Hi Chris,

Something else to consider is that inside the electrolyte solution there are magnesium and silver colloids that jump between positively charged ions and uncharged colloid particles. There is also potassium salt ions from the potassium hydroxide that carry a positive charge as well as the positive charged zinc ions. All these positively charged particles are attracted to the negative charged zinc electrode during the zinc regenerating process. So I can see in my mind all these ions plating on the zinc electrode during the regenerating process. The thicker the layer, the less and less regenerated zinc is actually being plated on the electrode over time. This hurts the zinc surface area and over time will slow the reaction down until all the zinc plated is no longer in contact with the zinc metal. The result is that the reaction stops.

The short regeneration times prevent this because it allows the zinc to plate only a thin layer, that is worked off over time before the next regeneration period. Always keeping the replated zinc in contact with the metal beneath, and hopefully working off the other positive ions that plate on the electrode as well. That is my hypothesis anyway.

 It could be that the zinc regeneration electrode needs a quick "blast" of positive charge to blow the surface layer negative ions off every so often. Maybe for a few seconds once per day or so; to blow off the magnesium, silver, and potassium ions off the surface and start with a pure zinc coating again?

So I am going to shoot for short regeneration times of only seconds, and a bit longer non-regeneration times.

That's my reasoning anyway.

Thanks everyone for your interest.

Hi Chris,

It will work. I did that same procedure last year and the zinc does plate on the tungsten/carbide rod and it will run the reaction once the zinc is on there. I never went much farther with it because I started getting caught up with building a reactor that didn't leak; but I think you are right.

That may actually be the ideal way. Only a certain amount of zinc would be in the cell and it might run cleaner. Just keep plating the zinc and then running the cell. Two zinc plated rods would probably be ideal. One running the reaction and the other regenerating.

You are right about the copper. I started getting green contamination in the cell as time went on with the copper electrode. That's why I ended that direction of research.

Hey RR,

I have my test cell reconfigured with all tungsten electrodes and am trying to get the zinc to plate on now... will let you know how it turns out... still not seeing any plating after two hours tho...

Chris

Hi Chris,

Now that's odd. I assume all three electrodes in the cell are tungsten.

Question: When you ran this cell, were the only electrodes inside the cell during the reaction tungsten and zinc? Did you have any other electrodes in there like carbon or iron or aluminum?

When you say running the cell, did you mean that only tungsten and zinc ran for a period of a day or a couple of days before you tried the plating experiment?

If so, then insert an aluminum rod, or aluminum foil into the solution and let it sit. If there is any dissolved zinc to plate then it will plate on the aluminum like threads.

PM me or post your answers here. I am just trying to get all the details of what exactly is in the cell and what exactly you did to run it.

Thanks for letting me know. It is probably something simple.

Hi RR2 and all you guys;

Very interesting thread, I’ve read much of it and this is fascinating indeed, using a chemical reaction to produce hydrogen. You’ve really been persistent, ResinRat2 and the others, in doing all these experiments. Wonderful to read about all the teamwork that has been going on for close to 2 years in this thread.

I’ve experimented with making collodial silver the last couple of years, and have spent $6000 on parts and equipment for building a large 20 gallon generator, using two 8”x8” 99.9% pure silver plates in a special acrylic reactor chamber and of course deionized water. I measure the silver concentration using an Ag+ ion-selective electrode. It’s good stuff, and people report about all kinds of interesting stuff happening when ingesting it. After three weeks, one guy with chron’s could finally sleep the whole night without going to the bathroom five times a night. Boy he was happy!

The first requirement in making colloidal silver, or any colloidal, is of course deionized water. Just as important IMO is constant circulation, to disperse the particles and prevent buildup of colloid concentration around the electrodes, to keep the particle size as small as possible.

Making a collodial solution without circulation, in a glass of water, is bound to produce very large particles of silver, thus reducing the reactive area of the silver in the collodial suspension and also reducing the bioavailability of the silver particles to the body. That means that two 10ppm collodial silver suspensions might differ greatly in reactive area, depending on particle size. That goes for colloidal magnesium too, and all colloids. This might affect a lot of things in a chemical reaction, whether in vivo or in vitro.

In addition I personally believe that spiralling the water during the generation process is a must. Water is a living medium, and the water quality and energetic state might be extremely important in all experiments involving water. The difference between dead water that has gone through pipes, and living water, is as big as the difference between life and death, and should affect all chemical reactions involving water.

Also, water is a dipole, as you know, and it sticks together in clusters. Research has been done on restructuring the water into pentagonal and hexagonal structures, and it seems to make a big difference on the body. Restructuring is part of what happens during vortexing, and it apparently changes many of the characteristics of water. I am now building a vortex collodial silver generator, with a vortexer rod spinning in the center of two cylinders of pure silver 5 mm apart, all immersed in deionized water. This is a very interesting invention when it comes to high quality colloidal silver generation, the first of its kind as far as I know.

So apparently the quality of water is important, and water may be the most important ingredient there is in this world. And the structure of water is apparently affecting the quality of water in a great degree. Structure and order is the foundation of all there is.

Also my experiments so far, as well as my studies in medicine and the human system (which is composed mainly of water) has told me that circulation is one of the most critical factors of life. When circulation stops, life stops. Circulation means energy exchange and communication, critical aspects in any reaction.

So I wonder, what benefits might structured water, high quality colloids and circulation have on this hydrogen experiment? You might for instance spin the three tungsten rods, with a little tungsten leaf attached to the bottom end of them, in the water. Then you will get both the vortex effect, regenerating the water as a medium, and you will get circulation.

I mean, if there is a problem with buildup of stuff on electrodes, why not consider the state of the medium of the reaction?

I believe it is not common in chemistry circles to consider the water medium in these ways, but in nature when you get buildup, it is often due to a lack of circulation. Structured water has the ability to keep more stuff in suspension, and might allow for a greater degree of proper regeneration. Also in the body, that happens.

Another reason of buildup in the body, is to protect and shut-off parts of the system from communication with the rest of the body. We see that for instance in calcium encapsulation of ”stuff”. The reason might be faulty communication, and the medium might be the culprit as it is the medium of communication and has the ability to interfere with everything that happens and all signals being sent. Thus a buildup might serve as a protection of the effect of faulty communication, and that created the need for the production of the residue in the first place, so protection could be accomplished. I know this is turning things a little upside-down, but it’s a piece of advice: always also consider things as a whole, not just as singular and isolated parts. What needs do the parts have, and why do they have those needs. It's all about creating an environment where dynamic and balanced interchange might occur.

Anyways, I like the idea of two different colloids reacting, producing some kind of dynamic balance/interchange. That is a good starting point and resonates with the principle of duality and dynamic balance of two opposing poles, another universal principle.

My reasoning here is to give you an idea that when you can’t get clear and definite answers by focusing in on stuff, try letting it go and defocus and consider the universal principles, as they are all eventually replicated down to the smallest level of things. As above, so below. That way you get better communication between the left and right brain, and it might help you solve things.

As for the timer system, you can just use several 555 timers on some veroboard, and then you can control delay, duty-cycle and so on with a few pots. They are very cheap and require very few external components to run, and they can drive regular 12V relays, and you might not even need that.

Also with a 555 timer you can generate a square-wave DC pulse to feed the electrodes. That is used for regenerating lead-acid batteries, and that works wonders on them, reducing buildup of stuff on the electrodes.

And when you are working with water, why not set it all up as an orgone accumulator?

I’m serious! Why not combine all these ideas, vortex generation, circulation, frequencies and orgone accumulation? LOL..... I mean, they are all used in the human body, the greatest innovation in the universe. We’ve got a couple of things to learn just from studying how we ourselves are constructed

Anyway, you’ve got my interest – I’m going to get some tungsten rods and start experimenting on this, while working on my Bob Boyce hydrogen generator and various other generators..... guys – I believe this is a very interesting research field and a lot of fascinating discoveries are waiting just to be made!

Have a nice day, all!

Hi.  The notion that water molecules 'clump', hence the need for mixing, reminded me of an article I read on the transformation that occured in water that was subjected to the 'sun sounds' - basically NASA/ESA recordings of sun noise. An example: http://soi.stanford.edu/results/one_mode_l_1_2.au

Below is an image of water that was flash-frozen while being subjected to the sound.

OK, it looks like I've settled on short regeneration times with on and off phases and jumping between two zinc electrodes for regeneration. I will be using Tacmatricx's configuration, but with two zinc electrodes.

I am finishing putting the large reactor together and fine tuning the regeneration timer. I should have my two-quart-sized-glass-jar-unit running by the end of this coming week.

It has been a LONG time coming but I think I have worked out most of the bugs.

Thanks for your interest.

OK, a few conclusions I have come to based off the work I have been doing on this project so far.

1) The advantage of Dr. Griffin's system is that it is spontaneous when using the sacrificial metal for the production of hydrogen. This metal can be regenerated at low voltage, but it is a bit tricky when trying to prevent the formation of zincates that eventually kill the reaction. This is minimized by regenerating only thin layers of zinc at a time, and then burning them off in the hydrogen producing reaction. Over long term, the zinc will eventually become zincated and the reaction will stop. So the zinc rod will eventually need to be replaced.

2) The reaction is naturally endothermic, and will draw energy from the environment by absorbing the heat differential from around the reactor. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a large heat/energy draw. It would almost need a solar/heat concentrator around the unit to get the full advantage of the effect. In this case, it operates best when the sun shines.

3) If the use of strong acid or base could be eliminated, and the regeneration cycle could be eliminated, then some type of self-sustaining reaction might be developed.

4) Dr. Griffin is so far ahead of any work that I am doing that it is a waste of time for me to continue rediscovering his work. I need to research in a different direction.

Along these lines I stopped trying to find the ideal cycle/voltage needed for the zinc regeneration and wanted to try to develop a longer term operating unit that could use a solar/heat concentrator for self-sustaining operation. I dumped the zinc rods and replaced all electrodes with tungsten/carbide or thoriated tungsten rods. Since there was no zinc regeneration I eliminated the magnesium colloid and replaced it with double the silver colloid concentration. This would take advantage of Dr. Griffin's work that uses the high concentration of colloid to drive the reaction with lower energy requirements. I also replaced the caustic potassium hydroxide solution with sodium bicarbonate. The idea here was to try and take advantage of some earlier work that showed evidence of extra heat production when using sodium carbonate (which is very similar in structure to sodium bicarbonate) for low temperature fusion experiments.

I did several experiments and found that a very large heat differential could be developed using the sodium bicarbonate and silver colloid mixture powered by low voltage to produce hydrogen/oxygen. As a result, I will be starting a new thread that will post results along these research lines. My goal is to build a unit that will produce hydrogen that could be run through a fuel cell and self sustain the reaction as long as solar energy/heat are concentrated on the unit. It will run cold and use no caustic/acid for the electrolyte.

So, for now, I am stopping work on this thread. I think it is better if we wait for Dr. Griffin to finally give the world his technology, and not waste time doing double work on this project.

Thanks everyone for your support over the last couple of years. I just think we really need to start getting some viable technology out into the general population to start eliminating our dependency on oil. I am just not going to make that happen by what I am doing right now.