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Author Topic: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !  (Read 204890 times)

Yucca

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2008, 01:55:11 PM »
I did a test using neo mags with steel washers (of which may have become saturated in the strong magnetic field).  My test was just to see how much force there was between the washers.  To my suprise, there was very little.  The atrraction force of the neo's to the washers was much greater than the seperation force between the washers.  How does one intend to seperate the magnets from the washers if the attraction is so much greater?

Do not worry about the attraction force of the mags to the washers, yes it is alot greater than the washer seperation force but it does not matter, the magnets can be attached to a rigid frame so the force will not have an effect. Or if you do want to seperate the mags in a cyclic manner then the attraction forces will be symetrical and thus sum to zero over a complete in/out cycle. The small seperation force of the washers may be for free though.

drsquires

• Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2008, 07:10:38 PM »
Pay attention to "Yucca".
He understands how this principle works.
He has it right. Good job Yucca.  Keep up the good work.

You guys are getting on the right track to fully understanding this principle
and it's significance.  FYI....I did careful measurements some time ago
on the forces for collapsed and expanded states on 1" diameter laminated
steel disks.  I verified that for the setup used the forces were equal to within
2%, which could be measurement error.  The expansion force measured was about 7.5lbs
in the collapsed state for 4 element stack and a "throw" of about one inch.
The magnets used were N45 NdFeB 1/4" thick with a steel flux return path for
maximum flux density in the gap.  The steel disks were M19 non-grain oriented
and the gap between the magnets was about   1.5 inch with the disks in between.
I used a digital scale to measure the force generated by the torque and then
factored in the change in moment arm or lever arm length.  Doing the math
gave nearly equal force (within 2%) for collapsed and expanded states.
This was a measure of the "cogging" forces to prove that they would integrate
to nearly zero since they would be essentially equal.  The torques will also
integrate to zero for entry and exit cogging.  The reason is that even though
the moment arm changes the angle of rotation also changes to keep the total
integrated torque equal for entry and exit cases.  Hence, the torques will also
integrate to a zero average leaving the expansion force to keep a motor running.
The attractive cogging forces or torques zero out of the result.  The resetting
of the stack must happen after the magnets have moved away.  Then all it
takes is to overcome their mass inertia to set them back to the starting point.
That makes a reciprocating system self-limiting for speed, which is a good thing.

Regards,
Dave Squires

Butch

• Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #137 on: October 13, 2008, 07:29:18 PM »
Thanks Butch,
Have you built anything like this yourself?
Yes, but I want to have this a blind test for people doing it.
We also have done a test for the coil powered version using a scope.
Will post.
Regards,
Butch

drsquires

• Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #138 on: October 13, 2008, 07:37:05 PM »
This is a response to "carbonc_cc" and his weak result.

There is a strong correlation between the flux density in the gap between the magnets
and the saturation flux density in the ferrous elements used and their thickness.
Thin wafer-like or washer-like elements will create a relatively weak force.  Ferrites saturate at about 0.5 tesla
so it is not a good candidate for practical applications.

Use steels that saturate at 1.5 tesla or higher and you will more than triple the force.
Also the force occurs only on the end elements.  Any elements in between are "floaters" that
move to zero force positions.   Try thicker steel sections and stronger magnets with
keeper straps to maximize the flux density in the gap.   You will see weak forces
if you don't provide a flux return path for the magnets.  This has a huge effect.

I have shown that with large structures that you can generate hundreds of pounds of force
with strokes up to 6 inches or more.  Just imagine what can be done with an initial expansion
force of 600lbs!!  Keep going guys.  I want you to do your own
independent experimental verifications and come up with other ideas to put this to good use.

Regards,
Dave Squires

AbbaRue

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #139 on: October 13, 2008, 08:15:25 PM »
So am I understanding this right?
The attractive force between the horseshoe magnet and washers equals out when using two or more units.
As one horseshoe magnet is brought close to the washers the magnetic attraction between the magnet
and the edge of the washers pulls the other horseshoe magnet away from the other set of washers.
Sort of like 2 elevators connected together so as one goes up the other goes down.
Then the energy from the separating washers is free.

373bmc

• Newbie
• Posts: 2
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #140 on: October 13, 2008, 08:46:35 PM »
Just a quick thought here guys.. There 2 sources of energy available here.. The seperation stroke, and the resultant potential created in the mass raised.. Capture both.

Butch

• Guest
Re: How to increase repulsion force between elements?
« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2008, 08:52:00 PM »
I am posting to our web page simulations and force charts of the moving elements divided into segments. We got force increases as high as 16 times and possibly 32.
Will test in real world situation to verify.
Thanks,
Butch

drsquires

• Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #142 on: October 13, 2008, 10:55:01 PM »

The answer is not quite.  The idea is that if you move the magnets to a point close
to the stack of steel elements, washers or otherwise, you will reach a point of maximum
attractive force.  If you hold the stack clamped and measure the attractive force and
then let them expand and measure the attractive force again those two force measurements will
be equal.  Therefore in a rotating system or even a linear one if the entry and exit attractive
forces, (pull-in and pull-back) are equal they will average out to zero.  So those "cogging"
forces fall out of the total force equation and you are left with only the expansion force.
THAT is what comes for free.  The expansion force and movement of the elements has NO EFFECT
on the attractive cogging forces.  The expansion force is isolated due to it being at right angles to
the attractive cogging forces.

The requirements are that the volume of ferrous material in the gap must remain constant
and the gap distance must also remain constant.  Also, the steel elements must not
move out of the field region (artificially induced gap change).   Luckily, they can't move out because
they will only move to where the force drops to zero and stop.  It's self-regulating in this regard.

There is no worry about "defeating Lenz" either.  There is no Lenz effect to be concerned about because
the inductance in an EM version won't change.  The only possible way this can bite you is if you
use non-laminated steel with moving magnets or changing fields.  Then you will induce Lenz based
eddy currents in the steel that will cause drag or eddy current losses heating the steel.  But that
would be bad design in the first place.  Don't use solid steel sections except for static force measurements.

I hope the rest of you are finally understanding this concept.  "Yucca" gets it now.  This effect can
be harnessed to do incredible things once you understand it.  I have done a lot of optimization
work on it over the past year.  I would like to see you guys go through the same process
as a means of independent verification.

Cheers,
Dave Squires

Butch

• Guest
Re: Link for simulations and force table of segmented moving elements
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2008, 12:29:36 AM »
I am posting to our web page simulations and force charts of the moving elements divided into segments. We got force increases as high as 16 times and possibly 32.
Will test in real world situation to verify.
Thanks,
Butch

Here is the link for the simulations, open the force table in MS Word.
http://www.fdp.nu/shared/manager.asp?d=files\ButchLaFonte\Perpendicular%20Magnetics\Force\
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

drsquires

• Guest
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #144 on: October 14, 2008, 01:53:00 AM »
To get the point across on how powerful this effect can be since Butch posted the wimpy
simulation results and very suboptimal structures I will post one simulation result of a better
structure to get you guys going the right direction.

This simulation uses M19 steel with 7 large segments that would be 4 inches deep and 3 inches high.
The gap on each side to the magnets is 0.25 inch. The magnets are N45 NIB.
The total stroke would be about 8 inches in this example.
The force developed at the starting point shown here is just over 390lbs or 1738 newtons.
Again the magnetic forces of attraction would be much larger, but is of
no consequence if proper design is used to manage and cancel those forces.

Enjoy,
Dave Squires

derricka

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 156
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2008, 06:43:33 AM »
Dave, thanks for sharing these drawings. Seeing a diagram of your magnet motor, many years ago, on jlnlabs.org is what got me started in doing my own magnetic experiments, so I give you full credit. Though I'm sure you are up to your eyeballs in patents and non disclosures, I know many of us here would be interested in a history of your work, and some of your earlier devices.  Anything you are willing to provide, here or elsewhere, now or later, is much appreciated.

AbbaRue

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2008, 07:31:52 AM »
@drsquires:
I know the problem with all the magnetic motor concepts in past is always that last magnet in the circle. (SMOT)
It always takes more power to past that last magnet then the power accumulated while moving around the circle.
I don't see how this is any different. The closer you get to the edge of the washers the stronger the attractive force
between the magnets and the edge of the washer. So to move away from the edge of the washers is going to take
greater force then the attractive force between the edge of the washers and the magnet.
Or you won't be able to pull the magnet away from the washers.
If you don't pull the magnet away from the washers then the stack of washers won't collapse for the next cycle.
I understand the expansion of the washers is free energy.
But to make them separate you have to move the horseshoe magnet into close proximity to them.
And then to cause them to collapse again you have to move the horseshoe magnet away from them again.
To move the horseshoe magnet away from the washers will take a certain amount of force.
This force is not free, it has to come from somewhere. So were is this force coming from?
This is why I mention using 2 units so the attractive force of one is the pulling away force needed for the other.
Or am I missing something important here?
I have a Perm.Magnet style motor here that I can spin by hand so it works as a generator.
But even with no load at all across it, I find it very difficult to turn by hand because of the strong attraction of the PM's.

To sum up my question: How do you balance the system to eliminate this force?
Are there generators out there that have no magnetic resistance to turning them without a load on them?
Could you draw up some form of diagram?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:59:25 AM by AbbaRue »

wizkycho

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 466
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2008, 09:44:05 AM »
Hi all !

Quadraticaly shaped washers are must !!!
- Round washers wan't work cause they are close to magnets only In two points . that point cause of very small surface emidiately saturate and can not conduct enough flux. so don't make experiments with rounded washers. Much more force will be produced if quadratics are used cause much more flux will pass through them and allso repel one on another with gretaer surface. Whole edge (quadratic) is close to magnet and recives flux, not just one point (rounded).

- quadratic washers allso balance whole setup. magnets easily leaves washer stack cause they are already attracted to another washer stack.

if missed - read posts 89 and 115 see the animation (post 89). It reveals everything the way it should be done -  magnets easily move from one stack to other, if rounded are used it is not so.

before proceeding any further You must understand this.

Wiz

broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2230
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2008, 11:09:43 AM »
What wizkycho just said makes a lot of sense. The only small problem is finding square "washers" :p.

Yucca

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !
« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2008, 11:52:23 AM »
@drsquires:
I know the problem with all the magnetic motor concepts in past is always that last magnet in the circle. (SMOT)
It always takes more power to past that last magnet then the power accumulated while moving around the circle.
I don't see how this is any different. The closer you get to the edge of the washers the stronger the attractive force
between the magnets and the edge of the washer. So to move away from the edge of the washers is going to take
greater force then the attractive force between the edge of the washers and the magnet.
Or you won't be able to pull the magnet away from the washers.
If you don't pull the magnet away from the washers then the stack of washers won't collapse for the next cycle.
I understand the expansion of the washers is free energy.
But to make them separate you have to move the horseshoe magnet into close proximity to them.
And then to cause them to collapse again you have to move the horseshoe magnet away from them again.
To move the horseshoe magnet away from the washers will take a certain amount of force.
This force is not free, it has to come from somewhere. So were is this force coming from?
This is why I mention using 2 units so the attractive force of one is the pulling away force needed for the other.
Or am I missing something important here?
I have a Perm.Magnet style motor here that I can spin by hand so it works as a generator.
But even with no load at all across it, I find it very difficult to turn by hand because of the strong attraction of the PM's.

To sum up my question: How do you balance the system to eliminate this force?
Are there generators out there that have no magnetic resistance to turning them without a load on them?
Could you draw up some form of diagram?

Hi AbbaRue,

I'm not Dave Squires but I wanted to reply to you question.

I'm only just beginning to work with this effect, it took me a while to see the potential magic in this effect, because as you say the attraction of the steel to the mags seems to overshadow the seperation force of the steel. You could try this simple experiment to prove to yourself that cogging in this purely attraction mode system will sum to zero force:

Take a free spinning wheel and attach one small steel washer on its side to it. Have the washer move through two attracting neo poles as it spins. The attracting pole unit should be secured rigidly to the baseboard. Now spin the wheel, the wind down time will be nearly the same as if the magnets aren't there (only difference will be eddy current losses as washer passes magpoles). The cogging is there: the wheel experiences a small speed up as the washer  is attracted to the magnets, the wheel then experiences a small slow down as the washer pulls away from the magnets. This speed up slow down force distribution is symmetrical, it sums to zero so the average angular velocity of the wheel stays the same.

Best, Yucca.