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Author Topic: Simple injector  (Read 19570 times)

Offline resonanceman

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Simple injector
« on: July 05, 2008, 04:26:23 PM »
I still  think  that  direct injection   is the  way to go

I  think that  a small simple pump is  required

It would have to be  easy to  make  and be able to   inject directly into a  cylinder of  a diesel  near  top dead center .

Now .............believe  it or not ........everyone  that  has been  reading  these threads  knows how to build this pump .

You  just havn't  connected the  dots  yet ..


Lets  connect a  few dots  starting   with  the  fuel line

Connected to the fuel line would  be a check  valve .

Conected to that  check valve  would   be a non  conducting high  pressure tube .

Connected to the other end of the  the non conducting  tube would be another check valve .

Connected to  the  second  check valve  would  be  a non  conducting high pressure tuble going to the  cylinder .

A  board  with some  simple  electronics   would also be needed .

Oh ......... also .......  there would have to be  wires  from the  output of the  electronic  board to the  bodies  of the check valves .

For  the most  basic  electronic  controls  we would need a high voltage source and a low  voltage source  . and  a way to switch  the  high  voltage source on and  off at the right times .

The  most  advanced  countrols  that could be made would  include a small  computer that creates   simulations  of all the signals that a modern ICE  looks for .


It  doesn't  matter if we  create bubbles in the water as we pump it .
All that is required is we get the pumping pressure up quickly  at the right time

Can  the volume  that we pump  be controlled ?     
 I am not  sure what ink jet printers  use for  check valves ........but they  work in this  exact same way .   They seem to control  the  volume  pretty well


gary

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Simple injector
« on: July 05, 2008, 04:26:23 PM »

Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 04:37:20 PM »
I think  that the ideal  way to  ignite the  water is to  make a  spark plug  with  a tube going through  the middle  of it ..........and  have electrodes  in that  tube  .

One nice thing about this set up ....... neither of the  electrodes would not have to be  connected to the engine

learning to make  plugs like this  would not be easy ....... but it would make  a good  " cottage industry  "  once the  details are ironed out

gary


Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 06:18:26 PM »
After  thinking about  how the  arc  would work in  between the  bodies of the   check valves I  realized that  it would be  difficult  to construct  without  making   a gap that was way to wide .

I am now thinking that  a  metal  tube should be attached to  one  check valve and a  metal rod  to the other .

The   rod  would  fit inside the tube .......the  spark gap  would be  between them . 
The  high pressure non conducting tube would  slide over the metal  tube .......and it would have to be a little longer  than the metal   tube to  prevent sparking  between the  metal tube and the other   check valve body

The  whole  thing  should  be  rigid .......but  it doesn't  have to be aligned perfectly . 

gary

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 06:18:26 PM »
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Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 07:17:11 PM »
For  the  plug part of the injector  what looks best to me  was found on  the  first  link  of  post 335 on  Lucs Urgent  thread .

http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html

Unlike  this  thruster   I  think the  plug    part  for our  uses should  be ALWAYS on
It should be powered by a simple HV  transformer .

The  voltage  of the transformer should be low enough that   there is no arcing   unless there is  water  or  plasma in the gap

The  engine  HP  will  be regulated  by  how  much  of a bang  we  make in the injector .

I   think  we will have to  scale   the sparks back a bit .   ....... the sparks  that people are getting  now  are probably to big for the injector .   .......... 
An ignition  coil may be to  big for the HV  for the  injector .

The    water  will take  a short  amount of time  to  move through the    second  check valve .........this  will  offset any need to retard  the timing .
A  small  accumulator  could be added   to even out the pressure of  the injector  bang  and   make the  plug  fire longer ...... 

gary

Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 05:57:43 PM »
I did  a couple  simple  of  the  basic  concept  of the   electrode  end of the plug

I am  new to  drawing  on the computer .

It took WAY longer than  it should  have  to  draw these .   It is not hard .........but it is like  learning a new language .   You  have to search for the way each thing  is done. 

These  drawings  are for  concept  only . 
There  is no  measurements worked out yet

The  first  image is of the   actual electrode  set up  that fires into the  cylinder

The blue  part represents   the  outer  shell .    At first I  will  be breaking  the  ceramic  out of old  sparkplugs and  reusing  it  for this part .

The  black   is  a tungsten  rod     
 I did a quick search and found that  tungsten   electrodes  are avalible for  some common  welders   from  .40 in  to  3/16  in.        There may be other sizes commonly  available  .   
The  largest electorode that  there is  space for  should be used .

The  red is a  section of  copper  tube

The  white  is a castable  ceramic  .
I am  thinking of  trying     2 part Silica ceramic
Part Number:  8498K11     from  http://www.mcmaster.com/

In the drawing   notice that  the  botom  of the  ceramic  part is   rounded as it  leaves the  copper electrode  .  This is  to   try to draw the  plasma into a fan  shape.    It  is less likely  to burn a hole in the piston  that way .





The  second  drawing   is   more about   construction than  theory .
The   green  section  is a cross section of what I would call  the electrode  carrier .     It is  a combination electrode holder and  mold .        The   yellow  section  fits over the  threads of the   old spark plug thread and  between the  2 of them  I should  be able to  get  good enough alignment   during  construction

I would like to  be able to  build  the check  valves into the top of the plug ............but that may not be practical 
I will have to  experment  with  the accumulator  part of it to  see how big it needs to be  . 
There may also be  good reasons for  several  accumulators   with valves  to switch  them in or out of  operation .


This  plug is  designed to   be switched  by  the output of   the injector .    The  voltage will have to be kept   just below  what will  arc across the gap  with  no  water  or  plasma in the gap .

Notice that the  ceramic   sticks out   the bottom more  than the width of the gap . ....this is  to prevent  stray plasma  from  shorting out to the  engine  block 



 gary 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simple injector
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 05:57:43 PM »
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Offline jeanna

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 09:47:37 PM »
Gary et al,

This looks a lot simpler.

http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy


The video at the top is the one I am referring to.

user zenarrow from here has compiled some of the really concise and important videos about brown's gas.

this video is a drawing and explanation of the (simple) engine modifications necessary to accomplish driving results using HHO.

The really important part is the implosion instead of explosion.

It really makes sense to me.

Where ex-plosion is very wasteful, perhaps im-plosion is the clue to overunity.

have a look

jeanna

Offline nightlife

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 10:42:41 PM »
 Hi Jeanna, nice find. That video shows what most here are not understanding when it comes to using HHO to power a engine but even the makers of that video have missed something.

 Now think real hard about what you seen in that video and think about what has been found out on other topics such as Luc's. Then send me an PM telling me what you figured out.

  A man figured this out many years ago but didn?t use water. He used gases. You may recall the video I am talking about once you figure out what I am talking about.
 
 LOL, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, it just takes some common sense.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simple injector
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 10:42:41 PM »
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Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 11:13:31 PM »
I  have been thinking  about  the  check valve   acumullator  thing

I have  decided  that  it would be foolish  to try to   put  everything  together  in one package at this time .

There are just to many wild cards  .........there is to much  that  can be done  to   limit it to   one set of  variables .


As I see it the  weight of the check valve may be similar to   inductance .
The  strength  of the  check valve  spring  may  be similar to resistance .
An accumulator  can act  very much  like a capacitor .

Now ..........if we  have the  engine  running and  kick in  a second   small accumulator ...... and maybe  put a little  more pressure on the   check valve spring      we have something that works  kind of  like a vacume advance  . 

The  fact that  the combustion prosess is  much  faster than with gas   is a  problem   if you   are thinking   in conventional  terms .   
If you look at  it from  a different  angle   it may not be a problem .

 Can you only  inject   water for the same amount of time that you would be injecting oil  in a diesel?

Why not    use a big accumulator ..........and   a very heavy valve or  better yet  a hydroloically   dampened valve
The  accumulator  could   hold the  entire  blast  from the  injector  and   feed it into  the  engine   over a much longer   time  frame  ............ the  biggest  problem with this is  it would become self defeating at high speed .  The  valve would  have to  be less dampened   or  the  spring  less pressure at higher  rpm
I am still working on how to do that .


gary


« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 12:01:56 AM by resonanceman »

Offline goldenequity

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 03:55:00 AM »
Hi Gary
Thought you might like to look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q4bW1E9eXc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simple injector
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 03:55:00 AM »
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Offline whopper1967

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 04:12:28 AM »
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/photos/browse/2b41        take a look at this....might be of interest to you resonance.

Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 04:55:27 AM »
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/photos/browse/2b41        take a look at this....might be of interest to you resonance.

Whopper   thanks for the link 

I joined  that  group  ......not sure how  much time I will spend there but I will look around 

The  duel anode  injectors  are  very similar to my original  idea for an injector ..........then  Stefan  posted  the  link for  the  thruster .    It is WAY better  .......    I also  don't  think  the  outer  part of the  plug should  be connected to high   voltage .
It looks  like people  are having lots of trouble  with their  replications  at least in part of this kind of   grounding .


gary


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simple injector
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 04:55:27 AM »
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Offline Kineticon

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 10:58:31 AM »
Hi.
If HHO would had an imploding type burning, adding HHO to the manifold along with the gasoline would decrease the horsepower.
Instead, they report increases.
Anyway, how do we know it's implosion and not explosion?
If implosion, the timing of spark woud have to be adjusted a lot...

Offline greendoor

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 01:06:18 PM »
You have to get your thinking straight on this spark plug project.

Are you trying to dissociate water into H & O, and burn them releasing heat?  If so - I believe you are going the wrong way, and the energy you will require will be as great as the energy you hope to get out of it.  But if that's what turns you on, at least design the plug for that: high temperature ceramics might be the way to go.  Probably re-inventing the wheel - checkout the Firestorm plug and others like it that have never seen the light of day because of the powers that be.

If - like I believe - you think the power in water spark plasma is a low temperature release of the latent heat energy in liquid water, then your plug design principles and materials will have to be very different.

Graneau believes that the spark energy is an electro-mechanical breaking of the hydrogen bonds that link water molecules together.  It takes about 50 joules of spark energy to do this, compared to about 10,000 Joules of spark energy to dissociate water into H & O.  Totally different things.

It's the low temperature application that suggests the greatest amount of free power - and by all account these explosions do not raise the temperature much above ambiant. 

The amount of air required is also debateable, as is the compression ratio.  I believe a completely new engine would be the best way to exploit this new energy source.  I'm thinking something more like a water pump - perhaps with accumulators to even out the pressure impulses.

ICE engines can be converted to run on compressed air - so the water spark cells could be external.  I think that is a much better idea - because it would solve the issues of rusting, hydraulicing & freezing.

 



Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 03:27:21 PM »
You have to get your thinking straight on this spark plug project.


Greendoor

I have a suggestion  for you .
Before you tell some one "  You have to "     visit  your local hospital  and  take a walk through the intensive care unit .
You will  quickly find that eating and breathing are much preferred  but  not strictly needed  to live .

Is my need to get my thinking  straight  more important  than eating or  breathing ? 

Quote

Are you trying to dissociate water into H & O, and burn them releasing heat?  If so - I believe you are going the wrong way, and the energy you will require will be as great as the energy you hope to get out of it.  But if that's what turns you on, at least design the plug for that: high temperature ceramics might be the way to go.  Probably re-inventing the wheel - checkout the Firestorm plug and others like it that have never seen the light of day because of the powers that be.

If - like I believe - you think the power in water spark plasma is a low temperature release of the latent heat energy in liquid water, then your plug design principles and materials will have to be very different.

Graneau believes that the spark energy is an electro-mechanical breaking of the hydrogen bonds that link water molecules together.  It takes about 50 joules of spark energy to do this, compared to about 10,000 Joules of spark energy to dissociate water into H & O.  Totally different things.

It's the low temperature application that suggests the greatest amount of free power - and by all account these explosions do not raise the temperature much above ambiant. 

The amount of air required is also debateable, as is the compression ratio.  I believe a completely new engine would be the best way to exploit this new energy source.  I'm thinking something more like a water pump - perhaps with accumulators to even out the pressure impulses.

ICE engines can be converted to run on compressed air - so the water spark cells could be external.  I think that is a much better idea - because it would solve the issues of rusting, hydraulicing & freezing.



I don't care .

To me  all this is  mental mumbo  jumbo .

I  can go to the store and buy a pair  of running  shoes   without knowing  the chemical  composition of the soles  or  the exact  steps in manufacturing  them .
I  have noticed that  running   with  running shoes is much  better than running in dress shoes . 
So I buy  running shoes  for  running .

The  choices I have made to get me  to my current  design  are because  of the observations that I have made .

In the end my design  will  probably  be much lower power  than most  ...........both  the  pump section and the injector  section have built in limits  on  the power used .
In  the pump  the  power  used  is only  enough to  inject  the  right amount of   water into the cylinder .
If   you  are  thinking  in mumbo  jumbo   you  will be wondering  " now much water? ."
I don't care .     
I will inject a little   and see if it works ........
If it doesn't work  I will try a little more . 
Once I get it  running  adding more water  will make it run faster .............up to a point .......  I will find that point  by observing what happens .


gary




Offline resonanceman

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Re: Simple injector
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2008, 09:26:07 PM »
After thinking  about  the  design   of the  pump  part  of the injector  I   came to realize  that   bubbles  dictate  certain   details  of  the  design

For   the  pump itself    the  output  check valve  HAS  to be higher than the  input  check valve

If the input  valve is higher the  bubbles would tend to collect  there and  the air pocket  would   grow with each firing  ....... eventually   shutting off  any  flow

Controlling  the  same   problem  in the  connection  between the  pump section and the  injector section   creates a way to   make a variable   accumulator  .
All that is needed   is a  set of   discharge  tubes  of   that leave  different  amounts of  space  above them  .
So by   selecting   a discharge tube  with a valve   it  will be possible to  set  the   accumulator .

I hope to   get a  simple drawing of this  stuff  posted  this  in the next day or so .

gary

 

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