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Author Topic: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?  (Read 10680 times)

lon92

• Newbie
• Posts: 39
LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« on: December 17, 2010, 08:20:57 PM »
Hi y'all!!
Lately, I'm been playing with LTspice software on my PC to design a resonated water splitter...

After reading some Bob Boyce and Stanley Meyer PDFs as my references, I come out with a simple circuit.

Screenshot's attached.

The green line is the input power, the blue line is the output power, and the red line is the voltage across the capacitor.

In the circuit, I use a normal cap to simulate the cell, I could be wrong here though...

I use 20v battery dc supply voltage as the carrier, as BB says.
I calculate the resonant frequency with typical series LC resonance calculator found on web, as SM proposed.

Input is a sine wave. I don't know how to calculate the power factor for energy calculation, so, hopefully, experts here could help me.

Notice, I use battery as the buffer, to prevent the capacitor voltage from being negative. In other words, electrolysis can't occur if AC supplied.

I'm not a 'pro' with these LTspice thingy... So, hopefully, someone better than me would simulate the circuit with LTspice.

So, did I 'achieved' 'super-electrolyzer'?

lon92

• Newbie
• Posts: 39
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 06:34:59 PM »
Eerr, anyone?

poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 06:43:10 PM »
What would you like to know exactly Ion92?

I have a lot of experience with PSpice. What you have simulated there is not difficult to obtain measurements from. What do you want to measure?

.99

poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 07:24:20 PM »
Your green input power trace can not be correct. Instantaneous power is i x v. You have some voltage at node 0001 x V1 (a voltage x a voltage). I am assuming node 0001 is ground, and therefore your multiplication will be "zero" as a result, and probably why the green trace is at zero for the entire run.

.99

lon92

• Newbie
• Posts: 39
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
Actually, the green line is not at zero, but, too small on the scale...
I forget how much...

What I want to know is, does this cell have a COP of more than 1?
I mean, the cell seems to resonate at fixed frequency, the input power is less than output power.

Also, could electrical resonance, like in the LC circuit, achieve COP>1?

Sorry for my insufficient knowledge, I'm still learning.
Thanks for your patient guiding me...

poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 08:25:19 PM »
Actually, the green line is not at zero, but, too small on the scale...
I forget how much...

What I want to know is, does this cell have a COP of more than 1?
I mean, the cell seems to resonate at fixed frequency, the input power is less than output power.

Also, could electrical resonance, like in the LC circuit, achieve COP>1?

Sorry for my insufficient knowledge, I'm still learning.
Thanks for your patient guiding me...

The first thing to do is to correct your green input power trace; voltage times voltage is not power, and it appears to me that you are multiplying the input voltage times 0.

.99

ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7862
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 09:13:06 PM »
Poynt

Chet

lon92

• Newbie
• Posts: 39
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 11:12:54 AM »
Hi again,
I don't know why, I reconstructed the same circuit today, but, I get a different result.

As before, green trace is the input, the blue trace is the output...
Input refers to power of the sine wave supply, output refers to power across the capacitor...

Thanks again!

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13968
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 04:07:17 PM »
Your power comparisons are colorful but essentially meaningless because you have an oscillating system. Consider one cycle of the output power. It is strongly positive....and then it's strongly negative. How can the power dissipation of a circuit be negative? It just means the sign of the current has changed, not that you are suddenly gaining power from somewhere or cooling the world with your coil.

The proper comparison to make is ENERGY. Input energy compared to output energy over a few cycles of the waveform.

To get energy from power, you need to "integrate" the power traces over a time period. When you do this you will have two "stairstep" looking graphs of Joules versus Time, and you can compare the slopes of these graphs to see if your total output ENERGY is accumulating faster than the total input energy.

poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
Re: LTspice simulation of resonating Hydroxy Generator, am I wrong?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 06:25:45 PM »
Ion92,

Fundamentally, there are a few "problems" with this circuit.

One of the most common errors that is made by unsuspecting folks when simulating electronics, and in particular, inductors and transformers, is the omission of the finite DC resistance associated with all wound components. A related error is assuming that all interconnecting circuit wires are perfect conductors.

SPICE operates like a computer program, and it processes exactly what you give it. No allowances are made behind the scenes for component parasitics; these must be addressed in an appropriate way by the person designing the simulations.

So as a minimum, you need to insert a resistor in series with the AC generator, and one in series with your output circuit.

The 10uF capacitor, which I assume is to represent the electrolyzer cell capacitance between the electrodes, is much too high a value. A more realistic value would probably be on the order of 100pF or so, but this would have to be measured. As well, a water-cell capacitor such as this is much more complicated than a basic capacitor, because there is a resistance associated with the path between the plates. So, there should also be a resistor in parallel with that 100pF capacitor.

As the circuit stands, there is no point in measuring the power in either the AC generator, nor the cell capacitor, because there are no dissipative elements in the circuit. In theory, all of the energy that goes out of the generator, goes back to the generator. See the flaw?

With the resistors added as I suggest, you will have real dissipation and energy "used" in the circuit.

SPICE is a tool, and as I have pointed out, if not used correctly, erroneous values and conclusions may result.

.99