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Author Topic: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...  (Read 231567 times)

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2008, 01:21:47 PM »
Few simple observations:

When Pump is switched  on (uses external power) - water starts to flow, waterwheel and Generator start to spin up but - why we do not see  the Lamp
need to glow at first and then successively lighter and lighter up to normal light ???
It does not - next point we can see - it just lighting.   OK - let it be  :-\

What is RPM of waterwheel? Then what is RPM of Generator - everyone has own opinion but lets agree it is 1000 RPM (for example).
Do you see adequate fluctuation of RPM when reswitching happend (sleight of hand) - adequate to load what is climbing up 6...16 times at least.

Generator speed 1000 RPM loaded with  Lamp 60W  -
How many wats uses Pump? 300W or 900W ???
When 300W then after reswitching -> load of Generator is 360W -  we need 6 times more torque to keep the RPM as same (1000 RPM)
When 900W then after tricks with wires  output of Generator need to be 960W - we need 16 times more torque for keeping RPM on the same level (1000 RPM)

Where is Voltage Regulator ??? This regulator must to be able to keep Voltage on the same level when load is 60W->360W or even 60W-960W,
Where is RPM regulator? :o What kind miracle keeps RPM  on the same level  when needed torque increase 6 or 16 times?

When no voltage regulator - then output Voltage of generator  differs 6 (or 16) times when pump added as load to generator output,
When voltage regulator exists - then needed torque must to change 6 (0r 16) times - what the hell provides this ???
or RPM must to be change (diminish) 6 (or 16) times when torque of Waterwheel is constant.

At that frequency!
Performance of this Pump is very-very dependenced about frequency - its calculated/designed for 60(50) Hz  >:(

regards,
khabe

PS:
*All those "6....16 times"  are just simplified usage - in reality different losses align with game as well

*When gas-engine driven the same generator then torque and RPM regulated via throttle  ;D



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Offline Vortex1

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2008, 02:54:39 PM »
Khabe

Quote
When Pump is switched  on (uses external power) - water starts to flow, waterwheel and Generator start to spin up but - why we do not see  the Lamp
need to glow at first and then successively lighter and lighter up to normal light Huh
It does not - next point we can see - it just lighting.   OK - let it be  Undecided

I am in no way trying to defend the operation of the Hardy device as real, however some of these effects can be explained e.g. The output of the generator is feeding a small relay that does not pickup until critical velocity is reached. This will keep the generator unloaded until the resonance band is attained.

The resonance band may be adjusted to provide some degree of self regulation e.g as used in ferroresonant transformers, where capacitors tuned with an extra winding provide regulation.

I believe the pump was found to be a T10000. The data sheet is attached.

Note that the current reduces with increased head pressure. This is itself a form of inverse feedback. It is not possible to know what his head pressure is without a current measurement of the pump in action, since I cannot make a good guess from the tubing size and restriction effect of the flow. James Hardy has published no technical data on this or the modifications to his generator.

It is possible that no single part is responsible for OU action, the system must be modeled as a closed resonant loop, with phase leads and lags and resonance band accounted for.

Just a guess, surely lacking information.

In my opinion it is OK to disbelieve and it should not draw insults, better to draw possible explanations.

Kind regards.....V
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 03:26:46 PM by Vortex1 »

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2008, 04:16:16 PM »
Yeah, I know well how wound field generator voltage could be regulated - I waited answere from Inventor or from believers  ;)
But even then you can not keep RPM as stabil as seen on the Video - needed torque grows up 16 times when Gen loeaded 16 times higher.
I have special test stand for generators, I have messed with generators years, I do read all parameters included using torque.
You can use what ever wonder regulator - no way to escape from adding traction power when RPM need to be constant.
At that even smallest deflection of voltage - Pump will be detect it instantly - glitch/failure - downtrend voltage, even pulsed ... not correct frequency ...this is not DC playground !!!
OK - AC you can stabilze as well - have you seen 1kw AC stabilizers? I do, but dont see it on the Video. No stabilizers, no compensators.
Audible clink-clang by every turn of big wheel ... belt transmission  was 1 : 4.5 - then generator spins appr 1000 rpm - mostly those need appr. 3600 RPM (when Gas engine) to have 60Hz.
Someone has at least smallest idea what is output  frequency ??? Surely not 60Hz!  Perhaps somewhere hidden AC-AC converter ? Or this "modern" generator was designed for oldtimer-style engine what uses used oil as fuel  :o

Regards,
khabe




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2008, 04:16:16 PM »
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Offline Vortex1

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2008, 05:45:04 PM »
Khabe

It is good to have a knowledgeable person like yourself on the forum. I will defer to your greater knowledge of generators and motors.

By the way I have a large stack of AC stabilizers in the basement, some of which are too heavy for a strong man to lift. I was referring to an inherent stabilization scheme by virtue of "resonant lock" rather than a discrete device embedded in the machine.

Now I will ask a question. Is it possible to have a "resonant lock " with an AC generator if large capacitors are tuned to the driving AC motor, single or three phase. Have you ever experimented with such a thing. I am merely curious as I have seen something like this in a device called the Rotoverter, but I don't know if it is real.

I have played with DC and AC machines as a young man and recently built a  3KW and  10KW gas powered generator from components because I wanted to experiment with the ratios, rather than buy a commercial fixed speed device.

Your experience is appreciated.......V

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2008, 07:48:12 PM »
No, Im not big specialist,
Those generators, I do wrestle with, are very specific - Im in troubles near every day - I dont feel cheap to ask someone for help or to look from books ... included google  ;)
Although those generators are 3-ph DC -  PM generators - trail  3-ph full bridge rectifier and  several switch mode voltage regulators. My mission is to guarantee stabilized DC 12V and numbers of lower voltages when  RPM at 3.000  up to 18.000 RPM ( 6 times ;-) Complicated because very limited weight and dimensions. My best sides are well-sped fighting with losses and innovative design - by general knowledges of electric machines Im very modest guy. So you can understand that for everyday work I dont need to keep fixed frequency. But if will needed in future I will do it via AC-AC converter  ::)  Actually one of my wind turbines (I have built several) already uses mentioned converter.
Anyway - of course you can lock you generator to needed frequency - but by my opinion it does not help much - lock/fix  just with  big capacitors - tuned LC -  means that efficent will better for this freq., but it does not lock like literally -  just helps to keep appr. RPM and as simplest is this circuit as much it depends about load as well. I would prefer governor.
The same story is when capacitor  "tuned" motor. Yes, you can have good save of energy when the motor of your drilling machine  is tuned for drilling with small bits, when need to use large tool then you will be in troubles - you need to change tuning every time - it means you have to make measurings/tunings for every next work you planned  :-\ Whether why not to use smaller motor - saved as well ;-) actually I just talked about if you meant this video where "tuning laboratory" guys showing their developments, lot of capacitors with switches etg...   LC Tuned motor/generator could be good idea when constant speed and load, for ecample for driving cavity pump/heater ( I have planned to try).
Seems was not much helps from me ... >:(
Hereby Indian guys - look at their hydro power,
Poor Bharats but smart enough to understand about stabilizing and keeping fixed frequency  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF_4M6fiVEM&feature=related

Regards,
khabe

PS;
Please do not mail - please do not suggest these guys to try " Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp..." - poor guys will be throwed away from University  ;D
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 08:12:04 PM by khabe »

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2008, 07:48:12 PM »
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Offline Rise of Raven

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2008, 10:37:25 PM »
I would have liked to see him stop the machine by removing the water hose from the water wheel, not by unpluging it.

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2008, 10:54:01 PM »
I would have liked to see him stop the machine by removing the water hose from the water wheel, not by unpluging it.

You right,
And removed slowly, no jumpy gestures  ;)
khabe

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2008, 10:54:01 PM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2008, 03:38:05 PM »
So, any replications yet?

It would indeed seem to be a variation of the idea of powering a
windmill using an electric fan which in turn is powered by a generator
that is powered by the windmill.
Every physics teacher in the world will tell you it is impossible.
(Unless there is actual natural wind adding to the fan input)

Yes, obviously when you connect the motor of the waterpump
to the generator shaft via a water flow that is allowed to drop down
on a waterwheel, you eliminate direct coupling of the motor
and the generator's counter force,
but the energy needed to pump X water up should be more
than the energy produced by a generator driven by an inefficient
waterwheel which is driven by X water falling down. The water
doesn't get any lighter or heavier, the pump is apparently 80%
efficient, the waterwheel something like what, 50%, let's say
we also have an 80% efficient generator, and if you add all that up
it seems totally impossible for more energy to be produced by the
generator than the pump needs to pump the water back up...
Let's say we input E energy into the pump, then only 80% of that is
turned into moving water, which drops down onto a waterwheel that
is say 50% efficient so that's 50% of the 80% we already had, and now
the generator still needs to turn that into usefull energy output again
at say 80% efficiency again so that's 80% of 50% of 80% of E that comes
out of the generator. input/output ratio = E/0.32E, so the output would
seem to be only 32% of the input?

So how could it work, at all?  ???

Offline Janus20

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2008, 04:22:55 PM »
So, any replications yet?

It would indeed seem to be a variation of the idea of powering a
windmill using an electric fan which in turn is powered by a generator
that is powered by the windmill.
Every physics teacher in the world will tell you it is impossible.
(Unless there is actual natural wind adding to the fan input)

Yes, obviously when you connect the motor of the waterpump
to the generator shaft via a water flow that is allowed to drop down
on a waterwheel, you eliminate direct coupling of the motor
and the generator's counter force,
but the energy needed to pump X water up should be more
than the energy produced by a generator driven by an inefficient
waterwheel which is driven by X water falling down. The water
doesn't get any lighter or heavier, the pump is apparently 80%
efficient, the waterwheel something like what, 50%, let's say
we also have an 80% efficient generator, and if you add all that up
it seems totally impossible for more energy to be produced by the
generator than the pump needs to pump the water back up...
Let's say we input E energy into the pump, then only 80% of that is
turned into moving water, which drops down onto a waterwheel that
is say 50% efficient so that's 50% of the 80% we already had, and now
the generator still needs to turn that into usefull energy output again
at say 80% efficiency again so that's 80% of 50% of 80% of E that comes
out of the generator. input/output ratio = E/0.32E, so the output would
seem to be only 32% of the input?

So how could it work, at all?  ???

It might just work if the water wheel and pump were thrown away. If the generator voltage and frequency were V and Hz  and the Capacitor C farads ...... then ..............Generator output = CV^2(Pi.Hz) Watts = At least the bulb output plus all other "inefficiencies". Say 120 Watts.

Vortex1 can handle this and I will betcha ya'll he does it this year.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2008, 04:22:55 PM »
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Offline spinner

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2008, 04:39:44 PM »
Self-blown windmills... or recirculating watermills... Escher draw a few of those in the past.
If you're interested, there are descriptions and pictures, all the way to 15th century...

Yes, probably we've missed something....

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »
->motor -> pump -> hose -> waterwheel -> belt-transmission -> generator ->
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

lets minimize losses - throw away this generator and take out this motor from pump  :o

->pump -> hose -> waterwheel -> belt-transmission -> (direct to pump)
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Will not work? Does it mean that Overunity is generator or/and motor  ???

Good night,
khabe


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »
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Offline JDHardy54

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2008, 01:32:33 AM »

Khabe,

I'm very busy working on the updated prototype video and dealing with many emails and people who want to come and document the machine.  Checking today through this website and reading your messages actually makes me laugh.  Reading through your figures of what you have tells me that you really don't know what you are talking about.  Have you ever even done anything at all with your hands or are you basically a book learner?  Not wasting any more of my time on this website - I have so many websites to look through.  It seems to me that you don't understand something that is so hard to believe.  So go back and read your books!  If you want to email me personally, I can spend some time with you if you would like to learn something and good night.

James
JDHardy54@comcast.net 


Offline 4Tesla

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #147 on: August 06, 2008, 01:38:49 AM »
@JDHardy54

Don't let one member of the forum push you away.. please let us know when you have posted the next video.. looking forward to it!

Thanks,
Jason

Offline khabe

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #148 on: August 06, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »
Khabe,

I'm very busy working on the updated prototype video and dealing with many emails and people who want to come and document the machine.  Checking today through this website and reading your messages actually makes me laugh.  Reading through your figures of what you have tells me that you really don't know what you are talking about.  Have you ever even done anything at all with your hands or are you basically a book learner?  Not wasting any more of my time on this website - I have so many websites to look through.  It seems to me that you don't understand something that is so hard to believe.  So go back and read your books!  If you want to email me personally, I can spend some time with you if you would like to learn something and good night.

James
JDHardy54@comcast.net 



This is typical bullshit!
Next we will read  from "bublished correspondence" of some member that  "two men with dark coat have been visited you  - was special agent from FBI and representor of National Department of Energy ... was very serious talking and you was forced to sign oath of secrecy ... national security ... international terrorism ... Washington ...
But what about Mr Jackson who has already patented this way to rescue humanity at energy crises ...from economic collapse ???
Was I good enough choice for you to abscond together with this silly thimbleriggery ???
I dont think so -  too many peoples awaiting your promised  - or you show it - true working unit - or you have to excuse ...

regards,
khabe

Offline robertjackson

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Re: Selfrunning Waterpump-generator device runs 60 Watts lamp...
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2008, 08:53:02 AM »
@all For the record I hold no patents that will save the world like Khabe has stated .Anybody with half a brain should be able to distinguished a patent application(especially when I tell you I don't have a patent) from a granted patent. I was just trying to help Mr. Hardy with some prior art granted patents that he may need to get around (he should have no problems getting around  my poorly done 500 dollar patent applications or if any one else that may want to get around any my other poorly done  500 dollar patent applications it shoundn't be a problem) There is 11 all together this 500 dollar figure includes several failed prototypes. I gave up a long time ago on getting my 5000 dollars back, but I'm proud to be first on paper for most of them(I was 2nd on a couple of them.I wouldn't of even care about this forum but a few months back when I googled my name on Yahoo "robert jackson patent applications" links to this forum show up with people bad mouthing me this still happens and I really don't like it but I would feel forced to post something (like now) to try to defend myself .I get 75% of my hits on my free webpages from this source,.In a sick way it is funny (I have had people spend money on bad mouthing me for which I received 1000's of hits on my webpages) I would like to thank a couple of openmined people who took the time, effort, and money for publishing my open source ideas a few years ago. I never claimed to be a engineer (in fact I never been to college or even have a high school diploma) but I do consider myself a very creative person The following is some personal thoughts of mine about the patent office and why it would be hard for a independent inventor or small company to get a patent for any working "free energy device" Look at this list of political appointees at the patent office and tell me that it doesn't  look suspicious I feel this may be the tip of the iceberg. The patent office may be corrupt Judge for yourself. Look at these bio's Vickers B. Meadows (in charge of human resources and corporate services) No prior patent expierence and close personal friend of the Bushes   http://www.uspto.gov/biographies/bio_meadows.htm  Margaret J.A. Peterlin (Deputy Director) http://www.uspto.gov/biographies/bio_peterlin.htm  Google these prior employees James E. Rogan (director 2001-2004) had very littlle if any patent expiercienced and is proud of being a high school dropout(I don't hold that against him but other things I do).His name was link to the Jack Abramoff scandal (resign 2004 for some reason)Stephen M. Pinkos ex Deputy Director resign for some reason and was replaced by Peterlin. There is a law that says that director and deputy directors should have prior patent expierinced  and there qualifications are questionable to say the least (In my opinion and numerous independent inventors organizations) Alot of people claim the patent office has been poorly managed and I feel this will be brought out in the open some day. Meantime I think a patent attorney with "connections " (they all work for the patent office only) could help anyone out with enough money and it wouldn't hurt being a republican for the time being for now at least. I don't think any so called "Mib's are worried about any independent inventor or small company because they control who gets the patent rights(Could it be big oil hmm). Basically patent rights are where the money is or at least that is what they think . More thoughts of mine on this subject are at http://www.geocities.com/jackson_robert58/patoffice.html  I base these thoughts on logic (this administration actions concerning all political appointees in every department of government) I think a full scale non partsan investagation of the patent office should be done (not justice department or f.b.i.)    I sure hope I don't have to reply to another post on this forum. PLEASE KEEP MY NAME OUT OF ANY FUTURE THREADS. I don't  blame this inventor who this thread is about from not wanting to post here (What is the use he will be riduculed no matter what). I hope the best for this inventor. I did try a personal e-mail at first to this inventor (I know your busy) I posted all this following information because I thought it may be important to anyone who tries to patent any device like this one. I'm willing to help out in anyway I can to anyone who I can help. I don't have any granted patents so I don't think there is much I can do,thou. I'm pretty good at weeding out e-mails and don't take it personal if I don't feel I can help you.I can just imagine the possible reply's to this on this thread I hope this thread just dies as it should.I personally have said everything that I care to say forever on  this or any other forum.  There is very few people in this world that I care about and really don't care about rest. I will do my best to help the people I like and the rest can keep doing whatever you do just leave me out it PLEASE.

 

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