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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED  (Read 41084 times)

Offline tishatang

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URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« on: July 13, 2008, 07:56:39 AM »
@All
Since Gotoluc started his thread, we have learned a lot in a short time.  We learned that the water undergoes a state of change from a liquid to a gas by the ignition of a plasma spark.  The spark is triggered by high voltage and low voltage combined, releasing a radiant effect that relaxes the bonds of the molecules of water into a vapor by evidently the latent heat in the water itself.  It seems only the water in the near field of the spark is effected.  Knowing these things, how would we go about designing and ICE to run on water.  It turns out someone did all these things in 1972.  Go here and look at this patent with new eyes!

http://www.rexresearch.com/papp/2pappats.htm#4428193

Joseph Papp called it a Noble Gas motor, but it really is a water motor.  Look at the combustion chambers, four toroid cavities with the electrodes in the center.  Hermetically sealed to keep the gases and water in and not contaminate the crankcase.  High voltage and low voltage to the spark electrodes with extra modulation of AC in the megahertz range.  Plus additional magnetic coils to stress the water.  The two stroke motor uses the down stroke of one cylinder to prepare the firing of the upstroke cylinder.  The exhaust stays within the engine and is recycled.  There is only a brief mention of water mixed with mineral oil and chlorine.  The big emphasis is on the noble gas mixture as the fuel.  I am guessing the noble gas thing is smoke and mirrors because Papp knew the power was simply water and he wanted to keep that secret.  I am thinking he didn't know how to describe what was really happening, the Graneau Paper didn't come out until the late 1990's.  So, he invented a lot of extra things to put in the stew to convince the patent office and his investors his had a new type of nuclear process going on, and it was so complicated only he had the "magic" formula and keys to the secret.

The first patent mentions the water mix and the plasma spark and pretreating the water with 440 volts for six hours.  The second patent  1984 shown further down the page conveniently never mentions the water formula.

Those of you smarter than I am should look at this patent and separate BS from what is important to do to the water for our own engines.  There is always the possibility of a noble gas actually contributing to the power.  The radiant spark can change water to its next higher state of a gas.  Maybe it can also change a gas into a higher state, maybe a monatomic  form or something.  Maybe one of you with an engine can try sparking your test engine when it is filled with helium or orgon or neon or whatever is handy?

Anyway a lot of engineering and money went into this design.  There should be design clues to help us in our quest.

Tishatang

 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 04:16:51 PM »
Hi Tishatang,

thank you for creating this excellent topic. You are wise to link Joseph Papp's Gas Motor with what we are doing since we will probably find out we will need a similar process in the end to make this work.

Joseph Papp past away some years ago but he had an assistant that went on his own after some dispute and he actually refined the Gas Motor to a new level. I had some video's of his work and I will go through an old hard drive to find them and upload them for everyone to see.

Please keep this topic going as it will be an important resource for us.

Luc

BTW, good topic title ;D
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:46:07 AM by gotoluc »

Offline rapttor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 05:09:09 PM »
There's some guys at a machine shop in I believe florida that have completely replicated Papp's engine design, and it works just as he said it did.
http://www.rohnermachine.com/index.html
http://www.pappengine.com/

thanks Tishatang for posting this subject

regards,
rapttor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 05:09:09 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 06:10:21 PM »
Gotta love how much mentioning of how complex this "magic" is on those pages. Knowing the principle a bit better now it's like knowing what's bs in that patent and what's not. It's a lovely feeling.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline wavez

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 06:40:36 PM »
Very neat. I was not familiar with the Papp engine before now.

@ Tishatang, you mention a paper by Peter Graneau. Do you have a link for this?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 06:40:36 PM »
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Offline zapper

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 05:26:08 AM »
Hi,

@Tishatang : Thanks for making the right connections

Maybe charging the water before it goes into the engine plays a very significant part in the energy release process. 

Maybe this is what Steve Ryan from Newzland did with his "mystery box" before using the water in his motorbike.  This along with the minor modification to the carburrator and the ignition system might be just what is needed to run our engines on water.

Regards,

Zapper

Offline jeanna

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 05:54:15 AM »
Very neat. I was not familiar with the Papp engine before now.

@ Tishatang, you mention a paper by Peter Graneau. Do you have a link for this?

Since he has not replied, I will suggest the following link

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index.html

About 2/3 of the way down the very long page is a section on papers. (It follows the section with patents)

paper 2 and 4 are by graneau.

I hope this helps.

jeanna

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 05:54:15 AM »
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Offline tishatang

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 07:45:00 AM »
@jenna
Thanks for stepping up to the plate for me and answering.  I am in China behind their firewall.  Besides the time difference, I cannot access many sites.  Sometimes I cannot access this site, and I have to wait.  I can not access the Rohnermachine site.  I connected the dots between the Papp engine and the water for fuel engine and wanted to bring it to everyones attention.

Here is the link I have for the Graneau papers:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

Anyone, please feel free to jump in on any part of this thread.  I am not an expert, but have general knowledge to see the process.  If anyone is having a problem in their own design, possibly that problem has been overcome somewhere in the Papp patents.  I did contact a representative of the Papp engine because I felt the secret was the water.  I was anxious for them to try it with just water alone without all the complications if they still had  an engine?  I didn't get very far.  Their answer was on insisting it is a nuclear fusion process and I was wrong in my conclusions.  They say soon they will get the engine running.  I wished them well and look forward to its revival.

This is how I look at the situation.  If it is a nuclear fusion engine, it will be years, if ever ,to see this technology powering our homes or automobiles.
If Peter Graneau is right, then we have a water engine already designed by papp.  Currently, the people surrounding the Papp engine are very top level PHD types, not the poor common people like you and me that need a water for fuel engine now!

It never made sense to me that a relatively uneducated immigrant could come this continent and be smarter than all these PHDs?  After all these years we have yet to see it run publicly.  What makes sense to me is that Papp probably was playing around with an plasma spark for a regular ICE.  He noticed the crankshaft jump maybe from the explosion of the moisture in the air in the unfueled chamber.  Wondering what caused that, he next starting exploring the gases that are naturally in the air including water vapor.  If noble gases are involved, there had to be some small effect observed with each gas.  There had to be some evolutionary  process that would lead to the complexity of the patents.  It could also be that all the hired big PHD's tried to explain it from their intellect and invented the complexity to get a patent with a running engine.  The Graneau theories did not exist at the time of the patents.

I wish everyone good luck in their experiments

Tishatang

Offline Shiver

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 09:20:57 AM »
Maybe a mix of noble gasses can be compressed to liquid without too much compression (no idea, never looked), and so stay as a gas once exploded, whereas water returns to its water state too quickly.  There may be better liquids than water that could do this.  It wouldn't really matter what since it can be a closed loop.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 09:20:57 AM »
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Offline Spider

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 03:59:26 PM »
Haha that would be nice, take a regular car engine, take the exhaust off, and make a hose from the exhaust manifold directly to the intake manifold. If it is running on hho then the water in the exhaust gasses would be reused directly as fuel again. You dont even need a turbo charger....Only add a HV spark!

Greetings Spider,

Vroom vroom... ;D

Offline resonanceman

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 05:59:41 AM »
Haha that would be nice, take a regular car engine, take the exhaust off, and make a hose from the exhaust manifold directly to the intake manifold. If it is running on hho then the water in the exhaust gasses would be reused directly as fuel again. You dont even need a turbo charger....Only add a HV spark!

Greetings Spider,

Vroom vroom... ;D


Spider

It is not  quite that simple

The  way you  wrote  it ........it sounds like you  are thinking  of  recycling  the  exhaust  to the same  cylinder .
It  can't  work   using the same cylinder
The phase    is wrong  .     

If you    use  2 cylinders  90  degrees out of  phase ........   you end up  with a  sterling engine .   
You  would need   a new manifold to  direct  the air   back and forth  between  the  cylinders 
No  valves would  be needed

To make it more efficient    heat  collectors  should  be put in the  manifold

I  see no reason  that  a   constant  arc  would not work .



Making  a water arc  sterling  is  on my to do list .





gary

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 05:59:41 AM »
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Offline nightlife

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 08:32:52 AM »
I had came across this before and I was asked to find it again and I have not been able to. This is that motor and I too believe it is and or can be ran off water.

 Here is the video I seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Ztw0nYVS0

 Thank you for starting this thread.

Offline tishatang

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL ENGINE DISCOVERED AND PATENTED
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 11:43:20 AM »
@resonanceman
It might be easier to convert a two cylinder air compressor head.  You can get an inline or V-2 replacement from harborfreight.com pretty cheap.  You could rig up a regular induction motor as a starter with a sprague clutch to disengage once it fires up.  As I recall, you can run a three phase motor on regular single phase AC.  You need to use a capacitor across the third coil.  If you get it to run, the third coil can be supplied with DC from the battery and it becomes a generator.  Then you wouldn't need the sprague clutch and you would have a home power plant if all goes well.

@nightlife
Here is another link to a Papp video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kQ9MdoKT7I

If you read through the 1972 patent, it goes into detail about first filling the chamber with de-oxygenated water (deionized?).  Then adding chlorine to saturation and displacing more and more water, with the noble gases.  The 1984 patent never mentions the water pre-charging process.  It just references the earlier patent.  It seems to me, water is the biggest proportion of fuel in the combustion chambers when all is said and done.  A lot of detail is about mixing the gases in the special holding chambers.  These gases are not in direct contact with the water/gas combo in the working combustion chamber..  To me this is a water engine with lots of diversion going on with what's really happening.  Lots of places to hide a simple diode to convert regular spark vs plasma spark as per latest Peter video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMELbK8zDQ

Tishatang



 

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