control itself in every way so that it?s possible it can fall apart if not adjusted correctly, know what I mean? The wheel has to take are of its self, it has to hold itself together, move itself, control itself, it has to be aliveeeeee :)

There will be more ways than this, but this shows how to make a heavy weight light in order for a light weight to lift them upwards... It has no beggining and no end unlike wheels that have rolling balls and falling levers...

IMO this is what bessler is getting at in MT 9, weights have to pull eachother in order to become light so that the little weights can move the large weights without effecting the operation of the wheel, the "said" movement...

P.S This is one i'm going to build, I can't wait to learn from it, also would like to see the Wm2d animation of it :)

I would  very much like to see what Alan has as I might be able to do something with it and crack this wheel, it does not matter "who" finds it, the joy of seeing it is what should make us tic....

Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: DrWhat on July 22, 2008, 12:23:58 AM
Alex, you are very clever. I agree, this is the sort of broad interconnection idea we need to be looking at. A system that creates a spiral of force in a sense.

You have just started to make a lot of people think.

Well done!

Damian
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 22, 2008, 12:38:30 AM
Thank you for the compliment...

I think that there will be better ways than this though; I first need to find out how this thing reacts before I go any further.

Its easy to make a weight in a wheel to move the distance of a quarter circle, but to make one move a half circle is something else, if I or anyone here can use the above idea to make weights swing from the axle to the rim will get us a lot closer. I am going to look later about how to go about it... There are people here who are more mathematically better than me (my math?s is terrible) so may find a way to do it, don?t forget though, once the half movement is found, then the little weights can be added to the equation.

P.S I made another topic called "toy page connection?" you may find that quite interesting...

Edit: also if/when we find a gravity powered wheel, we then can work on simplifying it until its so simple people will be in disbelief, lol

If anyone has any good ideas for this, please let me know :)
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: yoyo on July 22, 2008, 07:18:38 AM
yes your wheels are vary complicated but i liked the videos of your past stuff keep them coming
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 22, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
yes your wheels are vary complicated but i liked the videos of your past stuff keep them coming

Thanks my friend :)

I have now tried the mechanism with 3 weights, but I think 4 weights is strong because its two trying to lift two, where with 3 its 1 trying to lift 2, having said that, 2 does lift one at certain times and it could be improved to make 2 always lifting one, but for now, here we go...

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2unvmn7.jpg)

the bottom weight pushes down on the right angle which causes the top weight to push out which causes the left hand weight to push out which cause the bottom weight to push down etc etc...
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 22, 2008, 04:29:52 PM
Ok I have just found my great one ever...

It would look just like MT 137 if I placed it around the axle...

Its two weights that are trying to lift eachother up to an over balanced point which will keep repeating...
The weights are inter connected and its power is in itself...

I dont want to reveal this here because other people have found good things (not hinting) that wont release theirs, and if I show this it will help them to much and feed their ego's...

Anyway, anyone who is interested in working with me in this, then reply to me at
grandtheftauto_iv@yahoo.co.uk

thanks  8)
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Sprocket on July 22, 2008, 09:44:54 PM
Your good ideas just keep coming! :)

Well, I had a go with WM2D but it just sees my effort as a perfectly balanced wheel (file attached)...

Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 22, 2008, 11:15:15 PM
Your good ideas just keep coming! :)

Well, I had a go with WM2D but it just sees my effort as a perfectly balanced wheel (file attached)...



Thanks sprocket, I'm going to reveal my other mechanism which lookes like MT 137

(http://i34.tinypic.com/1e1imq.jpg)

This is the wheel.

How it works:

There are two levers
(http://i35.tinypic.com/14sedck.jpg)
Notice that the lever on the right will swing to the right and down, the lever on the left will just hang there.

Now we add the connection between the two levers
(http://i34.tinypic.com/1e1imq.jpg)

Notice that now when the lever on the right goes to swing to the right and down, the oposite end of the lever will push up trying to push the top weight up. As it tries to push the top lever up, the oposite end of the top lever will try to push the bottom weight down in which creates an inward force...

Also, when I was messing around with this stuff today I was starting to realise the amount of ways you can make weights lift themselfs using other etc...

Now that I have showed you this, I would very much like to work with somone based on these things to try and make a way to lift a heavy weight lightly to and from the axle of a wheel without effecting the wheels operation, there a re lot's of things I can go through with you that I have learnt...


Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: ramset on July 23, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
Alexioco amazing ideas !! Chet
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 23, 2008, 08:48:22 PM
Ok, you all thought that was amazing? Well wait till you see what I have just come up with...

This pure mechanism may have the capabitly not to cause a light weight to lift a heavy weight, but a weight that may even rise itself through its own weight, now how does that sound?

Its going to be hard to explain this even with this picture (I have colour coded it to help)

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2j3r01z.jpg)

Here we have the main lever (red) second lever (blue) a presure lever (green) and a second presure lever (black) with a grey weight.

When the grey weight is placed in the presure lever this is what happens.

ps. the green presure lever slides down

The weight pushes the black presure lever down which pushes down on the green presure lever that pushes on the blue lever, the other end of the blue lever pushes up on the red lever which pushes the ball up. You see as the green presure lever is going down the weight is going up :)

Edit: lol it will be very strange if this works because if you took the weight out and pushed down where the weight would be, your hand would be pushed up with more power out than in, you would have to push to lift it haha
You could put another little weight at the far end of the red lever which will lift the large weight up if it doesnt lift itself.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: broli on July 23, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
Ok, you all thought that was amazing? Well wait till you see what I have just come up with...

This pure mechanism may have the capabitly not to cause a light weight to lift a heavy weight, but a weight that may even rise itself through its own weight, now how does that sound?

Its going to be hard to explain this even with this picture (I have colour coded it to help)

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2j3r01z.jpg)

Here we have the main lever (red) second lever (blue) a presure lever (green) and a second presure lever (black) with a grey weight.

When the grey weight is placed in the presure lever this is what happens.

ps. the green presure lever slides down

The weight pushes the black presure lever down which pushes down on the green presure lever that pushes on the blue lever, the other end of the blue lever pushes up on the red lever which pushes the ball up. You see as the green presure lever is going down the weight is going up :)

You could put another little weight at the far end of the red lever which will lift the large weight up if it doesnt lift itself.


To what is the joint of the black lever attached? To the background or to the red lever?
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 23, 2008, 09:30:50 PM
The red lever
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Sprocket on July 24, 2008, 01:56:30 PM
WM2D would tend to suggest that this won't work...
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Sprocket on July 24, 2008, 02:46:36 PM
While I'm on the WM2D theme (again!) - here's a better attempt at the original idea.  Basically allowing the weights to rotate on their individual levers, to better allow the effect of the acting weight to propagate around the circle.  Unfortunately, while it does now require less weight to 'loop-the-loop', it is still needs to be considerably heavier than its fellow weights...
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 24, 2008, 04:38:51 PM
WM2D would tend to suggest that this won't work...

Sprocket, thanks for your help, thanks :)

I wouldn?t trust that too much though, also something is a little wrong, and that?s that the main lever fell down which shouldn?t have happened the lower pressure lever should have pushed it up or just keep it up. Maybe a little redesigning could be done because I don?t see why this won?t work at all...

You see, as long as the weight applies its pressure to the downward lever, then it should try to lift the main lever, which is the very thing the weight is resting on, then just a little force is needed to lift the weight, I really can?t see why that won?t work?

Here is my perpetual machine if it works.

When the ball rolls to the left and goes onto the balck bit, the see saw is lifted and it rolls to the other side and repeats the process...

Other weights may have to be assited which the big weight would have to lift on and of each side of the see saw...
(http://i38.tinypic.com/4zuo9i.jpg)
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: hartiberlin on July 24, 2008, 05:20:41 PM
Hi Alexioco,
nice ideas, but I think the only working solution
will be found, if you use aditionally the centrifugal forces.

Your last idea, where your ball lifts itsself, will
only work, if the other lever units will be heavy enough
and their weight goes down.

So these devices are all too static and the center of gravity of the whole
device inclusive the levers and all moving parts will always go down.

But we need a device, where the center of gravity will always be able
to lift itsself over the axis.

This in my experience can only be achieved by using
1. springs in the design to store the weight-movement?s energy in springs
and later reuse the weights by them being pulled back via the stored spring energy
or
2. using centrifugal forces to unbalance the wheel
constantly.

But a design without springs or not using centrifugal forces will
never work as the center of gravity always moves down.


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 24, 2008, 08:37:40 PM
Ok I think I have found it, here we go...

(http://i34.tinypic.com/sw7bco.jpg)

Ok here we have a long see saw with a heavy weight in the middle, there are two light weights placed either side of the see saw. Both light weights weigh 4 ounce each and the large weight weighs 10 ounces which is heavier than the two light weights together...

So we know that the large weight can lift the light weights, but also the light weights can lift the heavy weight because they are further from the axle than the large weight.

When the large weight rolls to the left, it will push down the left-hand side of the see saw causing the light weight on the right to fall onto the see saw and the light weight on the left to raise up therefore causing the large weight to roll back to the right, this then continues.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: greendoor on July 26, 2008, 06:46:47 AM
The problem with using leverage to lift a heavy weight with a light weight is that you are trading force for distance.  Yes - the lighter weight can lift the heavier weight - but in doing so it falls a further distance.  The COG falls - and therefore needs lifting back up again.  Any energy gained in raising the heavy weight is going to be required in full to raise the light weight back up again.  The best you can hope for is a perfectly balanced system - less losses. 
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 26, 2008, 01:40:54 PM
The problem with using leverage to lift a heavy weight with a light weight is that you are trading force for distance.  Yes - the lighter weight can lift the heavier weight - but in doing so it falls a further distance.  The COG falls - and therefore needs lifting back up again.  Any energy gained in raising the heavy weight is going to be required in full to raise the light weight back up again.  The best you can hope for is a perfectly balanced system - less losses. 

yes but when the large weight rolls to the next side, it will ift it with ease because its heavier plus on the same side of the axle as the little weight it lifts
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: erickdt on July 26, 2008, 03:05:13 PM
Wherever the pivot points are on the wheel where your arms are connected will be the only place that bares the weight, regardless of how the arms are orientated on the pivots.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: markh on July 26, 2008, 08:04:53 PM
Here's a question.   If you had a lever that was balanced halfway between the edge of the wheel and the center of the wheel.   ( ie a 2 foot radius, with a two foot lever.  The center of the lever is a peg or bearing half way between the center and the right of the wheel, )   Say it's equally balanced with one pound on each end.      Is there a difference between where the center of that lever is if it is free to rotate, versus if it is somehow attached to the side of the wheel.

What I'm getting at, is if you had four of those, and the ones on one side rotated to attach one weight to thee end of the wheel, but the ones on the other side were rotated to keep all of the weight on the center of it's lever (halfway between the center and edge)   would this create an inbalanced wheel?




Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: broli on July 26, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
Here's a question.   If you had a lever that was balanced halfway between the edge of the wheel and the center of the wheel.   ( ie a 2 foot radius, with a two foot lever.  The center of the lever is a peg or bearing half way between the center and the right of the wheel, )   Say it's equally balanced with one pound on each end.      Is there a difference between where the center of that lever is if it is free to rotate, versus if it is somehow attached to the side of the wheel.

What I'm getting at, is if you had four of those, and the ones on one side rotated to attach one weight to thee end of the wheel, but the ones on the other side were rotated to keep all of the weight on the center of it's lever (halfway between the center and edge)   would this create an inbalanced wheel?

The answer is no. Whether it's horizontal or vertical the total weight on the peg will stay the same. It's like asking whether the scale will give you a smaller number if you lay on it instead of stand on it.
Title: Re: Pereptual Motion Wheel
Post by: Alexioco on July 26, 2008, 10:05:12 PM
Hey broli, I always like your comments, what do you think about this idea, its slightly improved

(http://i38.tinypic.com/25flz6e.jpg)

P.S I would like to work with you on some sort of wheel?