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Author Topic: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !  (Read 375805 times)

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1200 on: August 27, 2008, 08:43:47 PM »
Hi Chris and Mark,

Just FYI along these lines.

The test cell I had built to mimick your setup never achieved a state of being endothermic. Every measurement I made with a digital thermometer indicated that the test cell was always running approximately ONE degree (F) above room temperature. These were side by side direct measurements in my temperature and humidity controlled basement.

This disappointed me a bit because I expected that once the zinc was being regenerated that the temperature of the electrolyte solution would drop below room temperature. This never happened.

So my previous hypothesis that the system runs endothermic was incorrect. At least with this three electrode set up.

The old four-electrode setup may act differently. It may be endothermic, but I never took the opportunity to carefully measure that property. This is something I planned on doing with the 2 liter reactor.

Thanks for your interest,

Dave(RR2)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 09:13:40 PM by ResinRat2 »

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Offline Tacmatricx

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Re: Linnard´s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1201 on: August 27, 2008, 09:27:31 PM »
Hi Dave,

My setup is also in a basment and the temperature is always 26 Degrees C. I was unable to replicate your exothermic test? My test read identical using a digital thermometer over a few days of usage?

I'm building yet another cell bringing me to two three electrode cells and one four electrode cell to test a few other ideas while leaving the other two running.

The Tablespoon cell is still ticking with no visible changes.

Chris

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1202 on: August 28, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
Hi Chris,

I was going to put a resistor between the zinc and the tungsten-carbide hydrogen producing electrode like you did, but I was thinking of using a smaller resistor so the hydrogen gas can be produced as fast as possible without the zinc being allowed to plate. You said you are using a 2.5Ohm resistor; do you think a smaller one would work better? What about a variable resistor there instead so it could be fine-tuned?

I really like your idea. Can you recommend some part that would fit the bill?

Thanks,

Dave (RR2)

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1202 on: August 28, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
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Offline Tacmatricx

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1203 on: August 28, 2008, 07:46:59 PM »
Hi Dave,

I saw a buildup of particles in the bottom of the tablespoon reactor and in placing the third cell into the setup caused the voltage to drop in the tablespoon reactor. This caused the entire plated surface to sheer off and short all three cells.

I shook the crap out of the cell causing all the shearing to break up in the bottom of the cell and put it back into production without opening the cell or making any changes with the hopes of recovering it. I have the third cell designed to test an idea to prevent any buildup at the base of the cell.

As for the resistance... both the tungsten and zinc electrodes have and end to end resistance of 0.003 Ohms in my setup. By adding a 2.5 Ohm resistance I am making the plating on the zinc 834.3% more preferable to plating on the tungsten while still allowing the generation to continue. I wanted to test this with this higher resistance as I mentioned earlier in this thread that shorting out a chemical car battery causes degradation leading to total breakdown in the cell. This may be similar in electrochemistry to a lead acid cell and I wanted to try to introduce a load to prevent zincate buildups while allowing us to increase the voltage over the 0.9V limit.

A smaller resistance would be preferable and I want to get to that stage once I have tested this way... less chance of damaging the cell at least...

Chris

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1204 on: August 28, 2008, 09:34:40 PM »
I do have a small variable resistor that I found in my spare parts. I don't know what size it is but I could give it a try and see if I can play with the hydrogen output. This would probably work OK for what I am trying to test for.

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1204 on: August 28, 2008, 09:34:40 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1205 on: August 30, 2008, 01:40:01 AM »
Hi Chris and Mark,

Just FYI along these lines.

The test cell I had built to mimick your setup never achieved a state of being endothermic. Every measurement I made with a digital thermometer indicated that the test cell was always running approximately ONE degree (F) above room temperature. These were side by side direct measurements in my temperature and humidity controlled basement.

This disappointed me a bit because I expected that once the zinc was being regenerated that the temperature of the electrolyte solution would drop below room temperature. This never happened.


Dave(RR2)

ResinRat2;
and
TacMatricx

Yes, RR, Thanks, I acknowledge what you said, just doing some verification.

In college chemistry we learned that all reactions have an energy balance. Either the chemical
reactants provided chemical potential energy, which when they ran out stopped the reaction or
energy was provided externally, like by electrical current, in either case the reaction would also
stop if reaction byproducts (exhausts) built up in the solution. Just like a Perpetual motion
machine that will break down or wear out, side reactions from contamination can be expected
to build up in the Linnard system.  What is suprising is that the two reaction products have a
rather large combustion energy between them and also an ignition energy between them and
that means they are a fuel and oxidizer pair.

Catalysts lower the reaction energy barrier between reactants but do not supply
the chemical potential energy to make the reaction proceed. So where does
the extra energy of this reaction come from?  Endothermicity was the last hope
of explaining the reaction in usual terms. That leaves us with an explanation of
an "exotic" energy source powering this reaction.

While the endothermic explanation would be more theoretically satisfying. An
exotic energy explainantion would make the the reaction much more valuable,
much more ZPE like and a much better potential as an energy supply competitor
to conventional systems. Of course if is it getting it's reaction energy somehow
from a more mundane source it's value drops significantly, even though it might
still have some valuable to someone maybe trying to reform something like coal
slurry to hydrogen + CO2 or something. So I doubt that it has no value and it
appears as it has significant value.

---

I as you, am not too exited by the prospect of having armatures or hobbyist trying
to store large amounts of hydrogen, even though I would be willing to purchase
a commercial hydrogen storage subsystem - hopefully fully debugged. I am
equally non-exicted by the concept of burning hydrogen gas in an ICE internal
combustion engine. So I am generally awaiting the automotive mass production
of hydrogen fuel cells to bring the price down and eliminate the need to store
hydrogen. Once this happens, I assume these HHO production systems are
really going to take off. As I have said in another post 16KW vehicle fuel cells
are ten times bigger than the 1.5KW continuous part of the demand for electrical
energy that the average home consumes. (excluding variable heating energy).

So I am continuing to be interested in what you and others are finding with this
Linnard (like) system. And I am definitely hoping for it's success. Good work
so far!


:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1206 on: August 30, 2008, 02:57:00 AM »
Hi Mark,

I agree, the endothermic possibility of this system is what appealed to me and it gave a conventional explanation for the source of the system's energy. I guess I am not like the majority of the researchers on this site who have the hope of tapping ZPE. I don't think it plays any role in Linnard's system. I just think this system is an overall conventional reaction that is complex because of the high concentration of reactants due to the use of colloidal minerals. That's all.

I saw evidence of the endothermic nature of the reaction by feeling the coldness of the electrodes during the reaction, and also the coldness of the electrolyte solution when the hydrogen production was speeded up using a battery. The temperature of the solution dropped, but I never actually measured it. Then I was disappointed by the finding (not duplicated by Chris' testing) that the solution did have a higher temperature (about one degree F) than room temperature.

After thinking about this for a while I have come to a hypothesis that perhaps the electrolyte solution is warmed slightly, but that the endothermic nature of the reaction shows up in the physical coldness of the electrodes. This means that the electrodes are the actual physical material that absorbs the energy from the atmosphere around the reaction vessel, and transfers that energy into the reaction. That would explain what is happening. I just don't know how to test this. I think if I put a temperature probe against the parts of the electrodes that are sticking outside of the reaction vessel and it shows a temperature colder than air temperature, then this would be evidence that this is what is happening.

Just ideas that are running through my head. I still need to find a reliable way to test this.

Thanks for your input.

Dave(RR2)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1206 on: August 30, 2008, 02:57:00 AM »
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Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1207 on: August 31, 2008, 03:16:52 AM »
Hi Chris,

I was examining the electrodes from this latest experiment and noticed that the tungsten-carbide electrode had zinc plated on it, so the voltage above 0.9 volts appears to be a no-no for regeneration, unless some type of resistor is put between the tungsten carbide and zinc rods. The thing that surprised me was that the tungsten rod used for regenerating the zinc also had zinc plated on it. Could there have been a back voltage that pushed the zinc back toward the regenerating tungsten rod. Apparently so.

So, I will start a fresh cell with a variable resistor between the zinc and tungsten carbide electrode and use 0.90 volts as a setpoint for regeneration and study the long term effects there. I really want to see the oxygen come freely off the zinc rod.

This is very interesting. I can't help but anticipate that there is an "ideal" voltage setting that will accomplish the regeneration of the zinc and not on the tungsten carbide electrode.

Offline Davetech

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1208 on: September 01, 2008, 05:12:15 PM »
Hi Dave,
Regarding the measurement of the electrode temperature... I am presently experimenting with different designs of solar water and air heaters and have been eyeballing the new non-contact infra red thermometers that are offered all over eBay. I think one of these would help me spot changes of efficiency in my designs. I don't have one yet, so I have not been able to confirm this but... since it works with an infra red laser, I wonder if it couldn't shine the laser right through the electrolyte and get a reading off the submerged electrode? 

The units on eBay claim an accuracy of about plus or minus 2 degrees centigrade, so they are not exactly lab quality, but still you might be able to get useful data.

I haven't thrown my 2 cents in here for a long time, but I read nearly every day. IMO of all the different project threads presented on this whole forum, I think this thread holds the most promise for a true breakthrough toward releasing us from the grip of the energy giants. Like you, I don't put much stock in the ZPE. I also don't envision running a conventional ICE off of the output (although I do hope engines specifically designed to use HHO will be developed.) My excitement is more geared toward scaling the cell up, way up, and using the output to power a stationary power plant for an off grid home.

Even if it turns out that it is easier to just replace the zinc electrode now and then, hell, zinc is cheap and plentiful. A whole lot cheaper than black gold!

While I'm spouting my opinion, I think that the output from this cell may the closest thing to "free energy" we'll see unless someone manages to contain fusion... lol.  Anyway, my hat is off to you, Dave, for your dogged perseverance and determination.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1208 on: September 01, 2008, 05:12:15 PM »
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Offline Peterae

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1209 on: September 01, 2008, 05:19:43 PM »
Hi Davetech
I have one of these thermometers, the better one to buy has 2 lasers that cross to give you the optimun distance for measurement, in my instructions it says it will not penetrate glass but instead read the surface of the glass temperature.

Hope that helps

Peter

Offline Davetech

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1210 on: September 01, 2008, 05:23:02 PM »
Opps... oh well.  As RR2 would say "Now I know another way not to measure the temperature of a submerged electrode!"

Thanks Peter.

Perhaps one of those indoor/outdoor thermometers with the external wired sensor? The sensor could have a glob of silicone heat sink grease between it and the electrode and then a piece of heat shrink tubing shrunk around it?

« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 05:54:13 PM by Davetech »

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1210 on: September 01, 2008, 05:23:02 PM »
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Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1211 on: September 02, 2008, 04:24:02 AM »
LOL, thanks for trying anyway DaveTech,

It's really Tacmatricx (Chris) who has given a new direction to follow right now. I set up a cell based off his research. It has the three electrodes with variable resistors between the zinc regeneration electrodes and the hydrogen producing electrodes. If this research cell works out it could signal an important finding.

Below are a few pics.

My regeneration voltage is set at 0.95 volts right now, and the voltage flowing between the zinc and hydrogen producing tungsten/carbide electrode is lowered to 0.310Volts through the variable resistor. Hopefully this will prevent zinc from plating on the tungsten carbide electrode.

I have my fingers crossed. I hope this works.




Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1212 on: September 04, 2008, 01:38:57 PM »
Just an update:

The reactor has been running about two days now, at 0.95 V regeneration and about 0.280 V between the zinc and hydrogen producing electrodes. I noticed a zinc plating was starting to form on the tungsten/carbide electrode and it almost looked like tungsten was plating on the zinc electrode. This tells me that the voltage is too high for regeneration, so I disconnected the connections, shook off the zinc electrode to get the tungsten "threads" off, and let the hydrogen producing electrode and zinc electrode run connected together for about an hour. This allowed all the platings to be removed, then I set the connections back together and dropped the regeneration voltage to 0.9 V.

The hydrogen gas is barely coming off now, and this is making me think that this may not work as well as I thought. The resistor between the zinc and hydrogen producing electrodes is really slowing the hydrogen production down. I don't want to bump up the regeneration voltage because of the plating on the zinc. I don't want to let the gas hydrogen gas come off faster either because of my concern that zinc will plate on the tungsten carbide electrode.

I was wondering how your experiments are going Chris. Are you seeing similar results to mine? Just curious.

I am going to try a few other ideas on this too.

Thanks for your interest.

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1213 on: September 05, 2008, 03:27:43 PM »
Hi Everyone,

Dr.Griffin sent me this picture of a micro-reactor he built. If you look closely at the picture you can see the gas pouring off the electrode. He just wanted to show some of his progress.

Thanks for your interest.

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Linnard?s hydrogen on demand system without electricity !
« Reply #1214 on: September 07, 2008, 04:19:21 PM »
Hi Chris,

Just an update on my research.

At this point in time I am trying a regeneration - then non-regeneration setup. I am using your setup with one zinc electrode but I removed the resistor between the hydrogen producing electrode and the zinc electrode. The gas is coming off at a good rate now, and I am regenerating the zinc on and off every eight hours. This way only a thin layer is being regenerated and then worked off. It also seems to be preventing the plating from the zinc onto the T/C electrode.

I have settled on 0.9 volts for regeration. I am going to let this configuration proceed and record any observations I see.

Also, someone mentioned to me that a configuration could be designed to use the pressure that is produced from the hydrogen gas to operate a small pressure-switch to do any electrode connection switching or turning the regeneration on and off. This is certainly free energy because the gas can be used to produce electricity after it is recovered from the switching. It could even be used on the previous four-electrode design for switching if we need to go back to it.

This system is looking more and more favorable for achieving overunity.

Thanks for your interest.

Dave (RR2)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:19:17 PM by ResinRat2 »

 

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