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### Author Topic: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...  (Read 251411 times)

#### spinner

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 410
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #180 on: August 14, 2008, 03:15:13 PM »
Totally Bullshit, sorry,
More paddles == better - 4 feet == better,  2 brains == better, 2 broken legs == better

Well, you have a right to your own opinion.
I think your " this is bullshit" comment is directed towards my evaluation of the setup paddle wheel efficiency and not to my fair questions directed to the inventor?

Quote
This is no normal turbine. I set up a formula for the ideal amount of paddles. (see attachement)

Yes, this is not a normal turbine, it is a very inefficient one. Inventor is aware of this fact.
Btw, your formula is far from reality (it uses a geometrical approach without any usefull connections with real turbines).

The number of "paddles" in a "real turbine" is determined by the long series of calculations considering tens of parameters like head/water jet velocity/pressure/air flow, expected power/torque/operating rpm,  complete geometry (of inlets, nozzle(s), paddles,..), turbine dimensions -diameter, subtype of turbine, etc, etc... One of the main factors is (>100years known fact) that the distance between paddles is usually less than a 'diameter' of a single paddle. (The transfer of energy should be as smooth as possible, so in any time there's at least 2 of the paddles hit with the water stream...)
And a diameter of the paddle "cup" is at least 2,5x bigger than a diameter of a jet stream... More than a century of turbine development and millions of engineer hours went into what we know about turbines today... That's why I said "no need to invent a hot water again"...

I hope you'd agree that a right choice  for an application "described" in this thread is a Pelton type turbine, which is an impulse driven machine, meaning the water stream kinetic energy is transferred to a turbine torque by "chopping" an incoming water jet in as small as possible "quanta" carrying motional energy. Newtonian physic, force parallelograms,  fluid dynamics and more than a century of a "real life" experience..

Quote
Feel free to layout your exact derived efficiency calculation.

Lol, i get "my truth" out of already existing knowledge. I'd suggest you try it, too. It won't hurt, I promise.
After understanding the turbines, you may remove your "bullshit" post about "less&bigger paddles is better". Sorry, no offence!

And, about efficiency "calcs" - I said it's my own evaluation, based on following:

Take "A state of the art Pelton turbine". (It has >90% kinetics exchange (overall) efficiency).

Of all variables, change just the geometry (use a flat paddles instead of Pelton "cups"). In practice, this reduces the efficiency by some 50%... (check out the "Pelton-cups" physics, an U-turn kinetics, a "conservation of mass" principle with the water stream velocity vectors...)

Now, remove 80 % of the paddles (that would be close to a paddle wheel discussed here), or a case calculated by Fritz...

So, 0,9*0,5*0,3= 0,13 %...

Of course, there's a bunch of equations for calculating Pelton efficiency, too, but they all need a "real case" with as much as known data possible...
Which is not what we have at the moment, right?

I'll say again - the "poor paddle wheel" is certainly not a "cause of OU", claimed by the inventor. I'm sure of that. So, what's the truth?

Btw Fritz, I might talk "bullshit".... Only Time will tell...
Cheers!

#### spinner

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 410
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #181 on: August 14, 2008, 03:41:56 PM »
....This is my 2 cents although no one asked me. (They rarely do these days)

Quote
First, welcome James.  I applaud and appreciate your efforts as well as the fact you are sharing them with us.  I have read through the posts and I know the inefficiency of the paddle wheel has been discussed.  My original thought when I first saw your first video was why you didn't use an enclosed impeller system to capture all of the water energy that you have "paid" for?  Something like a small version of a jet ski drive or a small turbocharger connected with an input pipe.

Pirate, I don't think an "enclosed impeller system" would be beneficial. After all, a Pelton is quite different than water jet pump. With Pelton, a trapped/(dead) water would cause additional losses.

Quote
Every drop of water that does not contact a paddle is wasted energy that has already been paid for with power.

EXACTLY! This is a summary related to a question discussing a necessary number of "paddles" (water wheels, turbines,..).

Quote
I have no idea why this works as you now have it.  It shouldn't.  I can clearly see that you went to a lot of trouble to build this device, much more trouble than anyone would just to post a fake youtube video, so I have ruled that out.  As others have also mentioned, I wonder if the caps (are they super capacitors?) are acting like batteries?  If so, the device would not self run very long.  Possibly there is something else going on that has been overlooked by us?  By this I mean something inherent in the diameters of your pulleys, the load on the generator, and the volume of the pump possibly hitting a resonance "sweet spot"?  I will continue to follow your efforts and hope that you continue to share your results with us.  Best of luck to you.  This is fascinating.
....
Bill

Ok, there may be something strange happening.... Let's see what future will reveal. And I hope inventor will tell at least some things about...

My thoughts are ... Ah, never mind.
Cheers!

#### fritz

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 424
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #182 on: August 14, 2008, 04:01:33 PM »
Well, you have a right to your own opinion.
I think your " this is bullshit" comment is directed towards my evaluation of the setup paddle wheel efficiency and not to my fair questions directed to the inventor?

yes.

Yes, this is not a normal turbine, it is a very inefficient one. Inventor is aware of this fact.
Btw, your formula is far from reality (it uses a geometrical approach without any usefull connections with real turbines).

If this would be a nominal setup - I would agree with you -
I just think that the "innefficient" setup plays some role in the
overall effect. This is the reason why I think that normal engineering
principles might be not sufficient to explain what happens.
Because lots of people here throw around with quite
non-orthodox theories what concerns electrical engineering -
I think even mechanical or hydrodynamic setups might show
non-conventional effects.

The number of "paddles" in a "real turbine" is determined by the long series of calculations considering tens of parameters like head/water jet velocity/pressure/air flow, expected power/torque/operating rpm,  complete geometry (of inlets, nozzle(s), paddles,..), turbine dimensions -diameter, subtype of turbine, etc, etc... One of the main factors is (>100years known fact) that the distance between paddles is usually less than a 'diameter' of a single paddle. (The transfer of energy should be as smooth as possible, so in any time there's at least 2 of the paddles hit with the water stream...)
And a diameter of the paddle "cup" is at least 2,5x bigger than a diameter of a jet stream... More than a century of turbine development and millions of engineer hours went into what we know about turbines today... That's why I said "no need to invent a hot water again"...

and thats exact the point.

(The transfer of energy should be as smooth as possible, so in any time there's at least 2 of the paddles hit with the water stream...)

I expect that the oscillating energy in this "inefficient" setup interacts with the
pump which adds extra energy due to high energy water bursts.
(the inertia of the wheel is quite low - and by using a belt in the transmission -
the wheel may experience oscillating torque)
If this plays a role in the effect - the design principles you  mention above have
nothing todo with the efficiency of the device - the opposite will be the case -
and it would work like an ordinary "inefficient" setup.

This is why I calulated the minimum geometrical amount of paddles for
maximum oscillation.

I hope you'd agree that a right choice  for an application "described" in this thread is a Pelton type turbine, which is an impulse driven machine, meaning the water stream kinetic energy is transferred to a turbine torque by "chopping" an incoming water jet in as small as possible "quanta" carrying motional energy. Newtonian physic, force parallelograms,  fluid dynamics and more than a century of a "real life" experience..

yes, but I think we need other design principles here as suggested above.

Lol, i get "my truth" out of already existing knowledge. I'd suggest you try it, too. It won't hurt, I promise.
After understanding the turbines, you may remove your "bullshit" post about "less&bigger paddles is better". Sorry, no offence!

I?m very sorry about that "bullshit" - statement - but I somehow got
offended that everyone is claiming "inefficient" - but doesn?t lay out any
arguments.

And, about efficiency "calcs" - I said it's my own evaluation, based on following:
Take "A state of the art Pelton turbine". (It has >90% kinetics exchange (overall) efficiency).
Of all variables, change just the geometry (use a flat paddles instead of Pelton "cups"). In practice, this reduces the efficiency by some 50%... (check out the "Pelton-cups" physics, an U-turn kinetics, a "conservation of mass" principle with the water stream velocity vectors...)

no problem with that.

Now, remove 80 % of the paddles (that would be close to a paddle wheel discussed here), or a case calculated by Fritz...

So, 0,9*0,5*0,3= 0,13 %...

Of course, there's a bunch of equations for calculating Pelton efficiency, too, but they all need a "real case" with as much as known data possible...
Which is not what we have at the moment, right?

I'll say again - the "poor paddle wheel" is certainly not a "cause of OU", claimed by the inventor. I'm sure of that. So, what's the truth?

I?m not that sure what concerns the role of the paddlewheel here.

Btw Fritz, I might talk "bullshit".... Only Time will tell...

Lets see - if this is another "magic generator" setup - what I don?t think because there
looks to be serious people involved - than the OU has to happen somewhere else.

If there is an oscillation water stream - the construction principles for
a pelton turbine are completly wrong here.

sorry for the "bullshit" - maybe I wanted to provoke a more detailed discussion.

rgds.

#### fritz

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 424
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #183 on: August 14, 2008, 04:05:05 PM »
If you look at the first video - the water flow is not steady
at all - looks to be very turbulent.

Thats why Im "ON" this ideas.

#### spinner

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 410
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #184 on: August 14, 2008, 04:20:43 PM »
Hi Fritz!
I know (and have noticed in the past) that you're one of the clever "tinkerers" around here, that's why I reacted on your "bullshit" post.... (I admit I was a little insulted, because you're one of those which opinion I respect...)

I understand your reasoning, still, I'm very skeptical about the truth behind this setup.
Maybe it's because I've seen too many similar claims (without a definite proof) in the past years?

OK, let's give the inventor a chance to produce or show us something, and let's all hope for the best!
See you!

#### JDHardy54

• Newbie
• Posts: 36
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #185 on: August 14, 2008, 10:25:29 PM »

James

#### Omega_0

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 437
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #186 on: August 14, 2008, 10:53:12 PM »

I finally, after numerous trys,  had the wheel spinning on its own.

James

Ok that should make everyone stand up from their chairs
Can you tell us what was the setup and where is this wheel now ?
(I hope you did not trash it just like all other PM inventors in past)

#### khabe

• Hero Member
• Posts: 525
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2008, 11:15:13 PM »

Yeah ....
Wonder that someone has found out how to "after numerous trys,  had the wheel spinning on its own" ... and ... ohh, let it be - this is just an old story.
Just throwed away a certain \$1M ... doit
And water-powerhouse story becomes more and more complicated, dissimilar to first messages you left.
It does not matter of course,
It changes nothing
Weekend approaches from leeward with cosmic speed
so long,
khabe

#### spinner

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 410
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #188 on: August 15, 2008, 08:05:45 AM »
JDHardy wrote:
Quote
...I went through so many different angles on the magnets to try and make the wheel spin using a large magnet to bounce off the hamster wheel.  I finally, after numerous trys,  had the wheel spinning on its own.  But this is just an old story.  A lot has happened since then...

?!?!?!?
Hmm, such statements are certainly not helping with your credibility....

Ok that should make everyone stand up from their chairs
Can you tell us what was the setup and where is this wheel now ?
(I hope you did not trash it just like all other PM inventors in past)

#### Omega_0

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 437
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #189 on: August 15, 2008, 02:46:35 PM »
Guys, does he sound too much like Quinn

Its been a month now, and he could not produce a clean video.

I'm not having high hopes at all.
Its sad to see FE field corrupted to such an extent.

#### JDHardy54

• Newbie
• Posts: 36
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #190 on: August 15, 2008, 05:26:33 PM »
Spinner and Omega_O,

I probably should have never brought up things I have done in the past.  It is true that I made a magnet wheel ten or twelve years ago.  Sorry you don't believe in me but I did it.  I have no reason to make up stories on this website.  Making the new video, I have truly been having problems and it takes time to solve problems when changes are made.  It seems like so many people doubt my credibility because things I do are hard to believe and are against convention beliefs.  But everything I say is the truth and I'm getting tired of having to give explanations to people on this website.  As I explained in earlier comments, there are a lot more people working on this than me.  I was warned not to go on this type of website because of skeptics and nonbelievers.  Most of the people pick on anything they can find.  I still would like to thank people for all the good comments but I'm really thinking of cancelling my membership on this website.  The machine will be getting documented as soon as possible.  Likewise, the new video will be out as soon as possible.  But I'm finished for now on this website.  I will not be back to reply on any comments until the documentation is complete and the video is finished.  Good luck all.

James

#### Omega_0

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 437
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #191 on: August 15, 2008, 06:08:09 PM »

I probably should have never brought up things I have done in the past.  It is true that I made a magnet wheel ten or twelve years ago.  Sorry you don't believe in me but I did it.

Ya, you should have kept quiet. Too late.
The obvious question to ask is, if you had an OU machine decades ago, what caused you to withhold it from everyone and build this water pump thing instead ?

A working magnet wheel is far superior than this water wheel. You could have changed the world and we would have worshiped you as GOD .... is that not enough for motivation ? LOL

Well like others you are running away with tail between your legs, when confronted with questions. This is enough to show what you are.
Ya, never ever come to this site, you should join a cult site, not a site where people can think and demand evidence.

Well, guys, the bottom line is, he will never deliver and he will keep it delaying until he has sufficient \$\$\$ in his pocket, after that we will never see him.

#### weri812

• TPU-Elite
• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #192 on: August 15, 2008, 10:56:35 PM »
OK GUYS

leave the man alone.  Give him time to get the work done.  When you work all week and the only time to work on the project is weekends  it takes time. So far James has done nothing wrong  just because he did not answer your questions  like you want  does not make him a fake.   BACK OFF  give the man some time.

GOD BLESS to all

wer

#### fritz

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 424
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #193 on: August 16, 2008, 12:32:19 AM »
@spinner

The ones I know are of the extreme heavy style with
huge mass huge inertia _AND_ they are almost directly
coupled to _heavy_ generators.
This is the reason why any oscillation of torque is
absolutely wasted energy. It sucks the power back
from the inertia of the system _wasted_.

What we have here is a super-lightweigth (compared to
the other elements, involved kinetic energy) wheel with
almost no inertia tribute to the system.
Because it is coupled with a belt to the generator - which
is capable of storing lots of inertia(the gen) - if I see the pretty long
acceleration phase - and the long rundown time.
The relatively elastic belt can store / release the input
energy in a way that the resulting efficiency is still high.

JD meant that the pulley drive is some feature which
had a high tribute to the performance of the system.
This is the reason why I still claim - that under this
circumstances - even such "infficient" "looking" stuff
can gain high efficiency. (as long as the involved components
match)

If you look at the internas of the pump  and notice the
almost _ instantly on_ behaviour (on the testrun) - as well
as the same on unplugging the pump (at the end of the video)
there is pretty no inertia with the pump.
The powerconsumption/efficiency of the pump depends on
the rpm/vs flow. This relation is negative as you see in the datasheet.
rpm constant, high flow, high load, rpm constant, low flow (height to lift),
low power consumption.

If the voltage of the generator would drop slightly, the rpms of the pump
would go down immediatly (no inertia) - the rpm/vs flow would change
in the direction of more efficiency, higher load (from pump view) and would
finally give more ouput. In this case the pump has some effect we would
call negative resistance in EE. BTW, more energy is sucked from the
generator witch is immediatly feed by the belt and the pulley with
some energy back.
In the video the speed locks quite stable for some time - but if the efficiency
is higher than you expect - this system can have a very long rundown
time.

rgds.

#### weri812

• TPU-Elite
• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #194 on: August 16, 2008, 03:33:25 AM »
Hello Ffritz

Your seeing in the right direction. The jerking of the  spoons add to the rotation with stored energy in the mowing water.
The sam applies to a steady pull on a  chain  runs for ever( till it breaks)    But if you  jerk the chain as it pulls  then it will  pull harder  but the energy that is  thansferd to the chain will cause the chain to break prematurly.
The Chas Campbell Flywheel Generator also used jerking  belts on his flywheels to help deliver the extria energy  needed for his system to work.

Ok group  open mind  think out side the box.