# Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

## Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: Butch on July 02, 2008, 07:01:34 PM

Title: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on July 02, 2008, 07:01:34 PM
You can take mild steel washers (the kind that does not stay magnetized when magnet is removed) and place them on a vertical wood dowel. Now place a magnet on each side of the washers with the north pole of one facing the south pole of the other. Have a horse shoe shaped flat bar connecting the outer poles of each magnet so that you have a self made horse shoe magnet.
Now move the open air space between the inner poles so that the washers will be between the two faces of the magnets.
Notice that the washers separate from each other. This is because the magnetic path through each washer has the same orientation and they repel each other.
Now notice that the work needed to remove the horse shoe is equal when the washers are together and touching each other or when they are separated. This means that the work available from the separating of the washers is free because the washers separate at a 90 degree angle to the magnetic field or flux flow direction. After testing I posted a series of drawings years ago, but no one bothered to notice this.
Do not allow washers to separate to a point where they go beyond the width of the magnet. They must stay in the space between the pole faces of the two magnets.Remember the wood dowel is at 90 degrees vertical to the horse shoe when the horse shoe is laying flat on a table.
I have posted to my web page 7 drawings that include a new rotary version using this principle which makes use also of the conservation of angular momentum as part of it's operation. As you know when a mass is rotating in a circle and work is done to make the mass move toward the center axis of rotation the speed of the mass will attempt to increase and the work done on the mass shows up as an increase in the speed and kinetic energy of the rotating mass.
This is done in my design with out having to put additional work into the system.
This should open up a whole new field in overunity permanent magnet and/or electromagnet research and development.
See web page > http://lafonte.fdp.nu
Open folder B00 and look at drawings, Butch10, Butch8, Butch2a, Butch2, Butch11, 1-7-08 A and 1-7-08 D
Also see attached drawing

Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
The LaFonte Group
Birmingham, Alabama
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 07:11:58 PM
Amazing, Butch,
this is exactly the setup Dave Squires wanted to get a patent on
and I should not tell you all yet about it....

Now you came up with the same setup on your own...
Seems to be the morphogenetic fields spreading the ideas.... ;)

This is the cracked "magnetic code" as Dave Squires has called it.

I invite Dave to come over here to tell the whole story...

I guess he can now forget his patent...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this, Reply to Stefan
Post by: Butch on July 02, 2008, 11:01:02 PM
Stefan,
I think you should say to Dave, not me, amazing! Seeing how I posted the designs nine years ago to The Free energy List and JLN Labs. Look at the drawings on my web page and the dates. Also, these drawings were sent all over the world to many people during that time in my collection of work I mailed out from time to time.
Why would you not mention my past work on this when replying about this? The drawings are out there (and on your own site now) and have been for 9 years.
You didn't bother to mention that?
This is the second time some one has asked me to keep qiut about something I designed. This is the thanks I get for open sourcing my work. No wonder more people don't open source, somebody just claims it for there own. I was asked to sign a non disclosure agreement by that guy with the spiral motor and after I did he showned me my design that had been all over the web!!!
I should never have put my work out on the web. Instead of saving the planet, it's just making other people rich that sell the work to the highest bidder and it never gets to market.
Butch laFonte

Amazing, Butch,
this is exactly the setup Dave Squires wanted to get a patent on
and I should not tell you all yet about it....

Now you came up with the same setup on your own...
Seems to be the morphogenetic fields spreading the ideas.... ;)

This is the cracked "magnetic code" as Dave Squires has called it.

I invite Dave to come over here to tell the whole story...

I guess he can now forget his patent...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on July 03, 2008, 12:26:54 AM
Hi Butch,
which drawings do you exactly mean ?

Dave Squires?s device is still a bit different in the driving aspect,
but I have promised him, not to speak about it,
until he has got his patent.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2008, 11:01:30 AM
Hi Stefan,

You can find some of Butch's drawings referred to in B11 folder of site  (http://lafonte.fdp.nu )   see Butch's letter on this here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5068.0;topicseen

Unfortunately, I can find big X in place of these drawings: BUTCH2,  BUTCH10,  BUTCH11.  These drawings are not included....  I wonder why?

And drawings PTFP,  1-7-08 A,  1-7-08 B  are in folder B00...

rgds, Gyula
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this, Reply to Stefan
Post by: klicUK on July 03, 2008, 02:01:27 PM
Stefan,
I think you should say to Dave, not me, amazing! Seeing how I posted the designs nine years ago to The Free energy List and JLN Labs. Look at the drawings on my web page and the dates. Also, these drawings were sent all over the world to many people during that time in my collection of work I mailed out from time to time.
Why would you not mention my past work on this when replying about this? The drawings are out there (and on your own site now) and have been for 9 years.
You didn't bother to mention that?
This is the second time some one has asked me to keep qiut about something I designed. This is the thanks I get for open sourcing my work. No wonder more people don't open source, somebody just claims it for there own. I was asked to sign a non disclosure agreement by that guy with the spiral motor and after I did he showned me my design that had been all over the web!!!
I should never have put my work out on the web. Instead of saving the planet, it's just making other people rich that sell the work to the highest bidder and it never gets to market.
Butch laFonte

Hi Butch,

The problem is that if you don't publish your designs or get around to patenting them and then someone independently thinks of them, they will end up getting all the credit. It could just be that Dave Squires came up with the same/similar concept on his own. I know exactly how you feel though.

regards,

KLiCuk
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: scraven on July 03, 2008, 02:14:44 PM
who cares who did what first? If the rings push out more energy than it takes to lower and raise the magnet then fun times for all. Everything else is just bullSh*t. To be honest this doesn't look any different than any other magnet jigga any of us have seen. Yes magnets store energy but really the only way to release that energy is by heat. Everything else is just transferring kinetic into whatever. Make love, not PMM's.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2008, 04:23:07 PM
@ scraven

I respect your opinion, though I do not fully agree...

I do think individual ideas should be acknowledged and respected and copyright should be observed.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on October 02, 2008, 05:01:53 AM
Now Butch has uploaded many design variations
of these ideas to:

Dave Squires told me, that his idea for it could yield at least a 50:1 overunity motor
this way.

You only need very low power input to switch the coil and you get
the 90 degree movement of the iron parts for almost free.

It wonÃ‚Â´t change the inductance of the coil and thus only
ohmical losses in the coil must be overcome.

The forces on the moving iron parts are very big though...
So there is a big OverUnity factor involved.

You can also recycle back the energy you put into the coil inductance.

So this is a very nice concept for a huge overunity factor motor.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on October 02, 2008, 05:12:05 AM
The trick with this concept is, that magnet fieldlines repell itsself !

If you stuck iron parts into parallel magnet field lines, they repell each other at 90 degrees !

So the movement of the repelling iron parts is 90 degrees to the cause: the magnetic field.

So there is no back drag onto the magnet field this way, as it is 90 degrees and so Lentz
law is violated.

The coil, which produces the magnet field to switch it on and off,
does not see the movement of the iron parts,although they repell each other with
a very huge force.

The magnetic flux path resistance  is not changed much and thus
the inductance and magnetic resistance of the whole
core stays almost constant, so no more energy is needed from the
coil, when the iron parts move.

This design can be designed to make huge reciprocating motors
which have a very high mechanical power output by using only fractions
for the input power.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on October 02, 2008, 05:27:22 AM
Especially these 2 are the valid concepts:

If these moving pieces are iron pieces, this will not alter the magnetic
resistance the coil will see, thus so more energy is needed,
when the iron pieces will push a mechanical load.

It is a drag back electrical motor.
The input power is always constant,no mater
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on October 02, 2008, 05:43:17 AM
Combine this type of motor with a dragless generator from
Dan Quale:

www.overunitybuilder.com

and you should get a perfect selfrunner experience.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: wizkycho on October 02, 2008, 12:55:21 PM
Hi Butch !

You just can't stop to amaze us with ammount of simple and more than obvious working ideas ...  :D
I'm jumping up and down right now.
Another well established working principle.
Many Many Thanks

This type of vector movement conversion can Help (it is NOW a must) and make Flynn and Hildebrand types of OU motors ALLWAYS workable.
In their setups (and in every other type of today motors) MOVING PARTs IS getting away from the cause of moving rendering LESS and LESS FORCE for movement.
Now Thanks to Butch We have allmost CONSTANT AMMOUNT OF FORCE on moving parts (are not changing distance from cause of moving) as long as we wan't it to act. making our setups predictable, more calculable...it is easier  now to push them to OU mode with certainty. This is very important in magnetism where distance is everything.

Dave Squires should quit the patent, join us and make it happen.

What to say ?
Butch Let THE FORCE be with YOU.

Wiz

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: drsquires on October 02, 2008, 07:43:03 PM
This is Dave Squires responding to this thread.

Here is the whole truth regarding this principle and Butch LaFonte's claims and actions.

True: Butch posted this idea on the web about 9 years ago give or take a few months.
But he did nothing with it.  He did not INVENT anything.  Where is the product or patent?
Butch posted it and it appears then waited for others to do something with it.

This principle has been used in the steel industry for something like 50 years.
I didn't know this.  I did NOT know that Butch LaFonte had posted this idea on the web
9 years ago.  The idea came to me totally independently of Butch's posting or industry use
for "Fanner Magnets".   The point is that NOBODY saw the true SIGNIFICANCE of this principle.

Butch did not pick this back up until I mentioned all the research and simulations I did
ON MY OWN.  I PROVED with magnetic simulations and bench tests that there is something
of significance to this principle other than using it for separating steel plates in a welding shop.
Then Butch got all excited about it again when I told him of my research and proofs.  If I had
not told him he would still have no clue about it's true significance.

Butch has burned his bridge with me by insulting my father's memory and me by saying that
my late father said I was all about money.   Such an insult was totally uncalled for.  I had
thought Butch was a better man than this.

What I had proposed to apply for a patent on was a practical use of this principle, not
a set of washers on a dowel.

Since the cat is out of the bag for all intents and purposes and Stefan has mentioned a few
key aspects already I can confirm that the key principles are true based on my many simulations
and optimization of the key parameters.  I will NOT give away what the optimum parameters are
for practical usage.  Those of you on this forum can do your own independent research as you like.
It's probably better that way anyhow.

The basic aspects that I can confirm that have been mentioned in this thread already are:

1. For an EM coil properly set up the inductance of a coil will remain constant and see no
change between collapsed and expanded conditions of steel elements in the magnetic gap.
This means that the coil cannot see anything happen when those steel elements move and
perform work.  This is because the volume of steel and gaps are unchanged in the magnetic
path creating a case of constant magnetic reluctance in the magnetic circuit.  It is a
nearly perfect case of non-reciprocity.  The motion of the steel pieces is virtually invisible to the coil.

2. For the case where permanent magnets are used the force of attraction on the magnets
is the same for collapsed and expanded states of the steel elements.  This means that
any motion of the magnets resolves to a integrated average force of very close to zero.
My bench tests showed that these cogging forces are equal to within 2% or better.
The expansion force is at right angles or orthogonal to the applied magnetic field and
the attractive cogging forces.   It allows isolation of attractive and repulsive forces.

In reality what I have discovered and proven is a law of magnetic fields that says that

"The repelling force of a magnetic field is always orthogonal to the attractive force and both
forces are always present at all times."

The concept of "like poles repel" is an over-simplification and not really true because magnetic
poles are an artifact of concentrated magnetic field flow collected in a toroidal arrangement.
Magnetic flux has a flow direction and that's what creates the illusion of magnetic poles.
Magnetic field lines flowing next to each other in the same direction repel each other.
A wire carrying current creates a circular field around it. There are no "poles" in such a field,
but there is a flow direction.  Two wires carrying current in opposite directions in close proximity
will repel due to the same flow direction in the center between them.  Maximum force occurs at
the tangential point of maximum parallelism of the flux lines on the line between the wires.
Higher flux density also plays a role.  The repelling force is a function of flux density and
how parallel the flux lines are.  A coil experiences an axial attractive force and a radial
expansion (repelling) force on it's windings. Permanent magnets have the same forces
internally manifested as stresses on the molecular lattice structure.

I won't discuss other practical uses of this principle or products that I have in development.
I have a right to develop practical products and patent those practical embodiments just like anyone
else should I so choose.  Any of you on this forum including Butch have the same right.
So go and get something done.  Do the research work and make something
happen. I don't have all the good ideas.  There are lots of creative people out there.
Let your minds run wild with this concept.  It's amazing that this basic principle of magnetic fields
has been missed for so long.

One final point:
It is not my intention to argue these points or explain anything further.
I don't need to prove anything one way or another to anyone else.

Best regards to all,
Dave Squires

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: TinselKoala on October 02, 2008, 08:06:35 PM
Hi Dave
Great response, nicely informative. I'm glad you are sharing your experimental work.
I just have to point out, though, that it is a long-used and elementary model of "magnetic field lines" to consider them as spring-like, strongly in tension (attraction) along their (one dimensional) length, and strongly repulsive to each other sideways (that is, orthogonal to the tension, at each differentially small point along the (curving) length. So, while your results support this model or principle, I think it is incorrect to state that it has been "missed for so long."
Anyway, keep up the good work.
--TK
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this, reply from Butch
Post by: Butch on October 02, 2008, 09:40:54 PM
Hi Butch !

You just can't stop to amaze us with ammount of simple and more than obvious working ideas ...  :D
I'm jumping up and down right now.
Another well established working principle.
Many Many Thanks

This type of vector movement conversion can Help (it is NOW a must) and make Flynn and Hildebrand types of OU motors ALLWAYS workable.
In their setups (and in every other type of today motors) MOVING PARTs IS getting away from the cause of moving rendering LESS and LESS FORCE for movement.
Now Thanks to Butch We have allmost CONSTANT AMMOUNT OF FORCE on moving parts (are not changing distance from cause of moving) as long as we wan't it to act. making our setups predictable, more calculable...it is easier  now to push them to OU mode with certainty. This is very important in magnetism where distance is everything.

Dave Squires should quit the patent, join us and make it happen.

What to say ?
Butch Let THE FORCE be with YOU.

Wiz

Wiz,
Thank God I went public with this 9 years ago. I believe if I had not it would have ended up suppressed. When I worked with my father as a child using the Fanner Magnet to separate steel sheets I knew something was going on that just didn't add up. I presented the drawings as an overunity device 9 years ago on the web. I never abandon any of my ideas. I continue to research and develop my ideas (2500 of them) with the limited resources I have. I stopped going public a few months ago because several of my designs have been claimed by people. I was very niave to think no one would do that. I will go public with all ideas as in the past but after getting validation as inventor. I want to at least get credit for having come up with the idea. This technology must not end up controlled by one person or group as with oil. The world is in a mess and this technology needs to be in the public domain and available to everyone. If it is put on the market for high profit it will end up just like oil. Again, no one person or group should ever have control of this technology. Our group has done extensive testing and research on this and will keep the public updated and not suppress it. I have also open sourced this technology on Sterling Allen's Free Energy News and Directory. Everyone start building and testing, the world needs it now.
Thanks to everyone who has supported me in the past.
Butch LaFonte,
For The LaFonte Group

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: hartiberlin on October 02, 2008, 10:24:59 PM
Hi Dave S. and Butch,
great to hear that you both finally have come to the conclusion that
has put it out  9 years ago.

As Dave did not know this and Butch did put out so many designs,
which many of them lacking a good andwell explained descriptions, it is no wonder,
that is was ignored for so long.

As Dave realized this principle on his own and told me
put it out 9 years ago, I was baffled when I learned it later
from Dave and Butch, that it was already out.

he still wanted to get a patent about the basic idea and then he
learned from Butch, that it was already in the public domain.

Now it is good to see, that many people can use this and Dave still
can patent his own work for real machines based on it, so he at least
gets some reward for all his simulation work which he showed me in parts privately.

I think he has proven with his FEMM simulations that this principle is
THE BREAKTHROUGH in "cracking the magnetic code", how Dave called it
and is the most promising principle
of an overunity motor.

Too bad, Butch did not explain it better 9 years ago, so more people
would have understood it and already worked on this long time ago.

But anyway, now as it is out, this is the best "new"(old) magnet overunity motor
principle ! ;)

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gyulasun on October 03, 2008, 12:53:39 AM
Hi Butch and Dave,

I would like to know if there have been practical tests already performed on real setups of this principle and if so what COPs were attained?

Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 03, 2008, 01:29:24 AM
Hrmmm...

This is interesting...

I guess I've never seen this in action but I would like to get more information about it...

Wanna save the world nows your chance :P

Also I would love it if you would post an article explaining your device at my website.

Lets do it.

-infringer-

Title: Selfruning Magnet Motor
Post by: pese on October 03, 2008, 02:05:08 AM
THIS here shown so simpel.
Pese
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Kator01 on October 03, 2008, 02:14:54 AM
Hi all,

this is an interesting link to the new discoveries by syncopetra of the principle ( asymetrical-flux-density, and bending of flux-lines - Fresnells law of light-wave-bending also applies to magnetic flux-lines) at the crossing-border of two media) at work  here :

Follow through all 4 basic videos. it explains why the flux-lines are at the angle of 90 degrees.

This might also the explanation of the high efficiency of the old Freisschwinger-Speaker

@butch : in your setup posted here it would be good to place thin plastic washers with uneven surface between the iron-washers, so the flux-lines can exit more easily at the beginning of the seperastion-process. It has to do with overcoming adhesive forces.

Regards

Kator

Title: Orthogonal field repulsion effect
Post by: drsquires on October 03, 2008, 08:56:59 PM
This is in response to the idea that the principle had "not been missed for so long".
I didn't say that.  I said the "significance" of this effect had been missed, not the
effect itself.

No one ever noticed that this establishes a constant reluctance magnetic circuit
for the EM case and an equal cogging force situation for moving PM cases.

That means the actions of the two forces of attraction and repulsion can be isolated
because they are always orthogonal to each other.  Inductance is constant and
cogging forces or torques integrate to zero.  Go prove it to yourself if you are competent
to do so and have the resources.

Nobody else saw and proved these more subtle facts, not even Butch.  I did hundreds of simulations
of both cases with FEMM and have refined and optimized it.  I did bench tests to prove equal cogging
forces. As reader and forum member it's now your turn to independently verify these facts.
The applications are limitless.  Now get to it!

Given the simplicity and power of this effect I would think you people are creative enough to
come up with your own original designs and applications without any input from me or
anyone else.  Go get something done for a change.

Cheers,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on October 03, 2008, 09:20:24 PM
Hi Dave,
you are totally right.

LetÃ‚Â´s just go ahead all and build these motors.

Now as we know exactly the effect,let us just optimize it and
build OU motors this way.

Then it will be easy to have a selfrunning system
with a good generator coupled.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on October 03, 2008, 10:04:46 PM
Quote
...
Given the simplicity and power of this effect I would think you people are creative enough to
come up with your own original designs and applications without any input from me or
anyone else.  Go get something done for a change.
ROTLFMAO!

You guys are simply unbelivable... You fight about a discovery of a "magnetic effect", which is one of the many "strange" magnetic interactions, observed by anyone who ever played with magnets in the last 100+ years...

Just do the obvious, produce something which works in reality.

Quote
Go get something done for a change.
Title: Re: From Butch, need to get back to the shop
Post by: Butch on October 03, 2008, 10:44:59 PM
Hi guys,
When I used the magnetic fanner as a teenager helping my father in his warehouse I saw hundred pound steel plates separate as though they were made of Styrofoam. I knew at that time the magnitude of this effect. When making my first drawings for the web and building my first test fixtures I knew I was dealing with huge amounts of power. Anyone with half a brain could see that. It did not take simulations to see what was there. I presented it first as an overunity device and I was also told before that if I did myself and my family would be killed by the powers that be. Well, it's out there and we are still here. And should we not be here it's out there for the world to make use of. It can't be suppressed now. I think the person who told me that was just wanting to keep it for own use. Mark and I need to get back to our shops and do what we do best, build and test. We will be releasing video of early tests and more recent as time goes by. We will be releasing the videos to youtube and this list as well as our web page. We will also push to have the videos put on local and if possible national television.
Our time will be limited on the web due to shop work. We are so pleased that the technology has taken the path we have always said we would want it to take.
That being for all the world to have not just some greedy individual or group.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
For The LaFonte Group
Originators of the overunity Perpendicular Magnetics Motor
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 03, 2008, 11:18:24 PM
Anyone have some plans for a small test unit folks can start doing on there own to start confirming free power generation.

Time to stick it to em ...

Pese do you have the plans for rods designs??? And are they based off of this same concept I would like to start testing these designs and doing some home building I have quite a few DC servo motors here that start generating 12v at 56 rpms I believe these may work not 100% sure...

LETS DO IT ! HA!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 04, 2008, 12:41:34 AM
I've done the test with mild steel washers on a biro pen, it does generate quite noticable seperation force when moved between attracting neos.

Here's a rough sketch of the simplest engine I could think to build using this effect.

The crank radius (stroke) and placement of the mags (timing) would obviously need playing with.

The steel squares should just be shy of touching when they get closest to eachother.

Also the wheels would need weights added to balance out the neos.

edit:
the diagram says "facing neo magnets" obviously should read "attracting neo magnets"
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on October 04, 2008, 12:52:56 AM
Nice one Yucca, now we only need a real build  :P.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 04, 2008, 01:02:47 AM
Nice one Yucca, now we only need a real build  :P.

Thanks broli. Someone like Clanzer could knock one of these up with his eyes shut.

It'd take me ages. I have lots of plexiglass and some bearings out of a fan and coathangers for cranks and a hacksaw and sellotape, it would be like the great egg race :D
Post by: Butch on October 04, 2008, 05:49:53 AM
There are three separate parties working together to patent this technology in a way that will prevent any patent from being granted that uses the basic principle.
Don't believe anything you hear from people on the web about what you can and can not patent. Ask a large law firm that has been specialising in patent law for many years. People will tell you what you want to hear on the web to keep you on hold while they file for a patent in the back ground that will keep you from getting a patent on anything that works on the basic operating principle they have a patent on. I have had it pulled on me more than once. You would not believe what is going on at the moment with this technology. People that profess to have integrity, but in reality have no substance what so ever are trying to get total control of it. We have been working with a firm in Philadelphia for a good while to deal with this. This is a dirty business at times, but if there is one thing I have learned it is that no one gets away with anything in this life. This technology will be available to all. I have been assured of that.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
For The LaFonte Group
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 04, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
Hello Honoured OVERUNITY-FORUM-PROFILES !

Might I kindly briefly mention about the interesting proposed Method :

**
the Importance of how to specify the MaterialsÃ‚Â´s H-Magnetical-Properties

**
in the interesting proposed Method have been
included 2 various Methods-Concepts.....
though the attempted proposed MethodÃ‚Â´s "Self-Running"
do NOT as a total Functioning "benefit" from such
2 various Methods-Concepts

**
the Circumstance of possible "90degrees"-Forces-Actings
because of included H-permeabilities-materials.....
an Elder Methods-Concept as HERE :
the "going-by" "Ultra-magnetes-Rods" seemingly
might H-influence on the "Pistons-Iron-Bricks" asa
"Bricks".......and THAT Methods-Concept DOES FUNCTION in
an other Circumstance than attempted to would use in this
interesting Construction......

Might I kindly continue as soon as possible

WKR & have Yourself a nice Day and Weekend and Fruitfull
Science/Technics-Results !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 04, 2008, 02:55:38 PM
After looking at it I realised the sketch I posted above should have more than one pair on neos on it...

It would be better to have a few pairs of attracting neos to give a longer power stroke like this:
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 04, 2008, 04:49:11 PM
Newton2,

Can you state things more clearly?

So what you are saying is it will not work? Or what are you saying?

Yucca,

Seems you are the only fella in it for the people... The rest seem to want to squander there ideas in hopes of squandering money from the 2nd great depression and its inhabitants.

My question to you Yucca is how do you intend to keep this machine running? Constatly will it not simply level out and stop running after swinging back and forth a couple of times thus needing the intital start up energy as well.

The other question is this power stroke you talk of. Would it not be better to first find the proper timing and have magnets around the entire wheel or both wheels ....

How about having a stationary bar magnet on one side and only one wheel say on the right side with the round neos.

hrmmm this is interesting design to start with and expand on other ideas are in my head as well... but for now I will leave it at this ...

I would like to consider sticking to the design stage for a while before building because we can picture the workings of this thing mentally.

Thank You Yucca,

Your a real stand up guy man.

-infringer-
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 04, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
So is this a way we can keep say a pendulum swinging possibly?

Similar design right.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 05, 2008, 01:12:11 AM
@Yucca

Nice work!  8)

Jason
Title: Re: Selfruning Magnet Motor
Post by: 4Tesla on October 05, 2008, 01:39:19 AM
THIS here shown so simpel.
Pese

This has been tried before.. I don't think it is OU.. but who knows, maybe his is more efficient?
Edit: No, not OU.. he is using batteries.. if it was OU he would be able to have a closed loop without the batteries.

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 01:39:51 AM
Hi infringer.

Thanks for the kind words. :)

My sketch lacks counterweights opposite the magnets to balance the wheel.

Dave Squires in post#13 stated:
Quote
For the case where permanent magnets are used the force of attraction on the magnets is the same for collapsed and expanded states of the steel elements.  This means that any motion of the magnets resolves to a integrated average force of very close to zero. My bench tests showed that these cogging forces are equal to within 2% or better.

So as the attraction going in is damn near the same as the attraction going out then even without the extra kick the wheel would spin quite a few revolutions. The seperation force between the mild steel plates should then be enough of a kick for a good self runner.

Quote
this power stroke you talk of. Would it not be better to first find the proper timing and have magnets around the entire wheel or both wheels.

you only want the steel plates to exert seperation force when the crank is moving the piston up, then that seperation force will push up on the crank and add to the wheels speed.

I think the device would be easy to time to get a self runner but to optimise the power output would require fiddling with positioning and crank radius.

System equilibrum speed would only be limited by mechanical friction and eddy current losses in the mild steel plates which I think may be able to be minimised by using lots of thin sheets layed on their sides laminated together to make the steel squares.

Quote
How about having a stationary bar magnet on one side and only one wheel say on the right side with the round neos.

That may work but it would not be optimal because some flux would remain in the steel plates when the neo had moved away, ideally you wanÂ´t to change from full flux to no flux. But then it would be a much simpler design to build as you could have the plates hinged at the stationary magnet end and then you wouldnÂ´t need a piston and guide sleeve to keep them parallel, so your idea has some benefits.

Cheers, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on October 05, 2008, 01:42:10 AM
After looking at it I realised the sketch I posted above should have more than one pair on neos on it...

It would be better to have a few pairs of attracting neos to give a longer power stroke like this:

Yucca,
cause you would have to move the magnets away from the
iron piston parts and that needs too much energy.

Better stay with a coil, that you energize to move the iron parts into
repelling mode and turn this way the crank.

You can recycle back the energy put into the coil
via LC resonance, if you use a cap in parallel to the
coil and have the same resonance frequency of the LC tank
as the rotation frequency of the wheel.

So you donÂ´t need magnets with it.

Just a coil, cap and the iron piston parts.

As a parallel LC tank needs very low energy at its resonance
frequency this is the way to go.

If you then apply a load to the mechanical output,
the LC tank will not see the load and will not use
more input power.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 01:49:04 AM
So is this a way we can keep say a pendulum swinging possibly?

Similar design right.

Yep similar design, but you would probably need some kind of escapement mechanism for that because every time the mags swing past the plates the plates produce an up force, so with just a rigid crank it would add to the swing in one direction but in the other it would reduce it.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 01:59:25 AM
Yucca,
cause you would have to move the magnets away from the
iron piston parts and that needs too much energy.

Better stay with a coil, that you energize to move the iron parts into
repelling mode and turn this way the crank.

You can recycle back the energy put into the coil
via LC resonance, if you use a cap in parallel to the
coil and have the same resonance frequency of the LC tank
as the rotation frequency of the wheel.

So you donÂ´t need magnets with it.

Just a coil, cap and the iron piston parts.

As a parallel LC tank needs very low energy at its resonance
frequency this is the way to go.

If you then apply a load to the mechanical output,
the LC tank will not see the load and will not use
more input power.

Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,

Provided the perpendicular seperation force does get around Lenz then I think it would stand as good a chance of working as your proposed electronic method:

It gets the energy required to move away from the steel for free because the flywheel will get a speed up as the magnets are being attracted toward the steel. Dave squires noted that the in and out forces were symetrical plus or minus 2 percent. So provided the plate seperation force is enough to overcome friction it should self run.

Of course as you say a self runner with electromagnets and generator as load would work well too. Once I can make a testbed with bearings I will try both.

edit:
I hope the effect is real and there's not some gremlin that nobodies seen yet!

All the best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 02:04:35 AM
@Yucca

Nice work!  8)

Jason

Thanks Jason, itÂ´d be even nicer if I could build it. I went out this morning looking for technical lego, i was thinking of modyfying it to accept proper bearings, but the only stuff in my local toy shop was kids duplo like stuff :D I may have a go making it out of good quality plywood and hand tools but itÂ´ll take a few days.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 05, 2008, 04:31:19 AM
I am kind of lost but ...

Here is my idea using yucca's design...

Imagine if you will a clock

Now think of the operation of this desgin.

Now imagine if you will the wheels of this design are simply driven by 1 load of current say a rechargeable battery running a floppy drive motor so the wheels are gears and the shaft of the motor is modified to turn these gears (The two wheels)

Instead of having say 1 magnet on each wheel let us have 12 magnets on each wheel.

Instead of the magnets influencing 1 piston have them influence 12 pistons at each position on the clock we will have a seperate piston.

These pistons each drive there own wheel and if we wished to delve further these wheels could turn yet more pistons the vastness of this is only limited to your imagination. We could expand wheels to the heavens and create a network of power generation all off of this single fanner magnet load in my mind this principal would work.

http://www.energyinfringer.com/fanner-magnetic-engine-free-at-last-free-at-last-t182.html

Errr I dont get the design that stephan talks of using a cap and a coil hrmmm... I'm curious though...

Sounds interesting cap discharges to create electromagnet in coil? Then Coil fires piston for one cycle. The mechanical load then recharges the cap then the cap discharges again? Is this the deal?

Anyone care to eleaborate further on this idea... With the coils and the cap I know a picture may be a lot to ask but helpful.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 05, 2008, 05:46:16 AM
Since this is a freedom of ideas forum I'll jump in here and hopefully save some wasted effort of others.

The whole point of this concept seems to be - there are no sticky points  - with something using this concept.

If you have sticky points OR must switch things on and off at precise times then you are likely missing the heart of the concept.
The magnet must not see a change in polarity or total flux density at any point in the cycle.

I haven't figured any value for moving washers or other moving ferrous laminations and doubt there is any. I'm currently thinking more along the lines of the newer wind generator designs where the stator is in a ring formation and the rotor is a toroidal form of a horseshoe magnet (segmented, of course).

If I'm correct a generator of this type will always spin freely with no apparent sticky points even by hand no matter how much load is applied, the output will only be pulsating DC, unlike most other generators - it could never work in the reverse fashion as a motor and it will have some bad heat problems.

The best of luck to any that try to patent the idea or claim to be the originator. Something like this is bound to already be in the book somewhere.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 05, 2008, 06:10:43 AM
BEP,
You are correct about no sticky spots. You have a good grasp of the operating principle.
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on October 05, 2008, 06:30:34 AM
Oh, there are still sticky points, the wall, cogging, or whatever you want to name the 'conservation payback' which happens in a magneto-mechanical setups...

The 'Force' expanding those washers is the same which makes a centuries old experiment workable - iron fillings on a paper above a magnet. A simple and efficient method for visualisation of magnetic flux "lines"... The denser the flux, the more apparent lines (following a magnetic flux tangents). Or, a relaxation to the lowest possible (overall) potential energy. ..

The question is, could this magnetic effect produce "free work" (using the permanent magnets)?
It reminds me on a SMOT principle, where people only see a "gain" while the ball climbs up-hill ... Or, a fascinating magnetic levitation effect...

The cycling is what makes problems...
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: poynt99 on October 05, 2008, 06:41:31 AM
A thought that may be getting overlooked:

Seems all are looking only at static conditions. Butch's device works well as a form of field direction converter, from horizontal to vertical force.

But replace the PM's with a coil (as Dave has alluded to) and try pulsing them to move the washers up and down rapidly, and it becomes a whole different ball game. Hello Mr. Lenz. Those washers are like a shorted turn so if eddy currents flow in them, they're going to produce their own opposing field, and the movement is no longer "free".

Maybe one of Dave's "optimizations" was to change the washer into a broken ring, similar to a "C" clip. This will minimize flux and eddy currents and the resulting Lenz effects.

So before a "dynamic" application can be successful, more research and a proof of concept may be required. If someone has already done this, then great... Speak up please.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 05, 2008, 06:59:42 AM
Speak up indeed I second that opinon design phase needs some good mesure ...

I dunno I have only tested the washers with magnets on a dowel so far and it works perfectly...

Beyond that the guess work moves on down the line anyone care to share...

PESE seemed to show an interesting motor expiriment on youtube... I would also like to know how this here links with the rest of this thread but might wanna take this into consideration...

-infringer-
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on October 05, 2008, 09:48:01 AM
You could use this same idea to to make a gravity wheel.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 05, 2008, 11:15:54 AM
Hello Honoured OVERUNITY-FORUM-Profiles !

woulddiscuss about the proposed Methods-Idea(the Topic)....
and aligned and modified similar Methods-Ideas  !!

This modest Reply is worded for to intend to be
meant especially for some Other OU-Researchers also
having performed with the further-in-my-text
brierfly explained "OU-functions-Pointes"....
such Other OU-Researchers will quickly "identify" my
Wordings compared to such Other OU-researchersÂ´s
Own Respective  Researchings in similat OU-Methods....!!

Might I kindly briefly comment by these few Aspects-points :

*****
functional circumstance :
namely Electrical-Currents-Coil interacting per H-fluxes/E-H-Electrodynamics
with some permeabilities-objects-materials........
SUCH DOES FUNCTION ,
IF/WHEN THERE IS PROPER CARE FOR
BOTH THEORIES & INTENDED AIM OF OVERUNITY
IN DESIGNING FOR AN OU-ACTING.....!!

THOUGH IN CARE FOR EVALUATING PER THEORIES:
The H-magnetical-Field/Flux from the permeabilities-
Objects interacting "back"-on/interacting on
the Electrical-Coil per "Inducing" EMF in the
CoilÂ´s Turns, when the TOTAL H-Flux in the
Coil is ALTERED.....!!
(Thus then are NOT usable any every arbitrary Objects-Forms/
Sizes/Locations related to the Electrical Coil..
though rather some selected-for Situations of
Objects-sizes and the Way of moving such Objects
of permeabilities-properties)
YES....THe SELF-OSCILLATING PENDULUM of
such an Arrangement of H-magnetical-Fields-interactings
between Objects and Coil.....
WHAT of  FORCES ......WHAT of VELOCITY-VECTORS.....
WHAT of induced EMF back/into CoilÂ´s Turns are involved.....

Though there are "only" some "few" critically optimized Design-Layouts
of such Methods........
really delicate to get the few procents of OU per "Proces-running-through"
to "feed" into the System for to either make more "swinging" or
to "extract" to surroundings some "Energy" for quite other Purposes !!

At least to briefly summarize to :
to realize about the 3-DIM-appearing H-Fields in the all of
Situation.........
Classical Electro-Magnetics and Magneto-Statics might suffice for
good realizations of optimized Layouts........
and the Common Classical ElectroDynamics about
Inducing EMF in CoilÂ´s Turns per Altered H-flux in
the Effective CoilÂ´s "Inner-Areas" can fairly easy be
realized about....yes,even one of the most easily
calculated Situations alÃ¦so appears to be one of
the most "OU-giving" Layouts to "should" use.......
(The LayOut appears by a calculative Maths-Method
somehow like "supposing for nill H-flux-altering in the
the-Objects-Paths-for-to-have-nill-alterings-of-H-flux....etc,etc !!)

Might I kindly briefly add ,
that once-upon some 26 Years back in Time I demonstrated
both in Theories and practical Layouts BOTH to the Honoured ADMINISTRATORÂ´s
Permeabilities-Materials as being H-influenced from an Exterior Distant
other H-magnetical-Fierld !

And when Discussing about such Methods-Ideas as mentioned in The Topic
and in the associated continued-going-on-Replies,
THEN perhaps rather much of explanative Wordings have to be involved...
OF COURSE "BETTER" TO CLEARLY SKETCH.....
WELL-THEN,THOUGH THEN ALSO TO "GIVE-AWAY" ALL OF
THE RESEARCHINGS !!

------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Autumn !

And Thanks about Yourimportant idealistical Contributions to the Course of OU
per Your various many interesting important suggested Ideas & Methods &
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 03:02:01 PM
I am kind of lost but ...

Here is my idea using yucca's design...

Imagine if you will a clock

Now think of the operation of this desgin.

Now imagine if you will the wheels of this design are simply driven by 1 load of current say a rechargeable battery running a floppy drive motor so the wheels are gears and the shaft of the motor is modified to turn these gears (The two wheels)

Instead of having say 1 magnet on each wheel let us have 12 magnets on each wheel.

Instead of the magnets influencing 1 piston have them influence 12 pistons at each position on the clock we will have a seperate piston.

These pistons each drive there own wheel and if we wished to delve further these wheels could turn yet more pistons the vastness of this is only limited to your imagination. We could expand wheels to the heavens and create a network of power generation all off of this single fanner magnet load in my mind this principal would work.

http://www.energyinfringer.com/fanner-magnetic-engine-free-at-last-free-at-last-t182.html

Nice idea for maximum power out for a certain sized mechanical device. Maybe If you had different number of pistons to mags then the cogging would be more evened out, so say 12 mag pairs on wheels (30deg spacing) and 11 pistons around (32.7 deg spacing), then they would all be firing at slightly different times, this would mean you could get away with a smaller flywheel weight. Then all 11 pistons could be geared back to the central mag wheel using nice free nylon gears, that design would give good torque.

Errr I dont get the design that stephan talks of using a cap and a coil hrmmm... I'm curious though...

Sounds interesting cap discharges to create electromagnet in coil? Then Coil fires piston for one cycle. The mechanical load then recharges the cap then the cap discharges again? Is this the deal?

Anyone care to eleaborate further on this idea... With the coils and the cap I know a picture may be a lot to ask but helpful.

Stephans idea uses electronic timing to make the flux change in the steel plates, when the coil is energised the plates will seperate, when the coil is turned off the plates will relax and not exert seperation force anymore. So by timing the coils correctly you could have the plates drive a crank and flywheel.

The good thing about using moving permanent magnets as opposed to an electronic setup is that the wheel itself could be surrounded by coils to extract the free energy, the wheel is then a generator in its own right.

The good thing about electronic setup would be the ability to have a microcontroller to give dynamic tuning so that as more load was applied then the timing could be altered to optimise power output.

Using pulsed coils would still require permanent mag in a seperate generator unit to extract the free energy so in my mind it seems a slightly more complex build. But of course if the effect is real then both methods should work fine. :)
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: What_The_Flux on October 05, 2008, 06:37:40 PM
who cares who did what first? If the rings push out more energy than it takes to lower and raise the magnet then fun times for all. Everything else is just bullSh*t. To be honest this doesn't look any different than any other magnet jigga any of us have seen. Yes magnets store energy but really the only way to release that energy is by heat. Everything else is just transferring kinetic into whatever. Make love, not PMM's.

I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: Yucca on October 05, 2008, 07:21:04 PM
I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.

Dave Squires did note he witnessed and measured damn near symetrical in and out forces. My only fear at the moment is that the out force will be exerted over a greater distance as the steel is seperated and so it's attractiveness as a body as a whole may be greater and thus the work symmetry may not be quite as Dave is presuming.

I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

I have some good magnets, I just need to find the time and materials and I will try and build.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 05, 2008, 07:26:45 PM
Yeah what the flux is going on here muah...

I have tried the basic design and to me it seems as if it may work if careful desgin is put into play...

Think of it this way I suppose if the plates were heavy we could use a hydrolic piston to turn a turbine...

But it appears as if the more heave the plates the more magnetic interaction needed weather electromagnetic or not...

I'm interested in seeing how yucca's idea would work with my twist 1 load 12 pistons that means if the unit spins only at 5 rpms the pistons would spin at 60rpms? Is this not more output then input? IDK it sounds possible or at at the least worth looking at!

While I wish harti would share a nice photo with us where you at stephan are you working on another undisclosed project or busy with home life?
We all love it when you jump in and share your ideas and give us some words of wisdom with all your expiramental expirences.
This is open source aint it so lets party like an open source community!

I dont think it is coincidence that optimistic begins with the same letter as overunity.
This is the state of mind one must keep lose or win!

Failure to do so will result in missing a small key point in achiving our common goal. It is a lot more thought and work but no one said it was easy.

Take nothing for granted test and test again.

-infringer-

Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: What_The_Flux on October 05, 2008, 09:06:54 PM
I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.

As Yucca said, I also do find an attractive force as the washers enter the field, but then I feel a repulsive force as they go further towards the center, where the spreading effect is maximized.

I think before spending much time and dollars on a complete 'self-runner' prototype, I will try to obtain some force data using my dynamometer. Unfortunately my equipment and tool building is limited. I was really hoping someone with a real lab had already taken some measurements. It was stated earlier in this thread that the separating force was 'much greater' than the insertion force. This is what I think we need to verify. So far I don't see that degree of force. Anyone who can point me to such experiments, please post it here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 06, 2008, 02:22:18 PM
OK...After dreaming a little more about I've come up with a better idea, it's MUCH simpler to build.

You will notice in the diagram that the long arced stator steels are all sloping outward slightly, so the seperation force will cause the rotor steels to constantly move anticlockwise as they try and seperate from the stator steels.

I will try and build an initial prototype with one rotor set and one stator steel, I have gutted a ballraced computer fan and it has yielded a VERY free running rotating platform.

The diagram shows 5 rotor sets and 4 stator steels, this will greatly reduce cogging. Also the motor in the diagram would run anticlockwise (provided the effect yields cop>1).

(http://69.10.148.115/yucca/yucca_steel_fanner_motor_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 06, 2008, 03:11:02 PM
Hi Yucca !

last drawing might work but it is somewhat beyond or bellow original idea so there is big question mark.

First drawing you made has much chance to work.

but you need TWO "Lafonte HARMONICS" ( IIIII ), constructed on this principal:

while one magnet pair ENTERS first IIIII , the other magnet pair LEAVES other IIIII (at a same angle and distance)

that way net IN energy is only friction. OUTPUT is pure strenght of magnets. ;)

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 06, 2008, 03:43:24 PM
Hi Yucca !

last drawing might work but it is somewhat beyond or bellow original idea so there is big question mark.

First drawing you made has much chance to work.

but you need TWO "Lafonte HARMONICS" ( IIIII ), constructed on this principal:

while one magnet pair ENTERS first IIIII , the other magnet pair LEAVES other IIIII (at a same angle and distance)

that way net IN energy is only friction. OUTPUT is pure strenght of magnets. ;)

Wiz

Hi Wiz,

Thanks for perusing my design.

So are you saying that it would be better to have two stator steels and two rotor sets staggered so that when one set comes together the other set are going apart?

I think that the 5:4 ratio would work well because every interacting set will be slightly out of phase, so when you integrate the forces through one revolution you will get a smoother torque distribution. Also you would get less radial bearing loading and thus longer device lifetime.

You also state that this second design is not as optimal as the first, could you please tell me why you think that?

All the best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 06, 2008, 04:06:54 PM

- It's different in a way that here I can see possible "stuck points" unless very briliantly balanced (like in any only magnet setup)
(come to think of it looks like few series SMOTS rotating...but with difference, ORTHOGONAL plates - three flux paths !?!)...
now i stand corrected You Should definitely try this last design - this is something new.

- whit pure LaFonte "stretching" stators (I call it HARMONICS). I don't see stuck points

simple as that...no need to go further

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 06, 2008, 04:31:38 PM
and Yucca !

5:4 = (magnet pairs):(Lafonte "stertching" stators)...should definitely work - if properly designed

I made simmilar setup trying to replicate Francouver Interference disk Generator. this was wonderfull project but I stoped at version 1
which proved that cogging can be completely avoided although High flux from magnets was applied. as soon
as I removed only one magnet cogging was tremendous and rotor couldn't be moved by hand.
Talking about very strong forces balanced. Generation of el current was weak cause non overlaping area was to narrow so magnets
fluxes bended and closed on two near perm conductive areas....this thing allso should be implemented here and use wider area between
two magnetic pairs. flux doesn't go straight line it changes vektor if allowed.

easier to say than construct it...but can be done

wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 06, 2008, 06:04:19 PM
OK Wiz, I think I see what you are saying, thankyou.

We now only need to verify that using the steel fanner effect the seperation force of the steel plates exhibits a lenz violation due to its perpendicular nature. If it does then some of the seperation force of the steel is for free and system COP>1.

The easiest way to verify is to build a motor, I will now try and build and I hope for the magic to happen. :)

All the best, Yucca

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: flathunter on October 06, 2008, 07:53:34 PM
Thanks Yucca and Wiz for sharing your ideas!!!

I'll be searching frantically for anything that even slightly resembles the last diagram.  Got plenty of strong magnets, but i'll probably end up with the rest being far from whats involved in the diagrams...

still, you have to try eh  :)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 06, 2008, 08:10:36 PM
Thanks Yucca and Wiz for sharing your ideas!!!

I'll be searching frantically for anything that even slightly resembles the last diagram.  Got plenty of strong magnets, but i'll probably end up with the rest being far from whats involved in the diagrams...

still, you have to try eh  :)

Hi flathunter, Yep, you've gotta try. Welcome to OU and best of luck wouth your ventures ;)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 06, 2008, 09:02:13 PM
See, http://lafonte.fdp.nu
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: flathunter on October 06, 2008, 09:47:53 PM
any suggestions for where i get the steel strips?  Somewhere not on the net...im a cash only man.

some DIY ideas?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: tak22 on October 06, 2008, 10:23:12 PM
@all

I'm thinking that this type of magnetic action is more suited to use with a double acting
linear generator rather than convert to rotary motion.

Fix a centre plate and have the outer plates be the thrusting linear rotors on either side.

tak
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 07, 2008, 12:50:57 AM
Yucca looking at your design it would fight against itself...

If the influence is perpendicular and the push always seems to be up the magnets would follow the arcs..

..|
.(

So maybe an arc with a straight line might prove useful but only on 1 side...

I dunno maybe a pendulum may be the way to go as there is less friction with that then in a wheel after all we are in this to generate electricity not torque per say 1 unit over what is put into operation would be ideal...

I dunno though yucca what are your thoughts I would love to know them .

I wish there were a simple way to test this but I think your new unit may just remain stationary yucca.

But by all means if you have the means to test it please do hammer er out.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 07, 2008, 07:45:31 PM
Hi Yucca,

Remember that the magnets need to be connected by steal (like a horse shoe..on the outer sides of the magnets).. I don't see this in your designs.

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 07, 2008, 11:43:17 PM
any suggestions for where i get the steel strips?  Somewhere not on the net...im a cash only man.

some DIY ideas?

You should be able to find something at home depot or other DIY stores, sometimes you get flat steel brackets or connectors plates for joining wood with screws etc, the connector plates come in L and T shapes their for making frames up without the need for wood joints. A good tip is to take a magnet to the store with you to check that they are attracted. If you have the patience then you can use tin snips or strong scissors and cut up food tins (check with mag), then get the strips real flat and laminate them together and bind with electrical insulation tape, mind your fingers!

edit: you can also go to scrapyards or public refuse sites, mild steel is in loads of things that get thrown out like chassis of domestic electrical items etc.

yucca
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 07, 2008, 11:48:10 PM
Hi Yucca,

Remember that the magnets need to be connected by steal (like a horse shoe..on the outer sides of the magnets).. I don't see this in your designs.

Jason

hi Jason,

It is not needed but it does make the effect stronger because the flux accross the mags gets increased. IÂ´ve tried without horseshoe arrangement and it does work. But I agree the design should be modified to make proper horseshoe mags by putting nice steel Us around the magsets.

yucca
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 07, 2008, 11:55:57 PM
Yucca looking at your design it would fight against itself...

If the influence is perpendicular and the push always seems to be up the magnets would follow the arcs..

..|
.(

So maybe an arc with a straight line might prove useful but only on 1 side...

I dunno maybe a pendulum may be the way to go as there is less friction with that then in a wheel after all we are in this to generate electricity not torque per say 1 unit over what is put into operation would be ideal...

I dunno though yucca what are your thoughts I would love to know them .

I wish there were a simple way to test this but I think your new unit may just remain stationary yucca.

But by all means if you have the means to test it please do hammer er out.

hi infringer,

I think the system would always try to enlarge the gap between the rotor and stator steels, thus it would always turn anticlockwise because thatÂ´s the way it must turn for the gaps to widen. note the large steels are fixed to the baseboard by brackets, the small steels are fixed to the wheel.

I will finish build ASAP, I have family visiting so alot of my spare time is used up right now. I found a nice piece of good mild steel strip out of a junked halogen wall light, more than enough for one rotor and one stator, i have the wheel with bearing finished, i now just need to make wooden brackets and supports up and then glue it all together. Whatever the result i will video and post to youtube.

yucca
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: technobear on October 08, 2008, 12:30:31 AM
@all

I'm thinking that this type of magnetic action is more suited to use with a double acting
linear generator rather than convert to rotary motion.

Fix a centre plate and have the outer plates be the thrusting linear rotors on either side.

tak

Yeah, that was my thought too. Keep this real simple. I think Stefan's idea to provide the input magnetic field with a coil is a good one as it is then easy to measure the power you are putting in. Stick with the initial diagram - a pile of washers on a dowel. Attach a coil former to the topmost washer. Wind an output coil around it, far enough from the input coil so that it is not influenced by it. Place a magnet next to this output coil and see what you can get out of it. Try different coils and different magnets and see if the input power is influenced or if the motion of the washers increases/decreases.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: starcruiser on October 08, 2008, 04:17:18 PM
I was reviewing the designs and noted that the NEO magnets are arranged differently than with the  coil version (pole orientation). wouldn't this impact the effectiveness of the field imparting energy to the mild steel inductors? Just an observation.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: flathunter on October 08, 2008, 06:21:04 PM
Cheers for the advice Yucca  :)
Hope you get it rattling round endlessly on your first go.  Good luck!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, Can we drop by?
Post by: Butch on October 08, 2008, 10:06:03 PM
Yucca,
If you get it running could we come by your shop or home to take a look at it running.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: scotty1 on October 09, 2008, 11:12:43 AM
Hi all.
Thought I'd let you know of an older version of this effect...and also another effect.

"the soft iron core never held the magnets (Flux), it pushed them out.

To prove it put five or six thin iron strips on edge, slant just so they will not flop over, now approach the ends of those strips with a magnet and you will see they flop over, hold the strips a little loose by the ends.(approach with magnet) then they will spread out  ;)
I think this is enough to show that the soft iron never held those magnets (flux). It pushed them out."

"Set up the three-foot magnet so it can turn (steel rod on pivots, resting horizontal in Earth's field), put the coil with core in it (or the steel washers perhaps) in the U shape magnet, now approach the three-foot magnet's South Pole (from the west) with the U shape magnet's South Pole. As soon as the three-foot magnet begins to move you stop and mark the distance.

Take the coil away (or steel washers), approach again, as soon as the three-foot magnet begins to move away, then stop and mark the distance, then you will see how much strength the U shape magnet lost while you were pushing the coil in and halfway out, of the U shape magnet.

The U shape magnet was losing its strength up to the time it began to break away from the iron core, but during the time the U shape magnet broke away it regained its strength.

The breaking away from the iron core recharged the U shape magnet, then it became normal again and ready for the next start. During the recharging the new supply of magnets (flux) came from the air or the earth's magnetic field. Now we see how the magnetic currents are made by the U shape magnet."

"You already know that before the coil got in between the U shape magnet prongs, those little individual magnets (flux) were running out of the U shape magnet prongs in all directions, but as soon as the coil's core (steel washers perhaps) came in effective distance from the U shape magnet's prongs then these little individual magnets (flux) began to run in the core and coil and kept running until the core broke away from the U shape magnet prongs."

Ed Leedskalnin.... ;D  1946.
Brackets ( ) added by Scotty.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, Can we drop by?
Post by: Yucca on October 09, 2008, 12:59:51 PM
Yucca,
If you get it running could we come by your shop or home to take a look at it running.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

You sure can but my home/lab is in southern Spain.

If it does run (I hope it does!) it maybe better if I posted one to Stefan in Germany, I doubt I could get 1 watt out with collector coils so I wouldn't be eligible for the prize, but I think everyone on here would trust his appraisal and inter European parcel post is quite reasonable.

I'll be making a youtube vid of the results either way.

All the best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: rha8b on October 09, 2008, 01:59:30 PM
@infringer
You stated earlier that you had produced a replication of the fanner magnet setup using washers etc,
If possible, could you post a photo of this setup, I am interested in testing it for myself.

Thanks,
-rha8b
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 09, 2008, 04:06:19 PM
but you need TWO "Lafonte HARMONICS" ( IIIII ), constructed on this principal:

while one magnet pair ENTERS first IIIII , the other magnet pair LEAVES other IIIII (at a same angle and distance)

that way net IN energy is only friction. OUTPUT is pure strenght of magnets. ;)

Wiz

Is that so?
I haven't read everything in this thread entirely, but I got the impression that the main idea
was to use the seperation of the filaments to produce output... And that, in order to do that,
we need to have them seperate by magnetic means, then "fall together" again, then seperate
again, and so on...
Now if we have a magnet pair "enter" the position that causes the filaments to seperate, at the
same time that the previous magnet pair "exits" the position, would that not cancel out the
"fall together" action? If the filaments stay seperated because they constantly "see" a flux
from a magnet pair, then how exactly are we going to use the seperating action to produce
output at all?

I suspect I have missed something crucial somewhere...?
Please point out where I lost track, if anyone has spotted that point. ;)

I also missed how exactly we arrive at a 50:1 OU factor...
I'll read the thread again, but would really appreciate if any of you could briefly comment. :)

Regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 09, 2008, 05:29:56 PM
Is that so?
I haven't read everything in this thread entirely, but I got the impression that the main idea
was to use the seperation of the filaments to produce output... And that, in order to do that,
we need to have them seperate by magnetic means, then "fall together" again, then seperate
again, and so on...

Yes It Is So

Now if we have a magnet pair "enter" the position that causes the filaments to seperate, at the
same time that the previous magnet pair "exits" the OTHER position,

would that not cancel out the
"fall together" action? If the filaments stay seperated because they constantly "see" a flux
from a magnet pair, then how exactly are we going to use the seperating action to produce
output at all?

the way you missinterpreted it - it would ? (missing OTHER)

I suspect I have missed something crucial somewhere...? You missed WORDS, read carefully
Please point out where I lost track, if anyone has spotted that point. ;)

I also missed how exactly we arrive at a 50:1 OU factor... read my replay 58
If cogging is eliminated menas that device is megnetically balanced (angles of exits enters are same)
- only friction IN, Complete magnet strenght OUT.
I'll read the thread again, but would really appreciate if any of you could briefly comment. :)

Regards,
Koen
Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 10, 2008, 12:50:35 AM
Yucca,

I look forward to the results of your build weather good or bad a video says many words thank you for the hard work.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 09:08:18 AM
I also missed how exactly we arrive at a 50:1 OU factor... read my replay 58
If cogging is eliminated menas that device is megnetically balanced (angles of exits enters are same)
- only friction IN, Complete magnet strenght OUT.

You ramble, wizkycho.
Cogging has nothing to do wether a device is overunity or not. Can anyone please explain precisely how this device is supposed to be 50:1 overunity.
In my opinion there is nothing remarkable going on. The discs are naturally repelled from each other when a field is applied.
The magnetic field source can come from moving permanent magnets or static electromagnets but there is always a cost involved.
And there is nothing speaking for the cost being less when using discs compared to a ordinary solenoid with a center hole that is pushing/pulling a rod magnet when energized.
It is exactly the same principle. As long as no one can justify the 50:1 claim I will reject this as another wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 10:15:10 AM
Ergo !

Cogging represents NEGATIVE INERTIAL MASS-FORCE INCREASE - MUCH MUCH more ENERGY INPUT to unstuck,
start machine...once started vibrations are developed and other mechanicall problems that increse LOSSes to the point
machine is unuseable and wobble... althogh at first may seem that foreward attracction in one time will balance with reverse attraction in other point...
You can underestimate force of 1 magnet but do not underestimate forces of many - You just wan't be able to make workable machine
It is just simple practical advice , very simple to understand - no ramble about it.

To overcome that magnet attracctions to fanners needs to have BALANCED forces on shaft - NET attractions on shaft at least at most of the times zeroed if not allways or drastically reduced

ONE magnet pair leaves one fanner while OTHER magnet pair enters other fanner. both magnet pairs on same "shaft"
So no matter how many BALANCED magnet pairs we use 50 or 100 energy for friction input stays same - BUT output is twice
with 100 than with 50 - so You see how 50:1 - Maybe Dave Squires has other much better Idea , would love to hear it.
If not balanced more magnets you use more Inertial "PROBLEMS"

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 10:32:48 AM
And Ergo !

Cogging in this PM ONLY machines has much if not everything to do with OU.
DON'T MIX cogging in todays MOTORS - GENERATORS, cause vectors of attractions are different and in this PMM Only there is no
REPEL forces as such or as function of Lenz. Many differences.

You see that no matter what you put on output fanner it DOES NOT effect input
So please explain where do You see Cost in Input E? Or why this can not be OU ?

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 11:43:16 AM
No wizkycho, eliminating cogging has nothing do do with overunity.
This is where you don't understand physics.

An output from a motor or any other moving device is entirely created by torque and speed.
Just because you eliminate cogging you still have to add power to create torque.
My claim is that the input power is equal or higher than the output from a device using this new "dics" contraption"

If you can explain how great torque is created from this setup at none or very small power input then I might reconsider my stand.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 10, 2008, 12:21:34 PM
No wizkycho, eliminating cogging has nothing do do with overunity.
This is where you don't understand physics.

@Ergo,

If possible, please provide a link or reference where 'physics' shows a motor or generator that has no 'cogging' or 'sticky point'.

Thanks,

BEP
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 12:43:17 PM
@Ergo,
If possible, please provide a link or reference where 'physics' shows a motor or generator that has no 'cogging' or 'sticky point'.

My thesis was not to prove motors being free of cogging. It was just that it has nothing to do with overunity.
Any regular electric motor using skewed laminations have extremely low cogging.
Every electric motor using air coils without any steel lamination is absolutely free of cogging.

http://www.ampflow.com/ampflow_motors.htm
Quote:
The S28s have skewed armature laminations to eliminate the heavy "cogging" that results from using the extremely powerful neodymium magnets.

Here's an air coil motor with no cogging at all.
http://www.thingap.com/

Just google more on this and find out about it for yourself.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 01:23:45 PM

No wizkycho, eliminating cogging has nothing do do with overunity.
This is where you don't understand physics.

If Cogging (NdFeB magnet pair stucked on thick fanner) is present in this setup You need to generate Energy Peak/s.
If using 100 magnet pairs (why not) You will need 1kW (for at least second) Energy peak to unstuck the machine.
Now where would you get that ? but If do supply that E You get that material will start to bend - wobble, bearings streching - Losses that will prevent overunity to happen. Energy peak of that sort is thousends of times greater then when magnets are BALANCED.
Only E friction needs to be overcomed In every point of rotation. No need for massive and heavy rotors to integrate those energy peaks.
You don't understand Physics - and practically You sound like you never tried to unstuck NdFeB two magnets one from another
Try It and Imagine the Force to unstack 50 pairs. If you can not Imagine than Open Your Mind. This sounds only practical. but it is allso reason for OU. When working with that extreme short and very high energy peaks then parasitic Inertia comes into account and ITS still undefineable losses (by todays science), massive flywheels necceserry...but still...
no OU. cause complete energy is lost within (not observable) vibration (caused by Energy Peaking) in material !!! believe it.

An output from a motor or any other moving device is entirely created by torque and speed.
Just because you eliminate cogging you still have to add power to create torque.
My claim is that the input power is equal or higher than the output from a device using this new "dics" contraption"

If you can explain how great torque is created from this setup at none or very small power input then I might reconsider my stand.
If You still don't see BALANCING OU Try Hildebrand (magnetic transistor...)

wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 10, 2008, 01:27:43 PM
Ah, good. I knew I wasn't a complete idiot. ;)
So there's more people who want to hear exactly how we arrive at the 50:1 ratio, it seems.
I feel that Ergo is right in his comments regarding the cogging thing.
"How does this produce 50:1 output-to-input?" is answered by "well, we don't use cogs!"
and that is still no explanation. A cogless setup will still need to somehow produce
50 times more output energy than you put in, and the omission of cogs does not
magically make that so. The 50:1 must be in the cogless setup to begin with, it
doesn't result grom omitting the cogs, does it? If it did, then surely the entire
50:1 thing has more to do with some magic cogging trick than with magnetism...

So how does the seperation of filaments add to the rotation of the wheel?
I can imagine that we may be able to create a somewhat balanced situation where
the removal of the filaments from the magnetic field is comensated by the introduction
of a second field on the other end of the filaments, so that no additional 'drag'
is produced...

Oh, hold on, that's what you mean by "cogging", isn't it? You're not talking
about cogs at all, you're talking about a magnet rotor/stator assembly getting
"stuck" at the "sticky point"...? Is that it? Jeez... Ok, if that's what you mean,
then please forget my above rambling on cogs.
But I still want to know where you get your 50:1 ratio, because even in a completely
dragless rotor you should only get out what you get in, like 1:1...

And that still doesn't really explain why the wheel would move continuously...

I expect Wyzkycho to reply overly aggressive again.. seems to be his style... ;)

It's really simple, you just click on "quote" and whenever you want to insert a
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 10, 2008, 01:50:45 PM
@Ergo,

I'm not questioning your thesis. I'm doing research and terminology used is a problem. What is called cogging here should probably be called 'detent'.

What I'm looking for is a current example of a generator that has no detent effect (throughout the load curve) and zero torque ripple and no variation of torque regardless of  load.

I am very familiar with the motor types your references present. When the windings are shorted there is a definite resistance to rotating the shaft (yes, I'm referring to the ones without a brake).
In inductor terms - an inductor that has absolutely no CEMF (CEMF and BEMF are not the same, info for others, not you Ergo. I gather you understand the difference.)
To use terms common here, a Lenz-less generator or motor (not affected by Lenz's law). Most should agree such a thing does not exist? Anyone, if it does a patent number will be appreciated  :)

>>Edit...

Keon1 is correct..  Drag is the issue..

Yes, the amount of flux will not change whether it is routed through a compressed stack of washers (and naturally they will separate from each other) or when they are repelling each other - as long as the same amount of washers are there.

The question is - what use is this? Piston like action? Ramps? something else.....?

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 02:22:38 PM
This simple (not too good) animation will give You 50 to 1 = O to I !

pic explain:

cyan-greenesh -> ferromagnetic stack, quadratic shaped (in stack isolated one from another and sufficiently thin to dissable eddy currents)

blue--> magnet north
red --> magnet south

strenght of magnets must never satturate fanners

So E Input is just friction - E output is Full mechanicall strenght of magnet
"Multiply this setup" times you want and friction INPUT stays the same, mechanicall OUTPUT multyplies by magnet pair times.

Again
Energy Peak is lost or most of it (heat or break) within intramolecular excahnge in mass of material if too short (and here is short) no matter how Powerfull so even Flywheel can not help cogged setup. remmember that.

This is balanced and smooth

Wiz

this can be made rotational setup but have no slightest idea how to couple mechanics of "multiphase" fanners to one energy extraction point.

maybe my avatar is scarry. this is two dark templars (Protos from Starcraft game) combined in energy archon who when clicked says "we need energy"
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 02:37:47 PM
If You still don't see BALANCING OU Try Hildebrand (magnetic transistor...)
The Hilden-Brand device has no amplifying effect. It only reroutes the flux. Calling it a magnetic transistor is wrong.
And there is no proof of overunity when using the Hilden-Brand device in a motor. No matter what Jack himself tells us.
I have eperimented a lot with Jacks valve lately but I have not yet seen any overunity.
In all my experiments there was no net gain from the increased force. Simply because the magnet in the circuit shifted the B/H
curve of the iron and I had to reverse it back when rerouting the flux. This took the same amount of energy as the magnet added.

You sound like you never tried to unstuck NdFeB two magnets one from another
I have worked with the largest and most dangerous magnets in my day jobb. No hidden mysteries there.

Regarding the rest of your "explanation" it's still just rambling. Nothing you say makes any sense on how to obtain the 50:1 overunity.
Even if you eliminate the "sticky points" that you refer to as cogging, then you still have to add energy to create movement.
If not it will not rotate or move back and forth or what ever you desire. There is no free lunch here.

If you see something here I don't, then please enlighten me using good technical terms in a friendly calm explanation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have read you new post. Still no words on how to obtain the 50:1. Just a flashy GIF on movement.
How will you keep the input 50 times lower than output? You should know that balancing magnets towards each other cannot yield overunity.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 03:20:17 PM

The Hilden-Brand device has no amplifying effect. It only reroutes the flux. Calling it a magnetic transistor is wrong.
Permanent Magnet is SOURCE (infinite) of flux. small flux input - large flux change at output (ring a bell !) small current input -
large current change at output. how would you call it rerouter !?, no matter how we call it it has same effect on output AMPLIFICATION.
And there is no proof of overunity when using the Hilden-Brand device in a motor. No matter what Jack himself tells us.
well don't use it as motor use it HERE with Lafonte fanners - moving part (fanner) is allways close, unlike rotors...
I have eperimented a lot with Jacks valve lately but I have not yet seen any overunity.
In all my experiments there was no net gain from the increased force. Simply because the magnet in the circuit shifted the B/H
curve of the iron and I had to reverse it back when rerouting the flux. This took the same amount of energy as the magnet added.
I have worked with the largest and most dangerous magnets in my day jobb. No hidden mysteries there.
All other experiments are with positive results (only in this topic) here prove You Wrong - flux at output is amplified, oh yes it is !Coil and magnet develops many times (3 to 4) more force than only coil itself... it is TRUE, we only need best way too utilize it.
Please show us Your negative experiment.Material not adequate ? you have used too strong magnets parhaps? To many RPMS ?

Regarding the rest of your "explanation" it's still just rambling. Nothing you say makes any sense on how to obtain the 50:1 overunity.
Again
Energy Peak is lost or most of it (heat or break) within intramolecular excahnge in mass of material if too short Peak (and here is short) no matter how Powerfull that energy peak is. so even Flywheel can not help cogged setup.Even if you eliminate the "sticky points" that you refer to as cogging, then you still have to add energy to create movement.
but only for overcome friction, not additional losses of strongshortpeaked energy - inertia related.
If not it will not rotate or move back and forth or what ever you desire. There is no free lunch here.
Lots of Free Lunch here, see my prev animation.

If you see something here I don't, then please enlighten me using good technical terms in a friendly calm explanation.
We need only to find I think way to gather fanner forces to one energy extraction point...
I was somehow harsh cause I saw someone disccarding very legitimatly OU idea like something that cat brought in.

wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 03:22:53 PM
And Yes

When I think One can here Rhumble And Thumble and Rhoooam...

Wiz

------------------------------
still don't see it

can we agree that magnet can easily trevel from one fanner to other no stickys at all ? (I say Yes)
can we say that energy for moving (mechanicall friction) magnet is 1/10th of energy that fanner can develop ? (I say Yes - it is very possible to have that strong magnets and taht low friction )

Multiplay magnet pairs by five (make this gif longer, more fanners...). pure mechanicall friction stays 1/10th. mechanical energy of all fanners is now 5 times greater so 1/50 of force of magnets goes to friction. here is your 1/50 OU mode.

Please Ergo tell me that you see it now.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 04:00:17 PM
Can you make a better view/animation on the "free lunch" of the this contrapment? This GIF showed nothing vital.
It should help everybody to grasp what you are trying to tell us. Your english is very bad and it's difficult to follow your resoning.

Please do not mix colored sentences in this way of yours.
Keep your replies separated down below the questions or remarks you are answering.
That will make it a lot easier for us to render what you mean.

Last but most important. How is the power sequence of the motor looking?
When do you add energy, and how often, and for how long?
Don't forget that energizing a coil at on/off is not the same as being static energized.
It takes a lot more power to overcome the high inductance of an electromagnet at high speeds compared to static mode.
You need to raise the voltage, thus also the power, just to get the fast rise time of the coil current you desire in a motor.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 04:29:22 PM
Hi Ergo ! (for the last time)

you are again rude. why ? cause you are blind - it is your choice

Even much simpler english then mine is sufficient to describe to smart open minded how it works.

draw yourself better picture , You are the one that reffuses to understand. Like a child (they are ok, but You should now better)

protocol for good behaviour of Yours:
In the future You must say Why something is not working, and not just spit if you don't see it at first. After you truly see it
you must admitt that You were blind and at least say thanks - cause I made an effort to make You See.

Stay Ignorant ! If you wan't or say thanks I see it now. Don't waste My TIME by NOT addmitting YOU WERE WRONG.
other way you'll be more and more wrong.

Wizard
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 10, 2008, 04:30:43 PM
If a weight was added to the top of the washers (non-magnetic).
Would the free movement of the magnets passing by the washers become restricted because of the weight on the washers?

i.e. The resistance of the magnets traversal would be directly porportional to the weight on the washers...
The more weight, the more resistance for the magnet traversal.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 04:41:03 PM
If a weight was added to the top of the washers (non-magnetic).
Would the free movement of the magnets passing by the washers become restricted because of the weight on the washers?

i.e. The resistance of the magnets traversal would be directly porportional to the weight on the washers...
The more weight, the more resistance for the magnet traversal.

No, magnet pair doesn't "feel" anything (no reactance, no force) of what is happening with washers,
(but under condition washers are not oversatturated).

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 10, 2008, 04:52:02 PM
I understand that to be true with the (un-saturated-magnetic) washers.
Due to the fact that they have magnetic properties the flux lines want to short circuit through them;
so they move into position without too much resistance.

But if a non-magnetic weight was applied on top of the washers, what affect would it have on the magnet's path?

I am unable to verify at this time.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Raui on October 10, 2008, 05:03:42 PM
This concept is simply amazing. Its so logical that I am amazed that no one has thought of this before. I wish you luck with all your work Butch :)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 05:21:35 PM
you are again rude. why ? cause you are blind - it is your choice
I'm not rude. I'm just asking you over and over to explain the 50:1 ratio. So far you have not explained how this is obtained.

Even much simpler english then mine is sufficient to describe to smart open minded how it works.
draw yourself better picture , You are the one that reffuses to understand. Like a child (they are ok, but You should now better)
I cannot draw any conclusion on this contrapment until you finaly manage to explain the 50:1 ratio.
You clearly see something I don't, but you can't or won't explain this to me or for the rest of the folks here for that sake.

protocol for good behaviour of Yours:
In the future You must say Why something is not working, and not just spit if you don't see it at first.
I have never spitted on this device but I have questioned on how the 50:1 ratio is being obtained.
Somehow you refuse to answer how you calculate the 50:1 overunity from this device.

After you truly see it
you must admitt that You were blind and at least say thanks - cause I made an effort to make You See.
Stay Ignorant ! If you wan't or say thanks I see it now. Don't waste My TIME by NOT addmitting YOU WERE WRONG.
other way you'll be more and more wrong.
More and more I'm starting to feel you belong to the "belivers" that have had a revelation but you can't explain it for "non believers"
But as long as you belive there is hope.....in your world....so to speak. It's like a religion. You just have to believe....

If I'm wrong in my last statement, then for gods sake, please explain how this device is 50:1 overunity.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 05:39:58 PM
can we agree that magnet can easily trevel from one fanner to other no stickys at all ? (I say Yes)
can we say that energy for moving (mechanicall friction) magnet is 1/10th of energy that fanner can develop ? (I say Yes - it is very possible to have that strong magnets and taht low friction )

Multiplay magnet pairs by five (make this gif longer, more fanners...). pure mechanicall friction stays 1/10th. mechanical energy of all fanners is now 5 times greater so 1/50 of force of magnets goes to friction. here is your 1/50 OU mode.

Please Ergo tell me that you see it now.

Sorry, I missed this message from you, simply because of your odd expressions. Not being rude, I'm just telling you.

But I can tell you that your saying is not true for a fast moving motor.
The discs will not have the time to shift position simply due to sheer inhertia.
And if you make the discs to thin they not have the power to perform any useful work.
Least but not last, the mechanical solution to extract power from repelled fanners will consume any excess energy.

In my book there's still no free lunch here. But feel free to build it and surprise me. Hopefully I'm wrong in this matter.
You see, I want overunity as well. Just like anybody here. I'm not against it you know, but I have to question solutions that doesn't seem to add up.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 05:43:41 PM
I understand that to be true with the (un-saturated-magnetic) washers.
Due to the fact that they have magnetic properties the flux lines want to short circuit through them;
so they move into position without too much resistance.

But if a non-magnetic weight was applied on top of the washers, what affect would it have on the magnet's path?
I am unable to verify at this time.

If weight (or part of it) is inside magnet pair, material for weight must be non permeable (rel. mag. perm. 1 same as air) and non conducting
so it would not induce eddy currents.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: mscoffman on October 10, 2008, 05:49:19 PM
@All

Hi;

I began reading this thread only recently and it really look like you have
something impressive.

First, I wanted to say that to me;  recruitment -> implies overunity.

The external high remnance magnets, recruit magnetic domains in the lower
remnance steel washers. Since domains in these washers are being recruited
radially, these washers then in turn repel each other perpendicularly to the
radial field, and washers move apart.

Note, that at least some extra force created in the stack remains in the stack
of washers and that indicates force/energy gain. One should also note that
except for losses (like lenz law losses) the force trajectory should be the
same going out as coming in and therefore a machine that supports
two opposite phases (like a seesaw) should be able to null out force
imbalances if they prove a problem.

One can see that even in a stator field array of magnets that creates a "magnetic
wall", the rotor composed of one of these stacks should adapt to the magnetization
of wall rather than fight it as there is no permanent magnet there, so I think sticky
points because of "walls" will be minimal.

I propose that a really good way to test this would be to place one of these expanding
stacks inside a toy balloon and form a bellows volumetric displacement pump. This could
then, as broli proposes, form a gravity wheel by transferring a working fluid between one
reservoir and the next on opposite arms of the machine.

One would propose to first use a local electromagnet to power the antisymmetric
volumetric stacks and get the wheel timing optimal then later switch to PM's to
do same operations.  Lenz law losses seem could be reduced by slower RPM
of the wheel movement if necessary.

I feel that this is a better proposal then trying to build a mechanical machine
straight away as one must get "mechanical impedance matching" correct
the first time, or else the method may be blamed.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 06:02:50 PM
Ergo Ergo Er go go go go ......!

Progression Session 1 - or help THA MAN to come to it's senses.

look at the animation and answer honestly (not religiously) to Me and Yourself this two questions.

can You agree that magnet pair can easily trevel from one fanner to other no stickys at all and there is no resistance from fanners no matter the weight applied ?

can You say that energy for moving (mechanicall friction) magnet can be (good construction) only 1/10th of energy that fanner can develop ?

If answer is NO think again or say why do not You think so, fair enough ?

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Topguner on October 10, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
If I'm wrong in my last statement, then for gods sake, please explain how this device is 50:1 overunity.

Ask Stefan, he is the one that posted the 50:1 overunity claim.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 10, 2008, 06:14:14 PM
Sorry, I missed this message from you, simply because of your odd expressions. Not being rude, I'm just telling you.

But I can tell you that your saying is not true for a fast moving motor.
The discs will not have the time to shift position simply due to sheer inhertia.
And if you make the discs to thin they not have the power to perform any useful work.
Least but not last, the mechanical solution to extract power from repelled fanners will consume any excess energy.

In my book there's still no free lunch here. But feel free to build it and surprise me. Hopefully I'm wrong in this matter.
You see, I want overunity as well. Just like anybody here. I'm not against it you know, but I have to question solutions that doesn't seem to add up.

sorry... Now I didn't see your post

who said it has to be fast it has to do complete MECH work on given load(weight),and then move on
Only with two fanners and one magnet pair there is allmost 1input:10output for OU
so lot's of free lunch allredy with linear setup.

I agree we need something efficient to concentrate multiphased fanners...

Wiz

So You Saw but can not see it through yet
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 10, 2008, 06:42:35 PM
Why don't you build a straight track of washers on a stick.
Along these washers you can easily move two magnets being firmly mounted to keep them from getting stuck to the washers.
It would be enough with twenty piles of washers.

Then test how easily you can move the magnets along the track. Try at different speeds.
Then place some heavy lead or perhaps a non metalic compound on top of each pile to simulate work being extracted. It must be really heavy.
Move the magnets along the track again at variuos speeds and feel the difference.
If there is no force difference I find it very interesting. Then you might have something here.
Until then I rest my case.

Title: Orthogonal magnetic force
Post by: drsquires on October 10, 2008, 09:29:26 PM
This is in reply to the suggestion that this effect "gets around Lenz".  It doesn't really "get around it".
Lenz's law applies to changing magnetic fields.  If the field in an EM coil is unchanged by the motion
of the steel elements there can be no Lenz back reaction.  The Lenz reaction is an inertial reaction
or resistance to a changing field.  If there is no change, there is no Lenz back reaction.  The evidence for this
will be found in the fact that the coil inductance is unchanged over the full range of allowable motion
for the orthogonal solenoid structure.

FEMM simulation shows no change in inductance out to the 4th significant digit.
All other systems of solenoids or motors exhibit a change in inductance due to the changing
reluctance of the magnetic circuit for a given excitation level of current.

If the current is held constant and the moving parts of the system are moved the inductance changes.
This changes the magnetic field causing a Lenz inertial back reaction resistance to the change.

So the more accurate description is that there is no Lenz reaction because there is no change in
inductance.  There is nothing to cause a Lenz reaction.  It isn't "gotten around".  It just isn't there
because the magnetic circuit sees no change in reluctance or inductance.

Regards,
Dave Squires
Title: 50:1 OU claim
Post by: drsquires on October 10, 2008, 09:42:30 PM
"You ramble, wizkycho.
Cogging has nothing to do wether a device is overunity or not. Can anyone please explain precisely how this device is supposed to be 50:1 overunity.
In my opinion there is nothing remarkable going on. The discs are naturally repelled from each other when a field is applied.
The magnetic field source can come from moving permanent magnets or static electromagnets but there is always a cost involved.
And there is nothing speaking for the cost being less when using discs compared to a ordinary solenoid with a center hole that is pushing/pulling a rod magnet when energized.
It is exactly the same principle. As long as no one can justify the 50:1 claim I will reject this as another wishful thinking."

Well, it's not wishful thinking.  It's just a bit on the high side.
The range would be in the 20:1 to 50:1 range for an EM version using coil excitation.

Here is how you get there...

1. The inductance is unchanged in the coil regardless of what the expansion elements do.
2. This allows reactive power excitation at some resonant frequency.
3. Losses will be copper resistive losses, iron hysteresis losses, friction, and windage.
4. IF those losses are managed well and kept in the 2% to 5% range then you get the case where the
resonant drive circuit only need make up for those losses.  So you have a case where the OUT/IN
ratio can be between 50:1 and 20:1.

So one could conceivably have an efficiency or COP in that range.  This means converting reactive power
to real power with very little loss.  Do it badly and you could easily be under 10:1 COP or less.

Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, simple demostration
Post by: Butch on October 10, 2008, 09:48:21 PM
This concept is simply amazing. Its so logical that I am amazed that no one has thought of this before. I wish you luck with all your work Butch :)

Raui,
Working with fanner magnets in moving sheet steel as a teenager was my inspiration. We are putting together a super simple test device to make overunity obvious to everyone. Anyone can put it together from radio shack parts for a few dollars. We are holding release of full scale devices for a short period.
Will post super simple proof of overunity device.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 10, 2008, 09:52:53 PM
For those who didn't "get it" in my last post...you get the COP=50  and 20 values this way
50=1/0.02
and
20 = 1/0.05

I didn't show these simple calculations and should have...sorry.
This is because it's assumed that 95% to 98% of the energy is returned to the resonant drive circuit.

I hope this clears things up on how you get these high COP numbers.
These numbers are perfectly realistic for a well designed resonant drive circuit.

Cheers,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 10, 2008, 10:00:24 PM
Why don't you build a straight track of washers on a stick.
Along these washers you can easily move two magnets being firmly mounted to keep them from getting stuck to the washers.
It would be enough with twenty piles of washers.

Then test how easily you can move the magnets along the track. Try at different speeds.
Then place some heavy lead or perhaps a non metalic compound on top of each pile to simulate work being extracted. It must be really heavy.
Move the magnets along the track again at variuos speeds and feel the difference.
If there is no force difference I find it very interesting. Then you might have something here.
Until then I rest my case.

Hi Ergo,

Good idea to test for free work in the moving permanent mag version.

IÂ´ve thought about just how to do it so that you can measure work out of the seperation and also check for work taken from the system overall, hereÂ´s my idea based on your initial concept:

Build a one degree of freedom swinging pendulum:
A rigid stick with a bearing at the top and an upside down U of steel attached to the swinging end. On each inside face of the U place a magnet so the 2 magnets are in attraction.

On the table directly beneath the pivot point secure a smooth dowel with a mild steel washer array on it. Place a liftable weight on the top washer. The weight should be configured with a ratchet so that once lifted it stays up and the washers are allowed to fall back. This enables you to extract energy (potential energy of lifted weight) from the  system.

Now swing the pendulum by lifting to an exact height and letting go. 2 types of swings should be conducted:

Swing type 1:
The washers should all be taped together to stop them seperating.

Swing type 2:
The tape should be removed and the washers allowed to raise the ratcheted weight.

If after each swing type the the pendulum swung out the other side just as far then the perpendicular work done by the seperating washers would appear to be for free.

Note that if it doesnÂ´t swing out as far then COP could still be over unity but one would need to calculate work in and work out by taking height and weight measurements of pendulum and lifted weight and calculating the input and output potential energies involved.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 10, 2008, 10:35:04 PM
When I place metal washers between 2 very strong neo. magnets I get the washers separating,
but it takes a lot less energy to compress the washers then it would take to pull the two neo's apart.
I don't understand were this extra energy is supposed to reside?
Unless two of these setups can be created so a resonance effect takes place and the
demagnetization of one coil helps magnetize the other. (Using back emf)

I was looking at a 2 cylinder electromagnetic motor concept.
Energize one horseshoe magnet while de-energizing the other.
Like a teeter toter. While you raise one side it helps lower the other quicker then gravity.
Now if something like this can work so very little energy is lost between the 2 units then OU may be possible.
Just input an initial charge to get the system running and then resonance keeps it going with little loss.
The small amount of loss can be restored from the engine running some type of generator.

But the energy of separation between the metal plates is much less then the magnetic pull of the electromagnets.
The magnets I used could easily lift a kitchen chair off the floor but compressing the washers
takes a lot less weight then that of a kitchen chair.
A good experiment would be to build an electromagnetic version of this
and place weights on it to see how much it takes to compress the metal plates to say half there distance apart.
Then record how much wattage it takes to support that amount of weight.
Should be an easy setup for most following this forum.
Then try building 2 of these units and see if you can harness the back emf of one to energize the other while the magnetic field collapses.
Keep the same weight on each unit as proof of output.
If this works we have a possible new energy source.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 10, 2008, 11:21:14 PM
When I place metal washers between 2 very strong neo. magnets I get the washers separating,
but it takes a lot less energy to compress the washers then it would take to pull the two neo's apart.
I don't understand were this extra energy is supposed to reside?

Hi AbbaRue,

If you pull the magnets apart then the energy taken to do the pulling can be got back because the magnets can then be allowed to go back together and that could be fed back into the system.

Imagine two springy plastic rulers stood on end and fixed to the tabletop using brackets. At the top of each ruler is a flat magnet, each magnet in attraction. Now imagine that you pull the mags apart and let go, the whole system will oscillate like a tuning fork. Only damped by air friction and eddy currents in the mags, the system will oscillate and come to rest following a normal decay curve.

Now if the effect is real then the rulers will decay at the same rate even if you load the washers as they seperate and fall back together (i.e. the magnets do not see the loading of the seperating steel) . In theory the energy obtained from the seperating steel could be fed back to mantain the rulers oscillations and it would self run.

edit:
Obviously rulers would not be ideal, too much air resistance, better to use 2 piano wire pairs instead.

Best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 11, 2008, 06:24:45 AM
Are you using permanent magnets or electromagnets?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 11, 2008, 09:43:43 AM
Hi Yucca and all !

...My simple animation revealed following

In a beggining of this topic I gave an advice that is not neccessery to follow in this setup (mentioning Francouer Interference Disk Gen).
It is not neccessery to have large space from first magnet pair to next but just a width of one fanner stack (means every other stack is overlapped with magnet pair). cause complete flux of one magnet pair will go directly through closest fanner stack closing on magnet. Two fanner stacks should be separated by an air gap 1mm wide and that is sufficient (and not causing sticky spots), to be sure flux wan't "touch" neighbour stacks - it will rather go through currently overlaping stuck cause it is never over saturation knee. Balancing is now automatic no need to pay additional attention on angles entering - exiting (1mm air gap will not cause drag back or cogg cause magnet flux can bend that much).
Fanner stacks must be quadratic but with slightly rounded corners. Otherwise, tricky balancing should be done.

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 11, 2008, 09:58:38 AM
Hi AbbaRue,

If you pull the magnets apart then the energy taken to do the pulling can be got back because the magnets can then be allowed to go back together and that could be fed back into the system.

Imagine two springy plastic rulers stood on end and fixed to the tabletop using brackets. At the top of each ruler is a flat magnet, each magnet in attraction. Now imagine that you pull the mags apart and let go, the whole system will oscillate like a tuning fork. Only damped by air friction and eddy currents in the mags, the system will oscillate and come to rest following a normal decay curve.

Now if the effect is real then the rulers will decay at the same rate even if you load the washers as they seperate and fall back together (i.e. the magnets do not see the loading of the seperating steel) . In theory the energy obtained from the seperating steel could be fed back to mantain the rulers oscillations and it would self run.

edit:
Obviously rulers would not be ideal, too much air resistance, better to use 2 piano wire pairs instead.

Best, Yucca.

Although I can allmost see what you propose, and its briliant - that way We would be able to mount linear generator (magnet in a coil) and have supersimple infinite Energy source...but should keep up the oscilations.
Can You make some picture...

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 11, 2008, 10:36:42 AM
Are you using permanent magnets or electromagnets?

I'm only using permanent mags at the moment and all my ideas on this thread are for permanent mags.

I do want to start doing this stuff with electromags and signal generator. I am waiting for some P-Channel FETs in the mail to start with that.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 11, 2008, 10:40:40 AM
Although I can allmost see what you propose, and its briliant - that way We would be able to mount linear generator (magnet in a coil) and have supersimple infinite Energy source...but should keep up the oscilations.
Can You make some picture...

Wiz

I will try and make an animated GIF tonight Wiz.

I think I have also now worked out the simple lever arrangement to feedback the seperation force and to keep the mags in oscillation.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 11, 2008, 09:28:36 PM
Cool Yucca.. can't wait to see your animation!  I believe that it has to use permanent magnets as an electromagnet takes too much energy.

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 11, 2008, 10:09:33 PM
Cool Yucca.. can't wait to see your animation!  I believe that it has to use permanent magnets as an electromagnet takes too much energy.

Jason

Hi 4Tesla,

I've been out this evening for meal (chinese buffet... bloated! ;D) with my family and relatives so no GIF tonight, sorry.

You're right the electromagnets do take energy, but... the cool thing you can do with electromags is harvest some of that energy back, when you charge the electromag up the energy you put in goes into establishing a flux running through the core of the coil, then when you turn it off that flux collapses and induces whats called a Back EMF (electromotive force). that BEMF can then be captured in a storage capacitor and the energy can then be re-used to fire it next time.

With an efficient circuit setup it means you only need to put in a very small bit of extra charge each pulse to keep the magnet pulsing at full strength.

It's very similar to storing energy in a mechanical system using elastic components or inertia which only loses energy to friction. In electromag you lose energy to circuit resistance, it's very similar.

I think if the effect is as it's described then mechanical or electrical will both work OK.

Let's just hope that the effect does hoodwink Lenz, then we're all laughing! :D

Best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: maw2432 on October 11, 2008, 10:28:14 PM
Great discussion going on here.
I thought of using the parts from one of those shake flashlights to do some testing.
You can get one on EBay for under 8.00 US.

Bill

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 11, 2008, 10:29:00 PM
Hi 4Tesla,

I've been out this evening for meal (chinese buffet... bloated! ;D) with my family and relatives so no GIF tonight, sorry.

You're right the electromagnets do take energy, but... the cool thing you can do with electromags is harvest some of that energy back, when you charge the electromag up the energy you put in goes into establishing a flux running through the core of the coil, then when you turn it off that flux collapses and induces whats called a Back EMF (electromotive force). that BEMF can then be captured in a storage capacitor and the energy can then be re-used to fire it next time.

With an efficient circuit setup it means you only need to put in a very small bit of extra charge each pulse to keep the magnet pulsing at full strength.

It's very similar to storing momentum in a mechanical system using elastic components or inertia which only loses energy to friction. In electromag you lose energy to circuit resistance, it's very similar.

I think if the effect is as it's described then mechanical or electrical will both work OK.

Let's just hope that the effect does hoodwink Lenz, then we're all laughing! :D

Best, Yucca.

What your describing reminds me of the Micro TPU.  Have you followed that thread?.. kind of a cool little circuit and I built it and it works for 10 to 120 minutes depending on the components used.  Members, including myself, tried to alter the circuit to make it better, but the original circuit works best.  This circuit is one of the most efficient circuits ever, but not OU.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3599.0

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 11, 2008, 10:31:42 PM
Great discussion going on here.
I thought of using the parts from one of those shake flashlights to do some testing.
You can get one on EBay for under 8.00 US.

Bill

Good Idea!  That would be a good way to collect the energy.. have the piston be a magnet!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 11, 2008, 10:37:06 PM
What your describing reminds me of the Micro TPU.  Have you followed that thread?.. kind of a cool little circuit and I built it and it works for 10 to 120 minutes depending on the components used.  Members, including myself, tried to alter the circuit to make it better, but the original circuit works best.  This circuit is one of the most efficient circuits ever, but not OU.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3599.0

Jason

Yeah it's exactly like that, I've not built one of those but I've read the thread. Would be cool to make a miniature electromechanical part that plugs into one of those existing circuilts so this effect can take it over unity. :)

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 12, 2008, 08:38:55 AM
The animation is of using permanent magnets?  The TPU idea is cool, but for this application (separating plates) I think it has to be with permanent magnets as the power it would take to create a strong magnetic field to separate the plates or washers would be more than could be generated.  Looking forward to seeing your latest designs and animation.

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 12, 2008, 11:18:54 AM
I have been able to confirm the basic "Separation" effect using Ferrite beads instead of washers.
I slipped 4 beads onto a carbon fiber rod and brought the rod between two attracting ceramic magnets, 1/2 inch gap.
The bead stack expanded from 19mm to 28mm when brought between the magnets.

The beads I used fit the rod perfectly, slid very easily with virtually no wiggle.  I won't be able to test energy ratios
or  if "OU" until I build some kind of real rig.

Parts Used
4 Ferrite beads Part #FB-43-2401 from Amidon Associates CA USA
1 Carbon Fiber Rod .198" (4.98mm)  X 24" Midwest Products
2 Ceramic Magnets 47x22x9 mm  Home Depot
2 small 1/4 inch thick pieces of acrylic used as magnet spacer for clamp
1 Small C-clamp 3" inner jaw, cast iron
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 12, 2008, 07:10:05 PM
8) Thanks for sharing this.. very cool!

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AlgoryThm on October 12, 2008, 08:28:10 PM
You guys are unbelievable! I'm reading this forum for a long time now and the only thing I have to say is a big "CONGRATULATIONS" to everybody that tried hard to offer free energy to the world! Also, the latest news about OU are astonishing! 50:1??!! Keep up the good work, I wish you the best!
Title: Re: Super simple test rig for overunity all can build
Post by: Butch on October 13, 2008, 03:15:29 AM
One drawing below is phase one, the other, phase two. In phase one allow the horseshoe magnet to center along side the steel elements and keep the elements in the locked position. Slide the counter weight in very small increments out along the lever bar till the horseshoe magnet breaks free. Mark the position of the counter weight.
Now as shown in phase two, do the exact same thing except allow the moving elements to separate first before moving the counter weight.
Now compare and see if it took the same amount of force to separate the horseshoe magnet when the washers are together and when they are separated.
Is the force needed more when the elements are separated? Is the force less when the elements are separated? Is the force needed the same in both phase one and phase two?
Record the distance moved by the horseshoe magnet to the break away point in both phases.
Remember the plastic washers had work done on them when they were moved by the separating elements.
Repeat the test five times.
If the work needed in phase one and two to remove the horseshoe magnet was the same or the work done in phase two removing the horse magnet was less, then the system is overunity.
There are many other points to consider here, but this is a good point to start at to see if there is clear, significant overunity going on.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 13, 2008, 03:58:01 AM
Thanks Butch,
I was thinking about making a pendulum rig, and your drawing gives me some ideas.
One of my ideas was to have the steel elements push a lever, kind of like a person pushing a kid on a swing, the "pushing hands" would be a repelling magnet. Problem is, somtimes these types of systems can get stuck. Have you built anything like this yourself?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 13, 2008, 05:05:10 AM
I have been able to confirm the basic "Separation" effect using Ferrite beads instead of washers.
I slipped 4 beads onto a carbon fiber rod and brought the rod between two attracting ceramic magnets, 1/2 inch gap.
The bead stack expanded from 19mm to 28mm when brought between the magnets.

The beads I used fit the rod perfectly, slid very easily with virtually no wiggle.  I won't be able to test energy ratios
or  if "OU" until I build some kind of real rig.

Parts Used
4 Ferrite beads Part #FB-43-2401 from Amidon Associates CA USA
1 Carbon Fiber Rod .198" (4.98mm)  X 24" Midwest Products
2 Ceramic Magnets 47x22x9 mm  Home Depot
2 small 1/4 inch thick pieces of acrylic used as magnet spacer for clamp
1 Small C-clamp 3" inner jaw, cast iron

Can you tell me with the beads separated.. how strong is the force that spreads them apart?  Can you push them down?

Thanks,
Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 13, 2008, 06:23:51 AM
Quote
Can you tell me with the beads separated.. how strong is the force that spreads them apart?  Can you push them down?

Thanks,
Jason

The beads can be pushed down with your baby finger. But as you can see in the photo, there must be at least enough force to lift three beads against gravity. I will see if I can measure the actual force it takes to force them together.  To do this properly, I will need to build a small test rig, which will take a few more days... Perhaps others here can shed some light on what core materials "separate" best. For some of my other projects, Metglas can't be beat, not cheap or easy to get though.

P.S.  For some reason, Amidon dosn't list weight or mass on their spec sheets, but here is their web site:  https://www.amidoncorp.com
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 13, 2008, 10:02:28 AM

The beads can be pushed down with your baby finger. But as you can see in the photo, there must be at least enough force to lift three beads against gravity. I will see if I can measure the actual force it takes to force them together.  To do this properly, I will need to build a small test rig, which will take a few more days... Perhaps others here can shed some light on what core materials "separate" best. For some of my other projects, Metglas can't be beat, not cheap or easy to get though.

P.S.  For some reason, Amidon dosn't list weight or mass on their spec sheets, but here is their web site:  https://www.amidoncorp.com

Thanks!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 13, 2008, 01:39:26 PM
I did a test using neo mags with steel washers (of which may have become saturated in the strong magnetic field).  My test was just to see how much force there was between the washers.  To my suprise, there was very little.  The atrraction force of the neo's to the washers was much greater than the seperation force between the washers.  How does one intend to seperate the magnets from the washers if the attraction is so much greater?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 13, 2008, 01:55:11 PM
I did a test using neo mags with steel washers (of which may have become saturated in the strong magnetic field).  My test was just to see how much force there was between the washers.  To my suprise, there was very little.  The atrraction force of the neo's to the washers was much greater than the seperation force between the washers.  How does one intend to seperate the magnets from the washers if the attraction is so much greater?

Do not worry about the attraction force of the mags to the washers, yes it is alot greater than the washer seperation force but it does not matter, the magnets can be attached to a rigid frame so the force will not have an effect. Or if you do want to seperate the mags in a cyclic manner then the attraction forces will be symetrical and thus sum to zero over a complete in/out cycle. The small seperation force of the washers may be for free though.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 13, 2008, 07:10:38 PM
Pay attention to "Yucca".
He understands how this principle works.
He has it right. Good job Yucca.  Keep up the good work.

You guys are getting on the right track to fully understanding this principle
and it's significance.  FYI....I did careful measurements some time ago
on the forces for collapsed and expanded states on 1" diameter laminated
steel disks.  I verified that for the setup used the forces were equal to within
2%, which could be measurement error.  The expansion force measured was about 7.5lbs
in the collapsed state for 4 element stack and a "throw" of about one inch.
The magnets used were N45 NdFeB 1/4" thick with a steel flux return path for
maximum flux density in the gap.  The steel disks were M19 non-grain oriented
and the gap between the magnets was about   1.5 inch with the disks in between.
I used a digital scale to measure the force generated by the torque and then
factored in the change in moment arm or lever arm length.  Doing the math
gave nearly equal force (within 2%) for collapsed and expanded states.
This was a measure of the "cogging" forces to prove that they would integrate
to nearly zero since they would be essentially equal.  The torques will also
integrate to zero for entry and exit cogging.  The reason is that even though
the moment arm changes the angle of rotation also changes to keep the total
integrated torque equal for entry and exit cases.  Hence, the torques will also
integrate to a zero average leaving the expansion force to keep a motor running.
The attractive cogging forces or torques zero out of the result.  The resetting
of the stack must happen after the magnets have moved away.  Then all it
takes is to overcome their mass inertia to set them back to the starting point.
That makes a reciprocating system self-limiting for speed, which is a good thing.

Regards,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 13, 2008, 07:29:18 PM
Thanks Butch,
Have you built anything like this yourself?
Yes, but I want to have this a blind test for people doing it.
We also have done a test for the coil powered version using a scope.
Will post.
Regards,
Butch

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 13, 2008, 07:37:05 PM
This is a response to "carbonc_cc" and his weak result.

There is a strong correlation between the flux density in the gap between the magnets
and the saturation flux density in the ferrous elements used and their thickness.
Thin wafer-like or washer-like elements will create a relatively weak force.  Ferrites saturate at about 0.5 tesla
so it is not a good candidate for practical applications.

Use steels that saturate at 1.5 tesla or higher and you will more than triple the force.
Also the force occurs only on the end elements.  Any elements in between are "floaters" that
move to zero force positions.   Try thicker steel sections and stronger magnets with
keeper straps to maximize the flux density in the gap.   You will see weak forces
if you don't provide a flux return path for the magnets.  This has a huge effect.

I have shown that with large structures that you can generate hundreds of pounds of force
with strokes up to 6 inches or more.  Just imagine what can be done with an initial expansion
force of 600lbs!!  Keep going guys.  I want you to do your own
independent experimental verifications and come up with other ideas to put this to good use.

Regards,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 13, 2008, 08:15:25 PM
So am I understanding this right?
The attractive force between the horseshoe magnet and washers equals out when using two or more units.
As one horseshoe magnet is brought close to the washers the magnetic attraction between the magnet
and the edge of the washers pulls the other horseshoe magnet away from the other set of washers.
Sort of like 2 elevators connected together so as one goes up the other goes down.
Then the energy from the separating washers is free.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 373bmc on October 13, 2008, 08:46:35 PM
Just a quick thought here guys.. There 2 sources of energy available here.. The seperation stroke, and the resultant potential created in the mass raised.. Capture both.
Title: Re: How to increase repulsion force between elements?
Post by: Butch on October 13, 2008, 08:52:00 PM
I am posting to our web page simulations and force charts of the moving elements divided into segments. We got force increases as high as 16 times and possibly 32.
Will test in real world situation to verify.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 13, 2008, 10:55:01 PM

The answer is not quite.  The idea is that if you move the magnets to a point close
to the stack of steel elements, washers or otherwise, you will reach a point of maximum
attractive force.  If you hold the stack clamped and measure the attractive force and
then let them expand and measure the attractive force again those two force measurements will
be equal.  Therefore in a rotating system or even a linear one if the entry and exit attractive
forces, (pull-in and pull-back) are equal they will average out to zero.  So those "cogging"
forces fall out of the total force equation and you are left with only the expansion force.
THAT is what comes for free.  The expansion force and movement of the elements has NO EFFECT
on the attractive cogging forces.  The expansion force is isolated due to it being at right angles to
the attractive cogging forces.

The requirements are that the volume of ferrous material in the gap must remain constant
and the gap distance must also remain constant.  Also, the steel elements must not
move out of the field region (artificially induced gap change).   Luckily, they can't move out because
they will only move to where the force drops to zero and stop.  It's self-regulating in this regard.

There is no worry about "defeating Lenz" either.  There is no Lenz effect to be concerned about because
the inductance in an EM version won't change.  The only possible way this can bite you is if you
use non-laminated steel with moving magnets or changing fields.  Then you will induce Lenz based
eddy currents in the steel that will cause drag or eddy current losses heating the steel.  But that
would be bad design in the first place.  Don't use solid steel sections except for static force measurements.

I hope the rest of you are finally understanding this concept.  "Yucca" gets it now.  This effect can
be harnessed to do incredible things once you understand it.  I have done a lot of optimization
work on it over the past year.  I would like to see you guys go through the same process
as a means of independent verification.

Cheers,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Link for simulations and force table of segmented moving elements
Post by: Butch on October 14, 2008, 12:29:36 AM
I am posting to our web page simulations and force charts of the moving elements divided into segments. We got force increases as high as 16 times and possibly 32.
Will test in real world situation to verify.
Thanks,
Butch

Here is the link for the simulations, open the force table in MS Word.
http://www.fdp.nu/shared/manager.asp?d=files\ButchLaFonte\Perpendicular%20Magnetics\Force\
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 14, 2008, 01:53:00 AM
To get the point across on how powerful this effect can be since Butch posted the wimpy
simulation results and very suboptimal structures I will post one simulation result of a better
structure to get you guys going the right direction.

This simulation uses M19 steel with 7 large segments that would be 4 inches deep and 3 inches high.
The gap on each side to the magnets is 0.25 inch. The magnets are N45 NIB.
The total stroke would be about 8 inches in this example.
The force developed at the starting point shown here is just over 390lbs or 1738 newtons.
Again the magnetic forces of attraction would be much larger, but is of
no consequence if proper design is used to manage and cancel those forces.

Enjoy,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 14, 2008, 06:43:33 AM
Dave, thanks for sharing these drawings. Seeing a diagram of your magnet motor, many years ago, on jlnlabs.org is what got me started in doing my own magnetic experiments, so I give you full credit. Though I'm sure you are up to your eyeballs in patents and non disclosures, I know many of us here would be interested in a history of your work, and some of your earlier devices.  Anything you are willing to provide, here or elsewhere, now or later, is much appreciated.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 14, 2008, 07:31:52 AM
@drsquires:
I know the problem with all the magnetic motor concepts in past is always that last magnet in the circle. (SMOT)
It always takes more power to past that last magnet then the power accumulated while moving around the circle.
I don't see how this is any different. The closer you get to the edge of the washers the stronger the attractive force
between the magnets and the edge of the washer. So to move away from the edge of the washers is going to take
greater force then the attractive force between the edge of the washers and the magnet.
Or you won't be able to pull the magnet away from the washers.
If you don't pull the magnet away from the washers then the stack of washers won't collapse for the next cycle.
I understand the expansion of the washers is free energy.
But to make them separate you have to move the horseshoe magnet into close proximity to them.
And then to cause them to collapse again you have to move the horseshoe magnet away from them again.
To move the horseshoe magnet away from the washers will take a certain amount of force.
This force is not free, it has to come from somewhere. So were is this force coming from?
This is why I mention using 2 units so the attractive force of one is the pulling away force needed for the other.
Or am I missing something important here?
I have a Perm.Magnet style motor here that I can spin by hand so it works as a generator.
But even with no load at all across it, I find it very difficult to turn by hand because of the strong attraction of the PM's.

To sum up my question: How do you balance the system to eliminate this force?
Are there generators out there that have no magnetic resistance to turning them without a load on them?
Could you draw up some form of diagram?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 14, 2008, 09:44:05 AM
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on October 14, 2008, 11:09:43 AM
What wizkycho just said makes a lot of sense. The only small problem is finding square "washers" :p.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 14, 2008, 11:52:23 AM
@drsquires:
I know the problem with all the magnetic motor concepts in past is always that last magnet in the circle. (SMOT)
It always takes more power to past that last magnet then the power accumulated while moving around the circle.
I don't see how this is any different. The closer you get to the edge of the washers the stronger the attractive force
between the magnets and the edge of the washer. So to move away from the edge of the washers is going to take
greater force then the attractive force between the edge of the washers and the magnet.
Or you won't be able to pull the magnet away from the washers.
If you don't pull the magnet away from the washers then the stack of washers won't collapse for the next cycle.
I understand the expansion of the washers is free energy.
But to make them separate you have to move the horseshoe magnet into close proximity to them.
And then to cause them to collapse again you have to move the horseshoe magnet away from them again.
To move the horseshoe magnet away from the washers will take a certain amount of force.
This force is not free, it has to come from somewhere. So were is this force coming from?
This is why I mention using 2 units so the attractive force of one is the pulling away force needed for the other.
Or am I missing something important here?
I have a Perm.Magnet style motor here that I can spin by hand so it works as a generator.
But even with no load at all across it, I find it very difficult to turn by hand because of the strong attraction of the PM's.

To sum up my question: How do you balance the system to eliminate this force?
Are there generators out there that have no magnetic resistance to turning them without a load on them?
Could you draw up some form of diagram?

Hi AbbaRue,

I'm not Dave Squires but I wanted to reply to you question.

I'm only just beginning to work with this effect, it took me a while to see the potential magic in this effect, because as you say the attraction of the steel to the mags seems to overshadow the seperation force of the steel. You could try this simple experiment to prove to yourself that cogging in this purely attraction mode system will sum to zero force:

Take a free spinning wheel and attach one small steel washer on its side to it. Have the washer move through two attracting neo poles as it spins. The attracting pole unit should be secured rigidly to the baseboard. Now spin the wheel, the wind down time will be nearly the same as if the magnets aren't there (only difference will be eddy current losses as washer passes magpoles). The cogging is there: the wheel experiences a small speed up as the washer  is attracted to the magnets, the wheel then experiences a small slow down as the washer pulls away from the magnets. This speed up slow down force distribution is symmetrical, it sums to zero so the average angular velocity of the wheel stays the same.

Best, Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 14, 2008, 12:01:57 PM
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz

All good points Wiz, squares or rectangles will definitely be best.

Also we need to keep the steel only within the parallel field flux path. Once we move into the bulging field (mag edges) then I think you get crosstalk between the forces, i.e. the magnets begin to see the seperating steel forces.

Also I think the best permanent magnet design may be where the magnets only move toward and away from each other thus increasing and reducing the flux density between them. The steel plate stack is then placed in this varying flux path and the alternating seperation force may then be harvested for free and/or fed back to the magnet moving mechanism to give a self runner. This would be best design because flux line cutting and thus eddy current losses will be minimised. It's a close mechanical analogy to the solenoid electrical solution.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: rha8b on October 14, 2008, 12:55:03 PM
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz

Hello all, I know I'm new here (and especially to this thread), however just wanted to confirm what wizkycho stated above, circular washers are indeed not as good as quadratic shaped ones. I did a bench test to replicate the basic repulsion effect and noticed this almost immediately.

Keep up the valuable research,
-rha8b
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 14, 2008, 01:33:30 PM
What wizkycho just said makes a lot of sense. The only small problem is finding square "washers" :p.

Yup, can't buy them off the shelf but you can buy square steel nuts, but then you also don't want a hole in the middle. I will soon have an old washing machine to scrap for parts, I will be using a dremel wheel to cut nice strips and squares out of the steel chassis parts. May also get a couple of nice iron core solonoids, don't know what voltage they take yet though?

Yucca.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 14, 2008, 05:47:19 PM
This is to confirm what "Yucca" said in post 149.   If you guys are to understand that the cogging
forces or torques are irrelevant if they are equal for collapsed and expanded states you must
have some math background in calculus and understand the process of integration.

Integration is the calculation of the area under a curve.  The torque curves or force curves for
this effect with regard to the forces of attraction to the steel plates or elements of the active
structures are the same for collapsed and expanded states.  So you have one side that
is a POSITIVE X area and the exit side a NEGATIVE X area.  The average of those as a simple
algebraic sum is zero.  X - X = 0  Therefore the cogging torques or forces fall out or cancel out
of the total net force or torque equation.  These forces are only a consideration for vibration and the
need for special structures strong enough to handle those forces.   But that's just engineering
and does not negate the main principle for development of high efficiency motors of various kinds.
There are ways to cancel the vibrational aspects as well and totally cancel the cogging forces
by always keeping them in balance or perfectly cancelled at all times.

Cheers,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Future improvements
Post by: Butch on October 14, 2008, 08:34:38 PM
Yucca,
Great progress you are making. As with so many inventions this will continue to be optimized for hundreds of years to come. It's the original invention that is the hard part. It will be interesting to see the improvements when it gets to the big labs and universities. I also wonder what will be found using a super computer. At the moment it is for the most part only known by the overunity list which is only about .0000000001 % of the population. It will be interesting to see optimizations and improvements that develop when it becomes common knowledge with the general public. It's going to be fun watching this evolve. I'm so lucky to have seen the overunity potential in the sheet metal fanner magnets I used as a young man.
Butch LaFonte
The LaFonte Group
Birmingham, Alabama
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 14, 2008, 09:34:09 PM
This is in response to "derricka" post 145 quoted below:

"Dave, thanks for sharing these drawings. Seeing a diagram of your magnet motor, many years ago, on jlnlabs.org is what got me started in doing my own magnetic experiments, so I give you full credit. Though I'm sure you are up to your eyeballs in patents and non disclosures, I know many of us here would be interested in a history of your work, and some of your earlier devices.  Anything you are willing to provide, here or elsewhere, now or later, is much appreciated."

Well, I am NOT up to my eyeballs in patents and NDA's.  That would be nice if I were.
As for a history of my work...there's not much to tell except running thousands of simulations on
hundreds of ideas that don't or won't work.  I have a few things in the hopper that do or will work, but those
I have to keep quiet until I prove them on the bench. All of that work has been an exercise in learning
mostly what won't work.  That is valuable information in itself as now I don't bother spinning my
wheels in areas that I know have no chance of working or are just not practical.  e.g. Joseph Newman's
motors...who needs a 1000lb machine that is OU by 3% and outputs 100 watts extra power.
It just isn't practical.  There are other examples that are 3% to 5% OU (COP = 1.03 to 1.05).
They are useless in my book.

As an example of a more standard design, I have designed and simulated a more standard
AC generator that has the highest power density possible.  It has standard drag, but is about a tenth
the size of an equivalent typical design.   Imagine a generator about 22" diameter and 16" long with
an RMS output capacity of 604KW at 110VAC rms.  Copper loss is 10.8KW rms or 542 watts/turn rms
at a peak load current of 7769 amps.   A typical generator of this output capacity would be 10x bigger.

Other high efficiency motors I have looked at are capable of COP values of 2 to 10.
Compared to what I am looking at now those are "throwaway" technologies.
They have their uses and perhaps I can develop them someday.  But when you are broke that's
hard to do.   So I have to focus on the simplest and most robust methods with the highest
efficiencies possible to guarantee success.

I have been optimizing this orthogonal field constant reluctance solenoid technology for a year now
and have applications that are way ahead of everyone else on this forum.  Those are my inventions
and I have to keep them under wraps to insure they get out to the world. So I won't be revealing
those here.  They need to get into production in practical applications.  This is not the
place to be discussing such sensitive details.  Next year should see significant progress in
that direction.  Coming up with ideas is one thing.  Making them production worthy devices
for specific applications and marketing them is quite another. That takes a lot more work and
a significant amount of funding to make it happen.

Cheers,
Dave Squires
Title: Re: Reality check
Post by: Butch on October 14, 2008, 11:14:13 PM
I caution everyone about getting to excited at this point with this technology. There are no public videos or demonstrations of self running at this time. The claims fall into the endless list of claims of overunity. So far the only overunity proof exist in words only and lack of in person public demostrations is answered by an endless string of excuses. Lets stay in touch with the real world and work toward a self runner and then the party can start. The internet is a good place for talking at a safe distance without having to face the consequences. But that catches up with people in time. I will see to that personally.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: drsquires on October 15, 2008, 12:19:53 AM
In one sense I agree with Butch.  Don't get too excited and just get into endless discussions about
whether this will work or not.  Do something instead and build your own tests to prove it.

As for me you won't see any public demonstrations from my side.  I don't have to prove this to
anyone else nor do I want to attract the wrong kind of attention.  I don't want any public attention or to be
on the six o'clock news or YouTube like so many other blowhards that really have nothing of substance.

But I would encourage you to go do your own bench tests, simulations or whatever.
I have done mine already.  I know this works and have explained it here in enough detail
that those in the know would know I am right.  Anyone really competent in magnetics,
electronics, and physics would know right away that a system that shows no change in inductance
or has equal area torque or force profiles for entry and exit phases while generating a force
at right angles to the motion has to work with very high efficiency.  There is no doubt.

What we don't need are these kinds of veiled threats and mean spirited words such as just posted by Butch.

"The internet is a good place for talking at a safe distance without having to face the consequences. But that catches up with people in time. I will see to that personally."

You don't need to believe me or Butch.  Ignore both of us and go do your own work to prove it to yourself.
You all have enough information to do the work.  I will not be posting to this forum any longer. There's no need now.

Also, I have no need or desire to read such contentious threatening nonsense as Butch just posted.
You might want to ask yourselves why he would feel the need to write such threatening words
and poison the whole discussion.  I am wondering myself what he is so bothered about that he would say
such things.  I am shaking my head in disbelief and disgust.

Good Bye and Good Luck,
Dave Squires

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: tak22 on October 15, 2008, 12:30:25 AM
@Dave

Thank you for coming here and sharing enough to get us inspired,
and in enough detail for us to get on with it ourselves.

tak
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 15, 2008, 12:32:23 PM
Still having trouble seeing how the seperation of a few washers is going to produce 50 times
the input energy...

Since Wizkycho apparently can't or won't explain that,
perhaps Yucca, Dave or Butch could explain it?

All I see you guys talk about is a method to remove an attracted magnet
from the washer stack by replacing it with another magnet, thereby
minimalising the energy input needed to move the magnet out of
its attraction position...
But how do the washers produce the 5000% output?

Or is it "just" a variation of the LaFonte Equilibrium effect, "just" serious decrease
of the magnetic "drag"?
So that the resulting motor doesn't experience nearly as much drag, and thereby
behaves much more efficient than a "normal" motor?
Is that the big breakthrough?

Because with all the focus on the washers I got the impression that you were
actually saying the washer effect itself was responsible for the 5000% OU...
???
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 01:28:09 PM
Hi all and koen !

1. magnetism from permanent magnet is free and can do work for thousend years (it is proven !!! at least with magnetic transistor experiment...and many other exp.), isn't that so koen1 ? (this is something "science" do not wan't to know. Magnetic tranzistor should be in schools allready
,it is a real natures phenomenon and behaviour)

2. now, moving magnet on principle of equilibrium or balance (see my simple gif animation at replay 89 - this topic) - requires
very little energy to overcome only real friction of mechanics. this friction energy, if setup is moving at same speed,
is constant no matter how much magnets you use.

3. strenght of fanner movement is proporcional (linear) with strenght of free flux (point 1)

so energy at point 2(INPUT) is always much much lower then energy of 3(OUTPUT), no matter how much you multiply output (you can put 100 NdFeB magnets) and get only 30% of that energy through fanners and you will already have 30:1 for output team and you don't have to wory 'bout that load(weight) on output will dissrupt setup and make it underunity - like lenz can and does.

Many tests need to be done to establish how much exactly fanners can extract from given field strenght and what are the best conditions
and dimmensions to get maximum percentage (blue) from fanners, but allready 50:1 is not so hard to imagine. So you could help allso.

When we establish how much fanners can get, even simpler (less moving parts, no need for balancing) setup can be made using magnetic transistor effect (3-4 times amplification of flux). so fanners should be able to extract at least 50% or more to get 3:1 O:I .....and then "amplify" that setup with another three in branching style and you have 9:1 and so on and on ....easily to get to 50:1....

Wiz

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 15, 2008, 02:00:41 PM
Hi all and koen !

1. magnetism from permanent magnet is free and can do work for thousend years (it is proven !!! at least with magnetic transistor experiment...and many other exp.), isn't that so koen1 ? (this is something "science" do not wan't to know. Magnetic tranzistor should be in schools allready
,it is a real natures phenomenon and behaviour)
What are you talking about "magnetic transistor"? I know of no such thing. Yes, we can guide magnetic flux through a path quite easily,
but that's not the same as a transistor... Do you perhaps also have a "flux capacitor" then? ;)
But yes, permanent magnets can last for hundreds if not thousands of years, depending on what type of permanent magnet you're
talking about. Ferrite magnets are almost eternal, but the new supermagnets like Neodymium based ones are definately not.

Quote
2. now, moving magnet on principle of equilibrium or balance (see my simple gif animation at replay 89 - this topic) - requires
very little energy to overcome only real friction of mechanics. this friction energy, if setup is moving at same speed,
is constant no matter how much magnets you use.
Yes, the magnetic equilibrium principle does work to reduce drag.

Quote
3. strenght of fanner movement is proporcional (linear) with strenght of free flux (point 1)
With "fanner movement" you mean the spreading out of the washers I suppose?
Sure, so the washers seperate when field lines cause them to repel eachother.

But you said we're using the magnetic equilibrium principle and two sets of magnets (or two horseshoe magnets but horseshoes typically
are not permanent magnets so let's say we're using sets of attracting p.m.'s), to cause equal flux exposure of the washers while allowing
us to remove one of the sets... right?
That seems to imply that you're keeping the washers seperated all the time, and just moving the magnets...
How does that produce any movement in the washers?
Surely to make the washers move (seperate, then fall together again, then seperate again, etc), you'll need to have the flux decrease...?
After all, if there is constantly a magnetic field that keeps the washers seperated, there will be no movement of the washers...

So how are you going to extract energy from a bunch of washers that remain seperated all the time?

Quote
so energy at point 2(INPUT) is always much much lower then energy of 3(OUTPUT), no matter how much you multiply output (you can put 100 NdFeB magnets) and get only 30% of that energy through fanners and you will already have 30:1 for output team and you don't have to wory 'bout that load(weight) on output will dissrupt setup and make it underunity - like lenz can and does.
What input? You haven't indicated where you're inputting what. What is your input?
Is it the energy you need to move the magnet sets? And how then does simply moving them generate any output at all? How are you inputting that energy?
And how are you getting energy out of the washers ("fanners") in the first place?
Just making them seperate does not magically turn them into perpetual electricity sources or whatever... ;)

Quote
Many tests need to be done to establish how much exactly fanners can extract from given field strenght and what are the best conditions
and dimmensions to get maximum percentage (blue) from fanners, but allready 50:1 is not so hard to imagine. So you could help allso.
If you would just start with explaining how you think you can extract energy from a couple of seperated pieces of metal at all, that might help.
Because it's not the magnetic equilibrium principle that I don't get, it's simply that I just don't follow how you think energy will spontaneously
flow from a few seperated pieces of metal, that's the part I don't follow.
Is it so hard to understand that, to talk about energy extraction at all, we need to have a viable method of actually collecting energy?
That's what I still haven't seen described...
And that's why, in my very first post, I asked if I had missed something.
Now please, if you want to lecture me, explain that to me first, before you start yapping about hypothetical output increases.
First tell me where you're getting your output.

Quote
When we establish how much fanners can get, even simpler (less moving parts, no need for balancing) setup can be made using magnetic transistor effect (3-4 times amplification of flux). so fanners should be able to extract at least 50% or more to get 3:1 O:I .....and then "amplify" that setup with another three in branching style and you have 9:1 and so on and on ....easily to get to 50:1....
Ok, so now I get where you got your ratio. Now explain where you extract the energy, please.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 15, 2008, 02:06:16 PM
Still having trouble seeing how the seperation of a few washers is going to produce 50 times
the input energy...

Since Wizkycho apparently can't or won't explain that,
perhaps Yucca, Dave or Butch could explain it?

All I see you guys talk about is a method to remove an attracted magnet
from the washer stack by replacing it with another magnet, thereby
minimalising the energy input needed to move the magnet out of
its attraction position...
But how do the washers produce the 5000% output?

Or is it "just" a variation of the LaFonte Equilibrium effect, "just" serious decrease
of the magnetic "drag"?
So that the resulting motor doesn't experience nearly as much drag, and thereby
behaves much more efficient than a "normal" motor?
Is that the big breakthrough?

Because with all the focus on the washers I got the impression that you were
actually saying the washer effect itself was responsible for the 5000% OU...
???

Hi Koen,

Provided the output force does not directly couple to the input forces then the actual OUT:IN ratio obtainable is only limited by the exact design and production quality.

See the hypothetical device below.

The big flywheels are geared together and are driven from an exernal source like a small electric motor. The mechanism causes the mags to reciprocate along free guides like linear bearings.

It would only require small energy input only to overcome friction, because the magnetic forces exerted by the magnets are symetrical:

As the magnets are going together the attraction forces will speed the flywheels up.
As the magnets are going apart the attraction forces will slow the flywheels down.
However because the forces are symmetrical the flyhweels average speeds will not be affected by the magnetic forces.
The flywheel mechanicaly integrates all of the forces over time. The energy within the flywheel remains pretty constant, only losing a little to friction.

So to mantain a constant speed the flywheels will have to be fed only enough power to overcome friction. Put the apparatus in a vacuum and use very free bearings and this input power can be got REAL low. We will call this average input power requirement X Watts.

Now the seperating washers will produce an up force as they seperate, you could use this to raise a weight using ratchet or produce electricity with mag and coils etc. We will call the average output power of the sytem Y Watts.

COP = Y/X

I don't know the origins of the 50/1 figure, maybe just a guess?

Note:
My only doubts about the effect at the moment is that the input sees the output more than we think. For myself I will have to verify physically that the effect yields COP>1.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: ramset on October 15, 2008, 02:49:38 PM
Yucca did you look at Erhfinders web site http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/home_1.html In his news section is a video of something similar and running
Chet
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 03:16:03 PM
koen1!

1.http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2222.msg130730#msg130730
and many other experiments.
don't be affraid to call it Magnetic transistor, this is new component to "real science" - it exists and it should be called like that cause emidiately one knows that small magflux input yields (3 - 4 times) stronger field at output.
Can it make work is another question ? but allso has been proven it can.
Permanent magnet is flux capacitor, only differnce is it is allmost Infinite. (so I still wouldn't call it that way)
We all know what magnetic resistor is and how it is made.
We can allso make magnetic diode.

Magnetic transistor can not work without filled capacitor (or battery) - just like transistor can't. the difference is magnet is Infinite,current battery and capacitors are not. soon we will have magnetic schematics of some device.

If you do not admitt to yourself magnetic transistor (or call it what you like) effect exists and that it is so, there is nothing left for you to understand. Interesting as hero member you believe in energy amplification (transistor powered by void) but can not believe in magnetic amplification (transistor powered by magnet) !?! why is it so ?

1a. smCo and NdFeB are eternal (but not of the highest grades over 1.5T - still experimental) allso, if not overheated, overMechaniclyAbused, overCounrterPolarised, chemically unprotected, overXraied, overRadiated. have other infos about this ?

2. OK

3. One magnet pair is spaced from another magnet pair by width of rectangular washer. Fanner(washer stack)s are 1mm spaced one from another. magnet pairs are same width as fanners.
So every other fanner is overlaped with one magnet pair at a time.

Since there are washers (at same distance) all the way magnet travels with no stky points no drag back no foreward attraction. Just friction.
and if speed of their movemet is same mechanical input is constant and is low.

4. input needed to overcome only mechanicall friction (bearings etc.)

5. one(first) fanner is fixed and mech energy is extracted from last nonfixed

6. conversion of linear mech energy to electrical using linear permanent magnet-coil arrangement.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 15, 2008, 03:25:55 PM
@Yucca: Thanks! That helps a lot. :)

@Wizkycho: I am sorry, but anyone who so confidently proclaims a permanent magnet to
be an actual "flux capacitor" immediately plummets several hundred feet in my esteem.
Next thing you know you'll be claiming that you can go back to the future. ;)

If you think a permanent magnet is a "magnetic" capacitor, then you probably also think
that a battery is a "current capacitor"?
I'd almost think that you believe that magnetic flux flows through a magnetic material just
like electrons flow through a conductor... Surely you don't...?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 04:18:35 PM
@Yucca: Thanks! That helps a lot. :)

@Wizkycho: I am sorry, but anyone who so confidently proclaims a permanent magnet to
be an actual "flux capacitor" immediately plummets several hundred feet in my esteem.
Next thing you know you'll be claiming that you can go back to the future. ;)

If you think a permanent magnet is a "magnetic" capacitor, then you probably also think
that a battery is a "current capacitor"?
I'd almost think that you believe that magnetic flux flows through a magnetic material just
like electrons flow through a conductor... Surely you don't...?

1. back in Time is not possible at all - therefore back from Time to future allso is not. cause Time doesn't exists, it is human invention from nothing, there is no Time in nature or space. Time trevel never and never can be made real.
Flux capacitor in the movie allso could be filled only to egzakt ammount of flux - just like a permanent magnet.
Capacitor and battery are SOURCES of electron "medium". So is magnet as SOURCE of flux in magnetism.
You'll be surprised but I believe that car can go on bananas too..!!!!! ;D

2. I never said that - you did. ! But if You really don't know  water,heat , magnetism, current, voltage, light ...-  fields of scinece have their sepparate rules but in some points they interact. Transistor, capacitor, wire, conductor, condensator - are common descriptional words of what that part is doing but not the medium is using.

So here on Earth, You will see when You come and visit us, there are words as Light Wire (it "conducts" light and you'll be surprised not at all electrons) common red brick can be Heat Capacitor (but again You'll be surprised heat is stored not electrons). are You tring to open linguistic debate -  go to the other forum.

I'm actually proposing to embrase term magnetic transistor so we would not have to go through all of this explanation of what it is.
when phrase "magnetic transistor" is said  - everything is said.
agreed ?

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
To get the point across on how powerful this effect can be since Butch posted the wimpy
simulation results and very suboptimal structures I will post one simulation result of a better
structure to get you guys going the right direction.

This simulation uses M19 steel with 7 large segments that would be 4 inches deep and 3 inches high.
The gap on each side to the magnets is 0.25 inch. The magnets are N45 NIB.
The total stroke would be about 8 inches in this example.
The force developed at the starting point shown here is just over 390lbs or 1738 newtons.
Again the magnetic forces of attraction would be much larger, but is of
no consequence if proper design is used to manage and cancel those forces.

Enjoy,
Dave Squires

Hi Dave Squires !

Can you please post ziped fem model and If would explain to me how to properly start calculation of forces.
Your results are more than promissing. I allso think it could be so.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 06:05:11 PM
Yucca did you look at Erhfinders web site http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/home_1.html In his news section is a video of something similar and running
Chet

Hi all !

the last video is no longer available. any other link. you saved it maybe ?

Time to wake up... sounds like must have video ?

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Goat on October 15, 2008, 06:29:53 PM
Hi Wiz

Not sure why it doesn't work for you but I was able to play the "Time to wake up" video on the http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/in_the_news.html site, if it doesn't open for you maybe try this direct link to the video on Youtube:

Regards;
Paul
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 15, 2008, 07:27:24 PM
Hi Wiz

Not sure why it doesn't work for you but I was able to play the "Time to wake up" video on the http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/in_the_news.html site, if it doesn't open for you maybe try this direct link to the video on Youtube:

Regards;
Paul
Hi all

Amazing. magnets can not do work they say  :D :D :D

This works on equilibrium principle. Would be nice to hear from the maker for details.
Fantastic. what a workmanship. but I think no fanners here.
Anyone knows more about this ? Or we should make a trip to china and learn language and writting ?

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: tak22 on October 15, 2008, 07:35:51 PM

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Shinyeon_Energy_Research_Center (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Shinyeon_Energy_Research_Center)

tak
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: technobear on October 15, 2008, 08:00:07 PM
6. conversion of linear mech energy to electrical using linear permanent magnet-coil arrangement.

Wiz

I can see a small problem with that. On the power stroke all will be well and we can extract energy from a coil. On the return stoke we are relying on gravity to pull the stack back down while we extract an equal amount of energy in the other direction from the coil. This will create drag on the mechanism and the stack will fall slowly reducing the efficacy of the machine.

What is needed is a restoring force that can do as much work as the power stroke - a spring perhaps or a design where stacks operate in pairs and the power stroke of one resets the other.

I also see a small problem with the cost and size efficiency of this machine. To take the example above of 300 lbs force and 6 inches travel. If a stack can be operated at one Hz this come out to a shaft output per stack of about 200 Watts for a machine with fairly large and expensive neos and quite a bit of steel. Obviously the machine will be more cost effective if it has many stacks and few magnets to increase the power strokes per second. Then again a machine with a suitable stack restoring mechanism might allow the stacks to operate at much more than 1 Hz - I don't know.

As for the COP, I think this will depend mostly on how large you build the machine. Doubling the size of the machine should not double the input power (which is still required only to overcome rotor friction) but the output should increase by a huge amount with larger magnets and more steel. So the bigger you build it, the higher the COP. That's my theory anyway.

Just my thoughts. Hope that helps.  :)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: technobear on October 15, 2008, 08:45:39 PM
I've drawn a diagram of how I currently envisage this thing. I've omitted a few bits for the sake of clarity. In addition to the stacks shown, there would be two more at 90 degrees.

There are two magnets on each rotor and they are 90 degrees apart one rotor from the other.

Output is of course taken from the reciprocating cylinders linking the stacks.

A means would be needed to support the stack central columns while allowing the stack cylinders to reciprocate.

Plus a motor to drive the rotor.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on October 15, 2008, 10:07:11 PM
I think these mechanical solution presented over here are
interesting and might work,
but to get the COP really into the range of 20 to 50 you have to go with
electric power input.

The easiest thing would be a tunable LC circuit, that runs
on the same resonance frequency as the reciprocating
output frequency of the square washers pushing back and forth.

Have a look at this video to see the effect
of the low resonance input power into the driving
LC tank circuit.

In this video you would just use the left shown LC tank circuit
in the circuit diagram to drive the washers back and forth.

You need to wind the coil around the core of the soft iron core
pieces that conduct the magnet flux into the airgap,
where the square washers move back and forth.

So no magnets are needed at all.

At the resonance frequency of the LC circuit this
motor will run only on very low input power ( just the coil windings
and iron core eddy current  losses, you can see it in the video: the lightbulb goes
very dim, so not much input current is flowing= very low input power)
and have a huge mechanical power output.

P.S: Surely the resonance frequency must be set lower  via the
LC tank circuit  than in this video, maybe just around 10 to 100 Hz ,
so the
"washer piston" will not fly apart.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 15, 2008, 10:13:11 PM
Yucca did you look at Erhfinders web site http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/home_1.html In his news section is a video of something similar and running
Chet

Hi Chet,

Yes I have seen that video on youtube a few months back:

A fine bit of engineering, IÂ´d love to know the working priciple of it. IÂ´m pretty sure the central drum is driven and then the pistons take off energy, IÂ´m assuming this becasue at 3:26 in the vid the left hand set of pistons lose synch and come to stop whilst the right hand set continues. What I would love to know is what the drum has on it, it looks like chunks of really uneven stuff, like slices of rocks or something?

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 15, 2008, 10:29:37 PM
hartiberlin:

Would your theoritical design impliment PWM with very long strand coil (maybe many miles of magnet wire) using very high voltage but very low amperage?  Newman Motor like.  But instead of driving a very large magnet rotor you are positioning the metal squares...

No real current would be used but create a very strong magnetic field.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 15, 2008, 10:35:43 PM
I think these mechanical solution presented over here are
interesting and might work,
but to get the COP really into the range of 20 to 50 you have to go with
electric power input.

Hey Guys,
I agree with Stefan. Go with an electrical system. We will post early video we did to help you along with basic principle.
Free energy for all,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 16, 2008, 12:36:29 AM
I think these mechanical solution presented over here are
interesting and might work,
but to get the COP really into the range of 20 to 50 you have to go with
electric power input.
Hey Guys,
I agree with Stefan. Go with an electrical system. We will post early video we did to help you along with basic principle.
Free energy for all,
Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch, Look forward to the video.

P.S.
Thanks for starting this thread :)

Yucca.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on October 16, 2008, 12:46:00 AM
hartiberlin:

Would your theoritical design impliment PWM with very long strand coil (maybe many miles of magnet wire) using very high voltage but very low amperage?  Newman Motor like.  But instead of driving a very large magnet rotor you are positioning the metal squares...

No real current would be used but create a very strong magnetic field.

Well, no need for long wire coils here.

You can use low ohmic coils and use bigger caps
to compensate for the LC tank Q ( quality).

You must get a very high Q for this tank at the
resonance frequency of just a few 10 to 100 Hz.

Maybe this alufoil in a borax solution jar variable
cap solution can be used to get the cap into the uF range

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 16, 2008, 12:57:02 AM
Hi Butch, Look forward to the video.

P.S.
Thanks for starting this thread :)

Yucca.
[/quote]
Yucca,
Your welcome, I just hope that it works out as planned so that greed does not come into play and everyone ends up paying so much for the units that it's not much different than paying a power bill or gasoline bill. I would like to see kits and/or plans made available world wide as well as very inexpensive units for cars and homes. Who knows what will happen once India, China, Japan and Mexico among others get wind of this.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 16, 2008, 07:16:12 AM
Those products from Shinyeon are very cool.. they have done some great work.  Does anyone know how the magnet motor works?  Could we build a simpler version of it?

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: braden on October 16, 2008, 10:47:32 AM
By continually exerting the washers to a magnetic field will they not become magnetized ?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Kator01 on October 16, 2008, 03:37:01 PM

there are many materials available e.g. special iron-laminations for transformers which have no residual induction
( remanence). Oherwise transformer-technique would not be possible.
We will  not use simple washers you can buy in your hobby-shop.

Kator
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 16, 2008, 05:23:37 PM
koen1!

1.http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2222.msg130730#msg130730
and many other experiments.
don't be affraid to call it Magnetic transistor,
So let me get this straight...
You point me toward a magnetic motor which uses a permanent magnet in the core,
and you want me to call it a "magnetic transistor"?
Why? Why don't you stop calling it a "magnetic transistor" and start calling it a "magnetic motor with a pm in the core",
a.k.a. "permanent magnet assisted electromotor"?
What is the transistor element?
I do NOT see a device where we can input a magnetic field momentarily, and that magically amplifies this field to produce
a much stronger field output.
What I do see is a more efficient and interesting electromotor.
Perhaps you pointed me toward the wrong thread?

Quote
Permanent magnet is flux capacitor, only difference is it is allmost Infinite.
Since you are so very adamant, please indicate how you think you can store additional flux inside
a magnet, hold it there, and only later extract it, leaving you with the flux you just took from the magnet,
and a magnet that is less magnetic untill you "charge" it with flux again...?
That would be a flux capacitor.
But you can't do that with a permanent magnet.

In my opinion, a permanent magnet is more like a "magnetic" Electret. Which is sort of a self-charging
capacitor, as far as the field lines are concerned. Like a magnet, an electret has a permanent static field
around it. And you cannot use an electret as a normal capacitor, just like you cannot use a magnet
as a "flux capacitor".

Quote
We all know what magnetic resistor is and how it is made.
We can allso make magnetic diode.

I must say I have some trouble with your tendency to talk about magnetic flux as if it is electric current.
I would prefer if you'd call a flux gate a flux gate and not a "magnetic diode", because a "magnetic diode"
is a term that was once used for tubes in which electrons were allowed to pass or were blocked, depending
on the direction and intensity of a circular magnetic field which was induced by coils on a ring shaped core.
A "flux gate" on the other hand is a setup that allows flux to pass only in one direction. It has nothing
to do with electron flow, and so it is not a diode at all, or perhaps it might be termed a "flux diode" at best.
Same thing with the "magnetic resistor", it is possible to increase the electrical resistance of certain (semi-)conductors
by increasing a magnetic field that passes through the material. This would be a magnetic resistor.
If you are talking about a device that restricts the passage of magnetic flux through a material, you shouldn't
use the term "resistor", as that implies electrical resistivity and not flux permeability.

Quote
Magnetic transistor can not work without filled capacitor (or battery) - just like transistor can't. the difference is magnet is Infinite,current battery and capacitors are not. soon we will have magnetic schematics of some device.

If you do not admitt to yourself magnetic transistor (or call it what you like) effect exists and that it is so, there is nothing left for you to understand. Interesting as hero member you believe in energy amplification (transistor powered by void) but can not believe in magnetic amplification (transistor powered by magnet) !?! why is it so ?
No, it is not that I deny any possibility that we might be able to somehow amplify energy and use magnetic fields in the process.
It is that your posts seem more enthousiastic than realistic. It's almost like you're shouting "gold! gold!" while all I see at the moment is something shiny.
And we all know, not everything shiny is a piece of gold. :)
Your simplistic view of magnetic "capacitors" and your fairly aggressive attempts to convert me instead of convincing me on the basis of logical argumentation,
strengthen my impression that you are not as superbly informed as you seem to believe. You seem to jump to conclusions and casually use incorrect terminology
now and then, and then you even manage to be surprised when I am a bit critical instead of gullible?

Anyway, you're still not making much sense in your explanation of the washer seperation.
If the flux must remain the same in the zone where the washers are, so that the magnets can be easily removed from eachothers attraction,
then your "overlapping" magnetic field will simply replace the initial field, and the washers will never really move, will they?
If they do move, there must be a period during which the washers do not experience a field. If that is so, then there must be no magnets
attracting eachother on either side of the washers. If that is so, the magnets must have been (re)moved. But that would mean moving the
magnets away from the washers and eachother such a distance that for a moment, no field passes through the washers.
And that seems to be in conflict with the idea of simultaneously moving a second magnet set in place to keep the flux the same and
thereby reduce the "drag"...
You can't use the magnetic equilibrium principle to keep the flux the same and simultaneously replace one set of magnets by another set,
and at the same time have the flux drop to zero to allow the washers fall back down. Either the flux stays, the washers stay, and the magnet
sets are switched, or the first magnet set is removed, the flux goes, the washers drop, the second magnet set is placed, the flux builds,
the washers seperate again. The first sounds like a futile magnet switching excercise, the second sounds like a useless and certainly not
energy effcient moving of magnets to make the flux come and go.
Unless you have omitted a fairly important part of the setup as you envision it, this is all I can make of your story.

Oh, and by the way, if it is possible to move pairs of magnets closer to and away from eachother without any
energy loss (which I doubt and still want to hear explained but let's just assume it is possible for now),
then would it not be more usefull to place coils directly between the moving magnets and extract the output
power directly from the fluctuations in flux intensity between the magnets? Seems like using those fluctuations
to physically move a piston which in turn moves another magnet through a coil is not the most efficient way
(physical friction in the system causing more energy loss than a still-lying coil)...?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on October 16, 2008, 05:40:10 PM
Koen1 if you have time to post such big post, that only people like you read anyway, which are filled with your godly knowledge you should better actually conduct some experiments. Your posts contain 0% food for the mind or something constructive unlike the people you're arguing with. I'm surprised wizkycho is even responding. You can think of me as you like after this post, but most people are here for one thing and that is free energy. And not the same old ego stroking from people like you that get a boner from "telling off" those dumb free energy believers. You are in the wrong community my friend.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 16, 2008, 05:54:26 PM
No, it seems you are in the wrong community.
Although your need for food for the mind does explain why you don't seem to use it much.
In this post of yours you do exactly what you want me not to do: you tell me off, you do not
add anything constructive, and you do not add any "food for thought" either.

Pot calling kettle black kinda thing again eh?

But besides that, you are not getting the point. I am not trying to put anyone off,
I am trying to get someone to explain clearly and in detail how they envision
a setup where the simple "fanning out" of washers can produce 50 times more energy
than the energy used to make the washers "fan out".

If you are so brilliant, my friend, then why don't you explain it to me?
Where is the energy gain, how do you get the magnets to seperate without them
needing energy input to counter their magnetic attraction, and if you do so by
moving a second set closer so that the flux remains at the same level, then how
do you get the washers to experience a flux decrease at the same time?

It is a remarkable feat to accuse someone who has been expressing his desire
to have this explained in detail which is definately a constructive intent,
of being inconstructive and argumentative, while doing exactly the same yourself.
Bravo.

If you prefer fellow forum visitors that collectively shout agreement and fanaticism,
perhaps you should go to your local church or mosk, instead of a dicussion forum
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 16, 2008, 06:43:27 PM
Hi Koen1 !

If You just embrase the term Magnetic Transistor - Your post would be only two words and every one would know what are you talking about.

Term Magnetic Transistor - aside from very close principle of work (not medium) simmilarity to current transistor (small current at input controling large currents at output) - weak mag flux strenght controling much stronger magnetic flux, SEE the simmilarity...

Term Magnetic Transistor is good for our research and for free energy and OU developmnet in a way that many people knows how revolutionary discovery of transistor was indeed. Exact or even more attention deserves this well prooven method of controling strong mag flux with weaker magnetic flux at input - Magnetic Transistor is revolutionary in a way that is capable of using Infinite source of medium (for the first time in known history) and that source is within perm.magnet. Magnetic Transistor is revolutionary allso that If properly used
can lead to development of Energy Transistor --> make world peace very realistic possiblity --> deep space exploration --> colonization of planets with none life support atmosfere and soil --> etc. (all of it for the first time possible in known  human history)...

So carry with me Transistor Flag. Nobody heard of an electret (only few)

everything else you speak of is linguistic debate.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 16, 2008, 06:56:28 PM
And Koen1

You are Rude (COP 500) beyond comprehension - new term Overrudity and measuring unit is 1 Koen = 500 times of just beeing pissed.
agree ?

Anybody from goverments staff pays you to be so agitated - have any interest at all for beeing so agitated ?

If You can't --> don't quote me anymore.

And Koen Don't get Nude And Rude at a same time. You are not Iggy Pop

This is provoked mail cause You are beeeing so so Rude...

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 16, 2008, 11:21:29 PM
@Gentlemen?

Ideas are always of some value. Not always useable but there is value there.

For the magnetic transistor cult may I suggest reading up on mag-amps or magnetic amplifiers. Sorry, that idea is already taken and you probably have one in your home.

Electrets uncommon? Again, look around. I know I have two and maybe a third. They are in the form of a microphone from radioshack. An electret is the charge equivalent of a permanent magnet.

Flux capacitor? Boy that is a tough one! You can drain a capacitor to do work. Same for a magnet (as it looses magnetism) but it isn't doing the work it will only be part of the process.

I must think about the other concepts but my soup and crackers are currently in the way.

BTW: Mag-Amps were replaced by transistors. Mag-Amps(magnetic transistors) are still used today.

As far as magnetic diodes... @EMDevices found and posted detailed information on a bridge rectifier that was of the mag-amp variety. Yes magnetic diodes did and may still exist. I have no idea how good they were ;D

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Tempest on October 17, 2008, 01:06:43 AM
A flux capacitor???    Something that internally increases flux as energy is added to it. Then decreases flux as energy is removed from it. Sound like an inductor to me.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 17, 2008, 02:01:45 PM
Nobody heard of an electret (only few)

everything else you speak of is linguistic debate.

That only shows how little you know of anything.
"nobody heard of electret" hah!
What nonsense. If you haven't heard of the term "electret", then you
clearly know very little about electrical theory.

And while my pointing out that you are structurally using incorrect terminology
is indeed somewhat linguistically inclined, I feel I need to point out to you
that the terminology signifies very clear concepts in physics, and just
mixing them up is plainly confusing and makes you say incorrect things.
You may think that mixing terminology for electrical resistivity phenomena
and those for magnetic permeability and flux density phenomena does not
mean anything, but it certainly does. Not only does mixing them show how
confused you appear to be concerning the concepts themselves, or at least
how little you seem to understand of the crucial difference between electricity
and magnetism, but also it makes it a lot less clear what exactly you are talking about.
If you say "resistance" but you mean "decreased flux permeability", that's
quite a huge difference in what you're talking about. Yes, linguistics, but no,
not at all unimportant to use the right words.
Besides, weren't you the guy who flamed my very first post for missing words?
Am I seeing this right here? Is that same guy now telling me that the exact words
are not that important? Contradictory attitude, sir.

@BEP: I agree.

@Tempest: well, I guess that depends on how you look at it...
In my view, a capacitor is a simple device in which we can store electrical charges.
That is, we can connect it to a source of electrostatic potential difference,
and said potential difference will be "absorbed" by and stored in the capacitor,
untill we connect the capacitor in such a way that enables us to connect the
potential difference stored in it via a conductor, which allows the potential difference
to disappear as electrical charge is allowed to flow through the conductor to cancel
out the charge difference.
Crucial here is that the energy fed into it is in the form of electrostatic potential,
and the energy that comes out is in the same form.

Now to do so with magnetic flux, would yield a device that is fed magnetic flux,
then store that, untill we connect a magnetic material (which is permeable to flux)
so that the stored magnetistatic potential difference can disappear as the flux
passes through the magnetic material and cancels out the magnetostatic potential difference.
Crucial here is that we feed it magnetic flux, and the energy that comes out is
in the form of magnetic flux.

An inductor in general is fed with electric current and produces magnetic flux, or is fed with flux fluctuations
and produces current. In a way, it "transduces" electrical energy into magnetic "energy".

May seem like a small difference, but it is quite a significant difference in my opinion.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 17, 2008, 02:24:40 PM
Flux-Capacitor:

A superconductor is a material that carries electric current without any loss of energy. Currents lose energy as they flow through normal wires. This energy loss appears as a voltage drop across the material--the voltage of the current as it enters the material is higher than the voltage of the current when it leaves the material. But in a superconductor, the current doesn't lose any voltage at all. As a result, currents can even flow around loops without stopping. Currents are magnetic and superconducting magnets are based on the fact that once you get a current flowing around a loop of superconductor, it keeps going forever and so does its magnetism.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 17, 2008, 03:31:37 PM
As long as you keep the superconductor cooled to at least 150 Kelvin
(with the newest cuprate superconductors, the old ones need 50K or lower)
and that still takes a huge lot of energy. Take that into account in the
energy calculations of your "eternal" inductor, and it becomes quite
inefficient...
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 17, 2008, 06:26:48 PM

I very well know what electret is. Other people (with different experitze) doesn't at all.
But what they do know is importance of Invention of Transistor that it had and still has in todays life of common everyday people.
Mag-amp WORD is unfortunately allso forgotten by everyone even those who study electricity.

What I clearly said is that Mag-amp deserves reincarnation cauise mainstream science still teaches our children that "static" field of
permanent magnet means nothing but to hold to the refrigerator. With mag-amp or mag-trans we are now able to OSCILLATE (CHANGE in TIME) strenght of INFINITE mag field. This is what is revolutionary here. CHANGE is only way to proof exsistance of real kinetic energy (so mainstream science must now agree). CHANGE is ENERGY and vice versa. Especially helpfull is if  that change can be made with smaller ammount of same media (flux) at the input. Allso if used properly magnetic transistor can be part of FE-OU device (Energy Transistor).

BEP and Koen1 you both missed the point. It is not about who will outsmart who here, it was all about how much of our ideas, knowledge and experiments reach everydays people. It is about Populization of idea and knowledge.  So to give it a push, mag-amp should be reincarnated with new more powerfullWORD. Magnetic field Transistor

Koen1
Quote
That only shows how little you know of anything.
"nobody heard of electret" hah!
What nonsense. If you haven't heard of the term "electret", then you
clearly know very little about electrical theory.

Why do you have to make most of your replays sounds like written by pompous full ?

Wiz
Title: Early test video of basic principle, LaFonte Group
Post by: Butch on October 17, 2008, 07:24:51 PM
This is the first of five test videos done by Mark years ago. I want you all to watch it and please tell me what think you see going on in the test, the results that is.
Here is the link > http://www.fdp.nu/shared/files/ButchLaFonte/Perpendicular%20Magnetics/Test1.mov
Thanks Guys,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: 4Tesla on October 17, 2008, 08:12:40 PM
Very hard to see the needle on the meter.  Did see it move near the end.

Jason
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 17, 2008, 08:27:36 PM
Very hard to see the needle on the meter.  Did see it move near the end.

Jason
Jason,
Mark is showing with his hand the direction the needle is moving. It's the direction that is important. What do you make of the direction of the needle movements in relation to what he is doing with the bars?
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 17, 2008, 09:58:52 PM
Re: my earlier post on ferrite bead separation.
I have now measured the force that it takes to close the gap, at 28 grams.  (still in finger pressure range, but more than I expected!)
I did this by placing a 54mm plastic separator tube (1gram) on top of the beads (to keep additional mass out of magnetic influence)
I then added 27 grams of additional beads and washers on top of the separator tube.  which left a gap of less than 1mm between the four beads.
Each bead in the photo weighs 1.3 grams. (10 beads measured together at 13 grams)

From what I can tell, separated beads or elements do take a bit more work to pull from the magnet, then unseparated elements. so this is not a total free lunch situation.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gyulasun on October 18, 2008, 12:03:26 AM
Jason,
Mark is showing with his hand the direction the needle is moving. It's the direction that is important. What do you make of the direction of the needle movements in relation to what he is doing with the bars?
Butch

Hi Butch,

When Mark pushes in the bars the needle goes to the left: means the current becomes a bit less. And when he pulls them out, the needle goes a little to the right: means some current increase. Also when the bars separate the needle goes to the left: current decrease.

Is this what you mean?

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 18, 2008, 01:16:00 AM
Hi Butch,

When Mark pushes in the bars the needle goes to the left: means the current becomes a bit less. And when he pulls them out, the needle goes a little to the right: means some current increase. Also when the bars separate the needle goes to the left: current decrease.

Is this what you mean?

rgds,  Gyula
Gyula,
Yes you see it correctly. The first tests years ago were very discouraging. They showed that the bars repelling each other caused a counter EMF that opposed the voltage/current from the power supply. This is not a constant reluctance circuit.
Butch
Title: Re: Early test video of basic principle, LaFonte Group
Post by: hartiberlin on October 18, 2008, 03:07:48 AM
This is the first of five test videos done by Mark years ago. I want you all to watch it and please tell me what think you see going on in the test, the results that is.
Here is the link > http://www.fdp.nu/shared/files/ButchLaFonte/Perpendicular%20Magnetics/Test1.mov
Thanks Guys,
Butch

Hi Butch,
good video.

We can see here, that the principle works.
We only have to look at the part of the movie, when the 2 iron rods
are inside the external core.

When Mark is pressing the 2 rods together, the ampmeter does not move
very much and when he releases them, so they will
again go apart abount an inch, also the ampmeter does not move much.

So you see, that the inductance of the whole coil-core system is not much changed during these
events.

Better would still have been, if Mark would have put the 2 iron rods ontop of each other into the external
coil-core.
Then one rod would have been lifted up and then even the ampmeter would have shown less movement,
when one rod was lifted up by the repellation forces between the 2 iron rods.

To control then the 2 iron rods,one needs only to
switch on and off the coil with short pulses from the power supply and put a cap in parallel with the coil
and have this LC circuit have the same resonance frequency as the iron rod
movement frequency and the power supply pulse frequency.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 18, 2008, 03:31:14 AM
I think one of the important facts is the current returns to the original point whether the bars are together or separated.

Another important point is this 'original point' is a static result. I believe @poynt99 made that point already. Lenz is part of this during the separation and combination of the flux.

To me, this demonstrates one reason to not use electronics and coils in place of magnets.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 18, 2008, 08:17:36 AM
I just had a crazy idea. I thought about the repulsion between the washer "plates" and turned it upside down to think attraction instead. Attracting plates would be a charged capacitor. Repelling plates should be a capacitor "charged" with inverse power.  Then I had an even crazier idea. What would happen if you shorted (or loaded) the plates either just approaching or just leaving the magnets....?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: b0rg13 on October 18, 2008, 10:26:58 AM
I just had a crazy idea. I thought about the repulsion between the washer "plates" and turned it upside down to think attraction instead. Attracting plates would be a charged capacitor. Repelling plates should be a capacitor "charged" with inverse power.  Then I had an even crazier idea. What would happen if you shorted (or loaded) the plates either just approaching or just leaving the magnets....?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 18, 2008, 11:08:08 AM
Hello Honoured OverUnity-Forum-Profiles and
an especial Hello to the Honoured Administator of
the OverUnity-Forum !!

Discussions per Replies to Replies founded on the
original TopicÂ´s Idea !!

Might I kindly briefly just merely comment by these few
Aspects-Points :

***************************
The H-fields-Properties of various mu-r-permeabilities-materials
DO ARE rather especial to would realize about and
calculate on........
for multi-many "small" local H-dipoles and H-multi-poles per
H-influenses to H-influenses
when being exposed to an external H-field.......

as an e.g. to kindly refer to Historical Magneto-Statics
>>how to would define and state about the socalled
>>internal mu-r-permeabilities-materials-own-H-field
>>versus the outer-from-material-H-field caused by
>>the materialsÂ´s multi-many local "small" H-dipoles <<
a rather especial Wordings-Term was used in Classical
Magneto-Statics about a such internal-materials-H-field !!

****************************************************

the socalled LENZÂ´s LAW is "just" a socalled Physics-Mathematics-
Expressions-Theoreme......
FOR HOW IS IT IN FACT IN "FUNCTIONAL NATURE.......
HOW IS IT IN FACT "DERIVED" FROM WHAT ASSUMPTIONS.....
etc.....etc.....  !!

IT DOES IS POSSIBLE TO "xxxx-PASS" THE LENZÂ´s LAW
BY SURDEN METHODS..........!!

WHEN THERE IS EVALUATED ABOUT THE "REAL NATURE" OF
THE LENZÂ´s LAW ,
THEN IS ALSO THE METHODS OF "xxxx-PASSING"  THE
LENZÂ´s LAW  "GIVEN"....!!

***********************************************************************

Often/sometimes it might be "fruitfull" to would realize about "Coils"
"instead" of the mu-r-permeabilities-materials in surden Situations...
i.e. when having a "slim" long permeabilities-rod like a socalled
allthough a "Coil" might seemingly "be" rather like a socalled
"para-magnetical"-Property...........still also the "Coil" might
be expressable as a sort of "permeability" ==>> though all depending
on the Analyzings-Assumptions as made to the specific Situation !!

***********************************************************************

YES.......HOW CLOSE YOU ARE.......HOW CLOSE.......
when the Discussion also involves a "Coil" and the mu-r-permeabilities-
Objects..................
just a relevant Modification of the SEtUp asmentioned in the
hitherto Discussion would "make" a "well-performing-few-procentes"
OU-acting.............YES........the "Coil" as included  also will "perform"
well....!!

**************************************************************************

The importances of the socalled GRADIENTES of the
H-fields............might I kindly refer to (my) former Discussions-
Notes with i.e. the Honourable STEORN-GROUP
(though They wanted to invite some "chosen" Scientists/Technicians
(not me) to "behold" by DEMO-viewings the STEORN-GROUPÂ´s
OU-Construction !!

And might I kindly refer to (my) Topics in
the now-gone-past Heffects-John-Hutchison-
Effects-Forum...........
and (my) Topics in the still being ezboard-founded Heffects-
John-Hutchison-Forum...........
in Means of OU-Actings......!!

***************************************************************************

YES........about to would calculate on the Classical H-fields-lines
per the socalled nearly 200-Years-old-BIOT-SAVART-emperically-
suggested-H-fields-electro-magnetical-Formalism............

YES......it is easy to say : YES........though to would per
"exact" Mathematical Formalisms attempt to
easily EXPRESS SUCH
> Electro-magnetical CoilÂ´s H-fields<........
mostly NOT as easy to "just" "do"....i.e. with kind References to
involved HYPER-GEOMETRICAL-MATHEMATICAL-FORMALISMS,etc....

though at least p.t. it is fairly easy to would EXPRESS
Classical Electro-Magnetics H-fields-"lines" per
Computer-Based NUMERICAL-CALCULATIONS.......!!

*************************************************

WKR & have Yourself a nice day and Weekend and
a late Autumn and Fruitfull Experimental/Theoretical Results !

Have Yourself Benefits from Your respective various many hardlabored Doings !

And You All work and perform GRAND as compared to
surden Dogmes-Physics-too-established-Institutions !

Your hardlabored Doings and Workings will be remembered and praised about !

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Doug1 on October 18, 2008, 01:05:11 PM
Wow this fanner magnet gizmo mentioned earlier is really cool. I've never seen one before. If I take two crispy cream donuts and place them on a really big horse shoe hummmm? I might be able to squeeze my way in to get my coffee at dunkin donuts.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 18, 2008, 03:16:27 PM
@Doug1

Unless you can produce the related math, some drawings, video and test results I can only assume you are a policeman.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 18, 2008, 03:53:18 PM
Hi all !

This stack fanner idea, except for Free Energy extraction (and lots of it) - cause magnetic field is free, can be used as it is without moving magnets as spring - very efficient magnetic spring or even dumper for automotive aplications...I mean there is no any possibilty magnet will ware off due to overcounterpolarization. Finally Magnetic Dumpers possible  :D  :D  :D...even extraction of energy (if made as variable reluctance - washer can go out of field) when bumping on the roads...tremendous possibilites with these thingees...or energy absorbers-redirectors when cars crash...

When someone builds a factory of such springs or dumpers send me a first Million of profit - this no joke at all, it is worth even more.

Still kicking some serious crap out of unbelievers asses. Stupid Unbelievers go away from this forum you are allways wrong.

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on October 18, 2008, 05:04:44 PM
Hi guys, I started reading this thread with a keen interest.  Then I got busy and haven't had the chance to come back to it till now.  I would like to offer an idea/opinion.  This is a very interesting concept but the main task is going to be how you alter the magnetic field across the washers (I guess I'll call them washers for now even though they can be just about anything - beads, metal donuts, etc.)  Although I'm not totally convinced that it maintains a constant inductance across the gap, it does appear that the inductance change is small.  It seems like everyone is trying to devise a way of using electromagnets to change the field.

So I would like to offer a different idea.  Have any of you ever used a magnetic base?  I work in laser research and we use these things a lot in our optical setups - they work well with our giant steel tables.  This Wikipedia page explains how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_base

When the V part of the holder is against steel, you can turn the diametrically magnetized magnet very easily.  However, if you hold it in air, you'll find it very difficult to turn the magnet to the "on" position.  Basically when a ferrous metal is bridging the gap to the V, it allows a path for the flux to flow in the "on" position and the magnet will spin very easily.

Well, this would suit this project perfectly!!!  If you placed your dowel rod with washers in the V part of this holder, then (assuming the inductance does not change much in the gap) the diametric magnet should be easily rotated.  As you rotate the magnet, the washers will move back and forth.  If the inductance is really constant, placing a load on the washers should not affect the magnet rotation.  I think you'll find this method very easy to construct and should work way better than an electromagnet.  I've included a picture of the setup for clarity - I have not tried this and don't really have the time.

If anything, this will quickly allow you to determine how the system works.  If the magnet is hard to move when the washers are forced in the "closed" position (aka heavily loaded), then this is not a constant inductance gap and probably would not produce overunity.  However, if the rotation is easy to spin regardless of washer loading, then we have a great step forward!

Hope it helps,
Charlie
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: carbonc_cc on October 18, 2008, 05:44:41 PM
Charlie_V:  Very intriguing.  I like the idea.  I will try and test with my previous setup later.   :)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TechStuf on October 19, 2008, 12:48:02 AM

Quote
Unless you can produce the related math, some drawings, video and test results I can only assume you are a policeman.

LOL

Speaking of donuts, I wonder what's the latest scoop on the Hadron collider?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 19, 2008, 03:06:19 AM
Huh? You mean that big TPU that crosses country borders?

<Speculation> I haven't checked lately but I would think they still haven't found the guy that hit the kill switch  :o </Speculation>
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TechStuf on October 19, 2008, 03:43:43 AM

Yeah, you'd think that for 10,000 Million dollars they could be slightly more responsible.

I hope I'm there to see it when that balance sheet is settled once and for all.

God:  So, you spent enough bills to reach to Mars to find the 'Me' particle?

Arrogant Peons: yeah, aren't we clever?

God: Surely, you are familiar with my Golden Rule...

Arrogant Peons: Of course, we learned that in grade school.  He who has the gold makes the rule, uh....right?

God: After appropriating enough money to feed the planet several times over, I'd hate for you boys to be disappointed, so I'm going to let you see the God particle, better yet, you'll get to BE God particles.  I'm sending you to a bottomless pit you refer to as a 'Black Hole'.

Have a nice trip and watch your step!

lol

TS
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 20, 2008, 12:37:23 PM
@charlie_V and all !

reminded me of magnet lifter which is used worldwide in many types of industry
knowone has yet determined here if these thingies can be used for something OU or not.
Nor are they made for maximum lifting moment or distance it can catch weight or for easilly switch the lever. (think the first applies)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3979.msg74303#msg74303

allso I have linear proposal

block with magnets moves left right, moving rectangular washers move yellow shaft (not completely drawn)
block with magnets can be long as You want (or can make it)
two or more blocks can be made in paralel.- two shafts
LaFonte driver and fanners should be made with silicon iron sheets or some other anti eddy current technic.

block of magnets is easily moved (small Mech friction)

not all rotational parts are drowen.

Wiz
Perihelion Labs
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 20, 2008, 04:38:39 PM
Hello to Honoured Overunity-Forum-Profiles
and to The Honoured Administrator  !!

important Discussions-points-and-details in this fruitfull
continued going-on Theme of Topic+Replies !!

Might I kindly disturb Your interesting Discussion by this
my mere brief short ReplyÂ´s-Text :

THE MAGNETICAL BASE  !!

Yes....I self have a filled-up Box of some various numbers of
various Magnetical-Base-Models of that Method mentioned some few Days
back  !!

HOW TO REALIZE AND INTERPRETE ABOUT THE FUNCTIONAL WAY
OF SUCH A MAGNETICAL BASE........:

**
WHAT is IN FACT going on when adapting-mounting to an EXTERIOR PLANE IRON-PLATE
such a Magnetical-Base-Unit..........
IT "CLAMPS" in Its LOCK-POSITION then as FIRMLY per H-influenses
in the EXTERIOR IRON-PLATE to the EXTERIOR IRON-PLATE.......!!

Well-then...as MOSTLY KNOWN :
WHAT a LOT of counter-force to be performed by Human Fingers
to would loosen-away in LOCK-POSITION......several hundreds of "newtons".....at least...
.............or more at most !!

**
THOUGH THEN IF TO SHOULD LOOSEN-AWAY BY TURNING FROM ON->to->OPEN
Position then THE ARMÂ´s HANDLE on The Unit.......
Yes.....THERE ALSO IS A "FELT" COUNTER-FORCE AGAINST TURNING FROM
LOCK->to->OPEN........
might be easily measured per an elder "Spring-Weight" mounted and held steady as
perpenducular to the UnitÂ´s-Release-Arm..........

**
MIGHT THERE EVENTUALLY BE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
[NECESSARY-TORQUE APPLIED TO UnitÂ´s-Arm  x  Way/Angle-Distance of turned UnitÂ´s-Arm]--
Physical-Work-Done
AND
THE
[NECESSARY-GREAT-LIFTING-FORCE FROM IRON-PLATE x The VERY-SHORT-Lifting-Off
Iron-PLate-distance]--
Physical-Work-Done....................!!

**
When lifting as "raw-forced" OFF the Unit directly from IRON-Plate ,
THEN is on for a VERY SHORT DISTANCE a necessary HIGH Force to
should apply.......
then afterwards only little Force of H-magnetical Origin (plus then eventually some
(otherwise Gravitational Force because of
also lifting The Unit in a G-Field )

**
NOW WHEN LOOSENING PER TURNING UnitÂ´s Arm from ON->to->OFF....
then the ROTATIONAL PERMANENT-MAGNETEÂ´s respective 2 H-Poles
(Terms of Elder Classical Magneto-Statics)  are moved many
[little "angle-step--to-step"] AWAY "over" "longer" Distance/Angle
from The UnitÂ´s Own 2 INTERNAL-Iron-permeabilities-
Plates (Plates of not of permanent magnetism) ]..........
though STILL a WORK is done of TURNING FROM ON->to->OFF ,
namely the Part of a H-pole as being moved AWAY from the H-influensed
IRON-PLATES in THe UNit ......
somehow like in surden Electro-Motors-Layouts-TOPOLOGIES / METHODS !!

**
In a Way of Popular Physics Explanative Speakings ....THEN :

in a "subtle" Way there is a kind of "Magnetical Gearing" of Necessary Applied
Forces all depending on  :

IF per the "RAW" directly PULLING-OFF THe Unit from the EXTERIOR LARGE
IRON-METALS-PLATE

or

IF per the more "continuously" Necessary- Applied Force of the
INTERIOR-THe-Unit  H-poles-moving-away-from-opposite-signed-H-pole !!

**
Some few numbers of Processes-Steps-depicting
Elementary Sketchings would "GREATLY" demonstrate
the ALL of such a Magnetical-Base-UnitÂ´s Method !!

MUCH MORE QUICKER TO REALIZE ABOUT THAN NUMEROUS MANY
EXPLANATIVE SENTENCES !!

**
APROPOS :
HOW ABOUT TO HAVE IN-BE-TWEEN THe Magnetical-Base-UnitÂ´s Outer-H-Poles(of the ON-Position)
and
THE EXTERIOR LARGE METALLICAL-IRON-PLATE
then placed a single thin A4-writing/printing-on Paper-Sheet....
quite enough to demonstrate
necessary "RAWLY"-applied-Force to MOVE AWAY
The UnitÂ´s Outer-H-poles to Exterior Metallical IRON-PLate
.........to say : WITH or WITHOUT having such a SINGLE A4 paper-sheet in-be-tween.......!!

AND THEN ALSO TO DEMONSTRATE AN ALTERED NECESSARY TURNING-TORQUE
TO THE UnitÂ´s Arm to TURN from ON->to->OFF  !!
.........to say :  WITH or WITHOUT having such a SINGLE A4- paper-sheet in-be-tween....!!

--------------------------

THANKS ABOUT YOUR  MANY INTERESTING IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTIONS
TO THIS CONTINUED DISCUSSION OF OU-per-Magneto-Statics and per Electro-Magnetics...!!

PLEASE MENTION EVEN MORE....of course with due Care for Your various Own Ideas and

-------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Labouring Week and a pleasant Late Autumn !

And still a little to early to would greet about : Hoo-Hooo.........etc !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on October 20, 2008, 05:17:44 PM
@wizkycho

The idea at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3979.msg74303#msg74303 with the holder/lifter and the coils will not work because the back EMF from the coil will make it very difficult to rotate the diametric magnet in the center.  That's why I think it would be perfect for this project since the inductance change between the gap is "suppose" to be equal all the time.

Your idea of using the ring like you show in your picture is good but the problem is that the magnet/core things are not going to leave the washers very easily.  This will cause all the energy gained from the pistons to be lost due to magnetic stiction.  You might be able to balance the movement of the magnet/cores with a second row/piston setup that was to the side and 90 degrees out of phase with the first.  Personally I think keeping the magnets inside the core and just rotating them like I drew would give the best results.  And really, I'm not convinced this setup has constant inductance - if it does we could possibly get overunity, if not then its a lost cause - another energy converter.

@newton2

Cocaine is a really bad drug man.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 20, 2008, 07:41:55 PM
@wizkycho
A combination of the rotating magnet and the pistons you drew are the best idea I've seen yet.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Yucca on October 20, 2008, 08:09:10 PM
Yes, nice design Wiz!

Yucca.
Title: Saturation is paramount in this design
Post by: Butch on October 20, 2008, 10:21:18 PM
To keep the core flux density of this device as constant as possible during the period the moving elements are moving, saturation is very important. It's hard for the flux density to change in the coil core if the core circuit stays at saturation.
More video coming soon, I have around 5000 files to sort through.
Free energy for all,
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 20, 2008, 10:29:35 PM
Hi guys, I started reading this thread with a keen interest.  Then I got busy and haven't had the chance to come back to it till now.  I would like to offer an idea/opinion.  This is a very interesting concept but the main task is going to be how you alter the magnetic field across the washers (I guess I'll call them washers for now even though they can be just about anything - beads, metal donuts, etc.)  Although I'm not totally convinced that it maintains a constant inductance across the gap, it does appear that the inductance change is small.  It seems like everyone is trying to devise a way of using electromagnets to change the field.

So I would like to offer a different idea.  Have any of you ever used a magnetic base?  I work in laser research and we use these things a lot in our optical setups - they work well with our giant steel tables.  This Wikipedia page explains how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_base

When the V part of the holder is against steel, you can turn the diametrically magnetized magnet very easily.  However, if you hold it in air, you'll find it very difficult to turn the magnet to the "on" position.  Basically when a ferrous metal is bridging the gap to the V, it allows a path for the flux to flow in the "on" position and the magnet will spin very easily.

Well, this would suit this project perfectly!!!  If you placed your dowel rod with washers in the V part of this holder, then (assuming the inductance does not change much in the gap) the diametric magnet should be easily rotated.  As you rotate the magnet, the washers will move back and forth.  If the inductance is really constant, placing a load on the washers should not affect the magnet rotation.  I think you'll find this method very easy to construct and should work way better than an electromagnet.  I've included a picture of the setup for clarity - I have not tried this and don't really have the time.

If anything, this will quickly allow you to determine how the system works.  If the magnet is hard to move when the washers are forced in the "closed" position (aka heavily loaded), then this is not a constant inductance gap and probably would not produce overunity.  However, if the rotation is easy to spin regardless of washer loading, then we have a great step forward!

Hope it helps,
Charlie
Charlie,
Great idea!
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 21, 2008, 02:34:07 PM
This stack fanner idea, except for Free Energy extraction (and lots of it) - cause magnetic field is free, can be used as it is without moving magnets as spring - very efficient magnetic spring or even dumper for automotive aplications...I mean there is no any possibilty magnet will ware off due to overcounterpolarization. Finally Magnetic Dumpers possible  :D  :D  :D...even extraction of energy (if made as variable reluctance - washer can go out of field) when bumping on the roads...tremendous possibilites with these thingees...or energy absorbers-redirectors when cars crash...
Well yeah, that was clear from the start.
But that's something completely different from the idea you have so aggressively been pushing over the past weeks,
where you claimed that it is possible to produce 50:1 overunity by moving the magnets to and fro.

Quote
When someone builds a factory of such springs or dumpers send me a first Million of profit - this no joke at all, it is worth even more.

Still kicking some serious crap out of unbelievers asses. Stupid Unbelievers go away from this forum you are allways wrong.
Mwahaha raaaaaight.... And you dared to accuse me of pompous posts? LMAO :D

But really, you were so very adamant that you can produce 50 times the input energy using this "fanner" principle,
but you still haven't shown it. Shouting very loudly that you are convinced it is so is no proof. Show it.
Build a simple setup in which the elements you indicated as crucial are incorporated, so there's the washer stack,
the magnets, the mechanism to move the magnets, and the magnetic equilibrium mechanism, and your piston,
and the collector coils, and then input an X amount of energy and show that you measure 50X the output energy.
Do that, and I shall graceously admit that I was wrong in doubting your claims and attitude.
But keep shouting "it is so!" with zero empirical foundation, and I will just keep replying "I don't think so". :)

[/quote]
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 21, 2008, 04:39:25 PM
@wizkycho

The idea at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3979.msg74303#msg74303 with the holder/lifter and the coils will not work because the back EMF from the coil will make it very difficult to rotate the diametric magnet in the center.  That's why I think it would be perfect for this project since the inductance change between the gap is "suppose" to be equal all the time.

Your idea of using the ring like you show in your picture is good but the problem is that the magnet/core things are not going to leave the washers very easily.  This will cause all the energy gained from the pistons to be lost due to magnetic stiction.  You might be able to balance the movement of the magnet/cores with a second row/piston setup that was to the side and 90 degrees out of phase with the first.  Personally I think keeping the magnets inside the core and just rotating them like I drew would give the best results.  And really, I'm not convinced this setup has constant inductance - if it does we could possibly get overunity, if not then its a lost cause - another energy converter. seems like only mech friction to overcome, very very good.

In any such rotating lifting magnet there is need to be kind of mechanicall cog (that mech cog mechanism reqiure very small and always constant E in - no matter number/strenght of mags) that will when magnet gets in position assure it will stay in that position while fanners are done with work. Coils are here to (re)direct (rotate) magnet. What is very good thing here (and in your proposal is that rotating magnet in center needs to move only 90 degrees (if full cir.360 deg) and I allso am very sure that for that is needed very small energy scince fanner - "WEIGHT" (it would be if lifter) is allways there (same and available inductance).seems like only mech friction to overcome, very very good.

LaFontefanners_by_knitel
magnet core pair (moving left-right) are moving in linear (what ring ???) fashion will move very easily cause gap between two closeest fanner stacks is only 1mm flux easily bends-jumps over that short distance. it will move exactly the same as if fanner stacks are connected - no cog at all. I tried this and 1mm gap moving magnet doesn't feel at all. just pure mech friction needed to overcome.
(nothing is supposed to be in satturation here)

I still  can not decide which is better rotating cilindrical magnet type or my proposed linear moving magnet core pair ?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 21, 2008, 05:32:14 PM
Hello Honoured  OverUnityForum-Profile        Charlie_V  !!

against Alcoholics and Drugs , etc !!

I also warn against such Destructive Matters & Means !!

WKR & have Yourself a nice Day and a pleasant Late Autumn  !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 21, 2008, 09:42:02 PM
I like the rotating magnet idea because a line of these magnets would fit nicely onto one shaft and then you just need to rotate the shaft.
I'm just not sure if the magnetic field will obey us and follow the iron core around to were we want the most concentration of magnetism.
When the magnets are placed directly beside the washers the field has no choice but to pass through the washers from pole to pole.
But once you try to bend and redirect the field it may choose a different path.

Has anyone experimented with different thicknesses for the washers to see what would be ideal.
Is it better to have many thin washers or fewer thicker washers?
Also what size of magnets are we looking at here?
Could we use a number of smaller magnets placed in a row or should we use single large surface area magnets?

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 21, 2008, 10:54:43 PM
Well yeah, that was clear from the start.
But that's something completely different from the idea you have so aggressively been pushing over the past weeks,
where you claimed that it is possible to produce 50:1 overunity by moving the magnets to and fro.
Mwahaha raaaaaight.... And you dared to accuse me of pompous posts? LMAO :D

But really, you were so very adamant that you can produce 50 times the input energy using this "fanner" principle,
but you still haven't shown it. Shouting very loudly that you are convinced it is so is no proof. Show it.
Build a simple setup in which the elements you indicated as crucial are incorporated, so there's the washer stack,
the magnets, the mechanism to move the magnets, and the magnetic equilibrium mechanism, and your piston,
and the collector coils, and then input an X amount of energy and show that you measure 50X the output energy.
Do that, and I shall graceously admit that I was wrong in doubting your claims and attitude.
But keep shouting "it is so!" with zero empirical foundation, and I will just keep replying "I don't think so". :)

Hi koen1 !

which setup would you recommend me to build:
- with rotating cilindrical magnet (charley_Vs proposal)
- or linear moving magnet-core pair proposed by my drawing
- or Simple to build Hildebrand but magnetic transistor type motor (MEP_motor - magnetic energy pump motor)
- or Genesis Type of magnetic trans motor
- or just tell me what type of device you prefere.

or nothing above has chance of giving FE

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Kevin Mc Carthy on October 22, 2008, 12:48:40 AM
Advise welcome. I would like the groups advise on a proposed V design magnet build. I was thinking a N42 3/4" by 2" cylendar magnet between two steel plates drilled for the magnets accomodation with a 1/2" gap filled with aluminum. The washer section would be surrounded by steel with the exception of the 1/2" gap. The washers would be thin and strapped ( epoxy) together in 2 sections perhaps 1/2"thick.

The object would be to 1) transfer rotational force to rectolinear force, 2) measure the input and output forces, strokes and distances, 3) calculate input to output work, 4) report results.

Prior to starting what recommendations do you have?
Title: Re: You should really take a look at this
Post by: g4macdad on October 22, 2008, 02:30:02 AM
Hi Dave S. and Butch,
great to hear that you both finally have come to the conclusion that
has put it out  9 years ago.

As Dave did not know this and Butch did put out so many designs,
which many of them lacking a good andwell explained descriptions, it is no wonder,
that is was ignored for so long.

As Dave realized this principle on his own and told me
put it out 9 years ago, I was baffled when I learned it later
from Dave and Butch, that it was already out.

he still wanted to get a patent about the basic idea and then he
learned from Butch, that it was already in the public domain.

Now it is good to see, that many people can use this and Dave still
can patent his own work for real machines based on it, so he at least
gets some reward for all his simulation work which he showed me in parts privately.

I think he has proven with his FEMM simulations that this principle is
THE BREAKTHROUGH in "cracking the magnetic code", how Dave called it
and is the most promising principle
of an overunity motor.

Too bad, Butch did not explain it better 9 years ago, so more people
would have understood it and already worked on this long time ago.

But anyway, now as it is out, this is the best "new"(old) magnet overunity motor
principle ! ;)

Regards, Stefan.

With all due respect Stefan, that is the biggest lump of double talk mumbo jumbo I have ever read.  ???
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Discworld on October 22, 2008, 11:17:28 AM
@Stefan

I want to comment with something a little offtopic, I know it is easier to keep some action in a board by dropping in headlines like this "Cracking the Magnetic Code ! OU motors with a 50:1 output:input now possible !"

But honestly thats a very unreliable yellow press style.

In my eyes this actually is just another "working" theory not more not less. When I read stuff like that:

>> Q. How many others have replicated the effect so far?
A. "Yes, one that I know of, but has asked to remain anonymous due to fear of action from big oil against himself and family." <<

everything about it turns noncredible to me. What would be the easist way to prevent action from big oil? Release a working plan to the world.

Would you tell the world if youÂ´d have invented the gold replicating machine? No you would not.

1. Someone lives on a higher level than capitalism and believes he could help the world. This one would release a working plan of such a machine.
2. Someone believes in money. This one would never release a working plan to the world.
3. Someone has a theory but it is nothing more than a theory. This one is releasing the idea to the world in hope that someone makes it a working machine.
In fact it might work but he forgets that the one who makes it a working machine probably wonÂ´t ever release his plans unless he is type 1.

So ishouldnÂ´t the headline say: OU motors with a 50:1 output:input now THEORETICALY possible !
To be serious.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 22, 2008, 02:01:28 PM
But really, you were so very adamant that you can produce 50 times the input energy using this "fanner" principle,
but you still haven't shown it. Shouting very loudly that you are convinced it is so is no proof. Show it.
Build a simple setup in which the elements you indicated as crucial are incorporated, so there's the washer stack,
the magnets, the mechanism to move the magnets, and the magnetic equilibrium mechanism, and your piston,
and the collector coils, and then input an X amount of energy and show that you measure 50X the output energy.
Do that, and I shall graceously admit that I was wrong in doubting your claims and attitude.
But keep shouting "it is so!" with zero empirical foundation, and I will just keep replying "I don't think so". :)

Hello Koen1

I'm with you in this matter and I have thought a lot about it lately and I think I have found the reason why it won't work.
As usually when people go crazy over something and totaly believe they have found the holy grail they always miss
out on something that "they didn't think of". And that scenario is repeated every time. Sometimes thinking is of good use.

The thing is: A setup using a line of washer piles placed between a moving horseshoe magnet will have an unwanted effect.
The nearby piles will also get repelled by the magnet and it declines from the center of the strongest magnetic field, being the magnet.
The repel force from the washers will spread out on all affected piles of washers. And the accessible power is consumed by inertia.
So this is the nail in the coffin on the washer idea...To bad, for a short while I really hoped we had something good going on here.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 04:39:01 PM
Hello Koen1

I'm with you in this matter and I have thought a lot about it lately and I think I have found the reason why it won't work.
As usually when people go crazy over something and totaly believe they have found the holy grail they always miss
out on something that "they didn't think of". And that scenario is repeated every time. Sometimes thinking is of good use.

The thing is: A setup using a line of washer piles placed between a moving horseshoe magnet will have an unwanted effect.
The nearby piles will also get repelled by the magnet and it declines from the center of the strongest magnetic field, being the magnet.
The repel force from the washers will spread out on all affected piles of washers. And the accessible power is consumed by inertia.
So this is the nail in the coffin on the washer idea...To bad, for a short while I really hoped we had something good going on here.

This is just your negative assumption ...where is your negative experiment ?

Why would mag. flux go sideways if direct path (shortest path) is not satturated ?
Of course it wan't !!! It can not. flux chooses shortest possible path with less mag. resistance.

Even Spetrum 16k will tell You:
"C nonsense in basics"

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 22, 2008, 05:05:06 PM
I'm not negative, I'm realistic and I also know a thing or two about magnetic flux lines.
It will take the route past the other washer as well because ut tries to find the easiest path
that is the furthest away from saturation. Try it on and you'll see I'm right in this matter.
The only way to prevent the other washers from being affected is to increase the air gap
between the piles of washers, but then you'll face a sticky spot when trying to leave the pile.

When you have realised I'm right here, I expect a public excuse in this thread for all your
yelling, stubbornness and sassy behavior when told how things hang together.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on October 22, 2008, 06:17:29 PM
@wizkycho and @Ergo:

The soft iron core with the square washers in there really must be driven via a LC tank at the resonance frequency,
otherwise you will not get any high OU COPs.

Mechanically driving it with magnets makes not much sense to me.

Just try a coil with a cap and go for resonance at the same
frequency as the washers reciprocate.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: altium on October 22, 2008, 06:23:16 PM
Any results with real experiment?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 07:18:47 PM
I'm not negative, I'm realistic and I also know a thing or two about magnetic flux lines.
It will take the route past the other washer as well because ut tries to find the easiest path
that is the furthest away from saturation. Try it on and you'll see I'm right in this matter.
The only way to prevent the other washers from being affected is to increase the air gap
between the piles of washers, but then you'll face a sticky spot when trying to leave the pile.

When you have realised I'm right here, I expect a public excuse in this thread for all your
yelling, stubbornness and sassy behavior when told how things hang together.

No excuse cause you are teribly wrong.

Magnet flux doesn't act as electron current . Electron current will lineary of resistance devide its curents through two paths. complete magnet flux will not devide proportionaly(lineary) of mag resistance but whole of it will pass through one path with less resistance, while it has larger permeability.
big difference. You are talking complete nonsesne.
Permeability means most desireable path for mag flux. How can You possibly think that flux will jump over air that has perm of only 1 ?
rather than go through not saturated material of desireability 5000. Have You ever seen B-H curve ? no I don't think so. saturation starts sudenly not lineary. means mag. res. starts to be huge sudenly not linery with applied field. before that resistance of perm material is much much much lower than 1mm air gaps resistance
Hey man, this is 5000 to 1 that you are talking nonsens.(exprimentaly meassured !)

Why would magnet flux detour for a longer path for no reson (mag. res. didn't rise (not satturated) - on the other hand mag.res of 1mm air gap is huge) ?, only to make you happy that you destroyed logic. I think You should detour from this forum.

O man do think, please someone tell him to worm up his chair.

I can publicly only call for You to be banned from this forum, cause you say something is not working not giving it a slightes tought. what a destroyer. You are destroying this forum...this is clear.

And even more important you don't make any ,not even simplest experiments, to prove your "wannabe it is so" theories. You act destructively Man, how can't you get it, change your perspective and try from now on think Why something is working. This is important most of all. That way you will learn more. And You'll be able to combine principles that work into eventuall FE setup. The way You see things nothing can work. not even underunity devices.

Wiz

(some words and sentances, since I am civilized, were not appropriate in previous letters - so I'm making appology to others that read one of my
previous replays - but it was provoked too many times) This is not in anyway appology to whome these replays were directed to.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 22, 2008, 07:50:40 PM
Even if what Ergo says is correct, I don't see how it effects the overall concept.
No one said anything about placing the washers right next to each other in the system.
Just take two magnets and place them next to a stack of washers.
It doesn't take much distance to stop the effect.
Once I find the time I hope to build a small prototype of a concept I had in mind.
Just a simple demo setup.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 08:38:53 PM
Interesting to see Ergo and Koen1 incorporated but without experiment with negative result.Just BLA, BLA.
They are practically fighting fabric of Space itself and they are not aware of it....placing walls, where there aren't any, just to be able to head bump them...well that's were the world is now, so nothing new.

I still am well assured that this can do 50 or 100 to 1

why:

(this all aplies for one slide move of magnets and nothing is saturated)

- permeable flux from magnets is free,
- we can put as much magnets as we want/can and not influencing base mechanicall friction to rise in manner more magnets more friction.
so mech friction is constant
on other hand output lineary rises with number of magnets.
- no sticky points when moving magnets (flux always has same short permeable way to close upon other pole, bending (doesn't go through air if it doesn't have to ;D) very slightly(unmeassureable small force - 1/1000th of force that magnet develops on fanner) when passing 1mm gap.
- if many magnets are used (mass rises) free spring action can be used for slide back and preserving mass velocity momentum and convert vector for 180deg (if full cir. 360deg) lowering input requirements even more.

:D :D :D

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 09:18:16 PM
Hello Koen1

I'm with you in this matter and I have thought a lot about it lately and I think I have found the reason why it won't work.
As usually when people go crazy over something and totaly believe they have found the holy grail they always miss
out on something that "they didn't think of". And that scenario is repeated every time. Sometimes thinking is of good use.

The thing is: A setup using a line of washer piles placed between a moving horseshoe magnet will have an unwanted effect.
The nearby piles will also get repelled by the magnet and it declines from the center of the strongest magnetic field, being the magnet.
The repel force from the washers will spread out on all affected piles of washers. And the accessible power is consumed by inertia.
So this is the nail in the coffin on the washer idea...To bad, for a short while I really hoped we had something good going on here.

this is another replay on funny picture posted by Ergo (at least he could use some mag sim program that will show him different)

(everything here applies on never saturated material)
(rectangles between magnets are edges of permeable material - not air inside rectangles)

It is so that poles will close on each other in a red line fashion and only in that fashion.

in his Ergos world magnets will close flux with blue lines. Funny picture isn't it

it is as funny as watching cartoon Strippy (anyone seen this cartoon ?)

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 22, 2008, 09:21:30 PM
Mechanically driving it with magnets makes not much sense to me.
Sorry, I was focused on the mechanically solution that wizkycho was pushing so hard.
If "driving it via a LC tank at the resonance frequency" solution makes any difference is yet to be seen.

Magnet flux doesn't act as electron current . Electron current will lineary of resistance devide its curents through two paths. complete magnet flux will not devide proportionaly(lineary) of mag resistance but whole of it will pass through one path with less resistance, while it has larger permeability.
I have never mentioned this mix up. This is your interpretation of my words.
I know exactly how flux lines travel and interact. Don't put words in my mouth I have never spoken.

Permeability means most desireable path for mag flux. How can You possibly think that flux will jump over air that has perm of only 1 ?
Simply because the washers can't handle the flux from the nearby neos. In order to handle all the flux the washers must be just as
wide and high as the neos, namely a solid block of iron. Let's say the washer area is half the height of the neo area.
This means that the flux of approx 1.36 tesla is driven to 2.72 tesla if all of the flux should pass through the washers. But it can't.
It will stop at 1.7 tesla and seek another path. Why 1.7 tesla. Simply because this is where the saturation starts to have an effect.
Did you get that wizkycho? The washers have only HALF the area of the neomagnets. This is why the excess flux escapes the washers.
That crappy childish picture you posted above is just so wrong. You misslead people in magnetic understanding. It's bad. Please get educated.

Have You ever seen B-H curve?
In daily basis. It's part of my jobb. The correct name is actually B/H curve, not B-H curve.

I can publicly only call for You to be banned from this forum, cause you say something is not working not giving it a slightes tought. what a destroyer. You are destroying this forum...this is clear.
What kind of BS is this. You show your childish narrow-minded perception abilities by this statement.
I have never threatened you or been abusive. I have just told the true facts that you totaly refuse to believe or even consider.
When does a man destroy a forum by a sane logic discussion? It's you with your bad attitude that is destructive.

you don't make any ,not even simplest experiments, to prove your "wannabe it is so" theories.
I have made my fair share of experiments in my earlier days but once you get past the entry level of understanding
magnetics you can see in your mind how the outcome will become. This is when you truly can see the magnetic
interaction of a contraption in your mind because you know almost all parameters involved in the setup.
When you come to that level (if ever) we might be able to have a civilized discussion.

Not even Hartiberlin believes in your idea. Why is this so. Because his eduction level is good and he can see the flaw himself.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5064.msg133710#msg133710

I haven't provoked you once but you behave as I am the worst case of scum alive. I just told you some basic facts you rejected badly.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 09:51:01 PM
Sorry, I was focused on the mechanically solution that wizkycho was pushing so hard.
If "driving it via a LC tank at the resonance frequency" solution makes any difference is yet to be seen.
I have never mentioned this mix up. This is your interpretation of my words.
I know exactly how flux lines travel and interact. Don't put words in my mouth I have never spoken.
Simply because the washers can't handle the flux from the nearby neos. In order to handle all the flux the washers must be just as
wide and high as the neos, namely a solid block of iron. Let's say the washer area is half the height of the neo area.
This means that the flux of approx 1.36 tesla is driven to 2.72 tesla if all of the flux should pass through the washers. But it can't.
It will stop at 1.7 tesla and seek another path. Why 1.7 tesla. Simply because this is where the saturation starts to have an effect.
In daily basis. It's part of my jobb.
What kind of BS is this. You show your childish narrow-minded perception abilities by this statement.
I have never threatened you or been abusive. I have just told the true facts that you totaly refuse to believe or even consider.
When does a man destroy a forum by a sane logic discussion? It's you with your bad attitude that is destructive.
I have made my fair share of experiments in my earlier days but once you get past the entry level of understanding
magnetics you can see in your mind how the outcome will become. This is when you truly can see the magnetic
interaction of a contraption in your mind because you know almost all parameters involved in the setup.
When you come to that level (if ever) we might be able to have a civilized discussion.

Not even Hartiberlin believes in your idea. Why is this so. Because his eduction level is good and he can see the error himself.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5064.msg133710#msg133710

I haven't provoked you once but you behave as I am the worst case of scum alive. I just told you some basic facts you rejected badly.

What You just said is confirmation of my previous post. You do not understand how undesireable air path (desireability only 1) is for magnet flux especially if prolongs path - (not direct path) (side air 1mm gap.) it must allso go back through that gap now 2mm. there is no reason mag flux would do that.

washers together have more then enough material (surface) not to satturate. Natures Calculator is enormously fast it is clayirvoiant it knows the path in advance. It wan't allow to saturate one washer and then seek another. flux will devide equally through washers. none of those washers gets saturated and they still represents shortest path. that last sentance is enough to know that complete flux wan't go a stray.

But even if you do not see this let's say that air gap between rectangle washer stack and overlaping permeable metal is 0.25mm
this is possible.

still got You over 50 to 1  ;D   Nature and Space is astonishing in so many ways and You don't see Any of it.

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 22, 2008, 09:58:44 PM
You are truly unbelievable and ingnorant in your stubbornness. Now I'm being rude, but you deserve it.

DIDN'T YOU GET THAT THE RECTANGULAR WASHER PILE ONLY HAVE HALF THE AREA OF THE NEOMAGNET?
THIS MEANS THE FLUX WILL SATURATE THE WASHERS AND THE EXCESS FLUX  IS FORCED TO TAKE ANOTHER ROUTE.

Sorry for shouting but this is probably the only way to make wizkycho understand, but I don't think he will get it anyway.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 22, 2008, 10:19:15 PM
You are truly unbelievable and ingnorant in your stubbornness. Now I'm being rude, but you deserve it.

DIDN'T YOU GET THAT THE RECTANGULAR WASHER PILE ONLY HAVE HALF THE AREA OF THE NEOMAGNET?
THIS MEANS THE FLUX WILL SATURATE THE WASHERS AND THE EXCESS FLUX  IS FORCED TO TAKE ANOTHER ROUTE.

Sorry for shouting but this is probably the only way to make wizkycho understand, but I don't think he will get it anyway.

You are blind aren't you
look at the picture
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5064.msg133191#msg133191

washers together have bigger surface then magnets so they can not saturate Seeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You may shout but Space still works the same way, and says:

50:1 still very possible and you can't stop it  ....maybe you can find something else. I dout it, but I dare you, and rise You 1000

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on October 23, 2008, 12:03:28 AM
Aside from the current argument, has there been any other experimentation with purely mechanical or the coil setup?  As I understand, Yucca has been the only one that has started to build one.  I'm really interested in this promising setup...
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: scotty1 on October 23, 2008, 03:07:42 AM
I did some experiments....
I found that if you move the magnets closer than 2 mm to the iron, then the iron will change polarity.
In other words when the flux uses the iron as a path, then the iron is a different polarity than when the magnets are approaching the iron at say 10 mm distance.
If the N pole magnet approaches the iron, the iron end will be a S pole, but when the magnet is very close to the iron then the iron more or less becomes part of the magnet pole.
This is the base for the Wesley Gary motor.
I've tested it many times and the iron does indeed change polarity.
I used very fine iron laminations taken from a large electric furnace for my tests....I've got about 200kg of thin strips about 1 meter long....hahaha..I thought they might come in handy one day ;D
Scotty.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Ergo on October 23, 2008, 11:22:10 AM
washers together have bigger surface then magnets so they can not saturate Seeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then build the darn thing and learn I'm right in this matter.
Once built you might learn a thing or two and start seeing the whole picture instead of being so extremely narrow-minded.

I dout it, but I dare you, and rise You 1000
So you are a poker player. This explains your complete lack of logic and beliefs in success without ever questioning your own ideas.
It's just like a poker game for you. Bet on success agains all odds and you might win. But you won't win against mother nature.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 23, 2008, 02:58:35 PM
Ergo !!!

You gave ZERO right reasons why this would not work !!!!

This is search for ZERO point energy ... You mixed something up. Maybe that confuses You.

Still 50:1 very possible

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 23, 2008, 02:59:15 PM
@scotty1

Yes that's true.
And there is one crucial difference between Permanent Magnet and Magnetized steel (not saturated, and still in magnetic field).

I'll put above experiment in reference with my proposal of LaFontes linear Fanner machine:

- Permanent Magnet, although most of domains are orieneted in one direction, has even 20% of domains that are somewhat angled from Main Orientation. it has not homogen field by itself above some missaligned domains  - but it can be afterwards directed. homogenized with perm material or other pole of other magnet directly across first one....

next applies to fanner machine:
- When perm Metal is in homogen mag. field (of same width or littel smaller and metal not saturated) it develops polarity counter of what was applied to it (true). but domains in that steel are perfectly 100% aligned with main direction of field and field of magnets through metal is 100% homogen as long as this outer field is applied - so it can not affect adjanced steel or very little if in direct contact cause mag res will be slightly lower (see B-H curve), but none whatsoever if adjanced steel is distanced even slightly (1mm is even too big gap - no effect at all - can not be meassured)

When outer mag field is removed and if that Metal has remanence it will develop 20 or more % of not perfectly aligned domains. and even without will create nonhomogen field cause of nature of field itself and cause of property of AIR that unlike perm. materials HAS LINEAR B-H curve. flux lines tries to be distanced from one another as result they are spreding somewhat radially. For field of air core coil hardly can be said that any part of that field is homogen not even in center of coil, if core has perm. material core, field inside can be caracterised as homogen.

Conclusion:
1.Perm. Steel can be influenced with heterogen field (one magnet only one pole)
2.Perm Steel can be influenced with homogen field
(two magnets, attraction mode, on both sides of perm. steel, strenght such that not making it saturated)

only 2. has perfectly homogenized field inside perm. steel. In 1. perm material somewhat homogenizes field but flux lines still end up heterogen cause are seeking direction for another pole to close on it.
.......

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Elisha on October 24, 2008, 02:51:24 AM
We allready have a way to swith a strong field on off with low current, the joseph flynn valve.
also have a very effient way to convert a linear movement into a circular movement, the revetec.com trilobe crank.

The construction is: make a josehp flynn valve in "U" shape, in each extreme set a butch lafonte laminated expander, in the midle set the trilobe. Thats all Folks.

The working: turn on flynn valve to one extreme on (another extreme is automatically off) the laminated in this extreme is expanded (the another extreme is automatically compressed) and the trilobe rotate, next switch the flynn valve to the another extreme on.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 24, 2008, 10:36:33 AM
We allready have a way to swith a strong field on off with low current, the joseph flynn valve.
also have a very effient way to convert a linear movement into a circular movement, the revetec.com trilobe crank.

The construction is: make a josehp flynn valve in "U" shape, in each extreme set a butch lafonte laminated expander, in the midle set the trilobe. Thats all Folks.

The working: turn on flynn valve to one extreme on (another extreme is automatically off) the laminated in this extreme is expanded (the another extreme is automatically compressed) and the trilobe rotate, next switch the flynn valve to the another extreme on.

Many thanks for this linear to rotational conversion device . I only knew for piston on excenter of wheel type. Are there any other efficient linear to rotational motion converters ? maybe simpler ones

We have Flynn, Hilde Brand, JLNs - MEP, Genesis revolutionary methods for controling mag. flux.
These methods (although with different properties in different setups...) have one thing in common -  mag flux amplification at output... Magnetic field Transistor name is implied by itself. (hope You all will allow me to use it - for shortening and clearifing descriptions)

About device - could work but should be quality design, else cause of losses could end up underunity.

Magnetic field Transistor has amplification 2 - 5, Fanner mech output is 30% (not sure of this number, can it be more ?).
so Magnetic field Trans should be constructed to have amp. factor somewhere beyond 3.2 (for quality and precision design) or more for lot's of losses design.
This amp factor 3 - 4 is not hard to achieve cause alternative path is always available (Washers) - magnet field easily reroutes (doesn't have to search for distanced rotor...). This is one of the beautys with this LaFontes setup - predictability. Mag Trans Amp factor always guaranteed.

But even amp 5 could be insufficient cause electricity afterwards should be efficiently generated....and conected back to efficient electronics....to proove OU.

Here COP (if precission design) drops to 1.5 - 3.(but it is enough)

Darlington (cascade) Magnetic field Transistor proposal should be used... then COP can rise 5 - 10 and easily overcome losses.

I might be misscalculated here cause when alternative path in mag trans is available (washers can even be constructed to touch "mag path directors" and slide with low friction) mag amplification could have even greater factor - means lower E input is needed for whole setup to work....

Wiz
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 24, 2008, 07:10:08 PM
A source of parts may be an old AC clock motor.
These motors have a single coil wrapped around an iron core.
The motor rotor could be replaced by the cylindrical magnet
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 26, 2008, 11:50:39 AM
of
The Honourable OVERUNITY-DISCUSSIONS-FORUM !

Replies to Replies !

Might I kindly add a little mere text to the Discussions :

**** There are used a kind of MIXED THEORIES/THEOREMES when The
Honoured Profiles are technically arguing PRO-et-CONTRA..........
a "MIXTURE" of CLASSICAL MAGNETO-STATICS with CLASSICAL
ELECTRO-DYNAMICS and even moresome CLASSICAL MECHANICS
(when arguing using Theoreme of Virtual-Work-Force about altered H-Fluxes)

****The Properties of most of mu-r-permeabilities Materials are NOT quite as easy
i.e. "soft-iron-washers" might indeed still have MOST NON-Isotropical-Magnetical-Properties...
and WHAT are used of Magnetical-Materials in One Experiment performed by One Honoured Profile
hardly might be the SAME  of Properties used in a Similar/Nearly-Similar Experiment performed by Other Honoured Profiles !!

Even ferrites-materials-properties might greatly differ in basal mu-r-values and "iso-tropies" and satur-able/linear Means/"Behaviours".....!!

****When placing 2 "soft-iron-rods" parallel and close to Each-Other for
to would "obtain"
a "Push-away"-action caused by an APPLIED NEARBY LOCATED EXTERIOR H-Field

THEN "What" of H-magnetical-Theories/Theoremes to actually would "use" for to realize about the "Forces" etc.................
H-poles...........H-dipoles...........H-fields-patterns..........solenoidal-equivalences-situations....or what-elses.......................!!

****"INSTEAD" of THAT ATTEMPTED SPECIFIED Situation of 2 parallel soft-iron-rods located to should "push"-away-Each-Other because of H-influensed "H-poles" (if Magneto-Statically evaluated)
....
then HOW about some OTHER possible mutual locations of such soft-iron-rods to Each-Other....
and THEN to would specify/define/evaluate about "push or pull" because of H-actings...etc !!

****When having located 2 such soft-iron-rods nearby Each-Other ,
THEN there are some CRITICAL "Parametres-Finesses" to should "deal" with.....

for if TOO close to Each-Other ,
THEN perhaps might appear a PULL instead of a PUSH........

"WHY"......"because" of the mutually-building-up H-influenses-zones
in the soft-iron-rods .!!

****etc...etc.....to would discuss about.......at least mightsome "Force-Values"
be usable to would have in the Disdcussions.......namely the MEASURED
PULL or PUSH Forces Values between the soft-iron-rods when being H-influensed from an exterior H-field !

----------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Late Autumn/Early Winter and Benefits from Your
respective hardlabored Doings !

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 26, 2008, 04:11:11 PM
I am curious exactly how this animation works with the triangular shaped front and back.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AbbaRue on October 26, 2008, 08:28:17 PM
I was looking at the principles behind the Gary Magnetic Motor and thought it might provide some insight here.
The following website has the clearest diagram explaining the principle it's based on.
http://keelynet.com/energy/garyjohn.htm
Perhaps this concept could be utilized in operating the washers.
Only a small movement is required to turn the magnetic field off and reverse it's polarity.
And because the distance of travel is so short it can be moved very quickly.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: scotty1 on October 27, 2008, 08:45:27 AM
Hi all.
The best place for the Gary motor is Rexresearch...
That link above is a bit different.
http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm)

scroll down to Canadian Patent #10239.
The diagrams that show the effect are there.
They are the ones I tested.
I used a large U magnet, some iron, and a magnetized needle to show the pole changing.
I made the needle attract to the U magnet prong...then when the iron was say 3mm from the magnet, the needle would repel from the iron....so the iron was actually being induced by the U magnet.
When the iron was  lowered closer to the magnet then the needle would stick to the iron, showing that the iron had changed polarity.
By again slightly raising the iron, the needle would again be repelled by the iron showing that the iron was again under magnetic induction from the U magnet.
Cheers
Scotty
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 27, 2008, 02:45:54 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
The Administrator of this The OverUnity-Forum !

as mentioned in Replies to eplies in this continued going-on
Pro-et-Contra Technical ForumÂ´s Chapter !!

Might I kindly briefly shortly write these few aspects-points :

****The socalled GARY-MOTOR-Principle is about to would "use" the
socalled GRADIENTES of the H-magnetical Field............!!

****YES......the Math-Integral performed over a CLOSED-LOOP of
Classical Mechanics/Magneto-Statics  [ Force x Way ] -Work caused by
acting of H-Forces (-Lines)  to a socalled "H-PoleÂ´s Charge"...........!!

****Well-then.............
the often troublesome "Circumstance" about HOW to WOULD AVOID
to get building-up a kind of (for OU-actings) )NON-usable EXTRA-
H-influensed local multi-many H-dipoles in the mu-r-permeability-
material......................and ALSO the troublesome
Hystereses-properties of some various mu-r-materials..........!!

in this continued going-on Chapter in this OU-Forum !

How about ALSO to would in brief ways discuss about ENHANCED IMPROVED
Electro-Motor H-poles-Topologies for BETTERING the "Torques" and
"stray-fields"  Problematics , etc !!

OU in terms of the Original TopicÂ´s Theme......etc !!

------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day andapleasant Late Autumn/Early Winter
and Fruitfull Experimental Results and Benefits from Your respective Hardlabored Doings ! !

obtain OU-Actings !!
Title: Videos, early tests of our rotary version perpendicular magnetics principle
Post by: Butch on October 27, 2008, 07:34:28 PM
I found some early videos of Marks tests of a rotary version of the our perpendicular magnetic principle.
Notice all that is needed is a proximity sensor and coil on/off switch to get full 360 degree rotation.
Also, we have a very interesting video coming in the next few days.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
http://www.fdp.nu/shared/files/ButchLaFonte/Perpendicular%20Magnetics/RotaryPM.mov

http://www.fdp.nu/shared/files/ButchLaFonte/Perpendicular%20Magnetics/RotaryNoSideBars.mov

Post by: Butch on October 28, 2008, 02:29:10 AM
This guy is an electronic genius, we are so lucky to have him in The LaFonte Group.
Thanks, Butch

Hello Mr. Lafonte

Thanks for contacting me again. I am glad to hear you have had success. I have talked to several individuals now have contacted me telling me that they have had recent success in their respective projects. The magnetic effect you guys are taking advantage of has been documented by many of the turn of the century thinkers. Actually Nicola tesla attributed the explosion of thin wires with high amperage currents to this very phenomenon (when the repulsive force of repulsion exceeds that of cohesion the wires blow up). Also it was noted by Walter Russell that magnetism has been wrongly observed noting that it is the repulsive expanding force of the electrical oscillation rather than the cohesive generating force of capacitance. These descriptions fit together nicely, and make sense when one realizes that Tesla and Russell talked. I have to give you kudos though for making use of this in engine form, clever and well done.

While most of my work is in solid state, I am quite versed in various forms of motive power and motor design in general. As you have probably guessed, the ressonance concept could have great implications on your repulsion technology IF the designs are constructed to keep inductance of the powering coil constant (you cannot have varying inductance.

Second comment >

Hello

Thank you for the invitation,

The effect you are describing is an interesting one indeed. A long forgotten enlightened man Walter Russell observed at the turn of the century noted that science had the magnetic field observed backwards. That in reality it is one half of the electric cycle, representing the disintegration, or dispersing or repulsion. This is a more accurate model when one thinks about what happens inside a natural conductor. For example, when a wire is used to conduct a current, all magnetic domains will be aligned in one direction meaning they will have mutual repulsion. This was observed in the same era by Tesla when he exploded thin wires. The magnetism (repulsive force) became greater than the cohesive force of the material and it flew apart.

This confuses many people because we are taught that magnets attract also. But when one things of them as a dipole, or having two opposite poles pushing away from one another (otherwise they would meet in the center of the magnet which they do not) things make more sense. If the poles are trying their best to get away from one another introducing two magnets together will cause them to attract. The result is that the poles are now able to move further apart, and the central plane where they met is now the equator of neutrality and in their meeting they have become one magnet. Thus attraction evolves out of the repulsive force of magnetism.

Your use of this in motor form is very clever, I tip my hat to you sir.

This is especially useful if you take into consideration the polar opposite of the dispersive force of magnetism, capacity. The two are polar opposites in and of themselves and interchange in rhythm.

You could easily incorporate the concept you have been working on with what I have been introducing people to in the area of electrical resonance. There is no marriage between magnetism and electricity, they are one and the same making this an easy task. If you were to construct a design in which the movement of the plates is created by the action of a coil of wire, and you could construct it so that the inductance of that wire NEVER changes during the cycle of the engine, you would be in business indeed.

I would be glad to help you in this area. I am more of a solid state guy but have designed many motors taking advantage of similar concepts though lack machining skill to have them made.

I am also quite involved in a working model of an atom (what an OU device really should be, a copy cat of natures natural mechanism) and so don't have tons of time to throw into making other things. But, I would be more than willing to join your group and help give direction wherever I can.  There would be an ideal circuit to running your motors, and if you want I can help you guys whip something up.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 28, 2008, 12:49:16 PM
I watched the videos with surprise. Not surprised at the action by the parts but by the wonder of the experimenter.

When all three parts are installed the middle one pivots because it can and all three are the same polarization. Of course the middle one pivots. It is then they all become magnets of the same polarization. So they repel.
When only the middle one is the only one there it has nothing to repel from on the sides so it remains aligned with the field lines it creates between the poles of the electromagnet.

Exploding wires? Anyone with experience in high power conductors will laugh at this idea. They don't explode. They implode. When the surface area becomes too small to radiate the generated waste heat the wire will vaporize if the current is allowed to continue.

For those thinking heat is a slow process you are in the wrong business.

This is also how to shrink coins, pop cans and how most fuses work.

Exploding because currents of like polarity repell? I'm sorry but gimme a break.

Like charges travelling parallel to each other attract. In the extreme they will cause the conductor to compress or implode.

While magnetism and electricity are bound together as one they are 90 degree opposite sides of the same shrinking coin.

I'm not making this statement to rain on the parade. I would like to see it reach the finish line. Shooting off on tangents like previously posted will prevent success.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Sudonym on October 28, 2008, 05:06:18 PM
Oh man, I guess someone should step in and settle this.

Like charges DO REPELL, Wires DO explode due to large currents, and coin crushers are NOT the same thing.

Case in point:
"When the spark gap fires, current rapidly climbs in the work coil, and the rate of change may approach five billion amperes/second. As the work coil current increases, it creates a rapidly increasing magnetic field within the work coil. The natural resonant frequency of the LC circuit that's formed by the capacitor bank and the inductance of the work coil ranges between 8 to 12 kilohertz (kHz). Through electromagnetic induction ("transformer action"), a huge circulating current is induced within the coin. However, because of skin effect, most of the induced current is confined to the outermost rim of the coin, typically penetrating to a depth of only 0.050 inches or less. In clad coins, most of the circulating current actually flows within the better conducting copper center of the clad sandwich than in the outer layers. This causes the center of clad coins to shrink a bit more than the outermost layers, leading to an "Oreo Cookie" effect. Because of Lenz's Law, the magnetic fields of the coin and work coil strongly oppose each other, resulting in tremendous repulsion forces between the work coil and the rim of the coin. The circulating current in the rim of the coin prevents most of the magnetic field from the work coil from penetrating the interior of the coin."

Another quote:

"Because this energy is discharged in approximately 20 millionths of a second, the instantaneous power is very large and, for a brief instant, is roughly equivalent to the electrical power consumed by a good sized city. The repulsion forces between the work coil and the coin create tremendous radial compressive forces that easily overcome the yield strength of  the metal alloys in the coin, causing the coin to plastically deform into a smaller diameter. "

Its our old friend Lenz in these cases, and this is a COMPLETELY different phenomenon that what is happening with the wires, which was actually stated correctly before the comment above.

from...Magnetism in dense hexagonal iron
Gerd Steinle-Neumann,*â€  Lars Stixrude,â€¡ and Ronald E. CohenÂ§

in reference to iron in a magnetic field "magnetism tends to expand the lattice and increase the compressibility as compared with the nonmagnetic state."

Some pictures

These are NOT pictures of implosions. Pieces are strewn about all over the place after the event.

I mean it is possible that one of the most observant and brilliant electrical engineers of all time accidentally mistook an implosion for an explosion, but it would be a stretch.

I believe it is important that people be concice and correct in what they state. People should not have to take time out of their day to correct bad information of others. If left unchecked however, people tend to believe what they read rather than check it out themselves. I do not want to put others down, but doing the required work, and understanding the forces involved in a logical well thought out way is important to understanding. The repulsion of magnetism within wires is well documented and shown to students in most entry college physics classes. Can crushing is a demonstration of lenz law and repulsion between two seperate inducing entities.

I would like to applaud people for crying foul when they see it. but be damn sure it is what you think it is, or you ruin your own reputation.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Sudonym on October 28, 2008, 06:26:56 PM
double post sorry
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Sudonym on October 28, 2008, 10:49:33 PM
Got bored so i thought I would really drive this one into the ground. Actually I realized why people may get confused after reading BEP's post again. Please see the following video....

Upon viewing this one might think........well that disproves everything sudonym said! they will implode!

Actually if you remember back to your physics basics you would apply the right hand rule. Thumb would point in the direction of current flow. This would mean that the magnetic "poles" on the wire will be perpendicular to the direction of the current flow. That means that in parallel they will be north to south in the two wires and attract. But within the wire, all domains will be in the same orientation causing repulsion within the wire.

All you need to solve this little dilema is the right hand rule and some common sense.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TinselKoala on October 28, 2008, 11:08:44 PM
Wowsers. Nice photos. But unfortunately they do not prove that wires don't implode under high currents, as BEP says. I have done many wire explosion experiments, where I discharged approximately 0.3 uF at 60 kV, through a triggered air gap, into lengths of various wires mounted between recording paper on a platen. (I've exploded a few capacitors doing this too--very exciting indeed!)
This technique leaves a record, often very beautiful, of traces of the products ejected from the wire when it "explodes".
It appears to me that wires do implode, but of course stuff is still ejected violently, just in the opposite direction from what you might think.
Two very interesting things I saw, over and over in these experiments: First, when using enameled copper magnet wire (#44 or #46, very thin, in 6 inch lengths) very often the implosion would completely vaporize and eject the copper, but would leave behind, nearly intact, the empty tube of enamel insulation. Second, I often curved the wire in s-curves, between the paper sheets in the platen. The ejecta always left the wire on the outside of the curvature, and the inflection points, where the curves reversed, were clearly noticed because the ejecta flipped instantly to the other side of the wire.
Only a few times was I able to reproduce the "segmenting" of the wire that others, like the Graneaus, have reported. I think the inductances have to be precisely tuned to achieve segmentation.
I know I'm not describing this very well; I'll try to find some photos of my recordings and post them.
Anyway, in my experience wires implode if the current is high enough; this implosion can look like an explosion from far away, but recordings taken by the platen method seem to indicate implosions.
An explosion mechanism, or tension segmentation, would presumably operate by the Graneau's postulated Ampere tension; while implosion or pinch segmentation would seem to be in line with more conventional predictions of the Biot-Savart force law.
Or did I get that backwards?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 29, 2008, 12:52:01 AM
Like charges DO REPELL, Wires DO explode due to large currents, and coin crushers are NOT the same thing.

Only when they are not travelling together. Attraction increases with speed, close similarity between the charges and energy.

My statements are based upon experience with the use of bus bars in very high AIC switchgear systems. State what rules you wish. I can never claim to be correct 100% of the time but I'll change nothing in my previous post.

When a 250KAIC DC circuit breaker fails to open under a short circuit and the source of energy has over 200k instantaneous available the .25 x 4 inch 110 grade, silver plated copper bar shrunk so much it elongated the bolt holes upstream of the short circuit. The silver plating flaked off and the 4 inch portion distorted to less than 3 inches with no change in the thickness.
The distance increase between the positive and negative bars destroyed 4.5 inch Glastic isolators and 2 inch thick fiberglass sheeting.

The engineer was fired that same week and I've been designing these systems since - about 30 years.

Physics observations or not this is what happened.

Does anyone think CRTs explode because of the shrapnel they throw everywhere?

Great photos. I recognize them. Try placing two wires side by side with both ends shorted and bang them with a bit of current. Does the distance between them expand or contract? Yes, this isn't the same as a single conductor but any ideas of exactly how current flows through a wire are nothing but theory.

I was the one that had to replace the bus system. That was no theory.

BTW: The direction of elongation was the opposite of what would be expected if the bars simply stretched. Once removed the damaged bars measured the same length as originally installed.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: allcanadian on October 29, 2008, 08:52:34 PM
I think the problem here may be you are trying to compare apples and oranges and assuming they must be the same. I have found you cannot compare a DC discharge to an AC discharge, you cannot compare a generated discharge to either a capacitive discharge or an inductive discharge. You cannot compare a low voltage/high current discharge to a high voltage/low current discharge. Each has specific qualities and properties and imparts these to it's surroundings. In which case all of you may be right in your examples but you are wrong in assuming all energy states must produce the same effects.
Title: This video should get you to thinking, from Butch
Post by: Butch on October 29, 2008, 09:28:42 PM
Here is a video of a test Mark did.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
See top of page, Balance tip 2
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 29, 2008, 09:30:30 PM

In addition...who really knows what is possible in the field of energy, with our limited collective understanding of the subject matter...excuse the possible puns.

Regards...

Title: This video should get you to thinking, second video
Post by: Butch on October 29, 2008, 09:35:11 PM
See
Balance tip 1 and 2
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 29, 2008, 09:43:13 PM
I think the problem here may be you are trying to compare apples and oranges

Agreed. There is a definite difference between AC and DC. The rest I'll assume is also correct as I've done fewer experiments within those ranges.

@Butch

Sorry to start the wars. I'm planning experiments that take the opposite approach from your posted direction. I'll be looking at a magnetic flux source seeking an ideal spacing between laminations. In other words: a laminated rotor with variations (ramps) in spacing. I can tell you now that moving the source from the compressed portion of the laminations to the gapped laminations and back to the compressed portion causes no variation in the magnetic flux.

If things work as I suspect only two magnets are required along with some detailed rotor design and zero circuitry. This won't be easy. If it fails it'll be nothing new.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 29, 2008, 10:08:31 PM

Exploration of new ideas is always the best course...that weay no stone is left unturned.

By the way...even the expressed differences of opinion have for me triggered new ways of looking at things.

Respectful disagreement is the way to understanding at times.

I have to say that like no other forum, its always with great anticipation and expectation, that I open a new thread on here, or watching for updates on the various builders latest efforts.

Regards...

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: empiricalobserver2012 on October 29, 2008, 10:12:42 PM
Steven Greer's AERO and Orion Project: sincere effort to usher in free energy or eloquent intel. front

Steven Greer, the chairman of The Disclosure Project, the organization founded in the early ninety nineties to disclose the presence of extraterrestrials and government suppression of evidence regarding the matter has taken on a newer, more daring escapade. This time, disclosing free energy technology to the world by presenting a robust , functional, closed loop, multiple kilowatt free energy device to the world, in tandem with a myriad of free energy inventors and a network of elite celebrities who are determined to see clean abundant alternatives into to the light. All this will be presented at a conference at the
National Press Club, in the same fashion as his famed 01 conference. The idea is to reach hundreds of millions, to make them aware that there are more clean alternatives than wind , geothermal and solar. He has stated that he is working on having a demonstrator unit built  and have it be duplicated and verified by at least three independent sources. So, we assume that there are no robust units available in the public domain and that this is the obstacle to the grand press conference. He founded two organizations in this light- a non profit- Orion Project- to develop technology  and a standard company- AERO(Advanced Energy Research Organization) for marketing. In addition to this, he has asked for the public to donate three million dollars for a research facility. He states repeatedly through radio talk shows and visual presentations that all free energy inventors needs to work with him because that's the only way they can get around the ardent suppression of the last 100 years. The suppression is without doubt but the fact of the matter is that there are numerous free energy machines in the public domain, robust , multiple kilowatt. They are few and far between , but the holders of these units would be more than happy to give Greer a unit if they believed he was sincere. Greer does not have to have it build and some have been on record for multiple decades and their validity is incontrovertible, already verified and either ready for production as is or on the
brink of it. It is doubtful that he is not aware of:

1. testatika 3kw self running, harnessing electrostatic energy, multiple units, ranging from 300 watts to 30 kilowatts have been running Meternitha ,Switzerland for the last 30 years

2. bedini generator 10kw, runs John Bedini's workshop lights, New Energy Series dvds

3. newman generator - has been on record for 20 years , validated by 40 professionals, Joe Newman  appeared on johnny Carson, and given wide media coverage, has videos on google video showing his machines work

4. Daniel Dingel water cars, on record since 1968, has multiple cars running on water for everyday driving and farm work, Daniel Dingel is not dead and his cars, which exist today are as functional as anything Stan Meyer came up with.

Based of of his cozy relationship with people like the Rockefellers( the illuminati) and his lack of action as far the obvious is concerned, it must be looked upon as a likely possibility that whole affair may be nothing but a trojan hose, keeping tracks on inventors  and keeping them from attempting anything on their own.this is not a novel concept, the Noetics Institute of Edgar mitchell is just that. On the other hand , free energy is not intangible such as aliens, and we are at the cusp of a totalitarian police state- the new world order- and free energy would disrupt that

i call upon governing members of the free energy movement, such as Sterling d Allan and Tom Beardan to look into this affair because something stinks
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 29, 2008, 10:15:43 PM

"I can tell you now that moving the source from the compressed portion of the laminations to the gapped laminations and back to the compressed portion causes no variation in the magnetic flux."
BEP,
We would like to see our test results replicated. Can you show on video with a scope that you get no change of flux in the coil core and the voltage stays steady?
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 29, 2008, 10:24:19 PM

...or they are still trying to figure out how to put a meter on the devices they already have.

An the "research money" Greer wants is really to pay the posse of 'meter minds' he will contract to hook up a meter...so they can make a seamless transition from having a hand in one pocket over to the other.

Regards...

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: molux on October 29, 2008, 11:06:59 PM
Hello Sirs,

I try to understand this principe but i'm not natural english speaker and it's hard to understand all you say.

1/ The setup
Do you think this kind of simple setup can be a good firt approch ?
Does the LC resonant frequency be calculated be near the idÃ©al rotation speed (in turn per second) ?

If i drive this setup with frequency generator (GBF) and choice a good capacitor for my coil i can easly Ã©valuate the input power
But how to simple mesure the output ?

Molux

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 29, 2008, 11:20:13 PM
BEP,
We would like to see our test results replicated. Can you show on video with a scope that you get no change of flux in the coil core and the voltage stays steady?
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Like I said 'zero circuitry'. I have a coil around one section of the stator for pickup purposes only. With my scope on 100mv/Div it barely registers when turned quickly by hand. If it shows continued promise I'll likely start another thread as it is nothing like what you've presented. Sorry, I'm busy enough proving to myself I am not an idiot so I rarely 'replicate' another's work.

Design is nowhere near complete. I need to include positioning screws for adjustments of axial/radial postion and balance. So far it looks like I'll have to beg for CNC time at work.

I'm doing all design on AutoCad with good measurements so once I can present it as useful or a complete mistake the info will be good.

Thank goodness this idea is in no way related to my previous works so I'll have no problems posting info. It uses part of the concept you proposed but includes others I haven't seen public before. I hope to have a POC to post by next week but can make no promises, yet. Then you can all tell me it is something done before but I seriously doubt it.

BTW: FEMM is useless on this.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: molux on October 29, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
Dear Sirs,

Do you think it's possible to evaluate the system with this kind of benchmark ?

We can mesure the electrique power input, and try different weigth to find the bigger the setup can push to up ?

Can you tell me if i completly misundurstand the concept ?

Molux

Edit: I  just find this great link to understand well the concept, great doc, thanks butch for open source :
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:LaFonte_Perpendicular_Magnetics_Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:LaFonte_Perpendicular_Magnetics_Motor)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 30, 2008, 02:21:32 AM
@Butch

If you haven't already I suggest you replace the rod holding the washers (tipping experiment) with something nonferrous and repeat the experiment.
I suspect the spreading washers increased the 'attraction zone and flux for the rod', between the magnets. This should also require more weights to cause tipping. 'Attraction zone' is not a formal term AFAIK.

This may start another battle but the washers, now magnets, focus more magnetic flux separated than compressed. This increase in flux concentration should also create a stronger pull on the horizontal rod. If the rod is nonferrous there should be no increase in focused flux and the distance between the washers should not be as great.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 02:34:07 AM
Like I said 'zero circuitry'. I have a coil around one section of the stator for pickup purposes only. With my scope on 100mv/Div it barely registers when turned quickly by hand. If it shows continued promise I'll likely start another thread as it is nothing like what you've presented. Sorry, I'm busy enough proving to myself I am not an idiot so I rarely 'replicate' another's work.

Design is nowhere near complete. I need to include positioning screws for adjustments of axial/radial postion and balance. So far it looks like I'll have to beg for CNC time at work.

I'm doing all design on AutoCad with good measurements so once I can present it as useful or a complete mistake the info will be good.

Thank goodness this idea is in no way related to my previous works so I'll have no problems posting info. It uses part of the concept you proposed but includes others I haven't seen public before. I hope to have a POC to post by next week but can make no promises, yet. Then you can all tell me it is something done before but I seriously doubt it.

BTW: FEMM is useless on this.
BEP,
Looking forward to posting of your progress.
Hope all goes well.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 02:35:35 AM
@Butch

If you haven't already I suggest you replace the rod holding the washers (tipping experiment) with something nonferrous and repeat the experiment.
I suspect the spreading washers increased the 'attraction zone and flux for the rod', between the magnets. This should also require more weights to cause tipping. 'Attraction zone' is not a formal term AFAIK.

This may start another battle but the washers, now magnets, focus more magnetic flux separated than compressed. This increase in flux concentration should also create a stronger pull on the horizontal rod. If the rod is nonferrous there should be no increase in focused flux and the distance between the washers should not be as great.
BEP,
The rod is non-magnetic stainless.
Butch
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 02:54:20 AM
Hello Sirs,

I try to understand this principe but i'm not natural english speaker and it's hard to understand all you say.

1/ The setup
Do you think this kind of simple setup can be a good firt approch ?
Does the LC resonant frequency be calculated be near the idÃ©al rotation speed (in turn per second) ?

If i drive this setup with frequency generator (GBF) and choice a good capacitor for my coil i can easly Ã©valuate the input power
But how to simple mesure the output ?

Molux,
I believe the rotary approach is the best way. Look at this video and tell me what you think.
Also, the best way to test this theory for true overunity is to use a scope to show that the supply voltage/current is constant when the rotor is moving and doing useful work.
Below is a link for the youtube rotary basic layout for testing the concept. It will need proximity switch added. The final product will need resonance element in design.
Feel free to write me if you have any questions. lafontegroup@charter.net
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
PS
Molux, my english is bad and I was born and raised here in the United States.

Molux

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 30, 2008, 03:47:05 AM
BEP,
The rod is nonmagnetic stainless.
Butch

Thanks for that info. So the metal is probably type 300. Likely 316 stainless steel? I used 316 stainless steel fasteners in one project and found the metal to have an effect on the shape of the field but only while moving within the field.

Still, I'm puzzled why there is so much difference in attraction to the magnets when compressed or released. If the rod was ferromagnetic it would explain it. Perhaps the washers are easier to saturate while compressed? Your test results would be unwanted when dealing with the laminated rotor I described above. I want no differences between compressed and expanded and have none but none of the early tests I did were as inventive as yours.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 05:08:01 AM
Thanks for that info. So the metal is probably type 300. Likely 316 stainless steel? I used 316 stainless steel fasteners in one project and found the metal to have an effect on the shape of the field but only while moving within the field.

Still, I'm puzzled why there is so much difference in attraction to the magnets when compressed or released. If the rod was ferromagnetic it would explain it. Perhaps the washers are easier to saturate while compressed? Your test results would be unwanted when dealing with the laminated rotor I described above. I want no differences between compressed and expanded and have none but none of the early tests I did were as inventive as yours.
BEP,
We are running more tests on this fixture, will let you know results. Also, this is another way to achieve overunity if configured correctly. We will try to explain in a video.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: MarkSnoswell on October 30, 2008, 09:44:11 AM
I just scanned the thread and was surprised that no one has realized the effect described is a macroscopic analog of negative magnetostriction.
The same effect you see in a stack of washers happens at a molecular level in most feromagnetic materials -- it is called magnetistriction. Materials like iron and cobalt have positive magnetostriction coefficients-- which means they elongate along the direction of magnetic field and shrink tangentially. Materials like Nickel have a negative coefficient and shrink lengthwise but grow tangentially to the magnetic field.

In a solid material you can tune magnetoeleastic effect to achieve magnetoacoustic resonance -- something that would be extremely difficult in the devices you are making.

Dating right back to Hans Coler's devices there is evidence that magnetoacoustic resonance is a viable method for generating excess energy.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: molux on October 30, 2008, 10:21:06 AM
Hy,

Quote
Molux,
I believe the rotary approach is the best way. Look at this video and tell me what you think.
Also, the best way to test this theory for true overunity is to use a scope to show that the supply voltage/current is constant when the rotor is moving and doing useful work.
Below is a link for the youtube rotary basic layout for testing the concept. It will need proximity switch added. The final product will need resonance element in design.
Feel free to write me if you have any questions.
Thanks a lot for information and help Butch

I just find your article on PESWiki, so interesting....
This setup, with coil correction (Horizontal vs vertical) and the length of magnet is a very good idÃ©a for mesurment.
(http://peswiki.com/images/0/0a/LAFONT_Magnetic_Motor_animation_300x300_by_Kevn.gif)
We can compute input and output with just voltmeter, ampermeter and frequency generator ...

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5064.0;attach=26950;image)
(I have this one)

Thanks a lot for all this interesting information Butch

Molux

Molux
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 30, 2008, 04:53:29 PM
Is that coil in the animated pic wound correctly?
Doesn't look like it...

But it would be nice to see someone do a real test on such a setup,
not just repeating the basic idea...
Has anyone tested the combination of this "magnetic spring"/"fanner effect"
with such a fairly simple "shakable flashlight" inductor?

It may be that the combination causes increased losses which were
not obvious in testing the seperate "magnetic spring" mechanism...

A bit like the effects that many people get when they try to close the loop
by using their apparent OU output as input again; For example, the MEG
principle appears to work quite nicely as long as the input and output energy
flows are not allowed to interact, but when they close the loop the thing stops working.

I'm not saying that this is necesarily going to be so in this setup, but I am saying
that I think this may need some actual testing to avoid nasty surprises like some

And you must admit that this setup is actually simple enough for people to build one,
so instead of remaining stuck in the theoretical discussion part of it, where's the
build attempts? There's none? That's odd... ;)
Title: I told Sterling Allen it was drawn incorrectly
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 05:12:13 PM
Is that coil in the animated pic wound correctly?
Doesn't look like it...
And you must admit that this setup is actually simple enough for people to build one,
so instead of remaining stuck in the theoretical discussion part of it, where's the
build attempts? There's none? That's odd... ;)
Koen,
The coil is wound Wrong. I told Sterling Allen that his animator drew it wrong and he said he would not change it. So it looks like it's stuck there forever drawn the wrong way. The wires should be wound horizonal in the illustration. It's very misleading the way it is now. It makes me look like I don't know what I'm doing. Maybe that was the purpose of it.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Koen1 on October 30, 2008, 05:39:42 PM
Butch,

I hadn't thought of that yet... indeed, it may be intended to make you look bad.
Not that it works, 'cause everyone who understands the concept will see that
the coil is wrong, and will know that it should be a normal "horizontal" coil.

Aside from that, do you really think such a setup would produce more
energy at that coil than it would need to cause the movement of the magnet
which causes the induction of that output?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 07:35:31 PM
Butch,

I hadn't thought of that yet... indeed, it may be intended to make you look bad.
Not that it works, 'cause everyone who understands the concept will see that
the coil is wrong, and will know that it should be a normal "horizontal" coil.

Aside from that, do you really think such a setup would produce more
energy at that coil than it would need to cause the movement of the magnet
which causes the induction of that output?

Koen,
Yes I do if it was operated at resonance.
Butch
Title: New layout for overunity from Marks test
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 07:38:41 PM
The work from expansion of the elements during approach would have to be recovered for closing them.
See attached drawing.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: You won't believe the video I'm uploading of test Mark did
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 09:09:32 PM
I will have it up in next hour. The ratio of pull in force to pull out force with the test fixture modified is amazing and we still have VERY many more ways to increase it.
Hang on,
Butch
Title: Look at this amazing video of test Mark did!!!!
Post by: Butch on October 30, 2008, 10:30:50 PM
I believe the work ratio can be increased as much as 4 times what you see in this video!
Enjoy,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on October 30, 2008, 11:08:48 PM
could you not make a coil around the washers themselves and see if they still spread and generate power at the same time or maybe have the washers as magnets instead like someone else suggested earlier in the thread?

not to piss on anybodies parade but this sounds like a worthy thing to look into...

-infringer-
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Sudonym on October 30, 2008, 11:34:33 PM
I just scanned the thread and was surprised that no one has realized the effect described is a macroscopic analog of negative magnetostriction.
The same effect you see in a stack of washers happens at a molecular level in most feromagnetic materials -- it is called magnetistriction. Materials like iron and cobalt have positive magnetostriction coefficients-- which means they elongate along the direction of magnetic field and shrink tangentially. Materials like Nickel have a negative coefficient and shrink lengthwise but grow tangentially to the magnetic field.

In a solid material you can tune magnetoeleastic effect to achieve magnetoacoustic resonance -- something that would be extremely difficult in the devices you are making.

Dating right back to Hans Coler's devices there is evidence that magnetoacoustic resonance is a viable method for generating excess energy.

It was noted earlier in my post, people didnt seem to like it though.

"from...Magnetism in dense hexagonal iron
Gerd Steinle-Neumann,*â€  Lars Stixrude,â€¡ and Ronald E. CohenÂ§

in reference to iron in a magnetic field "magnetism tends to expand the lattice and increase the compressibility as compared with the nonmagnetic state."
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on October 31, 2008, 12:11:05 AM
@Mark

I must agree this is a macro version of one axis of magnetostrictive movement.

@Infringer

If you were referring to my comment about looking at this project from a different angle I didn't mean to imply I would use washer shaped magnets instead of washers. My idea has no washers in it, other than common fasteners used as such.

EDIT>>

@Butch

WOW! Big difference. Increasing the usage of a fixed amount of force or increasing the force? I'm starting to wonder.
Title: Permanent magnets on magnet motor 6
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 02:28:46 AM
could you not make a coil around the washers themselves and see if they still spread and generate power at the same time or maybe have the washers as magnets instead like someone else suggested earlier in the thread?

not to piss on anybodies parade but this sounds like a worthy thing to look into...

-infringer-
Infringer,
Look at magnet motor 6 on our youtube site, it uses permanent magnets.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 31, 2008, 04:48:49 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this entire thread based on the idea that the in and out forces are more or less the same, and that the expansion force between the washers is "free" energy?  Butch's video has made it clear that significant energy will be required to "escape" with the washers expanded, or energy will be required to compress the washers for an easier escape. As you can't have your cake and eat it too, we are now left with two choices: Going in expanded or going in compressed. Even if one method yields more energy than consumed, a portion of the energy is still needed to escape.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 06:13:56 AM
Derricka,
The washers go in expanded when the pull is greatest and then they are compressed while in line with the stator and exit in the compressed fashion. We made measurements and the work to compress the washers is 2 to 3 times less than the work available due to the reduced pull during exit. Also a second option is the washers could be allowed to expand during approach doing work and that work used to compress them while in the stator. We are running more tests and hope to increase the ratio of pull in to pull out many times over what it is now. What we are seeing here is a discovery in addition to our previous invention. I feel both will work as well as many other configurations and operating principles based on the Perpendicular Magnetics principle. It's a field day for overunity research with this. We are working around the clock to test and document all that we are finding. The electrical version and permanent magnet version are both workable I feel and in different operating modes also. Everyone please build and test your ideas and show on video.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: nightlife on October 31, 2008, 06:41:12 AM
I'll be damn. Great find. I have a design figured out that will work with this concept.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on October 31, 2008, 08:19:14 AM
Sounds like all that is needed is to have a plastic roller on the end of the washers and a plastic track to keep it confined on the way out, until past the influence of the magnets.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: wizkycho on October 31, 2008, 10:02:45 AM
Hi all !

Butch experiment shows that when washers are distanced - much more force is needed to move/remove magnets which makes
linear moving of magnet from one w.stack to another w.stack very inneficient.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5064.0;attach=26918 (magnet movement is inneficient if washers stack is between - if identical (static) metal parts are used inbetween magnet moves left-right easily)

how to make it efficient ?

1. washers in Butch exp. are really too thin (so when they are concentrated - they gatther only small ammount of field lines from wide magnets)

2a. washers really should be rectangular

2b. use of "field path directors" is must
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5064.0;attach=27242
wich will render that when washers are concentrated allso flux lines are concentrated and all of the field is able to pass through washers. (again if washers not too thin).

so now this works (magents with path directors are easily moved, cause complete flux now goes through washers no matter how washers are positioned)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5064.0;attach=27140

@Butch - since you have experiment setup on the table can you please make it like this - four or five washers glued (to get one thick enough), and between magnets some permeable material for "path directors-concentrators" and then meassure how much weight it can stand. both should be SAME high weight.

Wiz

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on October 31, 2008, 11:36:58 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles and The Honoured Administrator
of This Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Discussions per Replies to Replies.......

Might I kindly briefly write :

"Every-one is talking about The Weather.....,
though seemingly No-one does some to The Weather.....!! "

Well-then....
at least a lot of subtle cryptical Replies-texts
mention "some" of PRE-situated-OU Details.......

and "WHY" should the REAL OU-Methods in fact just be un-vealed.........
without to make some cares for Benefits of various Means....!!

Of course that such DIALOGUES per Replies to Replies DO are
NOT TO UN-VEAL TOO MUCH OF OWN OU-RESULTS
FOR
TO GET MORE OU-INFORMATIONS FROM SURDEN OTHER
OU-EXPERIMENTERS...!!

"SOME"
ABOUT SOCALLED MATHS-PRODUCTS of [ Voltages(Time) x Currents(Time) ]...........
like i.e. "Phases-Angles"......"Reactive-Effects"......etc !!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Early Winter
and Fruitfull Theoretical/Experimental Results !

The Course of OU  !!

And Joyfull Halloween........!!

And THEN :  Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009...Hooo-hoooo !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: leftcliq on October 31, 2008, 12:43:10 PM
Hi Butch and all,
I have tried this method and honesty, was amazed to say the least.  I used thick round washers and will try square ones soon.  One thing though, when the magnets are in close proximity to the washers and the washers are "defying gravity", it does take a considerable amount of effort to draw the magnets away.  I take it this is due to the attraction of the magnets to the washers.  Is there a specific type of washer used?

Also, Butch, I did see your diagrams on the fdp website years ago but it didn't make sense to me until this forum entry.  I commend you and all on your efforts to free energy.
Well Done.
-Dale.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on October 31, 2008, 06:21:52 PM
Hi Butch and all,
I have tried this method and honesty, was amazed to say the least.  I used thick round washers and will try square ones soon.  One thing though, when the magnets are in close proximity to the washers and the washers are "defying gravity", it does take a considerable amount of effort to draw the magnets away.  I take it this is due to the attraction of the magnets to the washers.  Is there a specific type of washer used?

Also, Butch, I did see your diagrams on the fdp website years ago but it didn't make sense to me until this forum entry.  I commend you and all on your efforts to free energy.
Well Done.
-Dale.

I was amazed too!  And at the simplicity...

The only problem with going into a magnetic field and exiting is of course the magnets/steel want to stay together because the flux wants to travel through the steel more than air.  Couldn't you just place more steel around the entire rotor/path, that way there is not much of a difference?  Basically using more steel as 'flux holders' that won't cause much pull on the steel you need to use?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 09:17:34 PM
Hi Butch and all,
I have tried this method and honesty, was amazed to say the least.  I used thick round washers and will try square ones soon.  One thing though, when the magnets are in close proximity to the washers and the washers are "defying gravity", it does take a considerable amount of effort to draw the magnets away.  I take it this is due to the attraction of the magnets to the washers.  Is there a specific type of washer used?

Also, Butch, I did see your diagrams on the fdp website years ago but it didn't make sense to me until this forum entry.  I commend you and all on your efforts to free energy.
Well Done.
-Dale.
Dale,
Thanks, we are running tests around the clock to find best material and shape and overall configuration.
I am looking forward to trying pure laboratory grade iron, 99.8 % pure.
It's a pain to work with, after machining you have to reanneal it.
The stuff is almost magical.
Butch

Title: Perpendicular Magnetics Generator
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 09:22:57 PM
The sequence of operation with this is complicated. The rotor would experience a reduction in attraction due to coil reaction and the reduction would have to be held down so it would equal the reduction in pull back when the rotor was leaving the stator.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Second illustration of generator
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 09:24:57 PM
Illustration 2
Title: Sorry, I meant to say 99.95% pure iron
Post by: Butch on October 31, 2008, 11:13:01 PM
See attached
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 01, 2008, 01:56:02 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of this Honourable OVER-UNITY-FORUM !!

Might I kindly most briefly mention about :

The IMPORTANCE of the H-magnetical-FieldÂ´s-Gradientes !!

WKR & have Yuorselves a nice Day and Weekend !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: powermag on November 02, 2008, 01:46:42 AM
To shine a little more light on this subject here is a patent from 1978 using the same principles. Just go to google , more, even more, patent search and enter the number 4121139.  I can now build this device because it is now public domain.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: powermag on November 02, 2008, 02:08:16 AM
http://www.metglas.com/products/page5_1_2_6.htm
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: powermag on November 02, 2008, 02:21:13 AM
As the magnets or plates push the rod which recipricates back and forth you can attach the rod to hydraulic which can then drive this beauty.  ( http://www.tendaire.com/product_dh_60hz.asp )
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on November 03, 2008, 02:15:50 AM

I did a bunch of tests over the weekend to look for any difference between the work done when expanded washers move into the field compared to the force of compressed washers.

There is actually quit a difference, but after calculating the work required to compress the washers while in the field,it ends up to be exactly even!

It is like every line of force that is used to do work requires the same work to remove it. All the tests I have ever made using magnets as a source of energy always balance in the end.

I really thought this may have been the one that was different but I am sorry to say crap!

If anyone else has had any better luck I would like to hear about it cause I hate it when things don;t work as planned.
(and I don;t like being a fun wrecker)

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: nightlife on November 03, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
I found that using just one magnet and just two washers works better.

Washers will fan when attracted and then they need to be compressed just before center of attraction. They also must be positioned so that the center of compression is center with the center of polarity. This can be done by using a guide rail so that it allows the washers to fan out at the first attraction point and then compresses the washers together just before the center of the attraction point and then keeps them compressed until the washers come up to the next magnets first attraction point and then repeats the process.
It may be best to use 8 magnets on the outside of a wheel with a nonmagnetic track attached around them that will compress the washers and then have 8 stationary points fitted with the washers.

The fanned attraction is strong enough to throw the compressed washers into the next attraction point. The compression must not be too tight and must have a little play. When the washers are compressed together at the center of polarity, they have very little draw back attraction.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: MarkSnoswell on November 03, 2008, 03:51:22 AM
I did a bunch of tests over the weekend ... All the tests I have ever made using magnets as a source of energy always balance in the end.

I really thought this may have been the one that was different but I am sorry to say crap!

If anyone else has had any better luck I would like to hear about it cause I hate it when things don;t work as planned.
(and I don;t like being a fun wrecker)

You are correct. On this macro scale the change in reluctance due to the separation of the washers results in greater attraction of the stack of washers to the magnets causing their separation -- this balances any imagined energy gains from cycling the reluctance in this way. But the failure to break the zero sum energy cycle with these type of devices does not mean that there is no hope for this avenue of research -- However you need to work with solid ferromagnetic materials where the mechanical changes in the material are due to molecular stresses linked to the quantum nature of magnetic domains. At this level there are some indications of non-reciprocal cycles that can lead to non zero sum solutions.

Anyone wishing to find out about a whole range of highly non-linear and other interesting effects in this area should do a search on multiferroics. The area of multiferroics really only began in 2005 and has exploded since then with new discoveries every week it seems.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 03, 2008, 04:18:09 AM
It is like every line of force that is used to do work requires the same work to remove it. All the tests I have ever made using magnets as a source of energy always balance in the end.

I really thought this may have been the one that was different but I am sorry to say crap!

If anyone else has had any better luck I would like to hear about it cause I hate it when things don;t work as planned.
(and I don;t like being a fun wrecker)

@lumen

Your results match mine. However, these results are needed for the idea Iâ€™m pursuing.

From already discussed: If using a coil as the source the flux varies only very slightly from expanded to compressed washers. I say â€˜washersâ€™ but Iâ€™ve done very few experiments with them.

My experiments are with laminations with increasing gaps. Some will call them SMOT ramps but they are not toys. Not only do the washers try to separate but the magnets will move to the separations they are trying to create.
Since there is very little difference in flux density between compressed and spaced there is very little drag created at the point where the gaps are greatest and where they are suddenly compressed.

The simplest form would be similar to a rail-gun but the rail is not a rail with sequentially pulsed magnets. The projectile would be the magnets with flux passing through the rail. The rail would be multiple short sections of laminations. At one end the laminations would be compressed. The gap between laminations would increase like an opening Geisha fan.

The projectile will seek the widest point, within limits. The trick then is an old electric motor trick. If the rotor has an odd number of poles then the stator needs to have an even number of poles.

All you need is enough projectiles/magnetic points, with the correct spacing between them, and they will keep moving.

My idea is basically three fixed points 0, 120 and 240 as stator. A 20 section rotor. Each section is pie shaped and the wide end varies in gap between the layers. I'm on the road again now but was well into assembling the rotor sections. I'm using only two dognut shaped magnets. One around the rotor shaft on each of the two faces. The stator sections are roughly 'C' shaped making magnetic connection from the face of the donut magnets to the outer diameter of the rotor.

When complete at the point where one rotor section is leaving maximum spread there will always be two points where the flux is trying to reach maximum spread.

I've done it again :(   No real documentation. Before you throw this idea out consider it.

The use of this spreading is not over yet  ;)

--------- when is said pie shaped I mean as in a slice of pie or radial section
--------- rather than take my words as gospel try a C-shaped magnet over fanned strips of iron.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 03, 2008, 12:36:08 PM

I'm teaching a 2 week class far from my bench. No fancy software on this idiot box but I'll sketch something and send a photo later tonight.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 04, 2008, 04:33:45 AM
Ok.

I borrowed an AutoSketch machine and scribbled the idea. Believe me when I say having the net result as zero is a good thing.

There is a reason why I am using a 1/2 inch shaft. Not only because those were the only parts I had left from another mag motor.

You can put simple coils in the stator sections to aid in gap adjustment (set for minimal variation and balance between the three dual stator sections.

A separate magnet on each side is required so there is additional torque generated where the opposite stators meet.
The sketch does not show the current state of my experiment. Mine has adjustment screws for adjusting rotor/stator and stator/magnet gaps. Balancing the three major sections is difficult. If one has a large difference it may take most or none of the magnetic flux.

Good luck. Don't waste your time with a simulator unless it is true 3D.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 05, 2008, 04:46:08 AM
Due to some PM'd questions, I'll answer here:

Rotor construction: Qty 6, roughly C shaped laminations of the same metal as the rotor. Metal used is .26mm thick - measured.

"Orientation of laminations should be same as rotor sections!" - WRONG. In a conventional motor, yes. Not here.

No, I haven't measured the magnet's strength.

Q. "Half inch bearings and shaft? Are you kidding?"
A. NO. I only expect a maximum unloaded RPM of 462 but there are strong stresses already. I always overbuild. If it can't turn the bearings and shaft I'm not interested in it.

Q. "A separate magnet on each side is required so there is additional torque generated where the opposite stators meet. - Are your stators rotating?"

A. No, They are STATORS. Two separate flux - one from each magnet, meet to continue through the rotor sections. In the middle between the two pie-slice-shaped rotor sections (one on either face of the overall rotor) these two flux repel each other. This aids in the flux seeking a wider gap and in smoothing any remaining sticky points.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on November 05, 2008, 03:59:43 PM

@BEP

I have my own CNC machines so it's possible for me to build virtually any prototype design. In the past I found it much easier to only build enough to test the operating principal. This usually indicates the problem and even lets you do some "what if " testing to find a modified condition which may improve possibilities of any gain in energy.

So far it looks like anything that depends on the changing magnitude of the field will always require the same energy in the opposite move to reduce the field.

At this point it looks like a moving field with a constant magnitude may be the only possibility.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 05, 2008, 06:56:32 PM
@BEP

I have my own CNC machines so it's possible for me to build virtually any prototype design. In the past I found it much easier to only build enough to test the operating principal. This usually indicates the problem and even lets you do some "what if " testing to find a modified condition which may improve possibilities of any gain in energy.

So far it looks like anything that depends on the changing magnitude of the field will always require the same energy in the opposite move to reduce the field.

At this point it looks like a moving field with a constant magnitude may be the only possibility.

Constant magnitude but no movement radially. The only movement I want is the (forgive me purists) expansion and compression of the field lines in the axial direction at each stator/rotor point.

I'm past the concept stage. The only problem is the increase in flux during expansion with side leakage. Those should be addressed with this design. A slight ramp in the radial dimension of each section should handle this along with create some attraction to the next section. The key is the expansion/contraction must be the same axis as the shaft.
I only used the CNC to build a mock-up of the supporting structures.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: JackH on November 05, 2008, 11:20:35 PM
Hello ALL,

Thees is Jack W Hildenbrand machine.     I allready have a patent on it a the patent office.    How do you thick there'll do anytime with it.when it financed,
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 06, 2008, 03:29:02 AM
@JackH

If you are referring to the drawing I posted:

I'm honored to have any comment from you. You work is both genius and fine art.

However, my best understanding of your patent and posted works tells me there is almost no similarity between your work and my design, either in function or form. I've certainly never built anything that looks as good as your work.

This design does no flux or field switching and has no control or driving circuitry or coils.

If you have any links to information that makes my above statement wrong, please post or PM them. I'll be glad to make sure I'm not stealing your ideas.

BEP
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on November 06, 2008, 08:16:14 AM
Don't let patents scare you away.
I'm not a legal expert, but from what I understand about patent law, anyone is entitled to build a patented device to test for themselves. Patents are  infringed only when such devices are marketed or used for financial gain.  If you think there is patent out there that actually works, feel free to build it and report your findings, just don't sell it or use it for profit.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 06, 2008, 11:15:54 AM
Thanks,

I understand that but I won't claim an idea is mine if there is any chance it is another's. As far as I know there is nothing like this out there.

It is interesting. Jack is the third to tell me they invented this idea. The other two didn't even have a rotor  ;D

If anyone thinks the idea is theirs, please post a link to the patent or info.

Bep
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gyulasun on November 06, 2008, 11:42:46 AM
Hi BEP,

I noticed Jack wrote similar text on other threads on this Forum, and he started a new thread too: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5992.0

Now that I have studied a little what he may really mean I think he does not address yours setup in this thread but that of Butch here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5064.msg135416#msg135416   i.e. where there is a permanent magnet embedded between soft iron yokes and there is an electromagnet interacting with this yokes + permanent magnet assembly.

So I do not think you are involved.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 06, 2008, 12:27:50 PM
@gyulasun

Thank you for clearing that. I love Jack's work.

@All

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: allcanadian on November 06, 2008, 04:55:50 PM
What jack.H doesn't understand is that I could easily dig up many patents his so called patent infringes on, I could also produce patents that utilize a similar effect or the same effect in a different way that is new and unique and there is nothing he can do. I hate it when egotistical people make the silly claim that "this is mine", he knows fully well where he got the idea from and this idea was never his in the first place. In the end I can say very little if anything we see or know is actually new as most everything is always based on some other persons idea, as Nicola Tesla once said "There is no invention in it" ---- it is just another variation of an idea already conceived, at least I and others have the integrity to admit this fact.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: mscoffman on November 06, 2008, 06:44:39 PM
Don't let patents scare you away.
I'm not a legal expert, but from what I understand about patent law, anyone is entitled to build a patented device to test for themselves. Patents are  infringed only when such devices are marketed or used for financial gain.  If you think there is patent out there that actually works, feel free to build it and report your findings, just don't sell it or use it for profit.

derricka;

I agree with you completely, There is no way to tell who posters really are or who they represent
and you don't want the competition from parties unknown from being able to deter your work.
I got a mailbox full of spam if you want it to prove it. Make it function, then do the legal, in that
order sequence.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Most of this this stuff has over one hundred or more years of technical suggestions behind it,

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 06, 2008, 06:58:41 PM
Doesn't a patent require a functioning prototype that does what the patent says?

No matter. I'll not try to patent anything again. If it is the wrong thing you'll loose rights to it anyway. I can just imagine some company stooge trying to build posted ideas just to 'make sure' they are loosing out on a potential product.
Title: Pseudo Solid Perpendicular Magnetics Motor
Post by: Butch on November 06, 2008, 10:18:41 PM
This design makes full use of "pull in" on the fanners elements, but avoids all "back drag" on exit of the fanner elements. It's a merge of our Pseudo Solid design and Perpendicular Magnetics design. 3D animation being made at this time. Test machine will be built also. We copyright only to keep someone from trying to claim it and suppress it or sell it for profit.
Free energy for all,
Butch LaFonte,
The LaFonte Group
See attached
Title: Test for work to compress fanner washers
Post by: Butch on November 07, 2008, 12:26:25 AM
Mark is building a fixture to find the work necessary to compress the fanner washers in the last test he did.
It took 19 counter weight washers to get the fanner washers to break free when fanned out. He will video how many washers weight it takes to compress the fanner washers back.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on November 07, 2008, 01:40:30 AM
Hi Butch,
why donÂ´t you and Mark  concentrate to
build the real principle reciprocating motor as

??

Mark could use his black coil from this video:

and just needs to design a new iron core to
push the rectangular washers...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gzyt1325 on November 07, 2008, 03:18:11 AM
Hay dose any one have a working model for ocalmm, oc, I have see lots but when time to get ALL info no go , would like to build myself to see truth. Lots of good stuff here, thanks, you all made my life. Keep up the good work.Thanks, somthing easy to start with that works? I would like to add that no matter who did what first ,free IS the name of the game, the earth and man kind will love yous for it. You can improve on a patenet and its yours,but lets give it away least they will keep it from the people and it will be for not.Look at all the ones that came before us, we are still on the grid???????? I dont doubt for one min. that they dident make it but we are still looking, why? they should have given it away.To all a better life, a better world, we need to take our place as humans to help man kind.Thank you for letting me have my say say.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: nightlife on November 07, 2008, 04:41:40 PM
It sounded good on paper but reality wins again. LOL
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on November 07, 2008, 07:11:50 PM
Hi Butch,
why donÂ´t you and Mark  concentrate to
build the real principle reciprocating motor as

??

Mark could use his black coil from this video:

and just needs to design a new iron core to
push the rectangular washers...

Regards, Stefan.
Stefan,
That is an old video. We shipped a reciprocating motor and a rotary motor to Atlanta for testing. We want to be 100% sure that no counter emf is being produced against the supply voltage during the repelling of the moving elements.
Regards,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 09, 2008, 12:37:29 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of this The OVER-UNITY-FORUM  !!

Might I kindly briefly interfere "just-a-little" to Your
interesting important continued-going-on Discussions per Replies-to-Replies
to the original Topic !!

**********
YES...it is possible to "design" an ElectroMotor "without" an
"associated" counter-EMF...............

though while it is also ppossible to "construct" such a NON-counter-EMF-
ElectroMotor ,
THEN surden possible "Designs" would be rather Mechanicaly constructionally
difficult to "construct" for reliable Runnings  (indeed if high-speeds-revolutions or
high-speeds-translatorical-movements should be) , etc  !!

*********
YES......the often UNspecified Magntical Properties of surden mu-r-
permeabilities-materials.......
for THEN also it is difficult to would "replicate" Experimental Results , etc !

**********
YES.......the Electrical-currents-Mechanical-Electrical-Commutations.......
how THEN about to would alter the ALL of relative movements in
ElectroMotors.......
by "doing" some other Ideas-Concepts.......
for THEN  also a possible "tress-passing" of the socalled LenzÂ´s Law-Theoreme
might "appear" (for to have less of counter-EMFs, etc)  !!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Early Winter  !!

And :  Hoo-Hooo........!!

And : Merry Xmas & Happy NewYear !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on November 09, 2008, 05:56:29 PM
Stefan,
That is an old video. We shipped a reciprocating motor and a rotary motor to Atlanta for testing. We want to be 100% sure that no counter emf is being produced against the supply voltage during the repelling of the moving elements.
Regards,
Butch

Hi Butch,
what is the purpose of shipping it to Atlanta ?
To an university there ?

Did you take a video of it proir to shipping it there ?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on November 10, 2008, 08:32:20 PM
Hi Butch,
what is the purpose of shipping it to Atlanta ?
To an university there ?

Did you take a video of it proir to shipping it there ?

Many thanks.
Stefan,
We were very cautious about the claim of no CEFM to the power supply. But during our research we discovered something that is a major breakthrough in Perpendicular Magnetics design and eliminates all CEFM to the power supply beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's such a breakthrough that we are getting patent protection so no one can suppress it or make the public pay gasoline like prices for it.
Yes, we have video and the organization in Atlanta wants to remain anonymous for the time being. I promise you as soon as possible we will release all information on this.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 10, 2008, 10:52:56 PM
we are getting patent protection so no one can suppress it

@Butch

I truly hope that works for you.

BEP
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on November 10, 2008, 11:05:47 PM
Quote
It's such a breakthrough that we are getting patent protection so no one can suppress it or make the public pay gasoline like prices for it.

That line is funny in a not so funny way.
Title: Sorry, typo, CEMF
Post by: Butch on November 10, 2008, 11:45:44 PM
Sorry, in my last post I typed CEFM. I've typed it at least 5000 times, but just got a little excited this time.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch on November 10, 2008, 11:56:38 PM
@Butch

I truly hope that works for you.

BEP
BEP,
Thanks,
If it works for me, it will be the same as working for us all.
Butch
Title: Will demonstrate Perpendicular Magnetics zero CEMF in video and in person
Post by: Butch on November 12, 2008, 01:52:22 AM
We are building a fixture just for demonstration on video to the public. The fixture will show work done by the "fanner" elements or rotary element and no counter emf is experienced by the power supply. In most video's that show overunity no name or address or invitation is given so the device can be examined by the public. That will not be the case with our group. We will allow the public to examine the device. It will be at my location or Marks. It's super simple and can be understood by the general public. Will notify this group and others when the demo is ready.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Will demonstrate Perpendicular Magnetics zero CEMF in video and in person
Post by: gotoluc on November 12, 2008, 06:29:29 AM
We are building a fixture just for demonstration on video to the public. The fixture will show work done by the "fanner" elements or rotary element and no counter emf is experienced by the power supply. In most video's that show overunity no name or address or invitation is given so the device can be examined by the public. That will not be the case with our group. We will allow the public to examine the device. It will be at my location or Marks. It's super simple and can be understood by the general public. Will notify this group and others when the demo is ready.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

I've been following your work for over a year now and would like to wish you all the best with your new findings. It sounds like a very exciting breakthrough ;D

May God grace be with you and give you the real thing so the World can finally learn the benefits and power of sharing.

Thank you

Luc
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 13, 2008, 11:45:35 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of this The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

Might I briefly interfere with my short Note related to
continued-going-on-Discussions per
Replies to Replies to the original TopicÂ´s Theme !!

***********
To kindly notice about the IMPORTANCE of
the socalled GRADIENTES of the H-magnetical-Field......

by to would evaluate per applying the Biot-Savart-emperical-
H-fields-Formalism to elementary loops of electrical
currents "through" metallical conductors..........

for THEN it might appear about , WHAT & HOW in fact
DOES the socalled "Electro-Magnetical-Forces"....

and also THEN it might appear the theses-differences between
Classical Magneto-Statics and Classical electro-Magnetism(Dynamics)....!!

Might I kindly soon briefly notify a "little" about the problematics about
the socalled "Dia-magnetism" , "Para-magnetism" ....and the
"Magnetism related to Permeabilities-materials"..........!!

WKR & have yourselves a nice Day and remaining Labouring-Week and soon Weekend
and a pleasant early winter and then : Hoo-Hooo-ehh-Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 13, 2008, 11:51:58 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of this The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

Might i kindly briefly by short-form mention about :

YES.....it is possible to obtain a socalled
Electro-magnetical "Electrical-Power-Generator"

Might it be interesting to realize about the significant
"differences" between
>> such a "Generator of NO Loads-counter-Force" <<
and
>> a socalled Electro-Motor of NO Loads-Counter-EMF <<  !!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and fruitfull Experimental/Emperical/
Theoretical Results from Youir hardlabored OU-Doings  !!

And :
Have Yourselves a nice Weekend and pleasant Early winter and still also :

Hoo-hoo-hooooehhhh....Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 14, 2008, 10:39:53 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of this the Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Might I kindly briefly just mention about :

WHAT & HOW of Forces DO appear/"how are Electromagnetical InterActions"
between "Air-core"-metallical-"magnetically-neutral"-Conductors per
the Biot-Savart-emperical-H-magnetical-Fields-Formalism and
per the socalled "Lorenz-Electromagnetical-Force"..........!!

Interesting to compare to Classical Magneto-Statics
( i.e. the socalled H-Poles-per-H-Charges-Theses)

Interesting to would compare to DIA-MAGNETISMS  and to  PARA-MAGNETISMS
and to "Permanent Magnetes and mu-r-permeabilities-Materials".....!!

Interesting to would in general calculate and theorize about
"Air-core"-electrical-currents-Coils in mutual interactions ....!!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Early Winter.....

and Hoo-Hooo-ehh and MERRY Xmas 2008 &  HAPPY NewYear 2009  !!

And thanks about Your various respective Contributions to The Course of OU  !!

And thanks about Your continued-going-on Discussions per Replies to Replies to the Original TopicÂ´s Theme  !!
Title: Re: Will demonstrate Perpendicular Magnetics zero CEMF in video and in person
Post by: Butch on November 15, 2008, 05:23:02 AM
Hi Butch,

I've been following your work for over a year now and would like to wish you all the best with your new findings. It sounds like a very exciting breakthrough ;D

May God grace be with you and give you the real thing so the World can finally learn the benefits and power of sharing.

Thank you

Luc
Luc,
Thanks for your support. The timing could not be any better for this to come along.
Will keep you posted.
Butch
Title: Re: Will demonstrate Perpendicular Magnetics zero CEMF in video and in person
Post by: gotoluc on November 16, 2008, 05:41:21 AM
Luc,
Thanks for your support. The timing could not be any better for this to come along.
Will keep you posted.
Butch

Thanks for the reply Butch ;)

Luc
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: supersam on November 16, 2008, 06:36:37 AM
hey Butch,

what about a reply to Newton's querrries?  they seemed to make since to me, if you actually read them.

lol
sam
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on November 19, 2008, 11:02:34 AM
I think newton2 is using language translator software for sending messages. ( Japanese to English ?)
The conversion software appears to produce English text that seems a bit silly when you first read it, a bit difficult, but it can be understood.

newton2, if you are reading this, please tell people when you are using translator software. Also, avoid using the following words and expressions. Thank you for trying to participate.

"Honored"
"Honorable"
"Yes...."
"Hoo-Hooo........!!"

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on November 19, 2008, 12:15:37 PM
Hey Butch, any updates on how the fixture is coming along?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on November 19, 2008, 06:42:52 PM
Hey Butch, any updates on how the fixture is coming along?
Broli,
Mark is out of town, but returning today and I also had a new oscilloscope shipped to him that is due to arrive Friday. Everything is going just as planned.
Will keep you posted.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 20, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-FORUM  !!

Might I per STANDARD-ENGLISH applied to Science/Technical-Notes-Form
then kindly briefly in some few short sentences mention about :

----------------------------------------------------

experimented and theorized about to would obtain some
BASICAL FORMS of socalled OverUnity-Function and/or  socalled ENERGY-GENERATION....!!

While having performed also again and again was the Question about :
>>Does Energy in fact be an auto-consistent Form or rather more a TERM ....<<
>>just a TERM of Original Classical Mechanics...................??!!....................<<

I quite frankly , though then rather straightly spoken have
some BASICAL OU // ENERGY-GENERATORS-METHODS--PLANTS
of SUCH Simplicities/few components-materials ,
......so simple in Methods.......,
that They are quite close to // in "fact"   PRINCIPLES of NATURE.....
and THUS can NOT be Patented nor Registered.........
though following my idealistical intentions just can be Publically-Announced
to be FREELY used...........!!

-----------------------------------------------------------

By researching in OU // Energy-Generation THEN some Follow-up- // Co-Results
also became to be in OPPOSITIONS to MOST
of too-well-established Dogmes-Physics (and Dogmes-Maths) !!

By having such Results then wouldto suggest formally
to should scientifically begin again at the Circumstances BEFORE the
notorious Theories of 1900Years .......

FOR SUCH HAVE TO BE DONE.........!!

Then NO more of
notorious Relativistical Theories
nor
of  Quantum-Wave-Theories
nor of associated speculative Sub-of-sub-Nucleus-Theses
nor of "Super-niveaus-Maths".......etc  !!

FOR SEEMINGLY "HERE" IN MACRO-COSMOS THE REAL
INTERACTIONS OF "SUB-SUB-MICRO-COSMOS"  PERHAPS NEVER/
HARDLY-NEVER NOT (or MOST difficult else)
MIGHT BE EXPERIMENTED THROUGH......
FOR WHAT OF "TOOLS" SHOULD BE TO SHOULD USE FOR

To have realized about socalled OU // Energy-Generation is a "Detail"
of a Near-FutureÂ´s Sciences/Technics.....
though a "Detail" performed by hitherto p.t.-Times
per many hardlaboring idealistical PersonsÂ´s
intensely Science/Technical Doings.......

I honour such Deeds of  OU/Energy-Generation of The Past.....!!

And THUS by my Honouring The hardlaboring Persons of OU/Energy-Generation-Researches
of The PAST ,
THEN I state my own mere elementary Researches Results to should
in Idealisms then Praise the many Persons of PAST TIMESÂ´s  OU/Energy-Generation-Researches......!!

And I also Honour the Present hardlaboring Profiles-Persons here in OverUnity-Forum
for Their respective individual idealistical hardlabored Doings for to
would obtain OU/EnergyGeneration....!!

YOU HAVE DONE GRAND SCIENCE/TECHNICS PERFORMINGS AND CONTRIBUTIONS
TO KNOWLEDGES OF MANKIND....!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I will kindly mention per some "digital-photos"
though then AFTER the End of a sooncoming local
BAD WINTER-WEATHERS-CONDITION to might arrive in app. 12 hours
here in Scandinavia & North-Eastern-Europe Areas....!!

------------------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Early Winter ;

and allready for Whom it concerns :  Merry Xmas 2008  &  Happy NewYear 2009 !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: dean_mcgowan on November 20, 2008, 02:15:28 PM
Butch,

Whats the latest gizmo ?

Looking forward to the new vids.

Cheers,

Dean
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 22, 2008, 01:34:02 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
in This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Might I kindly briefly just mention about......
just mention as just so NOT-UN-vealing about some "own" Results about :

********************
In the too-well-established ParnassÃ© of The Dogmes-Physics-&-Maths

well-then .......
the Circumstance of 2 pcs separate elementary electrical-currents-in-
metallical-conductors-closed-loops.................
seemingly a  (closed)-DOUBLE-INTEGRAL "over" the Biot-Savart-emperical-
electromagnetical-Formalism "followed" then by a "use" of The Stokes-Theoreme
should "one-time-for-all-abandon"  any "terrible" Possibilities of 2 pcs separate single
Electrical-Currents-"Windings"...............

NO.......THT socalled "Proof" is NOT at all a GENERAL-in-ALL-Situations-"Proof"........

without to should UNveal some of "my own" mere Results ,
though still in the Course of OU ,
might I then just hint about :

The Maths-Complexities of Biot-Savart-emperical-Electromagnetical-Formalism
as when applied for evaluating about 2 separate "air-cores" Coils/Windings interacting in
Means of both "Forces" and "Mutual H-fields"..............
an e.g. of Maths-Complexity :
THE HYPER-GEOMETRICAL FUNCTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES of "Round-LoopsÂ´s" H-fields...!

and THEN still NOT any hint about "when dealing" with the notorious Relativistical TheoriesÂ´s
socalled "Classical-H-magnetical-fields-Substitute"-Action.....!!

and THEN further NOT any hint about "if" placing mu-r-permeabilities and/or diamagnetical and/or
paramagnetical Materials "near" 2 pcs separate single ElectroMagnetical "Windings"......!!

----------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Early Winter !!

And for Whom It concerns : Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Kevin Mc Carthy on November 23, 2008, 01:27:43 PM
Newton 2

Are you referring to the Nobel Peace Prize for dipoles?

In essence, a magnet with a very long distance between poles has energy travel between the poles through a secondary medium. If such a medium exists then a magnet with a short distance between the poles uses the same principle.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on November 23, 2008, 02:16:20 PM
@newton2

Well, it certainly is difficult to understand any of your philosophy.
Many on-line translators aren't very good, especially when translating less known languages.

Direct question: do you have anything practical related with FE/OU?
Any (believable, clear, simply presented) theory? You can find a help from your friends, if you want to explain it here...

There is some "scientific mumbo-jumbo" in your "texts"....

Frankly, if you cannot explain it in simple terms, then...

@Butch
What happened to all of your previous OU devices from the last years? It seems you are always too quick with revolutionary announcements?

Ah, this time it will be different...
Well, Good Luck!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 23, 2008, 02:48:36 PM
"mumbo-jumbo"  ;D

That should bring his translator to a screeching halt!

I don't see it as mumbo-jumbo. The use of the law/theory references is correct and applicable to his other thoughts.

@Newton 2

I am wondering if your translator use is some form of screen. It seems you probably speak English or French but are using a translator for some other reason?

No insult intended... Just curious  :)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on November 23, 2008, 06:52:23 PM
@Butch
What happened to all of your previous OU devices from the last years? It seems you are always too quick with revolutionary announcements?

Ah, this time it will be different...
Well, Good Luck!
[/quote]
Spinner,
All the devices are in Marks shop.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gpezzella on November 23, 2008, 10:09:59 PM
Dear Butch

can I use principle from you discovery for build my own magnetic motor, of course different from your?

Thanks
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on November 24, 2008, 02:32:20 AM
Dear Butch

can I use principle from you discovery for build my own magnetic motor, of course different from your?

Thanks
Gpezzella,
Which principle are you talking about?
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gpezzella on November 24, 2008, 10:10:03 AM
Dear Butch

the one descived from you in this forum, the iron disks that under magnetic field separe itself.
If I have understand well this principle was already know but never used.
Thanks
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 24, 2008, 02:06:38 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

This Continued Discussion is about a strictly SMOT-alike Magneto-Statical-
OU......yes.......
PARDON about my interferences per my Replies.......
for my Replies hardly are mentioning strictly about SMOTS......
though tempting to would write about some quite other OU-Circumstances than SMOTS....
because of This Continued Discussion being the "Hot-News-promoted" Discussion per the
Original Topic (on p 1 )..............!!

Might I kindly briefly just mention per some selected wordings about :

************The Importance of the RESIDUAL H-magnetical-Field from
the "Short-solenoides-Air-core"-Coil
if-when a socalled "regulary Shapes Ring" of mu-r-
permeabilities-material is "placed" "through-outly-filling" the
inner-space of the Coil.....!!

THÃ‰N per involving the MOST-DIFFICULT-to-would-screen-out-balancing-
the-Solenoidal-CoilÂ´s-H-field per mu-r-permeabilities-Materials-CIRCUMSTANCE/
PROBLEMATICS
is THÃšS rather "CLEARLY" to should THÃ‰N NOT just apply
the commonly "accepted"  "Rule" most often "found" in
both Practical-Physics-Theorizings and in Technics :
>> To would evaluate the Situation of Coils placed on
>> mu-r-permeabilities-materials as "Maths-equal"-in-Maths-Formalism
>> to electrical-currents/voltages-ohmical-Networks...........

In SHORT-FORM :
it is MOST difficult to would OUT-BALANCE
the "Air-coreÂ´s-H-field" from a common short-length-regulary-Shapes-
Solenoide"
per just applying some various mu-r-permeabilities-materials as
"done" in "Commercials Manufactured Power-Transformers"........

....though-though : the REGULARY SHAPES-TOROIDAL-coil........
THEN COMPARED TO A SHORTLY-LENGTHED SOLENOIDE (as often used
in commercial power-transformers.....................

"And most retorically spoken" :
might THEN the "cosed" ohmical-electrical-Networks-only-as-SUGGESTED-Pendant
to evaluate about "H-fields-in-mu-r-permeabilities-materials"-caused by an "Air-cored-
toroide"  HERE BY "USED".........
i.e. when "dealing" with an EXTERIOR H-field to should interfere with a TOROIDE wound
in regular "Pitch-Form" on a TOROIDAL HOMOGENOUOS Mu-R-Permeabilities-Shape/"Ring"....

PERHAPS STILL NEITHER JUST AS "EASY" TO WOULD "DO" TO EVALUATE......
for EXTERIOR-H-field causes separate H-INFLUENSES- SPACES in The Toroides-Ring
.........then allthough Windings are mutually-serially-electrically-connected ,
then STILL also are involved Circumstances of THAT Windings "having" Exterior H-fields-.
gradientes as "perpendiculary"-Right-on-mu-r-permeabilities-Surface (a kind of Boundary-circumstance of Magnetical Materials) compared to the in fact becoming-to-be H-influensed parts of the Toroidal-Rings-Material........!!

Allthough "Close" Evaluations-Theories might be applied to such Situations ,
then EMPERICALLY PERFORMED MEASUREMENTS per small-SMD-cased
Hall-Elements might really "DO" to evaluate about the "free-spatial-H-fields"......!!

These my few wordings are mere PRE-introductive Wordings to such Problematics.......

for REALLY lots of Wordings & Maths might have to be involved.........!!

-----------------------------

WKR & have yourselves a nice Day and Labouring Week and a pleasant
Early Winter and For Whom It might be relevant : Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !!

And my THANKS to Your All for Your various important interesting Contributions to
THe Honourable Course of OU  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on November 24, 2008, 09:35:35 PM
Dear Butch

the one descived from you in this forum, the iron disks that under magnetic field separe itself.
If I have understand well this principle was already know but never used.
Thanks
Build your machine, if it works give it to the world.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: gpezzella on November 25, 2008, 08:47:37 AM
dear butch
you are a great man!
thanks
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 25, 2008, 01:15:54 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

Might I kindly briefly in a few sentences just mention about :

**********IF-WHEN a socalled SMOT/SMOTS-Actions-alike Device should be
attempted to become PATENTED and/or REGISTERED.......
THÃ‰N there at least is this problematical Circumstance :

The PROPERTIES of the mu-r-permeabilities-materials
should be SO CLOSELY CORRECTLY DEFINED.......
and also MATHS plus PHYSICS-THEORIZINGS might "well"
indeed have to be INCORPORATED in such "Patents/Registerings"-Attempts...!!

And THÃ‰N furthermore should be INCORPORATED
plus "Tolerances for GO/NO-GO"
of such SMOTS like the INTERESTING INGENIOUS
WELL-THOUGHT Idea of this original Topic (page 1)//
this continued HOT-NEWS-going-on-Discussion  !!

The Honoured Administrator  Herr Hartmann more than ONE TIME

to have arranged an Electrical Currents Solenoides-Coil and
the "moveable" mu-r-permeabilities-pieces in SURDEN WAYS
of SetUps.............

Kindly frankly I "know" "some" about "how&why" in ways of
interacting a Solenoide with such mu-r-permeabilities-"pieces" ........
an interesting "combination" of both practical Appliances of
Physics/Maths-Theories and "Handy-Crafts"..........!!

MY KIND THANKS TO THE HONOURED ADMINISTRATOR  Herr Hartmann

FOR HIS KINDLY HINTING ABOUT A SOLENOIDE TOGETHER WITH

PIECES OF MU-R-PERMEABILITIES-MATERIALS........................

MIGHT I DARINGLY SUGGEST ,  THAT THE HONOURED  ADMINISTRATOR

DOES KNOW ABOUT THE POSSIBLE OU-ACTIONS  OF SUCH A SET-UP

OF  A SOLENOIDE  TOGETHER  WITH  MU-R-PERMEABILITIES-PIECES.........

OF COURSE THAT THE HONOURED ADMINISTRATOR HAS TO KEEP

IN DISCRETIONAL SECRETS ABOUT SUCH AN OU-Device of Solenoide + mu-r-pieces !!....

MIGHT I KINDLY MEAN ,

THAT HARDLY WILL PER  P.T.  THE HONOURED ADMINISTRATOR  STILL NOT UN-VEAL

ANY DETAILS ABOUT  THE WELL-FUNCTIONING   [ OU-Solenoides+mu-r-permeabilities-pieces ]

.......................might I just briefly mention a "little" of mere OU-RUNNING-Results of "my own" mere OU-Researches-
Results about such an OU-DEvice per [solenoide + mu-r-permeabilities-pieces ]  :

>> a TEN-PROCENT-"more-output" might be expected when-if using a "thick-Cu-wires"-multi-turns->>wound in
>> i.e. a 1:1-Lenght-to-diameter-"Air-Cores"-Solenoide and "using" HighFrequencies-properties-
>> ferrites-long-rods..........
>> BOTH a "Pushing-Force" might be "usable"......(to some "point" also "pulling"-Force).......
>> AND an IMPEDANCE-altering Circumstance might be "usable".......
>> THE TRAJECTORIES OF MECHANICAL MOVEMENTS OF THE Ferrites-Rods DO
>> are SIGNIFICANTLY IMPORTANT in MEANS of  xxxxxx.............!!

---------------------------------

Might I kindly most briefly mention about the SMOT-alike-Method as mentioned
on P 1  in The Original Topic (my Thanks to the Honoured Profile having started the Discussion) and (my Thanks to THe Honoured Profiles + THe Honoured Administrator having so fruitfully kindly
ingeniously contributed per Their respective interesting Replies to Replies) :

ALSO A "PULLING" FORCE MIGHT BE USABLE.....(not just a "pushing"-Force-Action...)
THOUGH THEN PER ALTERING THE SET-UP OF MOVEABLE "SOFT-IRON-RODS/PIECES"....!!

------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Labouring Week and a pleasant Early Winter.....

and For Whom It is Relevant : Merry Xmas 2008  &  Happy newYear 2009 !

TO
THE HONOURABLE  COURSE  OF  OU  !!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 26, 2008, 01:49:04 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

MIght I kindly briefly per a few sentences just hint about :

**********The "All" of Interactions between 2 separate nearby EachOther
Electrical Short-Solenoides in Means of
BOTH the mechanical-Works-Integral : S ( Fmag * dl )
AND   the Effects-Powers-Integral      : S ( Current(t) * Voltage(t) )..........!!

--------------------------------------------------

Allthough this Continued-going-on-Discussion per Replies to Replies
is mostly meant to be about SMOTS..........
THEN still "some" Realizings about Electrical Currents Coils
might also "do" in such  Discussions about SMOTS.......!!

---------------------------------------------------

mentioned COMMERCIAL to Magnetical Materials /
Shieldings of Low Frequencies........
interesting in means of the Physics-Maths-Theoremes about
ElectroMagnetical Fields.......!!
------------------------------------------------------------

The Honourable Idealistical significantly important  Course  of  OU  !!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Early Winter
and For Whom It Relates : Merry Xmas 2008  &  Happy NewYear 2009  !!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: molux on November 26, 2008, 06:34:13 PM
I all,

I can't wait the Demo Butch.... i'm so ecxited....

Molux
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: molux on November 27, 2008, 12:39:37 PM
Hy Sirs,

(I can edit my previous message...)
I juste ask imself where come from this claim :"OU motors with a 50:1 output:input now possible !" (in red on top of the forum) ?

Molux
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 27, 2008, 01:53:37 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !

Might I kindly briefly just-a-little "Moneys-savingly" mention about :

"have" i.e. most-lower-Frequencies-HF-suitable ferrites "Beads & Tubes".....
and "HF-ferrites-Aerial-Long-Rods"......

to might A-PART away from the Original Device for to use for
H-magnetical-fields-experiments.....................!!

And how about the fairly "strong" wall-notes-plates/refrigerators-front-plates
and how about magnetes as A-PARTED away from small/medium-sized "standard"
DC-commutators-motors(generators) .................
YES, THÃ‰N the really "strong" magnetes from "move-forth-back"-a-jumping-magnetes-rod
cased in a "clear-plastics"-cylinders-LAMP...
for to "drive" White-litting LEDS....
(though per a most too little accumulator-package)...............!!

THÃˆN the p.t.-times really "small-sized" commercially manufactured "Self-inductance" per
Coil wound on "little" open-fields-mu-r-ferrites-mini-rod..........

YES...........if-when "cheaply"-priced Components might do well in Experiments....also for OU....
thÃ©n o.k.......for surden COMMERCIALS DO MENTION RATHER" LARGE" NEW COMPONENTS PRICES OF SURDEN MAGNETES AND FERRITES MATERIALS , e.t.c. !

--------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and sooncoming Weekend and thanks about The nearly Past Season of Y 2008........
and have Yourselves a pleasant WinterÂ´s Time and Seasonal Events.....!!

And For Whom It Relates :  Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !

The Honourable  Course  of  OU  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: dean_mcgowan on November 27, 2008, 02:13:32 PM
Butch I have eleventy million dollars that says this is just another anomaly where people cant quite see that by you moving the magnet into the field you are actually imparting enough energy to change the balance (potential) of the magnetic fields, no more .. no less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: scotty1 on November 28, 2008, 01:28:16 AM
HaHaHa...
The fact is...It is not one current...THEY ARE 2 CURRENTS.
The field around a conductor is a dual field and THEY ARE DIVERGING AWAY.
Now if you put some filings around then the currents will use the filings as a path to RE-CONVERGE and so the filings will be dipoles, but the dipole is made when the currents are running against each other.
It is not so much of a curl either....the currents are thrown out of the copper wire radially all around, just like our spiral galaxy....in a right hand twist...and from both directions in the wire.
The curl is a product of the field from the conductor diverging away and acting on the Earth's magnetic field, which is the next path of least resistance for the currents to follow.
Stand on the tropic of cancer and put copper wire in an E/W position...run pos current in E end and Neg current in W end of copper wire.
The copper wire now feels a force that would move it to the Equator of the Earth, and the Earth would be magnetized by the copper wire the same way it is now.
Now stand on the tropic of capricorn and put copper wire E/W..run pos current in E end and Neg current in W end of copper wire.
The wire now feels a force that will move it to the Equator, and the Earth would be magnetized the way it is now.
That is why a coil will always pull the core to its center.
To make currents with a single wire...the metal will have to be placed in such a way that the currents enter from the middle and run to the ends...then the metal will be a permanent magnet.
Take a hard steel wire 1" long...put in filings to see there is no magnet in it.
Put 18" long, 1/8" dia copper wire in E/W position, pos in E end,,neg in W end of wire.
Put hard steel wire vertically on top of the copper wire, right in the middle of the copper wire, touching it.
Hold tight...touch car battery for a moment...
Remove hard steel wire and dip in filings, then you will see there is still mo magnet in the needle.
Now move lower end of needle just below the copper wire on the N side.
Hold tight...touch battery for a moment...now put the lower end of that needle in filings and you will see the filings stick to the needle....
Hang that lower end now just above the middle of the copper wire.
Touch battery for a moment and the needle will swing North.
During the time you held the needle vertically on top of the copper wire...the currents were not able to use it as a path to run in...the currents only run from end to middle and accross and so the needle was not magnetized.
During the time the needle's lower end was below the copper wire on the N side, the currents diverging from the wire were able to use the needle as a path, and so the needle was magnetized, and it will be permanent.
When the currents are started in an orbit..they will never stop until the orbit is broken.

"I believe that if some enterprising man would analyze the magnet metal which comes straight from the earth he would find that the metal is not built up by protons and electrons, but by north and south pole individual magnets."......Ed. Leedskalnin. 1946

They are the cosmic force.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Elnorel on November 29, 2008, 06:23:23 PM
To the INVENTORS.

Because of your bickering on who has done/got what first, and patenting fiasco, we (the rest of the world) are still running things on oil/coal and line governments big fat wallets.

Get your grip together and let free energy into the world. Screw patent and claims and whatnot.
If you intend on hoarding the knowledge and wait on the grace of your wonderfull government to grant you patents, then we are never seeing free energy, because too much money is tied up into energy business. No way in hell they will grant you a patent you can make any money off. Youre in their playground now and youre after a piece of their pie.

Its gonna play out like this:
â€¢ You develop a device
â€¢ You file for a patent
â€¢ You get a bit greedy and you try get some investors in to get the "bussiness" rolling
â€¢ Time passes, world yaawns (1 - 8 years)
â€¢ Patent office writes back and informs you either that such a device allready exists under a different name and you would have to reformat your claim or some such, causing another delay.
â€¢ You get some investors or government assasinates you and we forget all about that wonderfull device you "sommebody" (yes we cant even recall your name anymore) was working on.
â€¢ We still run appliances and homes on oil.

The way it should play out to get a world in a better shape:
â€¢ You develop a device
â€¢ You proove it works to the people
â€¢ You make contengency plans if something was to happen to you or the device
â€¢ You publish papers online with diagrams for evey Joe out there soo he can build it on his own

â€¢ Government is screwed with this new FACT and has to addapt
â€¢ There is either a revolution, or mankind opens up a new chapter in human history on how we beat powerty, war,...
â€¢ And yes, you will be remembered as a man who freed people from this slavery to energy moguls.
â€¢ And yes were damn sure to make you ritch. Just immagine, a man that saved Earth opening up a donation page.  You would get millions upon millions of donations. If indeed economy would exist as such that is. But still, you wont go hungry or anyone else for that matter ever again.

Its either that or you keep worrying about your precious device and your BILLs and hoping you will get a patent granted, you will get investors and a fat big wallet.

I appologize for vocabulary quirks, as I am not a natural English writer.  ::)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on November 29, 2008, 06:42:49 PM
Oh, if it was only that simple and true......

There are other scenarios played.

For example: Would you be so willing to publicly give such information if it meant innocent members of your family suffering in a multitude of ways just because you decided to become a humanitarian?

-or-

Broadcast the information knowing that you will be forced to drive to another country for life giving medications for a family member just because you loose your job, health care, retirement income and all the benefits of past labors. Why? To be a humanitarian?

I suppose I could be a martyr for such a cause but you can stuff it if you think I will put innocent family members through it so I can be 'the good guy un-remembered' - again.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Elnorel on November 29, 2008, 06:54:37 PM
Oh, if it was only that simple and true......

There are other scenarios played.

For example: Would you be so willing to publicly give such information if it meant innocent members of your family suffering in a multitude of ways just because you decided to become a humanitarian?

-or-

Broadcast the information knowing that you will be forced to drive to another country for life giving medications for a family member just because you loose your job, health care, retirement income and all the benefits of past labors. Why? To be a humanitarian?

I suppose I could be a martyr for such a cause but you can stuff it if you think I will put innocent family members through it so I can be 'the good guy un-remembered' - again.

Once again.

Yes i would wholehartedly decided to let the information loose.

Once the genie is out of the bottle,.. you know the rest. It would be kinda pointless for the government threats then right?
Besides, you gave that statement not thinking first. If the inventor is true of heart and is trying to get this out, dont you think hes allready in their sights?  If the inventor knows that, then why is he wasting his time on getting this thing out when he knows his family is threattened and he will never be permitted to get this thing out?

OK said that,... he can give the technology to someone else anonimously, and he gets it out as long as it gets out.

THEY (by this I mean the oposition, corporations and governments, oil cartels..) are genuinely screwed if this gets into public domain.
Killing one lone inventor and his whole family and close distant relatives is not gonna help them. Once the genie is out of the bottle, the revolution can not be stopped.

As they are, but a few in control of many. Once you loose that control youre as good as dead. Their time is comming.

The inventor I am reffering to is SM whos invention is known to you allready. Allso I see a nice movement in free energy bussiness in Australia. This is comming out and no idle threats are gonna make any difference. They better buckle their bellts, write their wills, get their affairs in order, ...

Patent office is nothing more than a filtering system on what people should and should not know.
Its a body for control. Who else likes to control their subjects? (fill the blanks yourself).

I trully admire SM if his invention or rather adaption works. We all know 95% of todays free energy comes from none other but Nikola Tesla work. But I dont mind that. Humanity has been put on hold for 100 years, its time these things come out.
They made enough fortune through controlling the technology to suit their vision of the world.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on November 30, 2008, 10:38:07 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
and
of This The OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

Might I kindly briefly interfere into Your interesting important
continued-going-on Discussions
per my few mere sentences :

**********It is possible to make a SMOT in surden Functional "Ways"........
"Ways" per Classical Mechanical Functionings of a kind of
"All-only"-Magneto-Statics.............!!

>>If-when "having" a Classical Mechanical OU-Device functioning per
>>some "Point-Size-Objects" expressing Force to Surroundings and
>>being "acted-on-by-an-other-ObjectÂ´s-Force"............
>>i.e.  "like"  "Ideal-Mass-Objects"........
>>i.e. "like"   "Ideal-Electro-Statical Q-Charges".........
>>THÃ‰N might somehow be "expected" ,
>>that the socalled "Regular-Sized-Rods-Ends-H-Poles" might be
>>arranged to act in a "Dual/Twin-2-Devices"-SMOT.....
>>for if the Permanent-H-magnetes-Rods are "long-enough".....
>>THÃ‰N the H-fields-gradientes of Rods-Ends "form"
>>a seemingly "local"-SpaceÂ´s H-"Charge" (in Means of Elder Magneto-Statics-Theses)...
>>SUCH might be applied for surden Classical-Mechanical OU-DEvices functioning
>>per Classical Mechanical Forces (in Means of Original Classical Mechanics Founding Theses)

******************"
Often" a SMOT-Action is "claimed" per involving Gavitational "pull/push-away"......
SUCH might be "substituted" i.e. per a "Spring"..................

-----------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Winter and
Joyfull Seasonal Happenings.........
and For Whom It Relates : Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 01, 2008, 01:36:55 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Might I kindly briefly per a few mere Wordings-Sentences
just mention about a SURDEN Aspect related to Elder Classical Magneto-Statics :

******************
A Regulary Shaped Properties-Isotropical Cylindrical
Mu-r-permeabilities-Rod
allthough depending on the mu-r-value
DOES NOT  "JUST"  "take-away" from a locally surrounding
Space to The Rod  "All" of Exterior H-Magnetical-Fields.......
"for" to "let"  "through"  The Rod instead.......
(with kind References to mostly per Sketches depicted Situation in
Physics/Technical Litteratures Publications ).............!!

For some OU-Experimentators & OU-Theoretics THIS is a WELL-KNOWN
Circumstance :
>> to would attempt to "make" a LOCAL SPACE  "surrounded" by
some  N pcs of  "Same-Signed" H-poles......
for to let surden Positions-in-Space be  COUNTER-OUT-BALANCED by
summarizing the TOTAL of H-Fields.........

AND "HERE" THE  OU-"Alternative-Physics/Technics/Maths"  DO THE
PRACTICS OF NECESSARY  "QUESTIONINGS"  LIKE i.e. :
>> If THÃ‰N some of the "Same-Signed" H-poles  are translatorically MOVED
>> as referenced to some of the OTHER  (perhaps-as-STILL-STANDING)
>> "Same-Signed" H-poles ==>> "would" THÃ‰N STILL be a In-Total-
>> Out-Balanced H-Magnetical-Field in the Positions of
>> Compared-to
>> "If-All-Same-Signed-H-poles are
>> NOT moving referenced to Each Others"...................

that "in MORE CLOSE" Details to would describe
such a Physical Situation of "Same-Signed-H-poles"
WOULD UN-VEAL some rather "UN-DEFINIED"
ASpects of Elder Classical Forces-Theses and
of Elder Classical Magneto-Statics-Theses and
of Elder ElectroDynamics-Theses....................

to UN-VEAL in a soon Near-Future
will be in Aims of to would HONOUR
The OU-Researches
and
The Alternative Physics .......!!

Many really important Practical & Theoretical Results have appeared
per Hardlabored Researches in OU and in Alternative Physics during

----------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a Pleasant WinterÂ´s Time
and Joyfull Seasonal Happenings Events
and For Whom It Relates : Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: timmy1729 on December 01, 2008, 10:05:50 PM
To the INVENTORS.

Because of your bickering on who has done/got what first, and patenting fiasco, we (the rest of the world) are still running things on oil/coal and line governments big fat wallets.

Get your grip together and let free energy into the world. Screw patent and claims and whatnot.
If you intend on hoarding the knowledge and wait on the grace of your wonderfull government to grant you patents, then we are never seeing free energy, because too much money is tied up into energy business. No way in hell they will grant you a patent you can make any money off. Youre in their playground now and youre after a piece of their pie.

Its gonna play out like this:
â€¢ You develop a device
â€¢ You file for a patent
â€¢ You get a bit greedy and you try get some investors in to get the "bussiness" rolling
â€¢ Time passes, world yaawns (1 - 8 years)
â€¢ Patent office writes back and informs you either that such a device allready exists under a different name and you would have to reformat your claim or some such, causing another delay.
â€¢ You get some investors or government assasinates you and we forget all about that wonderfull device you "sommebody" (yes we cant even recall your name anymore) was working on.
â€¢ We still run appliances and homes on oil.

The way it should play out to get a world in a better shape:
â€¢ You develop a device
â€¢ You proove it works to the people
â€¢ You make contengency plans if something was to happen to you or the device
â€¢ You publish papers online with diagrams for evey Joe out there soo he can build it on his own

â€¢ Government is screwed with this new FACT and has to addapt
â€¢ There is either a revolution, or mankind opens up a new chapter in human history on how we beat powerty, war,...
â€¢ And yes, you will be remembered as a man who freed people from this slavery to energy moguls.
â€¢ And yes were damn sure to make you ritch. Just immagine, a man that saved Earth opening up a donation page.  You would get millions upon millions of donations. If indeed economy would exist as such that is. But still, you wont go hungry or anyone else for that matter ever again.

Its either that or you keep worrying about your precious device and your BILLs and hoping you will get a patent granted, you will get investors and a fat big wallet.

I appologize for vocabulary quirks, as I am not a natural English writer.  ::)

First, don't worry about the English writing. It's my native language and heaven help me if I have to write a paper. Anyway...

I totally agree with you. This is one thing I hope to achieve in my life: helping to restore the balance between humans and nature, starting with clean and free energy. Should I be so fortunate as to come up with an original idea or build something already invented but forgotten that will free people from the shackles of greed, I would put all my work in the public domain and start a donation website too :-)

I would, however, make sure I had moved somewhere else BEFORE releasing the work. I would send it to as many people as possible and have them put it on their servers and at a set time announce it all at once and make the biggest stink I can until everyone knows.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Doug1 on December 01, 2008, 10:21:49 PM
Scotty
Do you still have your PMH,the big one?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on December 02, 2008, 02:18:58 AM
Besides, you gave that statement not thinking first.

??? ??? ???

Really?

Invent something of this nature and proceed as you stated. Be my guest, PLEASE!   ;D

I hope you succeed in your plans. I really do!

Just remember you were told - reality has a nasty habit of biting you from behind.

I'm done with this conversation.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 02, 2008, 11:14:45 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

And my especially mentioning about welldone Attentions-/
Warnings-Notes  from i.e.
the Honoured Profiles   timmy1729   and   BEP  !!

______________________

Might I kindly briefly merely just mention about The SMOT
in Circumstance of  :

A CASE OF SCIENCE/TECHNICS HONOUR

THE SMOT and surden GRAVITATIONAL "WHEELS"/"LOOPS-BANDS"
DO REALLY ARE "TROUBLESOME" TO WOULD REALIZE ABOUT
IN "VIEWS" OF OU...........!!

Might I kindly frankly merely mention about ,
that "I Self" did "start" with "Own" Researches about
"Matters" of Energy-Generation and OU.........
for by "my" aiming per "Strict Science/Technics-Evaluations-Methods"
"I" "got"  CLEAR  Results about ,
that surden Physics-Theses about : "Conservation of Energy"-etc-etc
are "just" meant as "Theses"..........!!

And without UN-VEALING any "Secrets" :
"my" "first" Results about Energy-Generation and OU in
"fact" were closely related to "Classical Means of Space-Drive".......!!

THÃ‰N "followed" the "more" of possible OU-Methods
per   "ELECTRICAL CURRENTS-"-Actions and per
"Electro-Dynamical"  Actions..............!!

And by "having" thus "my" "sure" "own" Results of "OU-Methods
per Electrical Currents-Actions  and per ElectroDynamical Actions.....

THÃ‰N "I" could "allow" for "some" further "researching" into the
SO-TROUBLESOME-PROBLEMATICS of aiming for
OU  per  THE SMOT  and  THE  GRAVITATIONAL  WHEEL and Alikes Intended Methods...!!

"I SELF"  still AIM for realizing and constructing SMOT & Gravitational Wheel  Actions
from a "Point of View" like ==>> "The hardlaboring former Times many experimenting
PersonsÂ´s Idealisms might be PRAISED & HONOURED by "MAKING" such
OU-Actions of THE SMOT and of GRAVITATIONAL WHEELS....."

For ALTERNATIVE PHYSICS & MATHS  DO  PERFORM  WELL.......
are NOT "DOGMES" of The notorious too-well-established Dogmes-Physics & Maths-

MANY "NEW"  RESULTS HAVE "ARRIVED"  BY  RESEARCHING  IN
ALTERNATIVE  PHYSICS  LIKE  IN THE OU-RESEARCHES........!!

___________________________

Might I kindly briefly merely just mention about :
>> to RE-ARRANGE THe ORIGINAL CLASSICAL MECHANICS FORMALISMS.....
>>
>> to RE-DISCUSS ABOUT The ORIGINAL CLASSICAL MECHANICS
>> FOUNDING  THESES............
>>
>> a selected Ex. of possible Discussion :
>> "The Circumstance of THE CLASSICAL MASS in Classical Electro-Dynamics=>>
>> HOW is THe Classical Mass INVOLVED in Classical Electro-Dynamics (and by
>>  "more" than "just" to would realize the p.t.-forgotten "Electro-Dynamical Mass-Action"..)

_________________________________

YES....there have been surden "most Personal" Discussions in The OU-Forum.....

might such "Discussions" perhaps be "concerned" as a Circumstance of the most
important Aims for OU and gaining MORE of "well" Knowledges to Mankind...!!
____________________________________

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Winter and
For Whom It Relates :  Merry Xmas 2008  &  Happy NewYear 2009  !!

And my Thanks to Your All for Your All of interesting important Contributions to
The Honourable  Course  of  OVER-UNTY....!!

PS :
Also to be "remembered" about ,  allthough this is The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum :
The socalled 2.nd.Degree of "PM"-Action per "Thermodynamical Heat converted
into "Mechanical/Electrical-Energy"........!!
(A selected e.g. as for Discussions about the Magnifying-glass and "Random ThermoDynamical
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: timmy1729 on December 02, 2008, 02:38:08 PM
Once again.

Yes i would wholehartedly decided to let the information loose.

Once the genie is out of the bottle,.. you know the rest. It would be kinda pointless for the government threats then right?
Besides, you gave that statement not thinking first. If the inventor is true of heart and is trying to get this out, dont you think hes allready in their sights?  If the inventor knows that, then why is he wasting his time on getting this thing out when he knows his family is threattened and he will never be permitted to get this thing out?

OK said that,... he can give the technology to someone else anonimously, and he gets it out as long as it gets out.

THEY (by this I mean the oposition, corporations and governments, oil cartels..) are genuinely screwed if this gets into public domain.
Killing one lone inventor and his whole family and close distant relatives is not gonna help them. Once the genie is out of the bottle, the revolution can not be stopped.

As they are, but a few in control of many. Once you loose that control youre as good as dead. Their time is comming.

The inventor I am reffering to is SM whos invention is known to you allready. Allso I see a nice movement in free energy bussiness in Australia. This is comming out and no idle threats are gonna make any difference. They better buckle their bellts, write their wills, get their affairs in order, ...

Patent office is nothing more than a filtering system on what people should and should not know.
Its a body for control. Who else likes to control their subjects? (fill the blanks yourself).

I trully admire SM if his invention or rather adaption works. We all know 95% of todays free energy comes from none other but Nikola Tesla work. But I dont mind that. Humanity has been put on hold for 100 years, its time these things come out.
They made enough fortune through controlling the technology to suit their vision of the world.

How about 95% of today's electricity period comes from the work of Nikola Tesla? IMHO, anyway.

I think that something as important to the balance of nature, ending world hunger, and ending war as free energy is, people would see exactly how important it really is and not be so greedy. I see where an inventor wants to patent his work(I don't agree with patents, but that's another post), find someone to produce whatever, and he get paid his royalties and his name stamped on the invention. But I think that if I came up with something so important, such as a radiant energy device, I would not hesitate to put it in public domain. Knowledge belongs to the world. I think that Elnorel is right in that, if you set up some kind of donation system, you would never have to worry about \$ again. Personally, giving humans a way to help restore balance in nature between us and the environment would make ME a fulfilled person because the world would be better off because I was here. But, that's just me. Most other people have different purposes in their lives. I just hope that someone who already has this kind of technology working stops trying to make a buck and starts saving the world.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Thaelin on December 04, 2008, 08:38:15 AM
I just have to ask newton2, where is that avatar from?

thaelin
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 04, 2008, 11:13:12 AM
Hello Honoured Profiles and
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Might i kindly briefly just mention about :

The socalled "90degrees" Action of H-magnetical Fields........
allthough there"IS" such a kind of Action ,
THÃ‰N to would attempt to use for OU
though would involve to "should"
realize about the Classical Mechanical Founding Theses
& Related like i.e. "The Integral of FORCE x Way"........!!

The Importances and Circumstances of Classical Mechanics TORQUE....!!

It IS possible to make Actions of surden SMOTS by respective Methods & layouts ,
though eventually "NOT" as thÃ©n ALSO  with "associated" OU....!!

--------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and sooncoming Weekend and a pleasant winter;
and For Whom It Relates : Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009 !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 06, 2008, 01:25:57 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

Might I kindly briefly per a few mere Sentences just hint about
this Aspect.......:

***********The Situation & Circumstance of an isotropically-homogeneous Properties
Mu-r-permeabilities-material formed as a Closed Ring
to place "through-around" an Electrical Currents Winding
in such a fashion ,
that the WindingÂ´s Inner-area is NOT completely , though only some partly ,
filled out by the Mu-r-permeabilities-Material (in Rings-Shape...) ;
THÃ‰N further to state a Criteria about ,
that the "Ring" is SHAPED to "FOLLOW" the Original WindingÂ´s LOCAL
(to say: NONE of oblique angles between "air-cored WindingÂ´s" Original
H-FieldÂ´s Classical Thesed "H-Lines" and Mu-r-MaterialÂ´s local PartsÂ´s
Incremental-Rings-Closed-loops-"lines".........)<=.....................

THÃ‰N  BY  "ANALYZING" SUCH A SITUATION .......
THÃ‰N SOME OTHER OFTEN
REPEATED DISCUSSIVE MATTERS MIGHT
"CLEARER-LY" APPEAR LIKE....
these OU-discussive MattersÂ´s Aspects of these few elementary
Examples-Given :

##To tresspass/circumpass the LenzÂ´s "Law"-Theoreme.....!

##To state about possible Interactions-couplings between separate Windings
per H-fields"  "guided-through" Mu-r-Materials......!

##Surden SMOTS-Circumstances  (the H-gradientes of Mu-r-materials....) and
(the Kind of SMOT without any Mu-r-material involved.....).......!

##Might 2 separate Windings interactively-H-fields-couple per diamagnetical
Materials placed inbetween the 2 separate Windings.......!

##The differences in Properties between "common" dia-magnetical Materials and
The "Dia-magnetical" Super-Conductor.....!

##The Problematics of Practically-applied Maths  if-when to would determine about
"very-small" Movements of Mu-r-Materials "used" for H-fields-couplings
between 2 (or more numbers of) separate Windings.........!

##"Also" the Mu-r-Material might be "used" by being "wound-around".......!

These few mere Examples are of course NOT fullfilling of "explaining" "All" of
Problematics & Situations of
[ INTENDED OU ] -Ideas
per Classical ElectroDynamics and Classical Magneto-Statics.....!!

---------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend anda pleasant WinterÂ´Â´s Time...

and For whom It Relates :     Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy Newyear 2009  !!

to the  Honourable  Course  of  The OU.....!!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: scotwhite on December 07, 2008, 01:57:10 AM
You know i agree to a great degree to what Elnorel is saying.
There are hundreds of experimentors that have accomplished OU and anti grav and so on but none of it is on the market.why?
Simple the system is not designed to profit from this type of tec.
So seems to me if you want to establish these principles and give this new tec to the world then someone or many need to sacrifice something like time, money, ego, knowledge, gain, recognition and so forth.
Not like you aren't doing some of that already it's plain to see.But maybe we need to unify some how and really do for others as we would do for ourselves.
I can hardly understand electrical and electronic circuits but i can understand mechanics and i have a few machine tools and i am willing to build whatever for whom ever if it is well thought out and there is an agreement as to possibility of it working.
I will do it for free and I will pay for the materials unless I just can't come up with the money then I will pay for as much as I can. If I need to do more just ask.
my name - Scot    I live in Indiana  Fort Wayne
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Elnorel on December 08, 2008, 11:04:03 AM
WARNING: LENGTHY POST !!!
(do not comment if you have not read it in its entirety)

The point we are at now is the following.

OK lets say you're a scientist or just simply a practitioner in mechanics/electricity and you are experimenting with some old work from lets say Tesla.

One day you come to a breakthrough (finally find that necessary frequency) that makes the device work (produce OU).

You feel like you just hit a LOTO jackpot, you feel ecstatic, you just want to tell the world.
Then the rational part of your brain hits in and you start to think.

Thoughts that arise (depending on the what kind of a person you are)
â€¢ I could proffit from this / How can I make money from this
â€¢ What should I do next I don't know anyone who could help me push this out
â€¢ I wonder if there is any patent preventing me from making this a reality
â€¢ If I release this in the world, my life is pretty much forfeit !?!
â€¢ Monday I'm off to the patent office and I'm gonna make some inquiries

OK once you've sorted yourself and you have your patents pending and whatnot, you feel more comfortable getting this out. You give little tidbits of information on some forum or similar just to get people on track. You wont give out any relevant info because your patent is PENDING and you don't know if anyone is gonna beat you to it (fortune, money, bling-bling).

Giving out this info (to the people)  is like donating a winning LOTTO jackpot to the world. At least that's how you feel about it. (human nature I guess).

All the big cartels that make trillions of dollars know psychology of people all too well and are playing on that card.

First they come to you, offering you large sums of money to buy this from you and a promise you wont say anything ever again, go live in Miami in a style, raise a family, have white picket fence and a dog (or whatever makes your fancy).

If this approach fails, they use a alltogether different approach. They play on all your fears and intimidate you. You would for example turn up dead in a sewer or similar, or your family (loved ones) would get it. You offcourse being human play this game according to standard human psychology which without a doubt makes you listen to them and you grow silent, never speak of it again.

If even this approach fails (the intimidation), they make your life a living hell. They have the power bankrupt you/your company, frame you with some crime,... you name it, they can do it. Your life turns to hell.

If even this doesn't work, they call in the sweep team that erases you from the world. (tragic accident if you have a family or a downright assassination).
--------------------------------------------------

Lets say you screw them by releasing the information to the world via proxy. In other words, through another person who has a certain immunity to all of this.
You're asking yourself "OK who is immune from them?".
A just question I sadly don't have an answer too, well at least not a complete bullet proof one.
If It were me. I would do the following:

A: Its clear by now that you and your whole life is being monitored, in other words you have been put on a MAP. They have you in their sights.

B: In order to give this info out, you first have to make some failsafes; which include compiling info and opening up safes in different SMALL banks that are not a part of some big conglomerate, giving an envelope to the postal service safe account to be delivered to some news media in the event of your untimely death or delivered in a certain time (1 year from now).

C: Now you can start really thinking how you can give this out and hopefully earn some cash in the process. Luckily for you we live in the information age and internet is freely available to us. Sure its monitored, but we have a way around this, at least those of us that are a little more computer savvy you could say. Onion proxy approach would be your best bet, from a public library even better. If you're not into computers and have none of the required skill, these things will be next to impossible to you.

D: Your best and only defense is the trust in other people. First your immediate circle of people in the family and later on-line comunity (this forum is a great example).

E: It may seem to you that you're in controll of your life as it is and all of this is a bunch of nonsense and that I am exaggerating. But keep in mind the following to be a fact in today's information age. First time you make your device known and it is prooven that it works (telling and proving it on the forum, youtube and in patent office), you're in the tracking system. You will not see or hear them, but they can hear and see you, trust me.

As I was saying, in order to screw hem completely and utterly is to distribute this information on the internet in the widest possible way.
Forums, youtube, google video, news media,.. I mean just hit it full throttle. So it cant be deleted, censored and your life threatened.

Make yourself open to the widest degree. Give out your full name, address, homepage info and how people can contact you.
Why would you do such a "dumb" thing you ask? Simply because it will make you untouchable. If you're in the media, everyone knows who you are and EVERYONE knows if anything happens to you, proving that your info is something to kill for.
Sure its a gamble, but that's only 2nd approach if the first approach I mentioned earlier doesn't work.

Steps: Compile info, get a camera and film the prototype if you have one, digitize the media, prepare upload accounts previous to redistributing the info. Accounts for free picture upload service, video service like youtube, google, make a forum, livecam portal.
Find out what are the emails of journalists in news media news media (don't think only in your country, think abroad. If you're in US think EU, If you're in EU, think US, Russia, Asia.

Once you release, all hell will break loose in the next hour or so. Your mobile might start to ring, email will get flooded,.. you will be the man people will want to get in contact with. Getting media exposure is your protection. Don't make dates far ahead,.. like yes sir I will show in your studio on Friday,.. etc. Say you want to be in the evening news, gather momentum, get this thing wide open to the world.

All this can play out quite differently. If in the next 24 hours nothing happens, you're in trouble. It means you didn't try hard enough, or didn't contact nearly enough people or you missrepresented yourself to them.

If all goes right, at least 3 major newsmedia would be ringing your phone and/or be at your doorstep. It would be wise to go there personally even before you make an announcement making it additional safeguard.

If It were me, I would Upload all media to proper places on the internet via proxy offcourse. Make a website (offline). Make a bot to release the information on a certain time, date etc.
Having this timed and prepared I would walk to newsmedia building, meet an editor, explain and prove everthing to him and try to get him to make an evening special. Explaining to him the fact that info is going on-line at lets say 7 in the evening and if he doesn't want to air you, you would go to the competition giving them exclusivity. Either way, he will see your proof, he will want to air you if his not in "their" pocket.
Just make it certain you show it to him that this is history in the making, a new step for humans all over the world. independence from energy.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Mr. M on December 08, 2008, 03:10:55 PM
If it were me I would make archive everything up, upload it to as many places I could and not take any credit for it at all... Watching the ensuing chaos would be reward enough for me.

Sadly, though, I'm never going to discover OU.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2008, 08:12:01 PM
Elnorel is thinking! I love to read great thinking. Elnorel, I commend you, as there's nothing wrong with be cautious, especially when something as grand as global "free energy" is at stake. Such precautions are inexpensive, you could say they're "free."

Over the years I occasionally think of what to do if I had the "smoking gun."  It depends what the device is. If it's difficult and/or expensive for people to replicate, then one needs to take a different step.

Here's what I would do if I had a "free energy" machine that was easy enough for common people to replicate and affordable -->

Find people, anyone who may appear open-minded. In Los Angeles, California, there are places such as Venice beach walk where there are plenty of open-minded people on weekends. This is a place where anyone can bring their own stand and sell whatever they want. Typically you find anything from new age crystals to tatoo artist.

I would ask him if he's open-minded and interested in seeing a "free energy" machine.  If he's interested, then somehow you need to take him to an isolated location to demonstrate it. Tell him that you're not selling anything, and that your sole interest is in getting as many people replicating it as possible. Your goal is to get the person to replicate your device, and have the person do what you're doing.

You could think of this as a pyramid scheme, except you're not making money. The idea is to get people to replicate your device, and get them to find replicators, etc. I would have a small set of rules on paper, that each person would in turn copy. One rule is to never give information that would allow anyone to track you down. Your goal is to help these people replicate the device, and encourage them to do what you're going. Once you accomplish that goal, you'll never see the person again. That way, nobody could track you down.

So this would only work if it's a device that *obviously* produces usable amounts of power, and that's inexpensive and easy to replicate. This method will not work for my diode array, even though I have the proof.

This method would explode across the nation. There's nothing anyone could do about it. I've seen far more than enough to know that anyone who tries to make money from a "free energy" machine will not succeed. Trust me, you'll make money with the above method, but not on the devices first version. Once the word gets out across the world, then you can begin improving your device, version 2. You can sell version 2, 3, etc.  A lot of people don't want to build a machine. They just want to buy it. You'll have more customers than you could possibly keep up with.

PL
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2008, 08:24:19 PM
I forgot to add:  Get a provisional patent on your second version devices, but wait a bit for the first version. Wait until the replicators spread across the world. Then you can get a provisional patent of the first version if you wish.

That brings up the issue with encrypting your full name, address, and info in the replication xerox sheet. I would provide the hexadecimal text that encrypts this information on the replication sheet. Hex text is -->

7F34A9ED710BCA89FE5C ...

That way you will have your full name, address, and info on thousands of sheets that the replicators will have.

Also, I would offer my replicators a CD or DVD that I made that would contain videos of the device operating, how to make it with every detail. Also, you could include your full information, your designs how you came up with the invention, etc., and you could encrypted name and address.

PL
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Elnorel on December 08, 2008, 09:36:34 PM
Problem with nowdays Inventors is, there probably in their 40ies and hardly know how to use a computer, let alone make any elaborate encryption and or use a proxy or other security measures. They feel exposed.

I can understand their dilemma.

All I can say is: "Google is your friend". Use search engine like google to find on-line security programs. Its 2009 allmost and there are many FULL blown anonymity suites out there to make you secure.

When encrypting never go below 256 bit. I would go 1024 or 2048 just to be safe, but in the day of quantum computing there is no telling what super-computer monstrosities our government has to unencrypt (even incredibly complex 2048 one yes).
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 09, 2008, 02:51:49 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

My kind Thanks to The Honoured Profile  Elnorel for mentioning about
The Circumstance of CODE // DE-CODE....
CRYPT // DE-CRYPT

INFORMATIONS..........like INFORMATIONS of Own Hardlabored OU-Researches .......

for NOT just TRANSMITTING OPING-LY Own Patenting/Registerings-Writings to
Patents-Bureaus......etc .......!!

[Besides from my now NOT generally defining/ disputing about
The MATTERS of INFORMATIONS.........]

Then for to follow-up just my kindly briefly mere few Sentences about IMPORTANCE
of SECURING against "eaves-dropping" THÃ‰N this E.G. about working with a Computer :

>>
>>to Self design a Cryptation-System per an all-independent-auto-consistent-
>>Working-Computer  <=>(to isolate/keep AWAY from Networks/Internet) ;
>>for nearly ALL of Officially in Publics Offered Cryptations-Systems
>>/ Algorithms are KNOWN to Governmental Services and toi
>>"Copy-Cattings-KnowHows-Spies".........!!
>>
>>and to kindly hint about :
>>Cables and Infra-red and Radio-Transmissive Networks Problematics are WELL-KNOWN
>>"Eaves-droppings-Troubles-Sources"......
>>
>>THOUGH ALSO the VERY ComputerÂ´s OWN and MONITORÂ´s OWN
>>"Functional-ElectroMagnetical-Noises"-Transmissions might be
>> "evers-dropped" for to "view" the MonitorÂ´s Screen-Informations......!!
>>
>>and most Computers DO make electromagnetical Interferences Signals
>>to also might be "eaves-dropped"-on......!!
>>
>>YES,even a Portable Computer might per Its Built-in
>>most UN-INTENDED to THe USER  "BroadCast" OUT to The Surroundings
>>the Written-on/into THe Computer while Writing-on / Picturing-on the Computer !!
>>....
>>even the CompouterÂ´s and MOnitorÂ´s "Power-Lines"-connections might indeed
>>"transmit" Electromagnetical-"Noises"-informations......NOR esy to would
>>shield-away-protect against....and some ferrites-rings are NOT enough to would
>>place on Power-lines-cords......
>>quite own auto-consistent shielded Power-sources for the Computer having
>>SECRET INFORMATIONS might HAVE to be ARRANGED for to
>>AVOID "eaves-droppings"....etc.....!!

My kind Thanks to The Honoured Profile Elnorel and some Other Honoured Profiles for Their kind important mentioning//warning about some of the many Problematics of
possible "Loosing Own Results" to
"KnowHow-Spies"
and
to "Patentings/Registerings"-Juridical-"Sharks".........!!

As a PRE-PS :
the GOOD OLD RELIABLE MECANICAL TYPE-WRITER and the GOOD OLD RELIABLE PHOTO-COPY-MACHINE......and The Micro-Photographies (Elder chemical photo-films) Techniques....!!

Such Elder Typings-Sentences-Documents might be "Opto-Electronically Scanned" WHEN
IN THE RIGHT TIME of PATENTING/REGISTERING/PUBLIC-ANNOUNCING.......

and FURTHERMORE : WHAT of reliable trustworthy WITNESSES to should ALSO
involve WHEN DUE TIME for UN-VEALING of  OU-Devices-Methods....!!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Labouring-Week and a pleasant Winter.....
and For Whom It Relates : Merry Xmas 2008  Happy NewYear 2009 !!

And my kind PS about :
Thanks about the now soon Past Season 2008.....soon the Y 2009 will appear.....

AN OTHER YEAR GONE.....AGAIN......!!

In Means of  OU  !!

Though STILL my kind Thanks to Your All important Hardlabored
Science/Technics Ideas Contributions to

The  Honourable  Course  of  OU  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TinselKoala on December 09, 2008, 03:55:16 PM
I think what newton2 is saying is that if it's on a computer, it's pretty much public, or potentially so.
If you think even 256-bit encryption will keep your secrets, think again. Because that's just what "they" want you to think.
The only safe encryption is the one-time pad, and that's too cumbersome for regular use.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 09, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
When encrypting never go below 256 bit. I would go 1024 or 2048 just to be safe, but in the day of quantum computing there is no telling what super-computer monstrosities our government has to unencrypt (even incredibly complex 2048 one yes).

I think you mean decrypt...

Just as a fact reference 256bit equates to 16x bandwidth and storage space, and 2048 bit is 256x the bandwidth and storage space. I'd use ultra low bit rates but uber long passwords and slower encryption myself. The bit rate determines how many characters represent each decrypted character. Which is why larger bit rates can sometimes lead to easier decryption. You supply two things to each hash, a single or block of characters and your key, and the rest comes from the unchanging heavily leaked algorithm. Stick to low bit rates and longer public/private keys. PGP is pretty good as it uses alternating algorithms adding a quality known as random bits. This all but guarantees that only brute force decryption can be used. The more complex the password the longer the federal teraflop clusters waste there multimillion dollar time.

longer passwords > high bit rates
~Dingus Mungus
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: infringer on December 10, 2008, 03:09:47 AM
Interesting thing about this project that just crossed my mind and I thought I would jot it down ...

The representation of the steel fanner magnet is a physical representation of how power is generated from any magnetic generator... "I think anyways"

A magnet is run perpendicular over copper wire then electron flow travels in both directions and the flow continues on down the wire.

So mentally this is how I picture this and relate this to something in the real world used every day already with the exception of steel mills...

Amazing if this turns out to big bigger then life but the again the free energy secret is there under our noses and we may see it in concept everyday and not realize it that is why I choose not to ignore things completely ...

Weather this post is worth a damn or contributes to anything is of no matter to me I just felt better to say it then just think about it and throw it out...

-infringer-
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 10, 2008, 12:58:39 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

My Thanks to The Honoured Profile Infringer for "bringing-along" in The
most recent Reply then an Ideas-Concept............I kindly suppose........
for JUST AS "CLOSE" IN IDEAS-CONCEPT as described per The INFRINGERÂ´s
Wordings
to a REAL MECHANICAL-ELECTRO-MAGNETICAL  OU-DEVICE........

I REALLY SUPPOSED , when reading at first THE INFRINGERÂ´s ReplyÂ´s-Text ,
that THE INFRINGER "DESCRIBES" per though revealingly Wordings ,
that THE INFRINGER ANNOUNCED THE BASICAL IDEAS-CONCEPT ABOUT
SUCH A REAL Mechanical-Electro-Magnetical-OU-Device "delivering"
NO-counter-torques-Electro-Generative Power............
per an elementary nearly-to-NatureÂ´s-Principles  OU-Construction.....!!

-----------------------------------
[ It is of less importance , that I Self frankly once-upon "designed" and built
such OU-Devices......to make well steerable OU-Power-Outputs of User-
Specified Current(time) and Voltage(time)-wave-forms-or-DC.........
hardly interesting......!! ]

--------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleaant Winter ;
and For Whom It Relates :  Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009  !

And my kind Thanks about Your All of interesting important Contributions to
THE  HONOURABLE  COURSE  of  OU  !!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 11, 2008, 12:56:40 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !

Might I kindly briefly per a few Sentences mention merely hintingly about :

************The Original Mechanical Computing Gears-Wheels ENIGMA
EN-cryption and DE-cryption  Devices  "had" in Their Methods some
Maths-intended-EN-&-DE-Cryptions-Algoritms.....!!

At first :
The Original Ancient RomeÂ´s socalled "Cesarian Code" was somehow
like to "shift"-"Basal-Codes-Roots"-some-"Places"-per-Each-Letter
"having" The Statical One-Basal-Roots-Code "founded" on to "choose" some
Codes-Letters to Codes-express the Languages-Letters........!!
The "STATICAL..........Code" THOUGH does NOT directly involve the WHOLE
LENGTH of THE MESSAGE<=> to say : there are NO changes in Statical......Codes-
Root  "regardless" of MessageÂ´s Length/Contents........and such "Statical.....Codes" most often might de DEcoded even in available-only as some Fragmental-Sentences........ !!

Then about "Cesarian Code"-Method .........in THAT "Code" there ARE some IN-directly
EXTRA/FURTHER-Informations about ALL of MessageÂ´s Lengths/Contents BECAUSE
of the INCORPORATED  Shifts-of-Basal-Roots-per-Letter-to-be-ENcoded...........
And if ONLY FRAGMENTAL-SENTENCES are to be DEcoded ,
THÃ‰N appear surden Problematics like i.e....: inwhere in Letters-Array ARE the
Fragmental-Sentences to be positioned ( because of Roots-per-Letters-shifts).......
THOUGH STILL it might be possible to DEcode surden long-enough Fragmental-Sentences
be fairly easy cut&try-Methods............
AND FURTHER the "Cesarian Code" even UN-veals even per long-enough-Fragmental-Sentences about THe WHOLE LENGTH of The Original Message.......just per the extra/further informations because of THe  Cesarian Code Methods Algorithm........!

"NOW" about The socalled Original Mechanical Historical Gears-Wheels-ENIGMA-Method,
inwhere BOTH is a kind of "Cesarian Code" , AND even further is a "Codes-Algorithm-Roots-Shift" also because of the SIGNEFICANT-LETTER to be ENcoded.................

IF only are some Fragmental-Sentences from such ENIGMA-ENcoded-Sentences (to suppose the SAME of Wheels-Code) ,
THÃ‰N there are even more EXTRA/FURTHER-informations involved besides the Original Message (to be EN-DE-Coded about).................
the LENGTH of the Original Message might be fairly in Maths-complexities
THOUGH somehow to surden LIMITS EVEN ALSO the WHOLE of MessageÂ´s OWN-Letters-Contents (IF though supposed the Fragmental-Sentences to be ALSO including some of the last of the Basal-Message.............)
SUCH though in Views of reliable EN-DE-Cryption of "ecret Messages" might indeed be troublesome......to say: for The-MessageÂ´s-Original-(n+1)-LetterÂ´s-GRANTED-Enigmatian-ENcoded-Letter  DOES ALSO "ENCLOSE" a "hidden" Information about the ALL of hitherto MessageÂ´s Original (n),(n-1),......1-Letters..........because of THe Enigmatian ENcode-Algorithms-Maths-Properties.......!!
(Of course such might be compensated for....to surden extents though....)

"NOW" the socalled MODERN-TIMES-EN-DE-CRYPT-Maths-Algorithms..........
the COMMERCIALLY & OFFICIALLY "OFFERED" SORTS of Algorithms
DO MIGHT per "Hacker-Computer-especial-Hacher-DE-code-Algorithms"...

SUCH have been DEMONSTRATED about.........i.e. o "BREAK" the socalled "LARGE-PRIMES-NUMBERS"-Algorithms-Codes per some "BREAK-Codes-Algoritms" resulting in FVRAGMENTAL ORIGINAL SENTENCES being "shown" together" with "Noises"........!!

Might I kindly and franly mention about :
>> OF COURSE THAT NEARLY ALL OF COMMERCIALLY & OFFICIALY OFFERED
>>EN-DE-Cryptions-Algorithms-Codes ARE MOST "KNOWN" also to
>>"Surveilling-Services" and "Sneakers" and "Eaves-Droppers-Spies"...........
>>......
>>THOUGH......YES....it IS possible to make surden UNbreakable Codes of
>>EN-DE-Cryptions of "Own Secret Informations"........
>>.......
>>for it is a "Matter of making a reliable Founding"
>>for EN-DE-Code of Informations...PLUS ALSO OF IMPORTANCE
>>to "realize and state" about [WHAT ARE INFORMATIONS in NATURE].....!!
>>..........
>>to kindly hint slightly-just-little about :
>>"SUPER"-informative Algorithms "having" involved MORE of Informations-Contents
>>THAN the SYSTEMÂ´s-Own-"Signs"-Possibilities <=>indeed most roughly briefly
>>expressed..........!!
>>......
>>and if "Such" might "sound" TOO "far-out" , THÃ‰N.....: the JUST briefly written
>>introductive explanative Wordings about "Cesarian Code" and "Enigma Codes".....!!
>>DO "hint" about some possibilities of "SUPER-Informative"-Systems......!!

------------------------

WHY discuss about EN-DE-Cryption-Circumstances in THIS continued-going-
on-Discussion of a kind of SMOT-Method to should "generate" OU............
wel-then.......tis continued-going-on Discussion "happened" to involve then also about
EN-DE-CODE of OU-written-Results/Drawings....etc !

------------------------

Might I "just" mention :
In Ancient Rome there was a Way of Speaking somehow like :
>> Ohhhh Times , Ohhhh  Morales......!  <<

In Presnt Times "Modern World" perhaps might be mentioned :
>> NO PRIVACY ANYMORE....! <<

For Whom To Trust.........For What of Consequences if Results are UNvealed/Eaves-dropped....etc !!

--------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend and a pleasant Winter ;
and For Whom It Relates :  Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009  !

make more of reliable Knowledges to

THE MANKIND

and to make Supportings to

THE  HONOURABLE  COURSE  OF  OU  !!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 16, 2008, 01:21:16 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !

THIS DATO 2008-12-16  THIS  MORNING in LOCAL TIME app. 06.21 (AM) [ app GMT 05.21]

HERE IN SOUTHERNEST of SCANDINAVIA   appeared

a FAIRLY "LARGE"  EARTH-QUAKE  (most seldom to appear here else....).....!!

THE EPI-CENTRE was located in Southernest of Sweden ;
at RICHTER-SCALE app 4.9 that Earth-Qukae I self really experienced ,
while I worked in my Office at my Table..........
FOR I LIVE JUST app. 160 kilometres (100 miles) away from The Geographical Location of the EpiCentre........!!

At first for some 10 seconds appeared "introducingly" some minor "faster" vibrations in
furnitures/building ,
THÃ‰N appeared "suddenly" the "STRONGER" vibrastions for some further 10 seconds.....
"shaking anf little of jumpings" of furnitures/items/building because of "PULSES" at rates from 3-5-5 Pulses pr. second ("jump"-alike-Pulses)..............
THÃ‰N with-in 1 second The ALL of Pulses dis-appeard/vanished away......

I knew at once to be an EARTH-QUAKE and prepared for MORE of PULSES , etc ,
plus began make "real-independent-wireless"-Radio-Transmissions to various Imortant Contacts
(meant for such eventual Public Catastrophical Situations).........

like i.e. about the Swedish "BarseBack"-PowerPlant located just some 60 kilometres (40 miles)
away from my Site......!!

(It was so "strong" . that minor cracks in some Public Roads became , perhaps
also dis-placements of Founding-Grounds to some Bridges and Railways and Buldings , etc ) !

Because of THIS UNexpected Earth-Quake , and perhaps some sooncoming Earth-Quakes ,

I HAVE TO MAKE A LONGER "BREAK/PAUSE"  IN WRITING HERE IN OVER-UNITY-FORUM....!!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day  and a pleasant Winter ;
and For Whom It Relates :  Merry Xmas 2008 & Happy NewYear 2009  !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on December 21, 2008, 07:23:29 AM
Sooooo...

Has anyone made any further progress on this concept?  I've been pondering different ways of doing this, and for a simple test I was thinking of doing a pendulum-type machine, where a 'fork' with magnets on both sides move past the steel plate piston, and there would be additional steel for the rest of the pendulum swing path to prevent it from 'sticking' the steel... and somehow output that piston movement to keep the pendulum going.

Any other ideas floating around out there?  Butch?  Yucca?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on December 21, 2008, 08:07:33 PM
I have done a bunch of testing on the expanding washer concept, but the force generated is always equal to the force required to get them back to the collapsed state.

BUT..... you need to think not washers but magnets, then use iron plates to collapse them by drawing the field away. Testing shows that this takes the same force moving out as was gained moving in!

Also, avoid moving long distances between the plates as the domain switching in the steel will consume any gain you can achieve. This is what causes a cylinder magnet to not roll down a metal plate under it's own weight.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 23, 2008, 03:34:57 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !!

Thanks to the 2 Honoured Profiles lumen  and  Blainiac
for Their respective recent Replies in this Discussions-going-on Array !

Might I kindly briefly just hint about :

**********Often are discussed and suggested about The LenzÂ´s Theoreme  (Law)
in Aspects of OU...........................
not so often mentioned THOUGH there is "ALSO" a less
known associated "Reverse-Functional" THeoreme to
The LenzÂ´s Theoreme  (Law..)......!!
Just to the "Edge" of UN-vealing I have in one of my Former Replies
to OU per combining The LenzÂ´s Theoreme  (Law..)
and Its "Reverse-Functional" THeoreme

Though "of course" would an OU founded on such Methods
"be" rather too "close" on a "Principle of Nature" for to might
thus might it therefore be possible ,
that to research into such a nearly "fundamental" OU-Method
hardly would interest to Researchers also aiming for PATENTS&REGISTERINGS !!

************

Yes......the SOFT-IRON-Washers/Bricks-pieces..........even when as "soft"
still there are the often un-realized about socalled
Soft-Iron.........."..................
SUCH socalled "EXTRA-FORMED-H-INFLUENSES-H-MULTI-POLES"
might in Physics-Aspects be quite significantly interesting as "Theorizing"-about
Matters....(and MORE)....though hardly might such be usable in some
basical SMOTS and MagnetoStatical  OU-Ideas-Methods..........

FOR MORE "FORCE" to should apply for to
MOVE AGAIN AWAY FROM SUCH
FORMED-EXTRA-H-INFLUENSES-POLES
than "ditto"-the-"gained"-attractions-Forces by bringing together/into close distances
magnetized mu-r-permeabilities-materials to Each Others........!!

As an E.G. :
"WHY" DOES NOT A SOCALLED CYLINDRICAL mu-r-materials-rollers-rod just "roll"
along
(when being exteriorly pushed/pulled to)
a surface on a BIG H-POLES-Ends-plain-Surface....
IT "STICKS"............
"because" of "Extra-H-influenses-CAUSED-H-poles" being locally "made" in
the magnetized mu-r-materials..............!!

"Of course" ALSO a signicant Circumstance of SPECIFICAL Mu-R-Permeabilities-MaterialsÂ´s
"Own-Properties" (how the mu-r-value and H-fields are FORMED internally in mu-r-materials......) !

To would "realize" of composite materials as i.e. "thin diamagnetical" Cover on mu-r-material.....
THOUGH not THÃ‰ ONLY SINGLE METHODS SMOT-WAY.......just meant kindly as a kind of "Thoughts-Experiment"......!!

--------------------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Winter and
a joyfull Time of the Last Days of Y 2008 !

Thanks about The now nearly Past Season of Y 2008  !

And for Whom It Relates :

Merry Joyfull Christmas  2008  &  Happy  Profitable  NewYear  2009  !!

And my Thanks to Your All for Your All of interesting important Contributions to

THE  HONOURED  COURSE  of  OU   !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 29, 2008, 02:31:14 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The OVER-UNITY-Forum !

************The socalled Classical-Mechanics-BOUNDARY-CONDITIONS as for
Classical Electro-Magnetics/Magneto-Statics DO might have to be in closer
as an E.G. :
"DO" the "common" Boundary-Conditions in FACT really "cope" with i.e. exterior
H-field "to" Surface on a mu-r-permeabilities-Object........

with kind Pre-Studies Reference to i.e. a Classical Evaluation about "Ellipsoidal mu-r-Objects-Form" as located in an exterior H-field............though DOES it really "be" so......OR........!!

*********************

Might I kindly Thank & Honour the Many Persons & Groups having done so important idealistical much of Researchings-& Ideas-proposing Works during several Decades ,
even Hundreds,
of Years for to obtain OU and Space-Drive.....etc.....!!

So various many of newcoming Results and Supplements to "Established-Physics" have come
from such hardlaboring idealistical Persons & Groups .....!!

**********************

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Winter;
and For Whom It Relates :  HAPPY  NEWYEAR  2009  !

Thanks about The now nearly past Season Y 2008.......!

To go for The Honourable Course of OU in Y 2009.....!

Prost NeuJahr , Happy NewYear , etc of similar Greetings in various Languages ......!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Bennyboy on December 30, 2008, 02:09:44 PM
@ newton2

Lay off the drugs buddy, your spamming posts are taking up valuable bandwidth.

Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on December 30, 2008, 02:31:15 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The OVER-UNITY-Forum !

And my formal passions-less kindly meant especial Hello to The Honoured Profile Benny Boy :
==>>there is NONE of SPAMMATIONS-PARTY in any of
==>>my Topics/Replies in various Science/Technics-Internet-Forums !
==>>and never still I wanted myself into "drugged"  !
==>>And WHO in fact writes Topics/Replies for DE-couraging OU-Ideas.....I DO NOT....
==>>though I have passions-less noticed about,
==>>Who of Honoured Profiles DOES EN-courage,
==>>Who DOES DE-courage......etc...........
==>>....................
==>>for I aim for to EN-courage for developing OU.....!!
==>>My kindly meant Opinions-Ripost.......!!
______________________________________________________________

Might i kindly just briefly mention in a causeries-texts-form .......
and the mentioned "Songs"-Refrains are NOT intended to be about any of idealistical OU/Alternative Physics/Technics/Mathematics :

"It is easy to say , easy to say , though NOT so easy to do......etc...!"
&
"In my Imagination , in my Imagination.......etc....!"

were 2 Musical Pieces on a "vinyles-Grammophones"-45rpm-disk of some 35 Years back.....
because of The EntertainerÂ´s well-suited tonal-voice-pitches plus elementary accompanying Musics-Instruments   THÃ‰N I used It as for TESTING my INFORMATIONS-ALTERING/REDUCING
Methods/Electronics-Experiments ,
i.e. as ANALOGUE and as DIGITAL ,
in Fidelities and eventual HiFi....!

"WHY" do I write THIS in the OU.......besides from briefly mentioning about PAST EXPERIMENTING TIMES..........and besides from briefly hinting about "Self-Designed/Made" Experimental Equipments.........

THÃ‰N SUCH VARIOUS ELDER TIMES EXPERIMENTS ALSO "SUPPLIED"  MY LATER ON

==>> ALL   ELECTRONICS   OU-METHODS-CONCEPTS  <<==

Just FRANKLY mentioned , not about modest/un-modest , just FRANKLY mentioned !

Indeed many Possibilities and Concepts are for OU per All-Electronics-Methods....!

Might such All-Electronics-Methods be concerned as "Principles of Nature" ...or
as PATENT-able/REGISTER-able......!!

Might it so happen , perhaps ,
that while "my" researched Basical OU-Methods DO CAN be Public-Announced as FREE to use without Patents/Registerings  (for TOO close to Principles of Nature...) ,
MIGHT THÃ‰N  ALL-ELECTRONICS OU-METHODS PERHAPS STILL BE PATENT-able/REGISTER-able..........!!

------------------------------------------

The Circumstance of Power/Effects--Integral of  [ U(time) x I(time) ]............etc !

The Circumstance of RE-arranging the Original Basical newtonian thesed Classical Mechanics !

The Circumstance of The "Large-Scales"-"Part" of Universe "versus" The "little-little-tiny-Scales"-"Part" of
Universe........!!!

Etc...etc....!

------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Winter and
For Whom It Relates following the Various WorldÂ´s Cultures :

still yet a Merry Joyfull Christmas Time 2008  &  a  HAPPY  PROFITABLE  NEWYEAR  2009  !

LET THE  OU  FUNCTION  IN  Y  2009  !!

My kind Thanks to You All for Your IN-valuable important novel Contributions to

THE  HONOURABLE  COURSE  OF  THE  OU   !

And my kind Thanks for Your All of idealistical Participations for to gaining more of

Knowledges  to The Mankind  !

And my kind Thoughts & Honourings to Past Generations of Idealistical Persons & Groups having
researched in New Aspects of Sciences & Technics & Medicines & Biologies & Agri-cultures &
More to might mention  !!

FOR TO LABOUR MAKES FREE !

THE MANKIND  ONCE-UPON  STARTED HAVING LITTLE AND BY HARD LABORING GOT MUCH  !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on December 30, 2008, 02:58:05 PM
Are you some kind of Alien? Your language usage is out of the ordinary indeed.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Bennyboy on December 30, 2008, 03:04:24 PM
@newton2

Fair enough then....at least it's not a randomly generated response (I think).

What nationality are you mate, as Broli says, your vocab is very unusual.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on December 30, 2008, 05:24:39 PM
41 pages later, and no proof for the OU by this "effect"? Why is it so obvious?

A happy New Year to all the people!
Let's get the OU next year...
Cheers!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on January 02, 2009, 01:40:48 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum !!

And my especial kind formal Greetings to the
Honoured Profiles : Broli ,  Benny Boy ,   Spinner !
______________________________________________

************YES, to should perform a linguistical "Balancing-Act" between :

##neutrally formulated in-passionate Science-Wordings
and
##NOT to UNveal too much  (yet)
and
##even further to should also "make easier" for Softwares-Languages-Translators
and
##to keep on the "Jolly ENcouraging Moodes"  in-here The OVER-UNITY-Forum.....
and etc , etc.....!

I "just" write per a few Main-Points of PRE-Rough-Sketches..........
using "Schoolars-learned"-Standard-English........!!
_____________________________________________

YES.......now p.t. THÃ‰ Page 41...........of this interesting important continued
going-on Replies Discussions Rounds founded on the original Page 1 TopicÂ´s
MethodÂ´s Idea.......!!

YES........with kind References to The Original Page 1 Topic and to The Honoured AdministratorÂ´s Comments...........
IF a Regulary Shaped "common" "short" Solenoides-Coil is "applied" for
"making" H-influenses into the 2 pcs of mu-r-rods........
mutually located fairly CLOSE to each other and "parallel"........
then "should" the 2 pcs mu-r-rods mutually "push" away per H-influensed "Same-Signs-H-poles"
.......following the P1-MethodÂ´s Idea , though to use a COIL instead of a nearby Permanent Magnetes to "act" on the 2 pcs mu-r-rods.-............THOUGH HOW THÃ‰N
into the COIL (roughly brief populary spoken.......)............

And "HERE" I have to kindly "quit" for further in details-explaning => for NOT to UNveal.........

Though still to kindly hint about :

==>> THE IMPORTANCE OF "CHOOSING"  APPROPRIATE  MOVEMENTS-TRAJECTORIES-
==>> PATHS for The 2 pcs of H-influensed mu-r-Rods...........
==>> WITH ESPECIALLY DEFINED CRITERIAS AS FOR  XXXXXXXXXXX.......!!

YES......by having a "Coil" ACTING ON the 2 pcs mu-r-Rods ,
THÃ‰N such an OU-Methods-Idea might FUNCTION......(I frankly know because of since Y-DEcades ago Self to have demonstrated about.....!!)

Well-then.......a rather OTHERWISELY BASICALLY FOUNDED PROBLEM of Smots and P1-TopicÂ´s Idea is about ,
IF-WHEN to would "use" ALL-MAGNETO-STATICS  Permanent-Magnetes for H-influensing
on the 2 pcs mu-r-Rods.......
(Such a Situation might to a surden "Point" be equivalently evaluated per NOT to would "realize" as H-Poles ,
though instead of  Q-Charges and Masses allocated "in" Positions of "H-poles"......as kept "positioned" per Forces-neutral "Rigid Pins"..........
though such otherwise Evaluations might just be TOO Theoretical.......!!.....)
__________________________________________

YES......there are the p.t.-"Our-Times" available numbes of Science/Technics related Words and wordings PLUS Standard-Linguistical Grammars to  could "use" for "explaining in only per Words-Sentences".........

"Fast Made" Drawings on Chalk-Boards ...etc.........might somehow "EN-litten" the WHOLE of Evaluations-"Po-IN-tes" & Aspects........THOUGH INDEED ALSO UN-VEAL about OU-Methods-Ideas.........!!

Allthough i have NOT The Standard-English Language as my First Original Learned Language,
THÃ‰N still "close" in Grammars and Basical Words/Wordings to Standard-English.....etc.....
and I also formulate myself/my "Explanations" if in my "Original Language"=>as "same" as in Standard-English........FOR MUCH OF EXPLANATIVE INFORMATIONS TO SHOULD INCORPORATE INTO LINGUISTICALLY PERFORMED COMPRESSED DENSE FEW NUMBERS OF SENTENCES   !.....
for Who has got Time for Small-Talkings !!........
"Little" or rather indeed much of "Confusions" would be involved if I should attempt "applying" p.t. Sorts of Languages Translators.......!!

Though if somehow......SomeOne Should So Want : THAT I SHOULD WRITE IN SOCALLED CORRECT CANCELLIES WORDINGS & SENTENCES-"FORMINGS".......THÃ‰N O.K........!!

THOUGH THÃ‰N WITHOUT ANY "MEANING" TO THE INNERMOST CORPUS OF THE HONOURABLE COURSE OF OU.....!!

OF COURSE MY "PERSONALLY" APPEARING PERSON IS OF NO REAL IMPORTANCE
COMPARED TO THE  GLORY COURSE OF OU.....!!

I HAVE BEEN DELAYED IN MAKING SOME ELEMENTARY SKETCHES ABOUT SOME ASPECTS OF i.e. OU...........to attach to my Replies.............
though at least I "will" use my Profiles-Photo for a few Days on as meant for depicting "some" Various Technics .....and "some" of  "a-little" of subtle Humors.......!!

My very Person is UN-interesting  UN-important in Aspect of
THE BIG CHALLENGE OF OBTAINING TRUE RELIABLE OU.....
now as in the Y 2009...
and as soon as possible......!!

And THEREFORE I am "glad" about the Possibility of having my nearly-fairly-Anonymous
Profile "here" in OVER-UNITY-Forum.....!!

FOR NOT TO FILL MY REPLIES WITH USE-LESS WORDINGS FURTHER-ON ,
THÃ‰N I KINDLY WROTE FOR A FURTHER OF [ Last Time ]  SUCH
ARRAYS OF NOT-so-OU-related Wordings..........in some Kind of Standard-English.....though....!!
__________________________________________

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day & a pleasant Winter &
Benefits from Your various many hardlabored Doings !

AND

THE  HONOURABLE  COURSE  OF  OU   !

AND

GAINING MORE OF RELIABLE KNOWLEDGES TO THE MANKIND  !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on January 03, 2009, 01:15:23 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !

Might I kindly briefly just mention a "little" about :

************ "Why"/"HOW"-in-fact might a socalled Class-I-closed-Ring-Cores-Transformer
per Elder-Times "Soft-Irons"-mu-r-lamelles-core
and having the Secondary as CLOSED wound "on" the Primary
"even" be "usable" for Audio-Frequencies "Transforming".............
"even" STILL also might for some Elder Transformers also "perform" for
"transforming" on frequencies more than/to some app. 20,000->30,000 Cps frequential Ratings.....!!

!!  ==>> THE  SIGNIFICANT CIRCUMSTANCE ABOUT  CLOSE-nearly-to-100%-H-fields-Couplings
between such CLASS-I-Transformers CLOSELY WOUND to Each-Other of PRIMARY to  SECONDARY as "beseen" "if" as "air-cores"-Primary-Secondary........!! <<==  !!

-------------------------------------------

Well-Then.......THÃ‰N "WHY/HOW"-about "looser" H-fields-fluxes-couplings some "lesser" than 100 %,
more "lesser" than 100 % , etc......if "beseen" as "air-cored"............
if "beseen" as "some" mu-r-materials ALSO appearing CLOSE to "air-cored"-Coils........
if "beseen" as "some" mu-r-materials placed "some" through the "NO-longer-air-cored" CoilsÂ´s
Inner-Areas.......etc....etc....!!

Such might perhaps at "easiest" be introductively emperically performed by "Manually-Moving" some mu-r-materials close to/through "Wide Diametres"-Coils/Coils-Systems.......
though of course also might be theorized about per complex Assumptions Calculations about
H-fields when having both mu-r-Materials and Coils.......!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If deadlines "allow"-for , THÃ‰N perhaps just a little Text some Day some Place in Some Internet-Forum about : The suggested Circumstances of Elder Electronics Vacuum Tubes Audio Sounds...!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day & Weekend and pleasant Winter ;
have Yourselves a Profitable New Year of Benefits from Your various many hardlabored Doings !

The Honourable Course of OU !

Have Yourselves Fruitfull Interesting Experimental & Theoretical Results !

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on January 05, 2009, 10:05:55 AM
Hey everyone...

I'm not sure why this thread is drying up like it is, this is a fascinating discovery.  Is there anyway this would work?  As you can see in this top-view picture, if you have a rotor (the 'cross' shaped object) and the stator (the ring of plate sections), would the rotor spin fairly freely because the magnets are never leaving the steel, thus no 'wanting to stick' to it effect?

http://nullium.fileave.com/ou.jpg
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TinselKoala on January 05, 2009, 06:14:49 PM
Where's the asymmetric "pull" in that picture, that would be required to make it turn, and keep turning?
It is clearly what we call a "non-starter".
:D

(But don't believe me, PROVE ME WRONG, I'm the Evil Skeptic, who single-handedly prevents Magnet Motors and Gravity Wheels and Buoyancy Drives from freeing the world from the Tyranny of Oil.  Just go ahead and buy some magnets, hire a machinist, build it yourself. Doesn't "quite" work yet? Well, maybe a few more magnets, or bigger, or shielding, or a strategically-placed electromagnet will get it going--just keep changing the design, buying more magnets and eventually you'll understand a subtle fact:
just why this thread, and so many others like it, have dried up: Magnetism is conservative, and so is gravity; you get out what you put in, minus losses.)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: hartiberlin on January 05, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Hey everyone...

I'm not sure why this thread is drying up like it is, this is a fascinating discovery.  Is there anyway this would work?  As you can see in this top-view picture, if you have a rotor (the 'cross' shaped object) and the stator (the ring of plate sections), would the rotor spin fairly freely because the magnets are never leaving the steel, thus no 'wanting to stick' to it effect?

http://nullium.fileave.com/ou.jpg

I guess in this configuration the forces would cancel each other out.

The iron cores really must repell each other and MOVE to do the work.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on January 05, 2009, 08:03:01 PM
I see what you are saying Stephan. If the areas where the flux are going through (the blue areas) are where the expanded plates are, could one attach some kind of drive thing on each set of plates to push the rotor (the x looking thing) around?

http://nullium.fileave.com/ou.jpg
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on January 05, 2009, 08:11:04 PM
Where's the asymmetric "pull" in that picture, that would be required to make it turn, and keep turning?
It is clearly what we call a "non-starter".
:D

(But don't believe me, PROVE ME WRONG, I'm the Evil Skeptic, who single-handedly prevents Magnet Motors and Gravity Wheels and Buoyancy Drives from freeing the world from the Tyranny of Oil.  Just go ahead and buy some magnets, hire a machinist, build it yourself. Doesn't "quite" work yet? Well, maybe a few more magnets, or bigger, or shielding, or a strategically-placed electromagnet will get it going--just keep changing the design, buying more magnets and eventually you'll understand a subtle fact:
just why this thread, and so many others like it, have dried up: Magnetism is conservative, and so is gravity; you get out what you put in, minus losses.)

Haha, I completely understand that gravity and magnetism are conservative, and it drives me crazy how if you try to get something to go in one area, energy is somehow conserved in another spot...  I found this out with Wankel designs, so I know what you're talking about...

The diagram is very bad, the mechanism that "pulls" (pushes in this design) is actually the ring-like STATOR structure in this:

http://nullium.fileave.com/ou.jpg

Each set of stacked plates in the blue area are going to push a rod up, and each set of plates set on a crankshaft or something are going to keep it going...  :P  (yeah right)  I was just wondering if since my experiments show that the magnets obviously want to stick to the steel plates when trying to pull the magnets away from them, if you could just always have the magnets in the same amount of steel plates around them, so this stick won't occur, allowing the magnet ROTOR (the cross thing) to spin freely...  God I need a good 3D diagram...  :P
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on January 06, 2009, 01:27:59 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles
of This The Honourable OVER-UNITY-Forum  !

And my especially meant : HELLO to the most recently
written REPLIES of the Honoured Profiles....from The
Blainiac ,
Tinselkoala

Might I kindly briefly and mostly meant as an in-passionate Science/Technics Words-Line

==>> The very "Definition" of :
==>>
==>> CONSERVATIVE  FORCE-FIELD
==>> suggested as a "Suitable Users Definition"  in Classical Mechanics is NOT.......NOT  !!.....
==>> ............
==>> reliably founded , though just "POSTULATED" ;
==>> in Elder Physics-Litteratures/Theses then the socalled Classical H-Magnetical-Field is
==>> "TERMED" as to be :
==>>  NON-Conservative in "Its Properties" .........
==>>  with formal Reference -->> to i.e.  CLOSED-PATHS-LOOP-INTEGRAL-"over"-
==>> [ H-force acting on a socalled H-Pole as moved in Close-Loops-Paths in a H-Force-Lines-
==>> Field.... ]...!!
==>> (most briefly explanatively written though.......for a little-more-complex)

---------------------------------------------------------

(And also as an in-passionate CO-notice : The Relativistical Theories "should" indeed make many
"Possible" Methods for OU , IF-THOUGH-ELSE THe Relativistical Theories "ARE" so "TRUE" and "once-for-all"-Proven .........though The Relativistical Theories are NOT so "reliable" nor "usable"..
instead of Founding Methods for OU and for SPACE-DRIVE , then ONLY "generate" LOTS of "PRIZES" and "Degrees"......!!)
----------------------------------------------------------

I have been most busy to fulfill my Science/Technics Results , so thus delayed :

In soon Time I will kindly "attach" a rough handmade Sketch about :
Classical H-fields-lines if in "Free Space" ......;
and if when located mu-r-objects are .......etc....etc....!!
-------------------------------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a pleasant Winter and
Y 2009 HAS TO BE THE YEAR OF PUBLIC-ANNOUNCING ABOUT OU-METHODS.....!!
ULTIMO MOMENTO.....!
For if NOT , THÃˆN ELSE several GenerationsÂ´s PersonsÂ´s Hardlabored Workings for researching
for OU  WILL BE LOST.......!!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TinselKoala on January 06, 2009, 04:49:21 PM
Hello, newton2!
I read all your posts very carefully, because I am of the opinion that you are one of the true brilliant jewels in this dark mineshaft of ideas. Sometimes it's a bit hard to decode what you are saying but it is always worthwhile to make the effort to understand you.
I agree--there are certain situations where the fields we normally consider to be "conservative" may, and I emphasize, MAY, be "tricked" in order to yield positive work from a closed integral. But the conditions necessary to work this trick are going to be difficult to achieve, and probably involve extremely high electric (or maybe magnetic or gravitic) scalar field strengths and steep vector gradients.
In the meanwhile, certain well-travelled paths in milder territories are known to lead to more-or-less costly dead ends, which is why it pays to attend to one's homework before hitting the drawing board.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on January 06, 2009, 05:22:19 PM
TK if you can't do it don't think it's impossible or even difficult.The solutions are simple when we see the answers. Myself I'm starting to lean less on the gravity wheel side. Sure it would be something to have a runner, but it will have to be rather big if you plan on energy production. This is why I'm leaning more heavily on electro magnetic systems. My true goal is to find and replicate what Tesla has found in his labs 100 years ago.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on January 13, 2009, 02:22:12 AM
Has anyone here heard from Butch lately?  Considering that he started this thread, his absence is getting noticeable.
It would be be nice to hear from him, even if just to say hello.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on January 13, 2009, 02:40:10 AM
Has anyone here heard from Butch lately?  Considering that he started this thread, his absence is getting noticeable.
It would be be nice to hear from him, even if just to say hello.

He said he was applying for a patent. I wished him well and that was the last I expected to hear from him.

Either he realized trying to make use of a supposed gradient was a mistake or he did discover something useful. Either way, I expected that would be the end.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: TinselKoala on January 13, 2009, 03:29:20 AM
TK if you can't do it don't think it's impossible or even difficult.The solutions are simple when we see the answers. Myself I'm starting to lean less on the gravity wheel side. Sure it would be something to have a runner, but it will have to be rather big if you plan on energy production. This is why I'm leaning more heavily on electro magnetic systems. My true goal is to find and replicate what Tesla has found in his labs 100 years ago.

I agree mostly. That's why I am always careful to say that just because I couldn't replicate or produce an effect, doesn't mean it isn't there. And that's also why I try to get people to specify their hypotheses very well--define constructs, make predictions that are testable, and so forth. If a well designed experiment to test a well-posed hypothesis gives a null result, over and over, then we can "take a hint" and move on. On the other hand, if the effect is produced, and can be shown to be a result of an "ordinary" that is conventional physical cause, that's also an important result. Systems that, out of the starting gate, must violate known physical laws and principles in order to function as planned, shouldn't be allowed to distract creative and energetic researchers by enticing them down garden paths that are well-travelled and lead nowhere.
Title: Re: From Butch, BEP, I'm still here making very big improvements on PMM
Post by: Butch LaFonte on January 13, 2009, 06:13:59 AM
He said he was applying for a patent. I wished him well and that was the last I expected to hear from him.

Either he realized trying to make use of a supposed gradient was a mistake or he did discover something useful. Either way, I expected that would be the end.
BEP,
There was room for huge improvement on the basic operating principle of the Perpendicular Magnetics Motor.
I made some discoveries during R&D and have been putting them through the paper mill.
You will really get a kick out of the new design.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on January 13, 2009, 12:54:54 PM
Ah!

There you are. Can't wait to see some details  :)
Title: Re:More than one magnetic code in Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: Butch LaFonte on January 16, 2009, 04:03:12 AM
Stefan likes to refer to Perpendicular Magnetics as "breaking the magnetic code". In our research we have found three magnetic codes related to Perpendicular Magnetics and we are researching a fourth.
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re:More than one magnetic code in Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: BEP on January 16, 2009, 01:13:28 PM
Stefan likes to refer to Perpendicular Magnetics as "breaking the magnetic code". In our research we have found three magnetic codes related to Perpendicular Magnetics and we are researching a fourth.
Butch LaFonte

Can't wait to see what you find. In my games with perpendicular induction (not the radiant type) I found properties that could be called 'inversions' of common properties. Three were fairly easy to see. The rest are still smoke and mirrors.
Look at magnetics as a point charge and some will probably make more sense.

Edit>>

I should probably say 'a dual point charge' or perhaps 'a dipole charge'. A heretic view, I know.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on January 16, 2009, 03:05:45 PM
Why do you guys call this perpendicular magnetics?  I would think perpendicular magnetics is when two field sources are interacting perpendicular to each other - your just sending the flux diametrically through washers - and only have a single source (or multiple sources acting as one).  Just curious.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: BEP on January 16, 2009, 11:04:38 PM
That term was coined by another. I just go with the flow. It does fit somewhat.

The actions attempted tend to be perpendicular to the poles.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: SoeN on January 18, 2009, 10:46:48 AM
Actually this kind of phenomena had been applied on material handling technolgy for sheets metal storage in 90's.

You can take mild steel washers (the kind that does not stay magnetized when magnet is removed) and place them on a vertical wood dowel. Now place a magnet on each side of the washers with the north pole of one facing the south pole of the other. Have a horse shoe shaped flat bar connecting the outer poles of each magnet so that you have a self made horse shoe magnet.
Now move the open air space between the inner poles so that the washers will be between the two faces of the magnets.
Notice that the washers separate from each other. This is because the magnetic path through each washer has the same orientation and they repel each other.
Now notice that the work needed to remove the horse shoe is equal when the washers are together and touching each other or when they are separated. This means that the work available from the separating of the washers is free because the washers separate at a 90 degree angle to the magnetic field or flux flow direction. After testing I posted a series of drawings years ago, but no one bothered to notice this.
Do not allow washers to separate to a point where they go beyond the width of the magnet. They must stay in the space between the pole faces of the two magnets.Remember the wood dowel is at 90 degrees vertical to the horse shoe when the horse shoe is laying flat on a table.
I have posted to my web page 7 drawings that include a new rotary version using this principle which makes use also of the conservation of angular momentum as part of it's operation. As you know when a mass is rotating in a circle and work is done to make the mass move toward the center axis of rotation the speed of the mass will attempt to increase and the work done on the mass shows up as an increase in the speed and kinetic energy of the rotating mass.
This is done in my design with out having to put additional work into the system.
This should open up a whole new field in overunity permanent magnet and/or electromagnet research and development.
See web page > http://lafonte.fdp.nu
Open folder B00 and look at drawings, Butch10, Butch8, Butch2a, Butch2, Butch11, 1-7-08 A and 1-7-08 D
Also see attached drawing

Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
The LaFonte Group
Birmingham, Alabama

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on January 18, 2009, 12:43:31 PM
Quote from: SoeN date=1232272008
Actually this kind of phenomena had been applied on material handling technolgy for sheets metal storage in 90's.

First of all Butch mentions this himself. And second of all...so what? Maybe you don't understand the point of an invention. He came up with a way to use it as a primemover in a motor or generator. That's a new invention. Even though Tesla invented the induction motor, the idea of magnetic induction wasn't his.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on January 18, 2009, 12:55:48 PM
First of all Butch mentions this himself. And second of all...so what? Maybe you don't understand the point of an invention. He came up with a way to use it as a primemover in a motor or generator. That's a new invention. Even though Tesla invented the induction motor, the idea of magnetic induction wasn't his.

Let's all hope Mr. LaFonte will find something new! Sincerely!

It's just that there is not exactly anything new in his findings... It seems..?

Mr. Butch claims are becoming an "urban legends" material. Check out the claims made by him (his group) in only the last 5 years....

Revolutionary, New, Free energy, just about to deliver, anytime now.....

Ah, well....

How many different concepts there really were?  >:(
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on January 18, 2009, 01:26:09 PM
If you're like a little lamb waiting to be fed then that's your problem. Even if he has made all those claims, what do you care? You should have your own goals and desires. Setup your own experiments and see what you learn out of it.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on January 18, 2009, 01:55:54 PM
If you're like a little lamb waiting to be fed then that's your problem. Even if he has made all those claims, what do you care? You should have your own goals and desires. Setup your own experiments and see what you learn out of it.
A lamb to be fed?  ;D  ;)
It seems you're a little fresh in this "OU business", eh??  Ah, nevermind...
You'll learn, sooner or later...

Broli, in the future, check out the facts before saying something... OK?

Mr. LaFonte is like a constant in a FE world. And, how many of his projects came to any kind of realisation (let's say during the last 5 years)? You tell me!?
Post by: Butch LaFonte on January 21, 2009, 07:50:41 PM
Let's all hope Mr. LaFonte will find something new! Sincerely!

It's just that there is not exactly anything new in his findings... It seems..?

Mr. Butch claims are becoming an "urban legends" material. Check out the claims made by him (his group) in only the last 5 years....

Revolutionary, New, Free energy, just about to deliver, anytime now.....

Ah, well....

How many different concepts there really were?  >:(
Shortly after the web came on line I started posting my designs and to date have over 2000 I have put out there for the public. Many have been built in Marks shop and my home for testing. Yes I have made claims that I should not have made till I had funds to complete the research and development of the designs. But I never got funding to do that (until recently). So I get excited when I get positive test results and make claims prematurely, well then just take me out back and shoot me. Tell me which is worse, putting out over 2000 designs for the public (that many have filed patents on) and building and testing many of them or someone who's total contribution is making negative comments on a list from time to time using a "screen name".
And to keep the tradition going, we are up loading to Youtube three new videos of a design that with first testing appears to show overunity.
I'll keep putting out designs and building and testing and you can make comments on the lists. I may get lucky and get a true overuntity device, but negative posting never built anything and never will. Anyone can type text for posting, but it's the people that design and build that produce working machines.
Yes, by the way, if you have noticed no one else to date has built an self sustaining overunity device. We are all just hoping, designing, building and trying to spend as little time as possible typing.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Title: Re: Reply from Butch LaFonte
Post by: Paul-R on January 22, 2009, 03:52:52 PM
...but negative posting never built anything and never will...
We should ask Stefan to get the "Report to moderator" button to do something useful,
and stop these time wasters wasting his data bandwidth as well.

Your record speaks for you, Butch.

Paul.
Title: Re: Reply from Butch LaFonte
Post by: spinner on January 24, 2009, 12:51:47 PM

We should ask Stefan to get the "Report to moderator" button to do something useful,
and stop these time wasters wasting his data bandwidth as well.

Your record speaks for you, Butch.

Paul.

Hey, Mr. LaFonte, sorry for my little critique.... I just wanted to remind you for all the past promisses You've made in the last few years....

Although you may produce "+2000" contributions, it's really just a question of  "quantity over quality"?    Hello??? Ding-dong? Wake up! OK?
Which of your projects shows something widely replicable, something which can be used for (_name it..._).... A single achievement to be mentioned? Yes or No!?? Out of "2000"? At least something like a can-opener? Surely, out of 2000?

I just said I was aware of your work (made public) in the last few years. Due to my skeptical nature, I managed to recognized just a few variations of the SAME concept(s)... Magnetics is funny....  ;D

@Paul-R
Lol. Your proposals are "extraordinary", (since the "Egyptian fulcrum" (the infamous Archer's)  thread).... You showed your understanding, LOL.... A simple lever is an OU device, hehe... Kill the Newtonians etc stuff.... Idiot.
(Precious! I just read your post in the Ltseungs thread, when you say that "TinselKoala has an intelligence of a pack of biscuits....") ;D
Looser!

(Whisper:)  If I were you, I would not questioned someone else's intelligence.... It can "backfire" at you, Oh, great Teacher!

You want a "report to moderator button"? So you can ban people just for their (fair!?) objections? Yes, majesty?
You have something to offer? Just say so...  >:(

Title: Re: Reply from Butch LaFonte
Post by: SoeN on January 25, 2009, 02:20:20 AM
OK guys it's enough, let's discusse another thread "Aromaz's Ignition Coil CFL" + "Dynamic Resonant Energy" AROMAS's projects in youtube, in my opinion he is heading to sort of ZPE, hunting for specific frequency to it.

Hey, Mr. LaFonte, sorry for my little critique.... I just wanted to remind you for all the past promisses You've made in the last few years....

Although you may produce "+2000" contributions, it's really just a question of  "quantity over quality"?    Hello??? Ding-dong? Wake up! OK?
Which of your projects shows something widely replicable, something which can be used for (_name it..._).... A single achievement to be mentioned? Yes or No!?? Out of "2000"? At least something like a can-opener? Surely, out of 2000?

I just said I was aware of your work (made public) in the last few years. Due to my skeptical nature, I managed to recognized just a few variations of the SAME concept(s)... Magnetics is funny....  ;D

@Paul-R
Lol. Your proposals are "extraordinary", (since the "Egyptian fulcrum" (the infamous Archer's)  thread).... You showed your understanding, LOL.... A simple lever is an OU device, hehe... Kill the Newtonians etc stuff.... Idiot.
(Precious! I just read your post in the Ltseungs thread, when you say that "TinselKoala has an intelligence of a pack of biscuits....") ;D
Looser!

(Whisper:)  If I were you, I would not questioned someone else's intelligence.... It can "backfire" at you, Oh, great Teacher!

You want a "report to moderator button"? So you can ban people just for their (fair!?) objections? Yes, majesty?
You have something to offer? Just say so...  >:(
Title: Re: Reply from Butch LaFonte
Post by: Butch LaFonte on January 25, 2009, 06:28:28 AM
SoeN,
I must admit, you do have a point there.
Butch Lafonte
Title: Re: Reply from Butch LaFonte
Post by: Mr. M on January 27, 2009, 04:16:20 PM
(Whisper:)  If I were you, I would not questioned someone else's intelligence.... It can "backfire" at you, Oh, great Teacher!

Yup! It can, it has and I've highlighted it for you.

You're also incapable of wielding the ellipsis, leave it alone... It's not for noobs. ;)
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spikey on February 12, 2009, 03:16:19 PM
Thanks for the info Butch, it's appreciated!

Do not allow a few greedy, selfish people, with backwards attitudes ruin your attempts to share your discoveries and research data.

ANYONE who applies for a patent in this field, especially given what we know about the state of our planet and the idiots who control it, and consequently us - is both asking for trouble (you can guess what i mean by that) and incredibly selfish and short sighted.

'Patented' alternative energy devices don't make it to maket - full stop.
Open source is different - look at all the info and resources surrounding HHO and GEET at the moment.

It's time to stop thinking in terms of 'How much money can i make out of this' and more of 'How much can we benefit from this as a species'.
Actually, the time for this kind of thinking was about 50 or 60 years ago, but better to be late than never to arrive at all eh?

Ignore the creeps and idiots who do you a disservice, and focus more on the people, such as myself who both value and respect your efforts in this area.

Bottom line is this If you sell or patent 'free energy technology', the world will never see, hear, or use it..If you open source the technology - the 'die hard' money lovers will still try to rip you off, BUT the ideas (which cannot to stopped) will be out there, in the world, amongst like minded people to collaborate on, which hopefully lead to real world applications and technologies for the betterment of all.

Keep on keeping on Butch, your doing a grand job.

Spikey.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 12, 2009, 07:11:43 PM
Thanks for the info Butch, it's appreciated!

Do not allow a few greedy, selfish people, with backwards attitudes ruin your attempts to share your discoveries and research data.

ANYONE who applies for a patent in this field, especially given what we know about the state of our planet and the idiots who control it, and consequently us - is both asking for trouble (you can guess what i mean by that) and incredibly selfish and short sighted.

'Patented' alternative energy devices don't make it to maket - full stop.
Open source is different - look at all the info and resources surrounding HHO and GEET at the moment.

It's time to stop thinking in terms of 'How much money can i make out of this' and more of 'How much can we benefit from this as a species'.
Actually, the time for this kind of thinking was about 50 or 60 years ago, but better to be late than never to arrive at all eh?

Ignore the creeps and idiots who do you a disservice, and focus more on the people, such as myself who both value and respect your efforts in this area.

Bottom line is this If you sell or patent 'free energy technology', the world will never see, hear, or use it..If you open source the technology - the 'die hard' money lovers will still try to rip you off, BUT the ideas (which cannot to stopped) will be out there, in the world, amongst like minded people to collaborate on, which hopefully lead to real world applications and technologies for the betterment of all.

Keep on keeping on Butch, your doing a grand job.

Spikey.
Spikey,
I don't mind the negative comments. The way I see it is there are two ways to go through life, as a spectator or in the arena. I knew when I chose the arena that there would be trash thrown at me. But that beats being a spectator any day.
Thanks for the support,
Butch

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on February 13, 2009, 01:11:44 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles and The Honoured Administrator of this the Honourable OU-Forum !
And my especial Hello to the 2 Honoured Profiles : Butch LaFonte , Spikey about Their very recent
Replies of this continued going on Topics-Ideas-Discussion !

##
The suggested Idea of the original Topic (P 1)  HAS to be  evaluated through-out !
Allthough the H-Magnetical "Force-Field/Force-Action" in Elder Magneto-Statics has been
stated as : NON-Conservative ,
THÃ‰N indeed it STILL is possible to "choose" surden Technical Layouts , inwhere the H-Magnetical "Force" might in total function somehow like "Conservative"....==>>
THÃ‰N nearly "nil" of OU  /"out-cancelling" OU !!

The suggested original TopicÂ´s Idea IS in Principle a possible OU-method to "gain" perhaps at "most" : 1-2 procents of OU when at "best" adjusted;
though the Idea INVOLVES a most delicate Technical Layout to should "adjust" per cut&try and similar emperically done layouts-alterings.......and also is MOST dependent on mu-r-materialsÂ´s H-magnetical-Properties......................
about the recent few explanative Sentences  to say :
if when ALL Functionings should be with Magneto-Statical-Mechanics Actions ,
if when NOT then to should involve Electro-Magnetical-Coils !
(By Magneto-Statics just meant somehow like Electro-Statics , though dynamical Mechanical Movements of course can be.....) !

The suggested Idea I self have evaluated about some Y-Decades ago , though that past Time ago then evaluated as related to quite otherwise evaluations about electromagnetical Coil acting to 2 pcs nearby-to-each-others placed/being mu-r-rods........
(my original evaluations though were about "some" else related to mu-r-rods interacting to exterior H-fields , to say : about some quite otherwise Circumstances of otherwise OU-Ideas than the suggested Idea in the Original Discussions-Topic)

##
Might I kindly hint about : the Classical MechanicsÂ´s  socalled "3-mutually-Forces-interacting-Bodies"-Problem , THOUGH if when as about H-Magnetical Objects........!!
, or THOUGH if when as Electro-Statical-Objects...........!!
FOR EVALUATIONS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SIGNS AND POLARITIES ALSO HAVE TO BE , etc , compared to the Original Classical 3-Bodies-MASSES (one Signs)-Problem ; INVOLVED Maths-Complexities and Types of Functions , etc !

##
THERE IS A SOCALLED NEARLY PENDANT PER ELECTRO-STATICS TO THE ORIGINAL TOPICÂ´s
SUGGESTED IDEA  (of : using 2 pcs mu-r-rods in an exterior H-field) !!

---------------------------------------

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and fruitfull Results of Your idealisical important OU-Researches !
My kind Thanks to the many OU-Researchers and Researchers else in Alternative Physics and similar important knowledges-improving Matters !

Might I kindly praise the Course of OU  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: spinner on February 13, 2009, 11:25:01 PM
Spikey,
I don't mind the negative comments. The way I see it is there are two ways to go through life, as a spectator or in the arena. I knew when I chose the arena that there would be trash thrown at me. But that beats being a spectator any day.
Thanks for the support,
Butch

Hi, Butch!
Yes, It seems to me that you're really enjoying the "arena", the atmosphere... But how about the performance, the quality?
The spot lights are doing no good to you.... After years of pompous claims, still nothing?

You can fool newbies anytime, but it's up to you to decide what you really want..
Sorry for my critique. I promise I'll not interfere with your posts again.
Good Luck!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on February 14, 2009, 01:52:18 PM
To The Honoured Anonymous Readers , to The Honoured Profiles and to The Honoured Administrator of This The Honourable OU-Forum :

Have All Yourselves  a  HAPPY  VALENTINES  DAY  !

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and Weekend  !

And STAY FIRM for THe Honourable Course of OU  , for OU  has to come for Common Uses  !
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: DallasGoldBug on February 16, 2009, 01:45:02 PM
Sorry if Im repeating someones post forgive me, I haven't viewed all the pages to the post.

But what people are forgetting about these magnet motors is the fact the Neo Magnets do not last very long when acted upon by other magnets.  You also have to remember the amount of energy that went into creating those magnets.  There is no such thing as perpetual motion, at least on this planet due to friction, gravity, and due to ALL things decay over time.  These inventions that use magnets must be looked at from a broader perspective and take into consideration the degradation of the magnet over time and during load.

Just my personal thoughts.
I'll go back under my rock.

DallasGoldBug
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: newton2 on February 16, 2009, 02:16:26 PM
Hello Honoured Profiles and the Honoured Administrator of This The Honourable OU-Forum !
And my especial Hello and Thanks to The Honoured ProfileÂ´s :  DallasGoldE  recent strict Reply as evaluating to circumstances of i.e. Manufacturing-Energy-Expenses of Permanent Magnetes.....etc !

YES......to would attempt to construct surden Mechanically performing OU-"Self-Runners" per
Theses of Elder Magneto-Statics are a "TOUGH" Problem to should "handle"/these/experiment about

Somehow a socalled All-Mechanical "Self-Runner"-OU per Classical MechanicsÂ´s "Force/Masses"-movements thesed Maths-Relations
is some "easier" to should attempt to "construct".....than by "using" surden H-magnetical-Parts.........!!

WKR & have Yourselves a nice Day and a profitable Y 2009 , in-during the OU per a Common-Uses-Layout has to be announced..........
thanks about Your All idealistical Participations to    THE HONOURABLE  COURSE  OF  OU  !!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 16, 2009, 02:47:04 PM
Quote
But what people are forgetting about these magnet motors is the fact the Neo Magnets do not last very long when acted upon by other magnets.

This is an untrue statement.  Neodymium magnets last a very long time as long as they are exposed to a flux equal to or lower than their own.  These magnets portray a very strong coercive force that makes demagnetization more difficult.  However, all magnets may be degaussed over time due to thermal noise and of course if placed in regions of fields higher than their own.  On that note however, how many B fields are you going to find that are higher than 1.5 Tesla?  Haha not many!  Extreme vibrations may also damage their field intensity (this is mainly because it increases thermal noise of their environment).
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 16, 2009, 03:21:35 PM
DallasGoldBug, DC motors use permanent magnets to spin. Now these magnets are constantly counteracted by the spinning loops of wires who create opposite poles. So how come is it that 50 year old dc motors still run fine and dandy as long as the bearings are intact. Your point is completely useless and it's obvious you're not looking to contribute to this community, so why exactly are you here? Maybe to spread your disinfo crap, hmmmm?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: DallasGoldBug on February 16, 2009, 03:45:12 PM
Do your homework on who your talking to before you look foolish.

As for magnet motors are one thing, you are powering them with ELECTRICITY.  Overunity claims via magnet powered devices are yet to be confirmed.

DallasGoldBug

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Paul-R on February 16, 2009, 04:34:47 PM
Do your homework on who your talking to before you look foolish.
Overunity claims via magnet powered devices are yet to be confirmed.
DallasGoldBug
Build a Bedini SG, DallasGoldBug, if you can face proving yourself wrong.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 16, 2009, 04:40:03 PM
Quote
As for magnet motors are one thing, you are powering them with ELECTRICITY.  Overunity claims via magnet powered devices are yet to be confirmed.

That is a mostly true statement.  The coils energized in a motor produce a magnetic field that opposes and attracts the field windings (which in some cases ARE permanent magnets).  The reason these do not demagnetize is that the field produced from the coil is not stronger than the PM.  HOWEVER, there are instances of over driven motors where the flux of the coil exceeds the magnet and does cause degaussing - along with other really bad things, this usually is uncommon.

I agree with the second statement, a fully magnet powered device has yet to be confirmed - but I wouldn't rule anything out.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 16, 2009, 05:24:50 PM
His statement is useless as the fully magnetic motor could also rely on attraction and never have magnets repel. Like I said before...what exactly are you doing on this forum? If you like to act educated go to physicsforum.org, You'll love how fast they close a thread about free energy and how you and them think soooo much a like. On this forum there's no place for your kind of arrogance.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: shimondoodkin on February 16, 2009, 09:15:42 PM
how to do something with that?
its like a method with no practical idea how to build a device.

has anybody tested this idea statically with electrical magnets?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Honk on February 19, 2009, 01:06:15 PM
HOWEVER, there are instances of over driven motors where the flux of the coil exceeds the magnet and does cause degaussing

This is only true when it comes to ceramic motor magnets. They are easily demagnetized compared to NdFeb:s.
A motor using NdFeb will not become damaged from any overdriven motor coils as long as the cooling is efficient enough.
Only excesive heat will damage a NdFeb magnet in an electrical motor environment.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 19, 2009, 04:14:54 PM
Quote
This is only true when it comes to ceramic motor magnets. They are easily demagnetized compared to NdFeb:s.
A motor using NdFeb will not become damaged from any overdriven motor coils as long as the cooling is efficient enough.
Only excesive heat will damage a NdFeb magnet in an electrical motor environment.

That makes sense.  Heat (and maybe extreme continuous vibrations) seem to be their only down fall!
Title: No one noticed this!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 19, 2009, 08:13:35 PM
Look at the attached drawing and the "bars added" video on our Youtube site and the rest is elementary.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 20, 2009, 04:26:04 PM
I'm not sure I see the significance in the video.  If the washers move out of the field, how do you move them back?  Also, how do you push the washers together once you've let them spread out, it looks like pushing them together would be hard.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 20, 2009, 08:18:01 PM
Also, how do you push the washers together once you've let them spread out, it looks like pushing them together would be hard.
Charlie,
When the elements are flush as in the # 2 illustration, there is no repulsion and they can be moved back together with no work to speak of.
This is just an illustration of the principle, not a practical machine.
Butch
Title: Sequence of operation
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 22, 2009, 07:43:07 PM
See attached,
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 22, 2009, 08:22:38 PM
Your pictures are a bit misleading. I thought the washers were shrinking but when I wanted to animated it I noticed the magnets where coming in closer. Below is an animated gif. In the future you should consider making an animated picture.  Btw it's a clever idea.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 23, 2009, 01:26:32 AM
Your pictures are a bit misleading. I thought the washers were shrinking but when I wanted to animated it I noticed the magnets where coming in closer. Below is an animated gif. In the future you should consider making an animated picture.  Btw it's a clever idea.
Broli,
Thanks so much for the animation! We have a group member who does 3D animations, but I have been giving him a rest. He has done many thousands of dollars worth of animations for us for free when he was also attending college full time.
Thanks again,
Butch
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 23, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Your pictures are a bit misleading. I thought the washers were shrinking but when I wanted to animated it I noticed the magnets where coming in closer. Below is an animated gif. In the future you should consider making an animated picture.  Btw it's a clever idea.
Broli,
Any way you could put step # 5 in the animation?
Thats where most of the work is done.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 23, 2009, 03:12:54 PM
Pulling the magnets away from the washers is not going to be easy.  You'll have to exert a large force to do so.  I would imagine this force is greater than the force that pushes the washers away.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 23, 2009, 05:43:42 PM
Pulling the magnets away from the washers is not going to be easy.  You'll have to exert a large force to do so.  I would imagine this force is greater than the force that pushes the washers away.
Charlie,
You forgot about the positive work done by the magnets when they were pulled to the washers in the first step. That positive work will cancel the negative work of having to pull the magnets off. Also look at the test video on Youtube, it shows the work to pull off during the time the washers are grouped together is substantially less than when they are spread apart. The total energy balance in this sequence is substantially positive.
Note: The washers in this sequence just shown are square.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: petersone on February 23, 2009, 06:27:04 PM
Hi Butch
The net result looks,on the face of it,to be positive,good luck to you ether way,you are not afraid to put your head on the block,imho it's the way to be,I wish I was,I have 1 or 2 ideas,but I have't the balls to come out with it,like you.
peter
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 23, 2009, 06:31:40 PM
Broli,
Any way you could put step # 5 in the animation?
Thats where most of the work is done.
Thanks,
Butch

Step #5 is the same as step #1 butch  :P.

Pulling the magnets away from the washers is not going to be easy.  You'll have to exert a large force to do so.  I would imagine this force is greater than the force that pushes the washers away.

Just like butch said when you close in they will pull on you so that's energy gain. You'll just have to give that energy back when you spread the magnets back open. On the other hand you can use a clever trick to not feel any push/pull by doing the below thing. Basically you have a set of magnets that always repel each other attached to this main apparatus. I was thinking of ways how to store the energy effectively when the poles come to each other. Springs wouldn't work nicely as their forces are linear with distance. I need something that had a 1/distance relationship. Then it struck that one could just use magnets in repulsion. That way the attraction from the main apparatus will get canceled by the repulsion of magnets attached to it. Same poled electrical charge could also be used if you worry about demagnetization.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 23, 2009, 07:06:21 PM
Hi Butch
The net result looks,on the face of it,to be positive,good luck to you ether way,you are not afraid to put your head on the block,imho it's the way to be,I wish I was,I have 1 or 2 ideas,but I have't the balls to come out with it,like you.
peter
Peter,
Go ahead and put your ideas out there. Helen Keller once wrote, "There is no safe place in this life."
Regards,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AhuraMazda on February 23, 2009, 07:16:22 PM
@charlie
You want to look at this video:
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on February 23, 2009, 10:36:08 PM
Step #5 is the same as step #1 butch  :P.

Just like butch said when you close in they will pull on you so that's energy gain. You'll just have to give that energy back when you spread the magnets back open. On the other hand you can use a clever trick to not feel any push/pull by doing the below thing. Basically you have a set of magnets that always repel each other attached to this main apparatus. I was thinking of ways how to store the energy effectively when the poles come to each other. Springs wouldn't work nicely as their forces are linear with distance. I need something that had a 1/distance relationship. Then it struck that one could just use magnets in repulsion. That way the attraction from the main apparatus will get canceled by the repulsion of magnets attached to it. Same poled electrical charge could also be used if you worry about demagnetization.
Broli,
See this link for Balance Fixture video from 10 years ago. It's an oldie but goodie.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 23, 2009, 10:57:20 PM
Yeah that's pretty much the whole idea. Good to see you have all the knowledge packed, I was still in elementary school back then  :P. In your video it seems like attraction wins for very close distances that's why it sticks but repulsions wins for large distances. You'll indeed need a very subtle shaped magnet to overcome these two behaviors.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on February 24, 2009, 12:33:39 AM
Butch I have a rotor design in mind that uses the balance experiment you did on youtube. Although it does not use the fanner repulsion but can be incorporated. But I just wanted to keep it as simple and effective as possible. Sure you can convince a lot of people that step by step there's a net energy gain, but everyone wants to see a self resetting runner in the end  ;D.

The design I have is 3d in nature so I'm going to give sketchup a go and try to make a rendition of it.

Edit: Design is attached below. I have to admit that it has many unfinished parts as I got too lazy  ;). Even the spacing of the guiding hoops is not correct. But this is the main idea. First of all from that view it's supposed to rotate CW. Now as the spaced out washers come from below the magnet they get attracted by a big force as proven on your balance experiment. The distance between the hoops should remain constant until the moment the washers arrive at the middle of the magnet. At this point the distance between the hoops will start to shrink very rapidly thus bringing the washers together. But the magnet will still want to keep them in the field. But as you've experimentally proven the force is weaker than they were spaced out and thus the washers manage to escape. While coming back the hoop distance expands again and pulls them apart and the process restarts.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on February 25, 2009, 03:19:46 PM
@broli

Thats a good idea.  I like your idea of balancing the pull force with opposing magnets, I think that could work!
Title: Verified second operating principle, no repulsion between elements!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 06, 2009, 11:25:34 PM
I have verified the second principle of operation for the Perpendicular Magnetics Motor.
When the moving square elements are in contact or near contact (.003") with the upper bars, the repulsion between the moving elements is reduced to near zero and actually becomes an attraction force between the elements when the elements are in side to side contact. When the upper and lower bars are moved apart, the elements go into repulsion. Also, the upper and lower bars move apart with less work when the moving elements are together as compared to when they are repelled and separated as illustrated in our past video. This opens up the basic system for overunity design only limited by ones imagination. I will make a video later tonight when I have someone to help as it takes two to make the video.
See attached pictures. I can not express the importance of this technology.
Butch LaFonte
.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 06, 2009, 11:54:56 PM
Butch I was already convinced a page ago but where does this put us now. The same problem always arises. There's always a lack of physically, verbal or financially help. I've seen and experienced this myself. It made me question the whole free energy community. Why are people trying to dig so far in history when overunity/free energy designs are right under their noses, all they have to do is contribute their share and it'll get done.

I will try to come up with a self sustaining design. BUT It should be made clear that there are two separate overunity cases you have shown so far. The free energy you get from individual washer repulsion. And the free energy you get from leaving the field when the washers are stuck together. I thought the latter was the stronger one and that's why the previous design I posted was based on that phenomenon. But I will try to come up with a simpler,better and maybe cheap to build solution.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 07, 2009, 02:14:28 AM
Butch I have a rotor design in mind that uses the balance experiment you did on youtube. Although it does not use the fanner repulsion but can be incorporated. But I just wanted to keep it as simple and effective as possible. Sure you can convince a lot of people that step by step there's a net energy gain, but everyone wants to see a self resetting runner in the end  ;D.

The design I have is 3d in nature so I'm going to give sketchup a go and try to make a rendition of it.

Edit: Design is attached below. I have to admit that it has many unfinished parts as I got too lazy  ;). Even the spacing of the guiding hoops is not correct. But this is the main idea. First of all from that view it's supposed to rotate CW. Now as the spaced out washers come from below the magnet they get attracted by a big force as proven on your balance experiment. The distance between the hoops should remain constant until the moment the washers arrive at the middle of the magnet. At this point the distance between the hoops will start to shrink very rapidly thus bringing the washers together. But the magnet will still want to keep them in the field. But as you've experimentally proven the force is weaker than they were spaced out and thus the washers manage to escape. While coming back the hoop distance expands again and pulls them apart and the process restarts.
Broli,
The washers in this layout need to be recompressed against a repulsion force and the net energy gain will be zero or a negative.
The repulsion force between the washers needs to be eliminated during the recompression of the washers, but present during the expansion for the system to be overunity.
See my post dated today, 3-6-09
Regards,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 07, 2009, 02:28:42 AM
Butch I was already convinced a page ago but where does this put us now. The same problem always arises. There's always a lack of physically, verbal or financially help. I've seen and experienced this myself. It made me question the whole free energy community. Why are people trying to dig so far in history when overunity/free energy designs are right under their noses, all they have to do is contribute their share and it'll get done.

I will try to come up with a self sustaining design. BUT It should be made clear that there are two separate overunity cases you have shown so far. The free energy you get from individual washer repulsion. And the free energy you get from leaving the field when the washers are stuck together. I thought the latter was the stronger one and that's why the previous design I posted was based on that phenomenon. But I will try to come up with a simpler,better and maybe cheap to build solution.
Broli,
I don't know why more people don't build replications. I wonder if it has something to do with it not being their idea? Thank god for the people that do build though.
Also I believe many people are building in secret hoping to get a jump on the technology. Is this a great country or what?
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: AhuraMazda on March 07, 2009, 02:43:01 AM
Butch, Broli
I just uploaded a file that you may bothe find interesting.
In it I discovered you could use "closed coil of bare or insulated (copper) wire" instead of steel washers.
This gives you other possibilities to think about!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item249
Title: Will complete video tomorrow
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 08, 2009, 02:33:13 AM
I will complete the video tomorrow, today my wife has me painting the living room and dining room.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Will complete video tomorrow
Post by: broli on March 08, 2009, 02:54:18 AM
I will complete the video tomorrow, today my wife has me painting the living room and dining room.
Thanks,
Butch

Haha women. Trying to change the world but the wife is not happy with the wall color.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on March 08, 2009, 06:57:05 AM
@AhuraMazda

I tried to view your posted file, it says the pdf is corrupted.  Do you mind reposting or linking in another way?

Thanks,
Charlie
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on March 08, 2009, 07:16:15 AM
@AhuraMazda
Well, I went and found the article somewhere else.  It describes an early form of induction motor, what's so special about this?
Title: Finally, high torque overunity design, LaFonte Perpendicular Magnetics Motor
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 11, 2009, 06:54:32 PM
I have attached a drawing of the basic operating principle of the LaFonte Group Perpendicular Magnetics Motor Phase 3.
I have decided to make the video showing this basic principle instead of the Phase 2 design that has very low torque.
I will make drawing today of rotary design that could produce huge torque if multiple magnets were spaced around the rotor disk.
I will ask group member Nicolas to also make 3D animation and put on our networking web site. Video coming in a few hours.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 11, 2009, 07:26:00 PM
Now that you have switched to using the magnets inside of the iron I believe you have something that may work!
I have done some testing on this design and it does show promise.

I started testing on this about 2 months ago when I found a similar design made by Pavel Imris a few years back.
There was no information whether the device in the patent was actually a working device.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 11, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
lumen,
Your going to love the rotary design, it is so obvious that is is overunity and high torque. The operational sequence is very unique.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 11, 2009, 07:59:06 PM
This is going to be interesting  ;D.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 11, 2009, 08:05:08 PM
Butch,

I was just about to build something to test the operational principal of a device using this concept. I have a CNC mill in my shed with a table travel of 20" x 40".
I have built a lot of different test projects to verify operating principals and this one shows that to move two magnets into the steel uses the same force whether apart or together. That is why I believe this concept shows promise. There is however the domain flipping problem in the steel that will absorb some energy and in fact may actually end up being exactly the same as anything gained.

But then that's why it needs testing!

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: petersone on March 11, 2009, 08:23:49 PM
Hi Butch
Bring the video on,I can't have my dinner until I see it!!
peter
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 11, 2009, 08:24:44 PM
Lumen,
I feel this is what everyone has been looking for.
Making drawing now on our layout. I can't believe this is not drawing more attention from the overunity community, but this is not uncommon when you look back through history. Alot of it is just petty emotions.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: ramset on March 11, 2009, 08:39:59 PM
Mr LaFonte

Maybe a headliner on the top of the Forum soon?

You are one special Man [wish I lived closer, I would come and paint your house]

Chet
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 11, 2009, 09:56:52 PM
Butch,

This is a simple toggle arm setup I was planning to build to test a similar principal.
If there is any energy gain it should cause the arm to continue to rock as the magnet outside the steel moves to the outside and pulls the other ends magnet (the one now in the steel) closer to the center.

I may wait now to see your results.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 11, 2009, 10:02:53 PM
so where is the video? still waiting...Butch
Title: Rotary version LaFonte Group, Permanent Magnent Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 11, 2009, 10:36:21 PM
The operational sequence is,
1. Rotor magnets are drawn to flux redirecting side plates.
2. When both magnets line up in near maximun repulsion position, side plates move out.
3. Magnets are now in full repulsion mode and torque is created on rotors.
4. As magnets clear side plates the side plates move back in for next power cycle.
This is just one of very many rotary configurations that can use this basic principle.
See attached, 3D animation coming.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 11, 2009, 11:28:59 PM
This is a good design. What pushes the plates in and out. Something like a cam? Btw you can use the same principal of repulsing magnets to pull the plates effortlessly. I have an idea on how to do it in this design. Because unlike the other one, the magnets here leave the plates and thus when you reset the plates you need to put energy if you use repelling magnets. But I'll try to make a sketchup model.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 11, 2009, 11:34:16 PM
Butch,

It may be better to design it so the steel does not need to be pulled from the magnets.
1: Magnets under heavy repulsion will pull harder to the steel.
2: Magnets under heavy attraction will pull less to steel.
3: Steel only distorts the field shape,it does not weaken the field.

The design would work the same even if you only covered one magnet with steel.
Then it would look like a shield and all the testing I have done on the shield theory follows the rules above.

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 11, 2009, 11:50:13 PM
Butch,

It may be better to design it so the steel does not need to be pulled from the magnets.
1: Magnets under heavy repulsion will pull harder to the steel.
2: Magnets under heavy attraction will pull less to steel.
3: Steel only distorts the field shape,it does not weaken the field.

The design would work the same even if you only covered one magnet with steel.
Then it would look like a shield and all the testing I have done on the shield theory follows the rules above.

Hmm you made me wonder about something. It might have been tried to no avail.

Edit: Oke model is attached. I realized it kind of looks like the Perendev motor now. Instead of have the plates move up and down, you shield half the magnet. When they aproach each other shielded it would be like the plated idea. But once they cross each other they sense each other better and push each other away.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 12, 2009, 12:31:02 AM
Actually I was thinking where both disks spin the same direction only the outside spins 1/2 the speed and has 4 magnets and is geared to the inner that spins twice as fast.
Then as the slower magnet enters the steel, later the faster magnet enters the steel but then the both leave the steel at the same time to leverage against each other and generate power.

But, the problem still exists where the high repulsion will cause the magnets to attract back to the steel harder.
On the toggle arm device picture I posted, the compressed magnets leave the steel at the same time the other two are entering but the seperated two entering have a mechanical advantage because they are further out on the radius.

In any case it appears we don't need to think of any of this any more because someone already has it!
Yes! Look at freeenenegynews.com PESWiki and see the new wind turbine that needs NO WIND!

We can only hope?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: rlortie on March 12, 2009, 07:37:03 AM
Quote
In any case it appears we don't need to think of any of this any more because someone already has it!
Yes! Look at freeenenegynews.com PESWiki and see the new wind turbine that needs NO WIND!

The hunt for perpetual motion is chasing perpetual  motion, and here we go from a grazed pasture off into un-grazed greener pastures.

As of this date there is nothing in Google or is there any posts in the Boswell Yahoo forum!  I for one have yet to find anything other than a possible hoax.

It just so happens that I still have a stock of vacuum packed post holes available, would you like to buy some so you can set up your windless wind turbine?  ::)

Believe me you are better off reseeding this field, at least you have an idea of what you are working with.

Ralph
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: lumen on March 12, 2009, 03:42:25 PM
Yes, it almost sounds more like a scam to get someones name around so they could get elected Mayor or something.
Oh..... Wait, I think I just read that somewhere or seen a video or something!

I did some searching and could not turn up anything on those wind turbines.
But I keep thinking about STEORN saying they noticed an anomaly in a wind turbine they bought that led then to their discovery. Related?

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 13, 2009, 05:54:36 PM
Mr LaFonte

Maybe a headliner on the top of the Forum soon?

You are one special Man [wish I lived closer, I would come and paint your house]

Chet
Chet,
Someone from our network is doing field simulations. We will know a lot more then.
Next we will build working proof of concept.
So your not close to Alabama?
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 13, 2009, 05:58:08 PM
Hmm you made me wonder about something. It might have been tried to no avail.

Edit: Oke model is attached. I realized it kind of looks like the Perendev motor now. Instead of have the plates move up and down, you shield half the magnet. When they aproach each other shielded it would be like the plated idea. But once they cross each other they sense each other better and push each other away.
Broli,
Any way you could contact me direct at LaFonteGroup@charter.net
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Video, sorry it took so long, been very busy
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 14, 2009, 04:30:26 AM
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Reciprocating Perpendicular Magnetics Design
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 15, 2009, 10:41:28 PM
See attached drawing, animation in the works.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 16, 2009, 01:45:15 AM
Butch, you need to add a "dud" to this design. Let's say after the primary magnets left the plates some other magnet(s) enters the plates. This magnet will serve as a way to barely use any energy in returning the plates. If you plan on using the same system we discussed here...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5064.msg159469#msg159469

I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 16, 2009, 02:07:23 AM
Broli,
Do you mean a balance or cancellation system? I was thinking most people would know that it was a obvious it would have one, but now that you mention it, many people are not aware it exists even though it's been around for 15 years at least. Yes it needs to be incorporated I agree.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 16, 2009, 01:47:03 PM
Atached is an animation butch.
Title: LaFonte Group, Rotary Pseudo Continuous Perpendicular Magnetics Motor
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 17, 2009, 04:58:16 AM
The Solenoid/Generator units act as a solenoid to move the side plates out and as generators when the plates are pulled in.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: mscoffman on March 17, 2009, 04:41:26 PM

Interesting! It might be nice to have some ferro-fluid lubricant handy when bringing
one of these things up. It could make the magnetic contact points more linear
from a pressure standpoint.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Rotary system with balance system incorporated, 3 technologies in one
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 17, 2009, 05:21:37 PM
Here are three systems I developed over the years incorporated into one unique system. Magnetic Force Balance System, Pseudo Solid Technology, Perpendicular Magnetics.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: broli on March 17, 2009, 05:23:49 PM
Yep that is about right  ;D. The time has come to materialize it now. It doesn't seem be that difficult to build.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: SomedayIsle on March 17, 2009, 10:08:50 PM

I am in full agreement with Broli here....

Quote
The time has come to materialize it now

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Xaverius on March 18, 2009, 02:32:18 AM
Yep that is about right  ;D. The time has come to materialize it now. It doesn't seem be that difficult to build.
I agree, looks like a turning point has been reached.
Title: 3D animation from Broli of operational principle
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 18, 2009, 09:14:01 PM
Here is a 3D animation of the principle with the side plates and top plate made in a full circle. Thanks to Broli for the animation and the full circle idea.
Butch
Title: All aspects verified, videos, Ring Force Cancellation Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 18, 2009, 11:10:25 PM
Listed below are links to videos that show testing of the 3 aspects that should allow the LaFonte Group, Ring Force Cancellation Perpendicular Magnetics Motor to operate in an overunity mode.
Title: Re: All aspects verified, videos, Ring Force Cancellation Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: devrimogun on March 20, 2009, 09:26:00 PM
Listed below are links to videos that show testing of the 3 aspects that should allow the LaFonte Group, Ring Force Cancellation Perpendicular Magnetics Motor to operate in an overunity mode.

Mr. LaFonte,

I know that in order to get recognition from the OU community you need to demonstrate OU beyond
doubt and that is (probably) why you are giving all your attention to a design that uses PM's which is
a no mans land as in all history noone was able to conquer. (I know some of the high ranked members
will jump on me for saying that and throw some names on me. My response is : Hey, what is running

I read the thread from the beginning and I am stuck in the first movies you made
and refferred to on page 2 (I think). (Names are 1-10-99.avi, 1-7-08.avi etc.)
You animated some designs using coils.

If the forces you talk about exist (I think you mentioned 300 pounds using 7 blocks of 4X4X3''steel)
why don't you try to make a very efficient motor using coils first? (Even if its not OU or can't prove that its
OU)

Burning a few watts of electric sure beats burning gallons of gas.

Piece,

Devrim

Title: Re: All aspects verified, videos, Ring Force Cancellation Perpendicular Magnetics
Post by: devrimogun on March 23, 2009, 02:22:11 PM
Where is everyone?
Are you all busy replicating the Mylow (Newman) motor?
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on March 23, 2009, 04:53:14 PM
@devrimogun:

I have no idea, but I think I might have a solution for Yucca's design.  It is almost exactly like his, but there is a ring (or rings) of steel that completes the rest of the circle where the piston isn't.  This way, there is equal attraction between the angles where the ring is and where the piston part is, causing the magnet to glide by and easily skipping past.  The only thing I see wrong with this is that the added area of steel perpendicular to the magnets may cause Lenz law to be more present, keeping the gliding effect at a minimum...

Attached is a picture:

Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on March 23, 2009, 08:33:08 PM
I like the creative approach of this ring design. No doubt it will take very creative methods to tap into new sources of energy, as all the obvious means have been tried already. I have built some test rigs with separated rectangles of transformer lamination steel, similar to your piston.  I have found the rotational forces (through a magnetic field) vary considerably, depending on the degree of compression on the "piston".  You may have more luck with your ring design, especially if the ring also changes, to match the change in piston geometry.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on March 23, 2009, 08:43:39 PM
@Derricka:

Thanks, and I know what you mean about obvious means being tried...  I didn't know about the rotation varying with the spread of the 'piston', and I understand what you mean about changing the ring with the changes in the piston.  I am just hoping that having the magnets pulled to a constant presence of steel, instead of wanting to pull towards a group of plates and not wanting to slip by, will eliminate the effects.  I think there were some linear magnet tests to confirm this, but I'm not sure...  Do you have any pictures or video of your design?  I'm always intrigued by others designs!

Blain
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on March 24, 2009, 07:44:02 AM
Hi Blainiac,

I disassembled my original "plate" setup months ago, in order to do other experiments, but I still had the transformer laminations (on two carbon fiber rods), and the rotor.
Originally, I had two magnet horsehoes mounted to the rotor, and the laminations were fixed onto the support at the back of the base. I took a photo of the remaining items for you.
The rotor is a 17cm diameter Acrylic disc mounted onto a hard drive bearing.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Blainiac on March 24, 2009, 08:10:26 AM
Awesome work Derricka!  I think I may use similar materials when I build my project.  When you were running tests, you mentioned how at different compression states the rotor would have altered force acting upon the rotation?  I think Mr. La Fonte taped a similar phenomenon, and something with the airgap between the plates to change the rotation...

I'm not sure.  If it was part of your testing, was it more difficult for the rotor to pass when they were compressed or expanded?  Did you try differing numbers of plates stacked?  What happened when you let the rotor go?  Did it make many revolutions, if any?

I'm going to invest in a similar setup and see where it goes!  Sorry for bugging you as well!   ;)  Thanks for posting the picture and some specifications!
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: derricka on March 24, 2009, 09:09:46 AM
When separated, the plates experience noticeably more force towards the gap between the magnet poles, and it takes noticeably more force for them to leave separated.  I tried using the rotational energy of the rotor to collapse the plates (with a cam) before exit, but the forces canceled out enough, that I didn't see any gain from this setup. With a spring pushing plates together, spinning the rotor became very noisy, the plates slammed apart entering the magnetic field, making a "Chak Chak Chak" kind of sound. A fast spin with the hand gave it only about 10-15 revolutions.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 24, 2009, 04:33:12 PM
When separated, the plates experience noticeably more force towards the gap between the magnet poles, and it takes noticeably more force for them to leave separated.  I tried using the rotational energy of the rotor to collapse the plates (with a cam) before exit, but the forces canceled out enough, that I didn't see any gain from this setup. With a spring pushing plates together, spinning the rotor became very noisy, the plates slammed apart entering the magnetic field, making a "Chak Chak Chak" kind of sound. A fast spin with the hand gave it only about 10-15 revolutions.

Derricka,
Have you noticed that when you close the air gap between the plates and the magnet poles to a point where they are in near contact that there is no force required to bring the plates back together?
Butch
Title: New animation, LaFonte Rotary Moving Ring Perpendicular Magnetics Motor
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 24, 2009, 09:36:15 PM
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: mr_bojangles on March 25, 2009, 09:52:48 AM
this is the first time ive checked out this thread and now im really curious to see if anyone has actually tried building one

no magnets or washers in my dorm for myself...a shame

until next time
Title: You will really like this one
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 25, 2009, 04:44:02 PM
I ran a test in my office last night almost tearing the office up in the process, but I had interesting results and I have an animation coming that you will really be interested in I feel.
The tests showed that the two magnets in close hard repulsion are stronger in attracting a ferro-magnetic plate than when they are spaced apart from each other.
I did some thinking and I will post the animation as soon as Roger can complete it.
You will really like this.
Butch LaFonte
Title: New LaFonte Group Variable Ring Gap Rotary Magnet Motor, 3D animation
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 25, 2009, 08:08:40 PM
I did away with the repulsion element of the old design and made a new entity that is all attraction and super simple in it's operation. It uses a version of our Pseudo Solid technology as well as our Magnetic Force Cancellation technology and Multi-fieldpath technology that allows it to create extremely high torque. As many as 16 or more NIB rotor magnets can be utilized on the rotor.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: brian334 on March 25, 2009, 11:03:01 PM
How did you do the 3 D animation?
Title: Re: Brian
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 28, 2009, 02:25:21 AM
Brian,
Our group animator Roger did it, I don't know what program he used, I will ask.
Butch
Title: All segments test successful, new enity posted in magnet motors
Post by: Butch LaFonte on March 28, 2009, 02:29:25 AM
Please see new thread under magnet motors on this list titled, Balanced Rings Rotary Magnet Motor
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on May 30, 2009, 06:13:12 AM
Hello, I realize this thread has been abandoned.  However I have some questions dealing with the original setup.

Does the original setup have the same reluctance with the washers closed verses when they are open?  This answer would save me a lot of time if anyone can answer that.  This was claimed to be the case in the beginning of the thread but I couldn't find where anyone verified this "fact".

If you close the washers, does it take the same force to remove the magnet as when the washers are open - assuming you do not let the magnet touch the washers (in which case it should be harder to remove since the fanning washers will distribute the force over a larger area).

Plain and simple question, does the first drawing in the beginning of this thread work the way it says it works?  If it does not, then why.  If it does then please someone must have verified this.  It will save me alot of time having to go back and retrace people's steps.

Thanks,
Charlie
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on May 30, 2009, 06:47:42 AM
Hello, I realize this thread has been abandoned.  However I have some questions dealing with the original setup.

Does the original setup have the same reluctance with the washers closed verses when they are open?  This answer would save me a lot of time if anyone can answer that.  This was claimed to be the case in the beginning of the thread but I couldn't find where anyone verified this "fact".

If you close the washers, does it take the same force to remove the magnet as when the washers are open - assuming you do not let the magnet touch the washers (in which case it should be harder to remove since the fanning washers will distribute the force over a larger area).

Plain and simple question, does the first drawing in the beginning of this thread work the way it says it works?  If it does not, then why.  If it does then please someone must have verified this.  It will save me alot of time having to go back and retrace people's steps.

Thanks,
Charlie

See this video
Hope this helps,
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on May 30, 2009, 07:20:58 AM
So from the video, there is a great difference in reluctance from when the washers are closed verses when they are open.  The claim at the beginning of this thread is wrong and that moving the washers into the field when they are closed is much weaker from when they are allowed to open.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on May 30, 2009, 06:09:44 PM
So from the video, there is a great difference in reluctance from when the washers are closed verses when they are open.  The claim at the beginning of this thread is wrong and that moving the washers into the field when they are closed is much weaker from when they are allowed to open.
Yes, but it works out that is great for the design that has the washers in sliding contact when moving back together. It adds a second overunity element to the design.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on May 31, 2009, 02:30:44 AM
That's a very interesting design but I don't like how you have to pull it apart.  There has to be a better solution.  I can't think of anything at the moment though.  :(
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Butch LaFonte on May 31, 2009, 03:10:34 AM
That's a very interesting design but I don't like how you have to pull it apart.  There has to be a better solution.  I can't think of anything at the moment though.  :(
Pull what apart???? The elements (washers) repel each other and work can be done with that repulsion force.
I have rotary designs on this principle on the web also.
Butch
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Charlie_V on June 01, 2009, 05:50:32 AM
In the video you show the washers in contact with two pieces of iron.  You pull the iron away from the washers.  But nevermind I get it, pretty cool indeed.

Charlie
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: poplianil on March 04, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
Have a look at thi

A good site hosted on A just got removed the authors were Magluvin and second Gotoluc.

A long vortex coil coil with twin windings are shown and generate good result yet small unlike 2SGEN nicely made by Naudin.  http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm
My idea would be to:

Using a one metre soft iron wire wound with a copper winding all along and then made into a spiral should become an ideal wall between two magnets and a coil to generate a variable magnetic field in a coil to generate current. passing a square wave at high frequeny will give great results like Naudin should work and setup will be cheap.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: ramset on March 04, 2010, 03:00:15 PM
Pops
What are you saying about removed on "A"??

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Groundloop on March 04, 2010, 03:23:05 PM
@ramset,

thi = this

Both sites are up and running. (Gotoluc and Magluvin).

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
Post by: Hope on August 31, 2010, 07:55:20 AM
This idea seems so under appreciated.   This plate separation method shows us a possible way Ed Leeds... moved all that coral alone.   Don't stop on this device, maybe it will lead you to stacking magnetic charges or something important like that.  Beside it seems a simple way to cancel emf, and even drive out (flux) charges from any item and if you only allow the charges to be collected on plates then we can get that machine we all want.
Title: TRANSDUCTOR....and "Orb.....".....
Post by: newton2 on February 21, 2011, 05:48:22 PM
dato 2011-02-21    Hi.......!

The Past Technics Times of the TRANSDUCTOR......interesting Litteratures.....even also such TRANDUCTOR-Methods show properties like the "Mythologically Promised dynamical parametrical" Properties of a surden "Orb............"......!

still are Elder Technical Litteratures concerning Principles of TRASUCTORS....and even in Present Times of All-Electronics-ruling-the-World" are surden TRANSDUCORS still in practics......!

WKR