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Author Topic: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !  (Read 201847 times)

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2008, 12:01:57 PM »
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz

All good points Wiz, squares or rectangles will definitely be best.

Also we need to keep the steel only within the parallel field flux path. Once we move into the bulging field (mag edges) then I think you get crosstalk between the forces, i.e. the magnets begin to see the seperating steel forces.

Also I think the best permanent magnet design may be where the magnets only move toward and away from each other thus increasing and reducing the flux density between them. The steel plate stack is then placed in this varying flux path and the alternating seperation force may then be harvested for free and/or fed back to the magnet moving mechanism to give a self runner. This would be best design because flux line cutting and thus eddy current losses will be minimised. It's a close mechanical analogy to the solenoid electrical solution.

Yucca.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline rha8b

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2008, 12:55:03 PM »
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz

Hello all, I know I'm new here (and especially to this thread), however just wanted to confirm what wizkycho stated above, circular washers are indeed not as good as quadratic shaped ones. I did a bench test to replicate the basic repulsion effect and noticed this almost immediately.

Keep up the valuable research,
-rha8b

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2008, 01:33:30 PM »
What wizkycho just said makes a lot of sense. The only small problem is finding square "washers" :p.

Yup, can't buy them off the shelf but you can buy square steel nuts, but then you also don't want a hole in the middle. I will soon have an old washing machine to scrap for parts, I will be using a dremel wheel to cut nice strips and squares out of the steel chassis parts. May also get a couple of nice iron core solonoids, don't know what voltage they take yet though?

Yucca.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2008, 01:33:30 PM »
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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2008, 05:47:19 PM »
This is to confirm what "Yucca" said in post 149.   If you guys are to understand that the cogging
forces or torques are irrelevant if they are equal for collapsed and expanded states you must
have some math background in calculus and understand the process of integration. 

Integration is the calculation of the area under a curve.  The torque curves or force curves for
this effect with regard to the forces of attraction to the steel plates or elements of the active
structures are the same for collapsed and expanded states.  So you have one side that
is a POSITIVE X area and the exit side a NEGATIVE X area.  The average of those as a simple
algebraic sum is zero.  X - X = 0  Therefore the cogging torques or forces fall out or cancel out
of the total net force or torque equation.  These forces are only a consideration for vibration and the
need for special structures strong enough to handle those forces.   But that's just engineering
and does not negate the main principle for development of high efficiency motors of various kinds.
There are ways to cancel the vibrational aspects as well and totally cancel the cogging forces
by always keeping them in balance or perfectly cancelled at all times. 

Cheers,
Dave Squires

Butch

  • Guest
Re: Future improvements
« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2008, 08:34:38 PM »
Yucca,
Great progress you are making. As with so many inventions this will continue to be optimized for hundreds of years to come. It's the original invention that is the hard part. It will be interesting to see the improvements when it gets to the big labs and universities. I also wonder what will be found using a super computer. At the moment it is for the most part only known by the overunity list which is only about .0000000001 % of the population. It will be interesting to see optimizations and improvements that develop when it becomes common knowledge with the general public. It's going to be fun watching this evolve. I'm so lucky to have seen the overunity potential in the sheet metal fanner magnets I used as a young man.
Great job your doing,
Butch LaFonte
The LaFonte Group
Birmingham, Alabama

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Future improvements
« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2008, 08:34:38 PM »
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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2008, 09:34:09 PM »
This is in response to "derricka" post 145 quoted below:

"Dave, thanks for sharing these drawings. Seeing a diagram of your magnet motor, many years ago, on jlnlabs.org is what got me started in doing my own magnetic experiments, so I give you full credit. Though I'm sure you are up to your eyeballs in patents and non disclosures, I know many of us here would be interested in a history of your work, and some of your earlier devices.  Anything you are willing to provide, here or elsewhere, now or later, is much appreciated."

Well, I am NOT up to my eyeballs in patents and NDA's.  That would be nice if I were.
As for a history of my work...there's not much to tell except running thousands of simulations on
hundreds of ideas that don't or won't work.  I have a few things in the hopper that do or will work, but those
I have to keep quiet until I prove them on the bench. All of that work has been an exercise in learning
mostly what won't work.  That is valuable information in itself as now I don't bother spinning my
wheels in areas that I know have no chance of working or are just not practical.  e.g. Joseph Newman's
motors...who needs a 1000lb machine that is OU by 3% and outputs 100 watts extra power.
It just isn't practical.  There are other examples that are 3% to 5% OU (COP = 1.03 to 1.05).
They are useless in my book.

As an example of a more standard design, I have designed and simulated a more standard
AC generator that has the highest power density possible.  It has standard drag, but is about a tenth
the size of an equivalent typical design.   Imagine a generator about 22" diameter and 16" long with
an RMS output capacity of 604KW at 110VAC rms.  Copper loss is 10.8KW rms or 542 watts/turn rms
at a peak load current of 7769 amps.   A typical generator of this output capacity would be 10x bigger.

Other high efficiency motors I have looked at are capable of COP values of 2 to 10. 
Compared to what I am looking at now those are "throwaway" technologies.
They have their uses and perhaps I can develop them someday.  But when you are broke that's
hard to do.   So I have to focus on the simplest and most robust methods with the highest
efficiencies possible to guarantee success. 

I have been optimizing this orthogonal field constant reluctance solenoid technology for a year now
and have applications that are way ahead of everyone else on this forum.  Those are my inventions
and I have to keep them under wraps to insure they get out to the world. So I won't be revealing
those here.  They need to get into production in practical applications.  This is not the
place to be discussing such sensitive details.  Next year should see significant progress in
that direction.  Coming up with ideas is one thing.  Making them production worthy devices
for specific applications and marketing them is quite another. That takes a lot more work and
a significant amount of funding to make it happen. 

Cheers,
Dave Squires

Butch

  • Guest
Re: Reality check
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »
I caution everyone about getting to excited at this point with this technology. There are no public videos or demonstrations of self running at this time. The claims fall into the endless list of claims of overunity. So far the only overunity proof exist in words only and lack of in person public demostrations is answered by an endless string of excuses. Lets stay in touch with the real world and work toward a self runner and then the party can start. The internet is a good place for talking at a safe distance without having to face the consequences. But that catches up with people in time. I will see to that personally.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reality check
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »
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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #157 on: October 15, 2008, 12:19:53 AM »
In one sense I agree with Butch.  Don't get too excited and just get into endless discussions about
whether this will work or not.  Do something instead and build your own tests to prove it.

As for me you won't see any public demonstrations from my side.  I don't have to prove this to
anyone else nor do I want to attract the wrong kind of attention.  I don't want any public attention or to be
on the six o'clock news or YouTube like so many other blowhards that really have nothing of substance.

But I would encourage you to go do your own bench tests, simulations or whatever. 
I have done mine already.  I know this works and have explained it here in enough detail
that those in the know would know I am right.  Anyone really competent in magnetics,
electronics, and physics would know right away that a system that shows no change in inductance
or has equal area torque or force profiles for entry and exit phases while generating a force
at right angles to the motion has to work with very high efficiency.  There is no doubt.

What we don't need are these kinds of veiled threats and mean spirited words such as just posted by Butch.

"The internet is a good place for talking at a safe distance without having to face the consequences. But that catches up with people in time. I will see to that personally."  

You don't need to believe me or Butch.  Ignore both of us and go do your own work to prove it to yourself.
You all have enough information to do the work.  I will not be posting to this forum any longer. There's no need now.

Also, I have no need or desire to read such contentious threatening nonsense as Butch just posted.
You might want to ask yourselves why he would feel the need to write such threatening words
and poison the whole discussion.  I am wondering myself what he is so bothered about that he would say
such things.  I am shaking my head in disbelief and disgust.

Good Bye and Good Luck,
Dave Squires


Offline tak22

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #158 on: October 15, 2008, 12:30:25 AM »
@Dave

Thank you for coming here and sharing enough to get us inspired,
and in enough detail for us to get on with it ourselves.

tak

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #158 on: October 15, 2008, 12:30:25 AM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #159 on: October 15, 2008, 12:32:23 PM »
Still having trouble seeing how the seperation of a few washers is going to produce 50 times
the input energy...

Since Wizkycho apparently can't or won't explain that,
perhaps Yucca, Dave or Butch could explain it?

All I see you guys talk about is a method to remove an attracted magnet
from the washer stack by replacing it with another magnet, thereby
minimalising the energy input needed to move the magnet out of
its attraction position...
But how do the washers produce the 5000% output?

Or is it "just" a variation of the LaFonte Equilibrium effect, "just" serious decrease
of the magnetic "drag"?
So that the resulting motor doesn't experience nearly as much drag, and thereby
behaves much more efficient than a "normal" motor?
Is that the big breakthrough?

Because with all the focus on the washers I got the impression that you were
actually saying the washer effect itself was responsible for the 5000% OU...
???

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2008, 01:28:09 PM »
Hi all and koen !

1. magnetism from permanent magnet is free and can do work for thousend years (it is proven !!! at least with magnetic transistor experiment...and many other exp.), isn't that so koen1 ? (this is something "science" do not wan't to know. Magnetic tranzistor should be in schools allready
,it is a real natures phenomenon and behaviour)

2. now, moving magnet on principle of equilibrium or balance (see my simple gif animation at replay 89 - this topic) - requires
very little energy to overcome only real friction of mechanics. this friction energy, if setup is moving at same speed,
is constant no matter how much magnets you use.

3. strenght of fanner movement is proporcional (linear) with strenght of free flux (point 1)

so energy at point 2(INPUT) is always much much lower then energy of 3(OUTPUT), no matter how much you multiply output (you can put 100 NdFeB magnets) and get only 30% of that energy through fanners and you will already have 30:1 for output team and you don't have to wory 'bout that load(weight) on output will dissrupt setup and make it underunity - like lenz can and does.

Many tests need to be done to establish how much exactly fanners can extract from given field strenght and what are the best conditions
and dimmensions to get maximum percentage (blue) from fanners, but allready 50:1 is not so hard to imagine. So you could help allso.

When we establish how much fanners can get, even simpler (less moving parts, no need for balancing) setup can be made using magnetic transistor effect (3-4 times amplification of flux). so fanners should be able to extract at least 50% or more to get 3:1 O:I .....and then "amplify" that setup with another three in branching style and you have 9:1 and so on and on ....easily to get to 50:1....

Wiz

Wiz

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2008, 01:28:09 PM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2008, 02:00:41 PM »
Hi all and koen !

1. magnetism from permanent magnet is free and can do work for thousend years (it is proven !!! at least with magnetic transistor experiment...and many other exp.), isn't that so koen1 ? (this is something "science" do not wan't to know. Magnetic tranzistor should be in schools allready
,it is a real natures phenomenon and behaviour)
What are you talking about "magnetic transistor"? I know of no such thing. Yes, we can guide magnetic flux through a path quite easily,
but that's not the same as a transistor... Do you perhaps also have a "flux capacitor" then? ;)
But yes, permanent magnets can last for hundreds if not thousands of years, depending on what type of permanent magnet you're
talking about. Ferrite magnets are almost eternal, but the new supermagnets like Neodymium based ones are definately not.

Quote
2. now, moving magnet on principle of equilibrium or balance (see my simple gif animation at replay 89 - this topic) - requires
very little energy to overcome only real friction of mechanics. this friction energy, if setup is moving at same speed,
is constant no matter how much magnets you use.
Yes, the magnetic equilibrium principle does work to reduce drag.

Quote
3. strenght of fanner movement is proporcional (linear) with strenght of free flux (point 1)
With "fanner movement" you mean the spreading out of the washers I suppose?
Sure, so the washers seperate when field lines cause them to repel eachother.

But you said we're using the magnetic equilibrium principle and two sets of magnets (or two horseshoe magnets but horseshoes typically
are not permanent magnets so let's say we're using sets of attracting p.m.'s), to cause equal flux exposure of the washers while allowing
us to remove one of the sets... right?
That seems to imply that you're keeping the washers seperated all the time, and just moving the magnets...
How does that produce any movement in the washers?
Surely to make the washers move (seperate, then fall together again, then seperate again, etc), you'll need to have the flux decrease...?
After all, if there is constantly a magnetic field that keeps the washers seperated, there will be no movement of the washers...

So how are you going to extract energy from a bunch of washers that remain seperated all the time?

Quote
so energy at point 2(INPUT) is always much much lower then energy of 3(OUTPUT), no matter how much you multiply output (you can put 100 NdFeB magnets) and get only 30% of that energy through fanners and you will already have 30:1 for output team and you don't have to wory 'bout that load(weight) on output will dissrupt setup and make it underunity - like lenz can and does.
What input? You haven't indicated where you're inputting what. What is your input?
Is it the energy you need to move the magnet sets? And how then does simply moving them generate any output at all? How are you inputting that energy?
And how are you getting energy out of the washers ("fanners") in the first place?
Just making them seperate does not magically turn them into perpetual electricity sources or whatever... ;)

Quote
Many tests need to be done to establish how much exactly fanners can extract from given field strenght and what are the best conditions
and dimmensions to get maximum percentage (blue) from fanners, but allready 50:1 is not so hard to imagine. So you could help allso.
If you would just start with explaining how you think you can extract energy from a couple of seperated pieces of metal at all, that might help.
Because it's not the magnetic equilibrium principle that I don't get, it's simply that I just don't follow how you think energy will spontaneously
flow from a few seperated pieces of metal, that's the part I don't follow.
Is it so hard to understand that, to talk about energy extraction at all, we need to have a viable method of actually collecting energy?
That's what I still haven't seen described...
And that's why, in my very first post, I asked if I had missed something.
Now please, if you want to lecture me, explain that to me first, before you start yapping about hypothetical output increases.
First tell me where you're getting your output.

Quote
When we establish how much fanners can get, even simpler (less moving parts, no need for balancing) setup can be made using magnetic transistor effect (3-4 times amplification of flux). so fanners should be able to extract at least 50% or more to get 3:1 O:I .....and then "amplify" that setup with another three in branching style and you have 9:1 and so on and on ....easily to get to 50:1....
Ok, so now I get where you got your ratio. Now explain where you extract the energy, please.

Offline Yucca

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2008, 02:06:16 PM »
Still having trouble seeing how the seperation of a few washers is going to produce 50 times
the input energy...

Since Wizkycho apparently can't or won't explain that,
perhaps Yucca, Dave or Butch could explain it?

All I see you guys talk about is a method to remove an attracted magnet
from the washer stack by replacing it with another magnet, thereby
minimalising the energy input needed to move the magnet out of
its attraction position...
But how do the washers produce the 5000% output?

Or is it "just" a variation of the LaFonte Equilibrium effect, "just" serious decrease
of the magnetic "drag"?
So that the resulting motor doesn't experience nearly as much drag, and thereby
behaves much more efficient than a "normal" motor?
Is that the big breakthrough?

Because with all the focus on the washers I got the impression that you were
actually saying the washer effect itself was responsible for the 5000% OU...
???

Hi Koen,

Provided the output force does not directly couple to the input forces then the actual OUT:IN ratio obtainable is only limited by the exact design and production quality.

See the hypothetical device below.

The big flywheels are geared together and are driven from an exernal source like a small electric motor. The mechanism causes the mags to reciprocate along free guides like linear bearings.

It would only require small energy input only to overcome friction, because the magnetic forces exerted by the magnets are symetrical:

As the magnets are going together the attraction forces will speed the flywheels up.
As the magnets are going apart the attraction forces will slow the flywheels down.
However because the forces are symmetrical the flyhweels average speeds will not be affected by the magnetic forces.
The flywheel mechanicaly integrates all of the forces over time. The energy within the flywheel remains pretty constant, only losing a little to friction.

So to mantain a constant speed the flywheels will have to be fed only enough power to overcome friction. Put the apparatus in a vacuum and use very free bearings and this input power can be got REAL low. We will call this average input power requirement X Watts.

Now the seperating washers will produce an up force as they seperate, you could use this to raise a weight using ratchet or produce electricity with mag and coils etc. We will call the average output power of the sytem Y Watts.

COP = Y/X

I don't know the origins of the 50/1 figure, maybe just a guess?

Note:
My only doubts about the effect at the moment is that the input sees the output more than we think. For myself I will have to verify physically that the effect yields COP>1.

Yucca.

Offline ramset

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2008, 02:49:38 PM »
Yucca did you look at Erhfinders web site http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/home_1.html In his news section is a video of something similar and running
      Chet

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2008, 03:16:03 PM »
koen1!

1.http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2222.msg130730#msg130730
and many other experiments.
don't be affraid to call it Magnetic transistor, this is new component to "real science" - it exists and it should be called like that cause emidiately one knows that small magflux input yields (3 - 4 times) stronger field at output.
Can it make work is another question ? but allso has been proven it can.
Permanent magnet is flux capacitor, only differnce is it is allmost Infinite. (so I still wouldn't call it that way)
We all know what magnetic resistor is and how it is made.
We can allso make magnetic diode.

Magnetic transistor can not work without filled capacitor (or battery) - just like transistor can't. the difference is magnet is Infinite,current battery and capacitors are not. soon we will have magnetic schematics of some device.

If you do not admitt to yourself magnetic transistor (or call it what you like) effect exists and that it is so, there is nothing left for you to understand. Interesting as hero member you believe in energy amplification (transistor powered by void) but can not believe in magnetic amplification (transistor powered by magnet) !?! why is it so ?

1a. smCo and NdFeB are eternal (but not of the highest grades over 1.5T - still experimental) allso, if not overheated, overMechaniclyAbused, overCounrterPolarised, chemically unprotected, overXraied, overRadiated. have other infos about this ?

2. OK

3. One magnet pair is spaced from another magnet pair by width of rectangular washer. Fanner(washer stack)s are 1mm spaced one from another. magnet pairs are same width as fanners.
So every other fanner is overlaped with one magnet pair at a time.

Since there are washers (at same distance) all the way magnet travels with no stky points no drag back no foreward attraction. Just friction.
and if speed of their movemet is same mechanical input is constant and is low.

4. input needed to overcome only mechanicall friction (bearings etc.)

5. one(first) fanner is fixed and mech energy is extracted from last nonfixed

6. conversion of linear mech energy to electrical using linear permanent magnet-coil arrangement.

Wiz
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 03:44:54 PM by wizkycho »

 

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